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maximvsv
10-30-2007, 03:11 PM
If you were learning... say medicine, and I said "well, I have no special medical knowledge, but I'm sure I can learn it at a much faster rate than you, and therefore be in a position to teach you although we are essentially learning at the same time and you are in a classroom environment, while I'm just reading your textbooks" I think you would my assumption of superiority condescending.

I think that the point to Phil's position is that both of them know that he can learn it at a much faster rate than she can, especially if there's a language barrier involved, even where there is no direct overlap of fields. If it's true, and both are aware of it from the beginning, then it is neither arrogant nor a mere assumption.

Jenny
10-30-2007, 03:59 PM
Now I have a convenient out: "I'd like to, but a dancer told me it's condescending. I'm not going there anymore." I'll still suggest buying a used teacher's edition of the text from Amazon. I'll share thoughts about scoping out a course, book and teacher, but that's my limit.
Look, like I already said; I'm not running your life. I'm telling you that it is condescending to assume that you are in a position to teach someone in a classroom learning environment something you have no expertise in. I'm stating a fact. You take from that what you will.


Jenny, I don't recall writing a TR in the past six months, so maybe you're using Search to find hair pulling. Whatever works for you. And yes, I've done it in college library stacks during study breaks.
No. I just remember being treated, endlessly, to such tidbit in practically every post you make. It's not a criticism, Sporty. It's part of what makes you you.

Just understand that I never pull red hair. It's too thick. :-\Um. Okay... drat, there go my vacation plans? Dude you know I would never let you touch me except in exchange for money, and I'm about 10 years too old for you - really hair is not even on the agenda. And I don't even know what smiley to put here - but try laughing my butt off and completely confused at the same time. /:O;D Maybe that'll do it.

Why - why is everything I say so damn contentious? I just want to get along with you guys.

FBR
10-30-2007, 05:07 PM
^^ Jenny your question may have been rhetorical. Or perhaps asked out of pure frustration. But I have observed over time that when folks respond to your posts (and, like it or not, your posts do generate many responses) the posters, it seems to me, put forth a genuine effort to present reasonable and clearly stated arguments even if those arguments don't meet your standards and you are able to de-construct and sometimes refute them. I believe your comments naturally generate those sort of responses. I'm seeing you as providing (tying in with some of the more recent posts) a valuable tutoring service to the board. I know that when I respond to one of your posts, I strive to post succinctly, more so than when I respond to other members. I appreciate the challenge that you throw down.

FBR

bem401
10-31-2007, 06:26 AM
Well Jenny, maybe you can show me (and others) the light.

What is the appropriate response if a dancer I am friendly with is telling me she is struggling in a class in which she is enrolled? Keep in mind that these girls know my background when they mention their predicament. Do I say " I'd offer you some help but I don't want you to think I'm offending you by doing so"? It's not like I am running around from girl to girl offering tutoring at all. It seems to me the girl is trying to give me a chance to offer.
I liken it to a situation where I might mention to one of my golf buddies (whose abilities I respect ) that I am struggling with my game. What I am really saying is " hey, I need your help ". Otherwise I'd say nothing.

bem401
10-31-2007, 06:32 AM
Oh and Bem, its me that calls you a douchebag, not Jenny. I gladly take credit for the name calling, considering I don't believe a thing that comes out of your keyboard.

I'm well aware of that ( after all, if it weren't for name-calling, what would your contribution be? ) but she was there cheering you on and she worked that word into her posts.

xdamage
10-31-2007, 06:53 AM
...maybe you can show me (and others) the light...

As I wrote above, I do see an implied presumption here that the dancers are unable to make good decisions for themselves, which is condescending in and of itself.

Katrine
10-31-2007, 07:19 AM
I'm well aware of that ( after all, if it weren't for name-calling, what would your contribution be? ) but she was there cheering you on and she worked that word into her posts.

I contribute plenty to these boards and have for years. However I have nothing to offer you. Hence you are persona non grata to me.

My studies were not my customers' business. If I was struggling with a subject, it would be a negative to complain about it. And, believe it or not, my role as a stripper was to keep things as positive as possible.

bem401
10-31-2007, 07:38 AM
As I wrote above, I do see an implied presumption here that the dancers are unable to make good decisions for themselves, which is condescending in and of itself.

I don't see what that has to do with my post. I am not presuming anything of the sort. In fact, the dancer has to make it known she needs help for anyone to even be aware of it and offer to help. I respond as I would to any non-dancer who approached me in a similar manner. Furthermore, I would argue that it is a good decision on the dancer's part to seek help when it is needed.

In any event, I don't see how someone's offer of help is condescending and represents a problem whereas someone sitting at the rail with a stack of ones while she writhes around ( nearly) naked for his amusement does not. But then again, I am a douchebag so I doubt I'll get any agreement here.

It seems to me that people are too caught up in the dancer/customer aspect to see it is just one person needing another's help, or one person offering to help another. Of course, I'll include the caveat that if the help is being given in any way, shape, or form to demonstrate the superiority of one party over the other, there is a problem.

bem401
10-31-2007, 07:51 AM
I contribute plenty to these boards and have for years. However I have nothing to offer you. Hence you are persona non grata to me.
Well I don't recall much from you other than daggers thrown at me and others
and kisses blown at Yoda.


My studies were not my customers' business. If I was struggling with a subject, it would be a negative to complain about it. And, believe it or not, my role as a stripper was to keep things as positive as possible.

Well on this we agree. No part of a dancer's private life is any business of any customers unless and until she decides to make it his business. These are the situations I am thinking of as I post. Its not like anyone ( well at least not me ) is approaching a dancer and saying " I think you're stupid. Let me show you how much smarter I am by helping ( or trying to help ) you".

bem401
10-31-2007, 08:17 AM
I know math. I know professors who teach math courses they never took as students. Phil explained how intelligent people learn outside traditional boundaries, develop knowledge and share it. It works. :).

I have taught geometry at the high school level ( or what nowadays passes for high school in this city). I was allowed to skip that course in high school and it wasn't offered at my college. So I had to learn it as I taught it. Teaching it was a challenge but I managed. I didn't enjoy it, but I managed. And in terms of learning outside traditional boundaries, I took a few college classes where I did little more than read the textbooks and take the exams.

Katrine
10-31-2007, 08:25 AM
Well I don't recall much from you other than daggers thrown at me and others
and kisses blown at Yoda.
.

There are othe sections of the site besides this one. I've been here for 4 years. I stripped for 8. My postcount is ridiculous. Is it possible that not each and every one of them is useless?

blows kisses to yoda :-*

bem401
10-31-2007, 08:38 AM
There are othe sections of the site besides this one. I've been here for 4 years. I stripped for 8. My postcount is ridiculous. Is it possible that not each and every one of them is useless?

blows kisses to yoda :-*

I am speaking of active threads. I don't think I have been particularly active here prior to a year ago and admittedly have no interest in reading archived threads. I think it would be safe to assume some of your posts were useful.

xoxoGracexoxo
10-31-2007, 09:10 AM
*groan* WTF happened to my thread? Oh, well. On the up side, I did learn to my fascination how prevalent is the practice of custies tutoring strippers. I had no idea. I think I'm going to start offering to receive tutoring services as an extra in the CR. You choose the topic, and I will be an eager and grateful pupil. Any takers?

Oh, and Jenny: did you overlook where Phil said that his stripper/student was not a native English speaker? I can certainly see how someone with a pre-existing knowledge of a dense technical lingo could at very least help an non-English speaker puzzle their way through the readings for class.

Then again, maybe his dancer IS stupid. Some people are, you know? And I'm sure she could turn down the help if she didn't need or want it, right? I mean, she's a big girl who knows whether or not she needs tutoring. To assume that she needs another, smarter, more empowered stripper to step into the situation and set it to rights would be a bit condescending, no?

Jenny, I think you're awesome and I love to watch you rile the boys up, but I think in this instance you've let yourself be drawn way off base. Shall we go ahead and let this thread die a natural death now? I think it's useful life is over.

xdamage
10-31-2007, 09:13 AM
I don't see what that has to do with my post. I am not presuming anything of the sort. In fact, the dancer has to make it known she needs help for anyone to even be aware of it and offer to help. I respond as I would to any non-dancer who approached me in a similar manner. Furthermore, I would argue that it is a good decision on the dancer's part to seek help when it is needed.


I think you mis-understood me.

What I meant was, that there is an un-state condescending assumption in assuming a customer or man is being condescending by tutoring a dancer. That assumption is that the dancers are incapable of deciding if they are being helped or not. We don't know them. It's not that you are presuming, but that those who assume that customers/men helping dancers are being condescending are basically starting with an assumption of their own, that the dancers being helped aren't capable of deciding for themselves what is and isn't helpful.

I hope that clears that up.

xdamage
10-31-2007, 09:17 AM
Then again, maybe his dancer IS stupid. Some people are, you know? And I'm sure she could turn down the help if she didn't need or want it, right? I mean, she's a big girl who knows whether or not she needs tutoring. To assume that she needs another, smarter, more feminist stripper to step into the situation and set it to rights would be a bit condescending, no?

That is exactly what I meant. We don't know this girl, and sure, possibly she could be as dumb as a door handle, but we just don't know her or anything about her. I'll admit I'm the pessimist but even so, I'll have to assume she is an adult, capable of deciding for herself what is and isn't helpful. To assume she is too stupid to do so and needs intervention on her behalf is, itself, condescending.

jaizaine
10-31-2007, 09:46 AM
Well J, maybe I am basing my responses too much on my experiences, but I have degrees in Applied Math and Economics from a college that I suspect you've heard of, even clear on the other side of the planet. On top of that, I am also a teacher so I frequently find myself being asked for help by friends and former students alike. I never pretend to know more than I do but I am quite capable of helping most anyone in community college or entry-level college courses ( except for languages and stuff ). And the minute I realized its above my pay grade, I'd step aside or look for someone to fill my shoes.



Let me just restate that in none of my posts have I said that I have any problem with the idea of a customer tutoring a dancer. All I meant was that personally, for me, I do not believe it would have been of any benefit. I have a bachelor degree in psychology and a masters in law (as of his week I completed this degree YEY ME) and I believe that at least in my law degree, a layperson's tutoring would have been of no benefit to me. Of course I can see that in certain degrees or courses you could be of help to a person, I was merely saying that personally I know that tutoring would not have helped unless it was from a law graduate or lawyer. You cannot expect to be able to pick up a text book from a given area of law without any legal background and be able to make any sense of it let alone tutor another person on the subject. This is one example where reading a chapter ahead would be of no benefit.

Jenny
10-31-2007, 10:13 AM
I'm well aware of that ( after all, if it weren't for name-calling, what would your contribution be? ) but she was there cheering you on and she worked that word into her posts.
Let's do a poll right now. bem v. Katrine - who has the better contribution to stripperweb?
Offhand - what do you think will happen?

Jenny
10-31-2007, 10:27 AM
*Oh, and Jenny: did you overlook where Phil said that his stripper/student was not a native English speaker? I can certainly see how someone with a pre-existing knowledge of a dense technical lingo could at very least help an non-English speaker puzzle their way through the readings for class.
No. But maybe it's because the exchange/foreign students at my school are unusually bright, that having someone with no expertise in the field would be even more useless than usual. And of course, tutoring someone in ESL is a great deal different than tutoring them in their subject. I mean I'm perfectly capable of teaching a new immigrant nuclear physicist English. But that doesn't mean I can help him with physics. And if we reverse the sexes and take dancers out of it - how absurd would it be for me to offer to teach him physics on the premise that I'm intelligent, I read a lot and I speak better english?


Then again, maybe his dancer IS stupid. Some people are, you know? And I'm sure she could turn down the help if she didn't need or want it, right? I mean, she's a big girl who knows whether or not she needs tutoring. To assume that she needs another, smarter, more empowered stripper to step into the situation and set it to rights would be a bit condescending, no?
Certainly. And like I said - I'm not trying to pass a law in which I can control who tutors whom. I'm informing one poster here, based on what he wrote at the time, that he sounded condescending. And not for nothing, and not accusing anyone of anything but... did you notice that when a man agreed with me, he stepped back and "yeah, I can see how it sounded that way"? Just speaking of ingrained responses to stereotypes and all. I'm not saying anything - I'm just noticing.

Lapaholic
10-31-2007, 10:58 AM
I think the posters are defending their motives and not considering that what Phil was talking about could be construed as condescending. I agree with her on that. Doesnt mean Phil is being a douche, just that it looks that way. Perhaps Jenny puts these critiques in such black and white terms. And of course she digs in and wont budge an inch ..

Just an observation, u guys know her better than I ..

Jenny
10-31-2007, 11:05 AM
I dunno Lap - "Lol, do you even realize how condescending that sounds?" - how far do I need to budge? It's not like I opened with "And you will burn in hell, with strippers poking at you with pitchforks for being the Hitler of the stripclub kingdom."

Lapaholic
10-31-2007, 11:15 AM
True but then in a later post ... u did say he WAS condescending which does imply a bit of douchery. ( WHich means he must defend his honor - u know being british and all ...

Of course I am being condescending right now!!! OMG ..!!! ... To think I can explain your posting being that I have all of 300 and u are way past 6000 posts. Now I am a douche... Damn!!!

Jenny
10-31-2007, 11:22 AM
Well, you know. I didn't want to say anything... but really - you know what? We totally need a douche emoticon.

Lapaholic
10-31-2007, 11:45 AM
Well its now my avatar ... it's official!

salsa4ever
10-31-2007, 06:20 PM
I don't think "condescending" makes any distinction as to the motives of the person in question. I could have the purest intention and still be condescending by giving off the impression that I'm superior. So I'm with Jenny so far...


But what if this student stripper doesn't see it as patronizing, for whatever reason? Put this way, if A is being objectively condescending to B, but B does not see it as condescending behaviour, can a third party observer J still say A is condescending? No harm is done because B doesn't feel patronized, and J wasn't even the target of whatever condescension just took place. Well, sure J could make the (1) observation "A is acting condescendingly" and I couldn't disagree. I think it's different if J makes what amounts to (2) an accusation of condescension that implies the condescension is bad per se and that A should take a good look at himself and how condescending he was. That would be an unjustified attack on what is at most a victimless crime.

Phil-W
10-31-2007, 08:03 PM
Loud groaning noises.....

Look, I can't believe my original throw away remark about staying one chapter ahead would generate such a slanging match. For the record, it's a line from a book by Robert Heinlein - I plagarised it.

I saw Sporty's comment about tutoring dancers; thought, "I do that as well" and thought a comment to that effect would add to the info in this thread. I posted at 1 in the morning UK time without thinking too much about it, and didn't expect a one liner to be endlessly deconstructed.

There's more than an element of truth though. I can log into her universite website cos I've got her password etc. I can get her tutor's lecture notes, and I can download example exam papers, so I know what she's been taught and the questions she's got to answer. So I do stay a chapter ahead of what she's got to revise.


*groan* WTF happened to my thread?

It turned into the battle of the sexes.


Oh, and Jenny: did you overlook where Phil said that his stripper/student was not a native English speaker? I can certainly see how someone with a pre-existing knowledge of a dense technical lingo could at very least help an non-English speaker puzzle their way through the readings for class.

Bingo. It's one of her problems. For example, I know what an aliquot is. She doesn't. When I explained to her it was a sample of specified volume, she understood the half dozen paragraphs that were puzzling her very quickly.


...maybe his dancer IS stupid. Some people are, you know? And I'm sure she could turn down the help if she didn't need or want it, right? I mean, she's a big girl who knows whether or not she needs tutoring.

Stupid she ain't. And doing well on this course is very important to her. And as she's become quite a close friend, her doing well on the course is important to me as well. I tutor her because *she* feels she gets a benefit from it.

Why is this course important to her? Because it's literally life changing. Before it, she was living from day to day. Now, she's mapped out a path for the next 10 years. But she needs good grades to study for the higher degree (PhD) she want's next.


...having someone with no expertise in the field would be even more useless than usual.

I keep posting that I have the chemistry, physics and maths background (and associated degree) that overlaps a substantial part of the knowledge required for the course. Hardly no expertise.

....

And the sad thing about this whole exchange?

I give up a significant part of my time and money - I've put my hand in my pocket to buy textbooks when money's been tight - helping this dancer (and another one studying a different subject).

I help them because they're friends, and they think the help is useful to their grades.

(I kinda think Sporty has the same atitude).

I haven't seen a single comment yet to the effect of "You know, it's nice that one person can find the time to help out another".

Why do we always spend time battling over the negative aspects of this and ignore the positive ones?

Phil.

bem401
11-01-2007, 06:38 AM
Jenny, I posed a question to you in post#102....



Well Jenny, maybe you can show me (and others) the light.

What is the appropriate response if a dancer I am friendly with is telling me she is struggling in a class in which she is enrolled? Keep in mind that these girls know my background when they mention their predicament. Do I say " I'd offer you some help but I don't want you to think I'm offending you by doing so"?

I'm waiting for a response. Tick tock tick tock.........

Jenny
11-01-2007, 10:28 AM
bem - do you seriously think that you are like making incredible points that are defeating me with their potent rationale and cogency? I'm just wondering, because the "tick tock tick tock" seems just ridiculously arrogant considering the weakness of your position. Also, frankly, I think you've strayed into some very inappropriate commentary, and since it is difficult for me as a mod to censure a discussion I'm involved in I opted instead to diffuse the conflict by pulling back.

I didn't answer the question because it was a) not a good question and b) has nothing to do with anything I've said. I've told a customer that I was struggling in a class. If he offered to tutor me, I would have straight out laughed (assuming, of course, that he didn't have expertise in the area). I mean, why would you assume that because someone is having difficulty that you are equipped to fix it for her or that she wants you to fix it for her? I mean your starting point here is just teeming with arrogance. So, unless she asks you for help, I don't see why that response is particularly helpful to either of you. I would suggest, unless you have, you know - some actual indicated ability to help her - that you say "Oh, gosh. That sucks." I mean really. To go back to taking dancers out of the equation - wouldn't you think it would sound ridiculous if I had a customer getting an advanced degree in engineering (keep in mind that there is no "overlap" between my training and engineering) who mentioned that his classes were difficult, and I assumed that a) it was a plea for my tutoring ability and b) that I would be in a position to tutor him based on the fact that I am capable of reading?

As for "learning geometry as you were professionally engaged in teaching it" - how very inadequate your local schools must be. I mean, my schools were inadequate, but at least the teachers were nominally acquainted with the subject matter they were teaching (unless they were short term subs). I mean it sucks that you were in the unenviable position of having to work under those conditions, but surely you can't be advocating that as a standard of competency for teachers?

xoxoGracexoxo
11-01-2007, 10:55 AM
Before long you will speak in a manner that would make a drunken sailor blush. ;)

Something makes you think I don't already possess such a ripe vocabulary? Now THAT's condescending. ;)


I haven't seen a single comment yet to the effect of "You know, it's nice that one person can find the time to help out another.

Well, for what's it's worth, I think it's nice.

The term 'condescension' is being applied pretty broadly here. Is is condescending every time someone offers to help someone else? If we really respected people, would we always assume that they already know how to do everything themselves? Sometimes even smart, capable people need a hand. Sometimes someone is willing to give up their time and money and effort to help them out. That seems like it should be a nice thing. Or, at worst, a harmless thing.

Customers who think they know everything better than us because we're just dumb strippers are drawing a lame stereotype. But so are dancers who assume that all strip-club customers think all dancers are stupid. Enough, already.

I really wish someone would kill this thread. It's useful life is over.

Jenny
11-01-2007, 11:27 AM
The term 'condescension' is being applied pretty broadly here. Is is condescending every time someone offers to help someone else?
I dunno. I think it is being applied pretty narrowly. Like "it is condescending to assume that you are so better able than another person that you are in a position to teach them a subject with which you are (by virture of the other person actually taking a class) slightly less familiar than she is simply because you are able to read." To be that seems pretty specific.


Sometimes someone is willing to give up their time and money and effort to help them out. That seems like it should be a nice thing. Or, at worst, a harmless thing.
A few months ago a customer offered me a job. A menial job. He told me that I would be a valuable addition to his company because I have "charisma". He then went on to explain what charisma meant. Was that nice? Sure. Did it harm me in any way? Absolutely not. Was it condescending? Well, obviously. About a year ago I had this grad student who saw me a few times; one night when he left he said that next time he came in, he'd explain to me all about The Gaze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaze). I laughed and told him that next time he came in I'd explain it to him. Was he nice? Yes, I liked him quite a lot. And again - he didn't harm me in any way. Was that presumptuous and condescending? Yes, of course it was, and he acknowledged that as soon as I laughed. Just because you are well meaning and not evil incarnate does not mean that you are not being condescending.


I really wish someone would kill this thread. It's useful life is over.
Oh. So I shouldn't have just responded to the points you made in this useless thread? Oops. ;)

xdamage
11-01-2007, 11:40 AM
The term 'condescension' is being applied pretty broadly here.

I would add...

I always wince internally once a conversation turns towards the who/what is condescending because invariably the original subject at hand is lost/forgotten, and it becomes a war about who/what is more condescending, was it really condescending, etc., just as this topic turned. Actually it's a great tool to completely derail any heated discussion. If you are losing, simply turn the topic into the other party is being condescending and the original subject matter will be forgotten in short order ;)

And it's one of those points that can completely overshadow that in fact sometimes people actually do know more then each other. Never mind of course that even in this thread, people are talking down to each other; condescension only seems to ring our awareness bells selectively.

Katrine
11-01-2007, 12:18 PM
This thread has taught me the meaning of the word aliquot. Hence it has been very useful to me.

I honestly believe that Phil has good intentions, I always have. He just seems like a nice person. As a "useless contributor" I simply enjoy taking the occasional potshot at him.....

The rest of you (eyes Bem)....suspicious at best....

Phil-W
11-01-2007, 02:37 PM
I honestly believe that Phil has good intentions, I always have. He just seems like a nice person. As a "useless contributor" I simply enjoy taking the occasional potshot at him.....

Why thankee ma'am. I'm honoured to be the target of your potshots. ;)


This thread has taught me the meaning of the word aliquot. Hence it has been very useful to me.

If it goes on much longer it may also disprove the contention that there's no such thing as perpetual motion.

Phil.

lestat1
11-01-2007, 04:05 PM
I took a Computer Science class at a major University and struggled a bit (it was an elective and not my major - lol I know I'm a nerd). The professor later admitted that they pushed a bit too hard for a class that entry-level.

A few years later at a community college where I went after grad school to pick up more technical skills, I took Computer Science I. It just clicked and was really easy for me. I ended up making good money tutoring two classmates. I wasn't even a chapter ahead, I was on the same chapter.

In all fairness I had some experience beforehand, and was much further along in my education than those I tutored, but a classmate can be an excellent tutor to another classmate.

To go back to the OP topic, *shrug* I've never asked for OTC. I sure would like to have an ego large enough to think it worth a try though.

SportsWriter2
11-01-2007, 07:31 PM
I help them because they're friends, and they think the help is useful to their grades.

(I kinda think Sporty has the same atitude).

I haven't seen a single comment yet to the effect of "You know, it's nice that one person can find the time to help out another".
Phil, you and I know it's nice... and fun. I really appreciated learning that you had a similar experience and found it rewarding.

First A, first dean's list, first degree, first professional position (with health care benefits). Priceless moments.

Never let them drag you down, Phil. You know who you are. :)

OdysseusNJ
11-02-2007, 03:35 PM
Am I crazy for wishing sh0t would post in this thread?

UtahMike
11-02-2007, 07:11 PM
Teaching and tutoring well are not dependent on knowledge of the subject as much as they are on finding multiple ways to teach and explain something until you find the way that the student learns. I can teach any academic subject because I am a master teacher. The areas where I cannot teach are those that require a set of skills, such as auto body shop, foods preparation, or a foreign language. There is nothing wrong with staying a chapter ahead of the student in an academic subject.

Some of the best teachers I worked with were teaching out of their area of preparation. For instance, there was a typing teacher who taught one period of 7th grade English. He did an excellent job because he knew he was not skilled in the area, so he spent extra time in study and preparation so that he would not make any mistakes. His students were more interested and produced better work than other students who had teachers with English majors, but who were not as good and not as dedicated as the typing teacher.

Jenny
11-02-2007, 10:17 PM
Yeah, Mike, there is a difference between teaching 7th grade english and teaching in college. Trust me - they are not getting typing teachers to teach university english classes. And yeah - short term subs don't need skills because they are short term subs who aren't expected to make actual progress. However - if it makes you feel better I am perfectly willing to grant that Phil has the requisite skill and knowledge to tutor a dancer who is taking 7th grade english.

I fully believe that there are such things as pedagogical skills - but they are in no way a substitute for actually knowing a subject.

UtahMike
11-02-2007, 11:13 PM
I've taught college, too. Same thing applies, just at a higher level.

The best teachers are not always necessarily the ones who are best versed in a subject. Those folks often just shoot over the heads of their struggling students.
Often, they are teaching something that they understood so quickly and easily that they have no idea how to teach it to someone who does NOT understand it quickly and easily.

At the bottom line, if Phil is tutoring the student and she is learning, he must be doing something right.

Phil-W
11-03-2007, 04:12 AM
Teaching and tutoring well are not dependent on knowledge of the subject as much as they are on finding multiple ways to teach and explain something until you find the way that the student learns.

A very pertinent point.

Me, I'm very patient and if I'm trying to help someone in a one-on-one basis, am quite happy to approach something from several different angles till I can find a way of explaining properly.

Often, the problem is not the student, it's the way the tutor tries to explain the problem.

To me, the satisfaction comes from seeing the light of understanding in someone's eyes. It could be the dancer I mentioned; some years ago it was a neighbours child who was struggling to pass his basic school exams.


The best teachers are not always necessarily the ones who are best versed in a subject. Those folks often just shoot over the heads of their struggling students.

If there's a common thread to the courses I've been asked to help this dancer on, it's ones that are taught by poor tutors. They seem to have poor communication skills and can't get over their ideas to their students.

I personally find the dancer I've mentioned a very likable person, but when she can't understand, sometimes she gets very stressed and irritable. I would imagine her teachers at university find her difficult to deal with in a tutorial. She can get stressed and irritable towards me, but I know her well enough just to smile at her and ignore it. 5 minutes later it's hug and kiss on the cheek (which she can't do with her tutor).

And as I've said, I'm very patient. My goal is to help this dancer with her grades. Accordingly I'll:

(a) Give up my own time in the evening to read through her text books ahead of time.

(b) Spend as long as she wants helping her revise.


I fully believe that there are such things as pedagogical skills - but they are in no way a substitute for actually knowing a subject.

Jenny, I've mentioned I've got a solid background of the principles underpinning what she does. I hate to bring this up, but very few people who meet me ever call me stupid. What I am however is intellectually lazy - I don't generally exert myself unless I am motivated. In this case I am.

Finally, some of her past exam papers have mathematically based questions (and the final answer). If I do the math and get the right answer, I assume I understand that part of the course.

Phil.

miabella
11-03-2007, 05:11 AM
just put me in the camp that doesn't believe you need a degree in a subject to teach it for the vast majority of subjects.

phil, bless his heart, wasn't being condescending. i've been taught by plenty of paid professionals who just stayed a chapter or three ahead. and i learned the topics they were teaching. teaching is not about who's got what degree, not really-- it is about rapport and being able to clarify information for another person's understanding if they have difficulty doing it solo.

but i am digressing and none of the pretty ones are undressing...

Jenny
11-03-2007, 07:17 AM
I've taught college, too. Same thing applies, just at a higher level.

Okay. There you go. Like the situation bem described, I just have a very different experience in the competency of my professors and teachers. My roommate is a course director of a course at the local university. I just asked her if you needed to be competent in a subject to be hired to teach it at her school. She said "What are you talking about? You have to show some demonstrated ability in the subject in order to teach it." I think she thought I was questioning her ability. If any of my professors were "learning as they went" in the school I go to now - well, there is just no way that would happen. If it did, they would be eaten alive by the student body.




The best teachers are not always necessarily the ones who are best versed in a subject. Those folks often just shoot over the heads of their struggling students.

Well, if you're going to say that it is not sufficient to know your subject to be a good teacher, that I can believe and agree with it. It doesn't mean it is not necessary to know your subject.




Jenny, I've mentioned I've got a solid background of the principles underpinning what she does.

Doesn't that indicate "overlap"? So then there is overlap. So you just lied before to start an argument? Why, phil? Why would you do something like that? I'm always so nice to you.




I hate to bring this up, but very few people who meet me ever call me stupid. What I am however is intellectually lazy - I don't generally exert myself unless I am motivated. In this case I am.
Well, I didn't call you stupid either. I said it was that it was condescending to believe that you were in a position to teach a subject that you had no experience in. Now you're telling me that you do have experience in the subjects you are teaching after all. I'm not sure what that means. Does it mean that you agree?

mollyzmoon
11-03-2007, 07:49 AM
I'm just trying to imagine being tutored in French by a non-francophone.

I cannot do so without laughing...

Often times my professors have very little experience in teaching students, and yet I almost always learn quite a bit from them...because they invariably have taken A LOT of school. They have read MANY, many, many books, reviews, journals...have attended conferences, have written books, theses, etc. Even if perhaps they at times aren't up on what's the best method of imparting this knowledge, they almost cannot help but do so.

It's not a matter of reading ahead in whatever text book. Oh my god, if that's all that university was...It's a matter of knowing way, way more than whatever books you've assigned the students to read. When I ask a prof a question, I am assuming that she is drawing on many sources of information...on her experience, that is....to respond.

I don't know you, you guys. Maybe we're not talking about education the same way. I would in fact find it immensely condescending if some customer, who does not have more education in the subject matter than I do, would offer that he could learn it faster and thus help me understand it too!

I mean, maybe that's me being less than humble. But I think I also keep the customer/ dancer relationship on more casual terms...I don't know. This whole discussion reminds me of this guy the other week telling me all about Neitzsche. I said "uhm, he advocated genocide"...the guy denied it, so I paraphrased the exact passage where N. did in fact suggest genocide. The guy said "oh, well, you just don't know...when you read a bit more, you'll understand that book is just taken out of context...I mean, N. was crazy at that point"...me: "Yeah, I know he got syphillis eventually...but I think he stopped publishing at that point"...the guy: "NO!! You don't get it! When you're as smart as N., you simply are crushed beneath the weight of your own genius...his brain simply had no more room, and it exploded!!!"...

me: ".........do you want a dance?"

I mean, I know that dude was an idiot, but it just seems that many people are geniuses in their own minds. And yeah, profs are often very arrogant people as well. But what matters is that they really do know more about what they're saying than I possibly could, given that they have studied the subject matter for years and years...

Whatever though. I think if Jenny did not get through, than neither will I. I just had to share my opinion. I mean, very often I act in wide-eyed wonderment at the opinions of many customers, but I am not serious. I am trying to endear my soft-minded self to the guy who wants to seem like a guru. And then I get dances. But I know you guys can tell the difference.

Katrine
11-03-2007, 11:49 AM
phil, bless his heart, wasn't being condescending. i've been taught by plenty of paid professionals who just stayed a chapter or three ahead. and i learned the topics they were teaching. teaching is not about who's got what degree, not really-- it is about rapport and being able to clarify information for another person's understanding if they have difficulty doing it solo.
.

Good point. I have also taught. I was a technical trainer at the university while studying for my masters. As technology changes, I was often barely a step ahead of the students in learning application revisions and additions to web and design technology. I would prepare for this ahead of time and be able to teach them so they could have guidance.

However, these were fellow students, professors, and uni staff members. And I was paid to do it. So its not exactly the same as volunteering to tutor a hot chick.

SportsWriter2
11-03-2007, 03:21 PM
Jenny, I've mentioned I've got a solid background of the principles underpinning what she does.

Doesn't that indicate "overlap"? So then there is overlap. So you just lied before to start an argument? Why, phil? Why would you do something like that? I'm always so nice to you.
Jenny, you're supposed to be a moderator. Grace had a good motives thread going with interesting self-revelations. Then you hijacked it by belaboring the concept of condescension in tutoring.

Now you're back on the spin-off saying Phil lied. I doubt that anything will dissuade you, but let's try. Suppose Person A is taking Research Methods in Sociology. Suppose Person B has taken Sociology. That's overlap, especially with current text books. Suppose Person B has also taken Statistics. That's background underpinning the research course.

If you have condescension issues, why not start a condescension thread?

Jenny
11-03-2007, 03:35 PM
Well, yes Sporty. And that is why I split the thread. And I will point out that you obviously find the topic at least a little interesting, because, hi.

Technically, I was teasing Phil by saying he lied. It's sad when people's inability to recognize satire expands into an inability to recognize farce. You might want to get that looked at.

You talk about underpinning and overlap like they are mutually exclusive.

Well, this is it. If you would prefer to engage with the original thread it is still there and now that the off topic has been severed, you are certainly free to engage with the self-revelations.

UtahMike
11-03-2007, 06:13 PM
Okay. There you go. Like the situation bem described, I just have a very different experience in the competency of my professors and teachers. My roommate is a course director of a course at the local university. I just asked her if you needed to be competent in a subject to be hired to teach it at her school. She said "What are you talking about? You have to show some demonstrated ability in the subject in order to teach it." I think she thought I was questioning her ability. If any of my professors were "learning as they went" in the school I go to now - well, there is just no way that would happen. If it did, they would be eaten alive by the student body.
At the local university, they are currently advertising for "Adjunct faculty" for English, chemistry, and geology. Adjunct faculty do not necessarily have to have a degree in the subject and are not on a tenure track. They teach up to three undergraduate lower level courses per semester. My former student, who has a degree in physics, has been teaching geology as an adjunct faculty member for about five years now, and she is popular enough as an instructor that her classes always fill. She told me that she has had one undergraduate geology course, and that her knowledge of geology comes from self study. When she gets the infrequent question she cannot answer, she is brave enough to say, "I don't know; I'll find out," and seeks the advice on a faculty member who does have a degree in geology.

Hardly being eaten alive by the student body.

Jenny
11-03-2007, 06:25 PM
Well there you go. If one of my professors had to go consult a real professor, it would not go over well in my school, nor would it possible in any class I've ever taken "to learn as you teach". Like you cannot teach structuralism without being familiar with post structuralism; you cannot teach Germaine Greer without being familiar with Judith Butler; you cannot teach search and seizure without being familiar with arrests and you cannot teach standard of care if you are not familiar with proximate cause. In my classes, in a nutshell, the professors did not have to be geniuses, but they had to know their shit. While professors are not expected to be omnicient, they are expected to be competent. Like I said - different degrees of competence are clearly expected different places.

Although, in a more specific element - isn't geology pretty closely related to physics?

bem401
11-03-2007, 06:30 PM
I'm just wondering, because the "tick tock tick tock" seems just ridiculously arrogant considering the weakness of your position.
Weakness of my position??? These girls have obviously been approaching me for help, because they have ( save for the flakes and the ones who might somehow think this is a good business tactic ) generally accepted my offers of help.



Also, frankly, I think you've strayed into some very inappropriate commentary, and since it is difficult for me as a mod to censure a discussion I'm involved in I opted instead to diffuse the conflict by pulling back.

very inappropriate? huh?


I didn't answer the question because it was a) not a good question and b) has nothing to do with anything I've said. I've told a customer that I was struggling in a class. If he offered to tutor me, I would have straight out laughed (assuming, of course, that he didn't have expertise in the area). I mean, why would you assume that because someone is having difficulty that you are equipped to fix it for her or that she wants you to fix it for her? I mean your starting point here is just teeming with arrogance. So, unless she asks you for help, I don't see why that response is particularly helpful to either of you. I would suggest, unless you have, you know - some actual indicated ability to help her - that you say "Oh, gosh. That sucks." I mean really. To go back to taking dancers out of the equation - wouldn't you think it would sound ridiculous if I had a customer getting an advanced degree in engineering (keep in mind that there is no "overlap" between my training and engineering) who mentioned that his classes were difficult, and I assumed that a) it was a plea for my tutoring ability and b) that I would be in a position to tutor him based on the fact that I am capable of reading?

Jenny, once again you twist facts or invent your own set of conditions. I am not talking about dealing with random strippers I don't know. These are girls I've known for months if not years who know me well enough to know I have advanced degrees in applied-math and economics from one of the top ten schools in the country and that I teach math and they are generally looking for math help. As I said, and you conveniently choose to ignore, I would not offer my help were it in something like language or in a class beyond my abilities. Phil can do as he pleases but I wouldn't offer my help in a class that required me rto do any more than glance at the topic to be tutored to be ready.

As for "learning geometry as you were professionally engaged in teaching it" - how very inadequate your local schools must be. I mean, my schools were inadequate, but at least the teachers were nominally acquainted with the subject matter they were teaching (unless they were short term subs). I mean it sucks that you were in the unenviable position of having to work under those conditions, but surely you can't be advocating that as a standard of competency for teachers?

The schools are woefully inadequate. I wouldn't send a child of mine to any middle or high school in my city under any circumstances. Once again you jump to a conclusion, that I am not qualified to teach the course. I am a fully certified math teacher. By the way, I only skipped geometry so I could take 2 years of calculus in high school and I scored perfectly in math on all my SAT, ACH, and AP exams, so to say I am not nominally aquainted with high school geometry is fairly ridiculous. Nonetheless, I didn't want to teach the class because I didn't want to have to review the minutae in it that isn't of any real value.

Jenny
11-03-2007, 06:50 PM
I am not talking about dealing with random strippers I don't know. These are girls I've known for months if not years who know me well enough to know I have advanced degrees in applied-math and economics from one of the top ten schools in the country and that I teach math and they are generally looking for math help.
Okay. So, how does this affect anything I've said? These new facts clearly set this situation apart from the one I was criticizing. Although, if I may point out, you did not put all those facts in evidence. You did not say that girls were looking for your help, you did not say that it was in a subject that you had familiarity with. You said that they complained that an unnamed class was hard. The problem is not with my twisting facts - I think the problem is with you twisting facts. You said you have a background in math - you make a lot of assumptions for a math guy.


As I said, and you conveniently choose to ignore, I would not offer my help were it in something like language or in a class beyond my abilities.
Not even if you could read a chapter ahead and had exceptional rapport with the student? You mean that familiarity with the subject is a little important after all? Well, a) I think you might have been over extending your abilities a little. But if you weren't, and are tutoring in subjects in which you have some background, and wouldn't tutor in subjects in which you don't have background... why are you arguing with me exactly?

Phil can do as he pleases but I wouldn't offer my help in a class that required me rto do any more than glance at the topic to be tutored to be ready.
So again - why are you arguing with me? It sounds pretty much like you agree with me now. Have I just convinced you, or have you forgotten what you're meant to be arguing?


The schools are woefully inadequate. I wouldn't send a child of mine to any middle or high school in my city under any circumstances. Once again you jump to a conclusion, that I am not qualified to teach the course. I am a fully certified math teacher. By the way, I only skipped geometry so I could take 2 years of calculus in high school and I scored perfectly in math on all my SAT, ACH, and AP exams, so to say I am not nominally aquainted with high school geometry is fairly ridiculous. Nonetheless, I didn't want to teach the class because I didn't want to have to review the minutae in it that isn't of any real value.
Dude - look. I'm not a mind reader. You said that you learned the subject as you were teaching it. You deliberately implied a lack of familiarity because I had said that one required familiarity to teach a subject. Now, of course, you're defending your qualifications, so you are claiming that you do have familiarity. Like I said - you don't care what you are saying as long as you are disagreeing with me. Is all this bitterness just because I don't believe that strippers really like you?

UtahMike
11-03-2007, 07:14 PM
Well there you go. If one of my professors had to go consult a real professor, it would not go over well in my school, nor would it possible in any class I've ever taken "to learn as you teach". Like you cannot teach structuralism without being familiar with post structuralism; you cannot teach Germaine Greer without being familiar with Judith Butler; you cannot teach search and seizure without being familiar with arrests and you cannot teach standard of care if you are not familiar with proximate cause. In my classes, in a nutshell, the professors did not have to be geniuses, but they had to know their shit. While professors are not expected to be omnicient, they are expected to be competent. Like I said - different degrees of competence are clearly expected different places.

Although, in a more specific element - isn't geology pretty closely related to physics?
Are all of those concepts found in lower level, introductory classes, like English 101? That's the sort of class I am talking about.

And NONE of your professors were EVER asked a question they did not have to research before answering? The students must not doing very much original thinking.