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Yekhefah
11-29-2007, 11:04 AM
If Menachem Begin was a terrorist, then so was George Washington. ::)

Jay Zeno
11-29-2007, 11:08 AM
Well, again, in fairness, Yek, George didn't finance his part through extortion and robbery, and he didn't bomb hotels, and he didn't machine-gun civilians to clear them off the land. At least, as far as I know.

LadySoft
11-29-2007, 11:12 AM
I forget where exactly it is in the Bible but it was said that that area will always have turmoil and unrest.

There'll never be peace when it comes to that land. People are hard-headed - especially when religion is involved. blech!

You're right about that!!

Thats due to the mistake Abraham made when he had Ismael first b4 Isaac, who was ordained by God to receive the blessing and inheritance of his father.

All this stems back in the bible. Moses leading his people into the promised land - canaan. Jews have always been displaced from their homeland for the longest. whenever they disobeyed God, they were punished with slavery and war. due to their plight, they lost their homeland and became gypsies;hence, the reason jews were considered, for lack of better term, "homeless."...in as much, anyone thats "homeless" used to have a home b4, but lost it; thereby, resorting to homelessness. it by no means allude that they never owned a home.

Some people don't believe in the bible or koran, whichever their preference is, but that doesn't eliminate it as a valid souce of history to those that believe wholely in or at least, uphold some of the information that lies in them.
The bible has alot of history and the oldest book ever written.

I say if both groups cannnot live in harmony, then there will never be peace. the palestinainas will not pick up their stuff one day and say, "alright!! we'll leave the land for you." they've been residing there for as long as establishing it as theres.

Yekhefah
11-29-2007, 11:16 AM
Well, again, in fairness, Yek, George didn't finance his part through extortion and robbery, and he didn't bomb hotels, and he didn't machine-gun civilians to clear them off the land. At least, as far as I know.

Machine-gunning civilians? Extortion and robbery? Boy, the legends about Begin get better and better every time I hear them! By next year I guess he'll be ass-raping Arab babies and sacrificing kittens at the Western Wall.

Jay Zeno
11-29-2007, 11:19 AM
I agree that biblical texts can have objective historical value, but they're not the oldest book. The I Ching, the Vedas, the Epic of Gilgamesh, Egyptian papyrus texts, all can claim to be as old as, or older than, biblical texts.

Sorry for the off-topic tangent.


Yek, I didn't write that frivolously or happily. I think the activities of the Irgun are pretty well documented along those lines. And for what it's worth, I approve of the Begin/Sadat legacy of the peace, however unsettled at times, between Israel and Egypt.

Eric Stoner
11-29-2007, 12:21 PM
Machine-gunning civilians? Extortion and robbery? Boy, the legends about Begin get better and better every time I hear them! By next year I guess he'll be ass-raping Arab babies and sacrificing kittens at the Western Wall.

Sorry Yekhefah but facts are facts. Begin was a member of the Stern Gang, an ultra-violent offshoot of the Irgun . In the village of Dir Yassin during Israel's War for Independence (" Survival" ) Stern Gang members went in and massacred an entire village of Palestinians ( that's what they are btw ) for which they were condemned by Ben Gurion et. al.

To finance their operations they robbed banks and extorted money for protection.

Eric Stoner
11-29-2007, 12:29 PM
I agree that biblical texts can have objective historical value, but they're not the oldest book. The I Ching, the Vedas, the Epic of Gilgamesh, Egyptian papyrus texts, all can claim to be as old as, or older than, biblical texts.

Sorry for the off-topic tangent.


Yek, I didn't write that frivolously or happily. I think the activities of the Irgun are pretty well documented along those lines. And for what it's worth, I approve of the Begin/Sadat legacy of the peace, however unsettled at times, between Israel and Egypt.


Afaic, Begin's Stern Gang activities can and should be forgiven. Collins and De Valera of Sinn Fein ; Kenyatta; Mandela; the Algerians etc. were all fairly characterized as "terrorists" and became "statesmen".

To me, Begin's real "sins" were the West Bank "settlements" which in many cases involved uncompensated evictions of long time Palestinian residents and the Sabra and Shatila massacres for which he was indirectly and Sharon was directly responsible. Sharon knew exactly what was going to happen if he let the Phalange into those camps (unless someone wants to claim he was a retarded moron) and did it anyway.

Katrine
11-29-2007, 08:24 PM
This whole issue illustrates why I am not religious and am suspicious of religions and religious people.

Historically, Palestine was populated in Roman times by more than just Jews ( or Israelites if you wish ). There were also Samaritans and some Arabs living in the same general area and even 2000 years ago for both religious and economic reasons they had trouble getting along with each other. The Jews looked down their noses at the Samaritans ( who are still there today btw) and both groups didn't like the Bedouins/Arabs.

Fast forward to 1900 when the Zionist Movement started "colonizing" Palestine by BUYING land from absentee landlords with minimal displacement of Arabs. At the time the area was controlled by the Ottoman Empire which was VERY tolerant of Jews. When W.W.I broke out; the Jews supported the British or stayed neutral but the Palestinians supported the Turks; and lost. They supported Hitler ; and lost. They supported the Grand Mufti in 1946; and lost. They supported Nasser in 1967; and lost. They supported Sadat and Assad in 1973 ; and lost. They opposed Sadat's peace Initiative in 1977; and lost. They supported Saddam in 1990; and lost. They were offered a great deal by Barak that would have given them almost all of the West Bank and turned it down. Their fellow Arabs don't much care for them and generally don't want them living in their countries.


This is the ugly truth most people do not know about.

But Yek, I wish you knew some of the people I have known in my life; Azhk Jews, Seph Jews, Arabs, Palestenians, Copts, Druz, etc, etc.....I cannot hate an entire group of people for the actions of a few extremists.

scarlett_vancouver
12-02-2007, 07:01 PM
I'd like to know how many who voted 'Jews' believe that (all) land in North America should be handed back to its original inhabitants?

Dottie Rebel
12-03-2007, 02:00 AM
^^No shit!

Susan Wayward
12-03-2007, 02:28 AM
some Arab groups have proposed that Israel be given back to the Arabs and that Israeli Jews be given a new homeland .... Long Island, NY !

See, I always heard that joke with "Miami!" as the punchline.

Melonie
12-03-2007, 04:42 AM
^^^ ah yes, 'God's Waiting Room' !

Optimist
12-04-2007, 11:53 PM
I'd like to know how many who voted 'Jews' believe that (all) land in North America should be handed back to its original inhabitants?

Ahhhh yes! Please give it back already! :hyper: We have big plans that will rival Vegas!!;D

I think Palestinians should work with Israelis. Each side should stop losing time and generations to this fight and begin mending fences and give the kingdoms surrounding them a run for their money! Of course their royal rivals will keep agitating to slow Israel down as much as possible.

I've met many Palestinians in Passaic NJ ( a huuuuuge community). All they want is to run their businesses and pursue their careers and raise families. Those people should be in Israel right now sharing their passion and talents.