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Elusive21
12-02-2007, 03:27 PM
Ok, I think I know what you're saying. It sucks that everyone's flaming you for it, but honestly, I thought the same thing when I was watching that episode. At first, I couldn't help but wonder why the hell those girls couldn't just get a job at titty bar, it would solve so many of their problems. Yep, that was the first thought that entered my mind because that's what I did. After high school I was pretty limited in my job options: I had 3 jobs and was working 7 days a week, barely surviving, so I got a job at a strip club. Of course, I realize that this option is definitely not for everyone, just like you realize that.

You probably made this post after just watching the show and I don't think everyone should be freaking out about it. Of course you can comprehend what it's like to be broke, anyone can comprehend what it's like to be broke (except maybe Paris Hilton, lol) I'm sure you were just talking about how if you were in their situation you wouldn't live with four people and eat once a day, you would be proactive and get another better paying job. I hear ya, that's exactly what I would do.

SundayMorning
12-02-2007, 04:48 PM
Morgan, I liked your most recent post. In my life, in my location, there have always been options for making better-than-minimum-wage. Sure, it's probably ugly, boring, distasteful, possibly dangerous work. But it's "unskilled" labor, there for the taking and most of it within public transportation's reach. However, I acknowledge that I'm starting with the huge advantage of being physically and mentally healthy and I definitely also acknowledge that the limitations on finding profitable employment escalate sharply as health decreases.

#1: Keep hope for your future. #2: Keep compassion for others.

MinahSky
12-02-2007, 06:14 PM
The reason I got on the OP was the WAY she said things. She could have picked a MUCH better way to get her point across. But since she chose to do it in the way she did, she received appropriate (to that person) reactions based on it.

Elusive21
12-02-2007, 06:21 PM
Am I the only one who thinks it's not always exactly easy to make much money as a stripper?

^^^ Exactly. Sure, there's going to be bad days, but most of the time you can still make pretty good money if you actually work.

Lexi
12-02-2007, 09:54 PM
I wonder if I'm the only girl who became a dancer because I wanted to dress up, feel sexy, have guys fawn over me and just to get on that stage and feel powerful? Does every girl but me become a stripper just because that's the last resort and she's broke?


You are not alone. lol I did it for those reasons, and because I had to finish school... but the first part was the main reason. lol:P

iambonbon05
12-02-2007, 11:31 PM
Nickel and Dimed is a good book. Just thought I'd throw that out there :p

As for the 30 days show, what happened to that? I remember seeing a preview, wanting to watch it and *poof* it seemed to disappear.

miabella
12-02-2007, 11:41 PM
nickeled and dimed is a HORRIBLE book.

insisting on living alone and refusing to socialise with fellow poor people is hardly 'reporting on the truth of poverty in america'.

even taking a roommate would have made the entire slumming exercise less repulsive. nothing like co-opting others for your agenda!

Susan Wayward
12-02-2007, 11:52 PM
Yeah, damn that Barbara Ehrenreich and her "Let's not make people clock out to pee!" agenda! And her "insisting" on living alone to find out if it was possible to do so on what she earned.

Please. You just don't like her because she's a godless feminist. And if there's one thing the powers that be need in this country, it's an underclass that believes in a heavenly reward.

stellaforstars
12-02-2007, 11:53 PM
Yeah, damn that Barbara Ehrenreich and her "Let's not make people clock out to pee!" agenda! And her "insisting" on living alone to find out if it was possible to do so.

:highfive: :hug:

RoseWhite
12-03-2007, 12:09 AM
Chiming in with another RIGHT ON to Susan (and to Ehrenreich, of course). I loved "Nickled and Dimed" as well.

miabella
12-03-2007, 02:12 AM
Yeah, damn that Barbara Ehrenreich and her "Let's not make people clock out to pee!" agenda! And her "insisting" on living alone to find out if it was possible to do so on what she earned.

Please. You just don't like her because she's a godless feminist. And if there's one thing the powers that be need in this country, it's an underclass that believes in a heavenly reward.

I don't like her because she didn't live as an actual poor person. she slummed it because she doesn't respect poor people in the least. acknowledging why it is that most poor people simply cannot afford to live alone would have been a start. but she wouldn't even go that far. all she wants is government money to go to social workers whose job it is to maintain poverty and fill out grant requests so THEY can continue to be employed and sneering at the people they're employed to supposedly help out.

politics is the real religion for most people in america, which you are cheerily illustrating...

Alaska
12-03-2007, 02:17 AM
I am flat out disturbed by your posts Miabella and they are so backwards to me that I can't even touch them right now......it's like you're getting your facts all wrong, but yet they are only your opinions. But they do not seem to be on the right topic.


Did you read the book?

And your choice of words and phrases is really "HORRIBLE". Repulsive??? Dismissing everything as politics and religion? Huhhhh? You can't even begin to argue with a person like you, but maybe I will tomorrow--not argue mmkay but just say what I gotta say...

Susan Wayward
12-03-2007, 02:56 AM
all she wants is government money to go to social workers whose job it is to maintain poverty and fill out grant requests so THEY can continue to be employed and sneering at the people they're employed to supposedly help out.

And more bull; she's in favor of changing the access to health and childcare in this country and the policies and practices of employers.


politics is the real religion for most people in america, which you are cheerily illustrating...

It's television, can't you even get your insults right? It's not political to think people are entitled to use the bathroom at work or be treated like human beings worth a living wage.

Aren't supposed Christians supposed to give a shit about actually helping the poor? Or are you trying to get a different religion into your politics? Prosperity doctrine, perhaps?

LilyLove
12-03-2007, 04:40 AM
I read Nickel and Dimed while working 30 hours per week at Arby's. That place treated us like crap. I was a great worker: always there on time, never called in sick, a quick and efficient worker, and treated customers very nicely. But I still got screamed at by the owner. I've never been called an idiot so much in my life, and I was only a senior in high school doing the best I could. Both the manager and owner routinely yanked on my clothing without asking to see if I was tucking me shirt in far enough or wearing black socks.

Even though I, and most of the other employees there were great workers, we never got raises. Only the girl that was dating the owners son got a raise. The raise was literally pennies per hour. But it was better than what anyone else got...

But yeah, I liked the book. It made me feel less marginalized. It did piss me off a little bit to hear all of her self-pity about her circumstances though... and also that she bought weed while she was so supposedly destitute. But I'm glad she wrote it.

Mastridonicus
12-03-2007, 09:46 AM
I've been reminded of a few views I've held in recent years working myself up the corporate and business ownership ladder.

I bought a coffee from Tim Hortons. I pretty well known coffee vendor. I was greeted by a very cold and "efficient" customer service agent whom I, at one time, would have reasonable conversation with while waiting for my order. After assuming the problem wasn't me (other locations had the same cold efficiency going on) I just kind of ignored it and just decided to break ice.

Typically I would hand over my previous, now trash, TH order for their disposal and sometimes-reuse of the cup. This is when I was informed that they don't do that anymore because it's unsanitary. I was TOTALLY fine with that and could understand it. It did spur me to ask a few questions.

TURNS OUT TH is doing an efficiency initiative in the winter. (maybe our local franchise owner) If the associate keeps the window open longer than 13 seconds, a flag is sent up and the media that is being recorded is flagged. Yes she has to justify why if she does it more than 5 times. They are not allowed to greet and talk with the guests, is this because the window is open? Apparently not, since the walk-in was explained to be the same.

Basically the associates are on a TIME schedule and their performance over the next couple of months is tied to it.

In related news, Best Buy is now timing their returns desk, and an online purchase that takes over a minute to find and check out is flagged for review.

ANYWHO, What bothers me about this, isn't the corporate appeal for efficiency and speed making the customers happy. It's the increased turnover rates as a result of this. I just have this whacked out notion, that maybe a good percentage of the reason why I do business with companies is because I enjoy the experience with the representative of the corporation.

But it's not just about me. These people aren't going to retire from Tim Hortons. They're going to leave/get fired and move on to other jobs. And basically robbing them from interacting with customers which is a crucial employment skill for a great percentage of our work force. Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion, I've certainly done no research. But half of my success in my current business is because I know how to talk and work with people, but every min wage job I had required that of me, so I was well prepared for both happy and UNHAPPY customers long before a manager had to get involved.

Oh well, my 2 cents.

What?

Alaska
12-03-2007, 09:50 AM
^ The reusing the cup part was unsanitary?

zxcire
12-03-2007, 09:54 AM
I don't like her because she didn't live as an actual poor person. she slummed it because she doesn't respect poor people in the least. acknowledging why it is that most poor people simply cannot afford to live alone would have been a start. but she wouldn't even go that far.


Um, yeah. That's what she spent the whole book doing, dude. They can't afford it because they don't make enough money.

I don't think there is a single thing in this world that you and I will agree on. I don't understand a single thing you believe in, and you don't make much sense!!!!

AlexxaHex
12-03-2007, 11:49 AM
I...um...third that notion. For real.

MinahSky
12-03-2007, 12:39 PM
I've been reminded of a few views I've held in recent years working myself up the corporate and business ownership ladder.

I bought a coffee from Tim Hortons. I pretty well known coffee vendor. I was greeted by a very cold and "efficient" customer service agent whom I, at one time, would have reasonable conversation with while waiting for my order. After assuming the problem wasn't me (other locations had the same cold efficiency going on) I just kind of ignored it and just decided to break ice.

Typically I would hand over my previous, now trash, TH order for their disposal and sometimes-reuse of the cup. This is when I was informed that they don't do that anymore because it's unsanitary. I was TOTALLY fine with that and could understand it. It did spur me to ask a few questions.

TURNS OUT TH is doing an efficiency initiative in the winter. (maybe our local franchise owner) If the associate keeps the window open longer than 13 seconds, a flag is sent up and the media that is being recorded is flagged. Yes she has to justify why if she does it more than 5 times. They are not allowed to greet and talk with the guests, is this because the window is open? Apparently not, since the walk-in was explained to be the same.

Basically the associates are on a TIME schedule and their performance over the next couple of months is tied to it.

In related news, Best Buy is now timing their returns desk, and an online purchase that takes over a minute to find and check out is flagged for review.

ANYWHO, What bothers me about this, isn't the corporate appeal for efficiency and speed making the customers happy. It's the increased turnover rates as a result of this. I just have this whacked out notion, that maybe a good percentage of the reason why I do business with companies is because I enjoy the experience with the representative of the corporation.

But it's not just about me. These people aren't going to retire from Tim Hortons. They're going to leave/get fired and move on to other jobs. And basically robbing them from interacting with customers which is a crucial employment skill for a great percentage of our work force. Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion, I've certainly done no research. But half of my success in my current business is because I know how to talk and work with people, but every min wage job I had required that of me, so I was well prepared for both happy and UNHAPPY customers long before a manager had to get involved.

Oh well, my 2 cents.

What?


I boycott companies that do this kind of BS. When they notice that since they implemented these kinds of policies they have lost money, they might stop. I refuse to support it.

NickT
12-03-2007, 01:22 PM
My sister-in-law got her Ph.D in social work, and one of her projects was on how to distribute benefit program information to the poor. One thing that struck her was that many poor people did not really comprehend that they could take steps to get out of poverty. They thought loans were things that rich people got. College was a place rich people went. You could only get a good job if you knew the right people. etc. It's almost how an oppressed minority would feel in a racist society.

Many of the people here have the ability to pull themselves up. You could take everything from them, put them in a new city, and they'd be alright. They'd be broke for a while, but pretty soon they'd be back on their feet.

Someone before said that broke is a temporary state, poor is a mindset. That really seems to be true.

Morgan_TX
12-03-2007, 03:54 PM
My sister-in-law got her Ph.D in social work, and one of her projects was on how to distribute benefit program information to the poor. One thing that struck her was that many poor people did not really comprehend that they could take steps to get out of poverty. They thought loans were things that rich people got. College was a place rich people went. You could only get a good job if you knew the right people. etc. It's almost how an oppressed minority would feel in a racist society.

Many of the people here have the ability to pull themselves up. You could take everything from them, put them in a new city, and they'd be alright. They'd be broke for a while, but pretty soon they'd be back on their feet.

Someone before said that broke is a temporary state, poor is a mindset. That really seems to be true.

I agree wholeheartedly with that last statement.

There was this one researcher who studied human intelligence, and he said that if he had the choice to be born rich or be born intelligent, he'd choose intelligent. He said that anyone who has the intelligence can become wealthy, regardless of the conditions in which they begin life.

But one of the other things that people often neglect is the beliefs of the lower-class. It's not just that they don't think they CAN go to college or get a loan--it's that they will often purposely shun such things. It's kind of a "blue-collar" mentality... I've heard my blue-collar friends say things like, "I don't want to go to college. I'd lose all my common sense!"

Poverty is almost seen as a virtue in some circles. Truthfully, I used to be that way, and it took some effort to overcome that when I started dancing. Because there's almost a sense of pride that comes from being poor, and a suspicion about the wealthy, as though being wealthy (or even comfortable!) is somehow sinful or wrong. So I think there really are some people who don't WANT to escape poverty.

These types of people WANT to live at a level just above survival, and maybe have just a bit of extra play money, but not a lot. Problem is that that's like flat-hatting. Sometimes fighter pilots will try to fly just a few feet above the trees. That's all fine and good, but if your engine sputters for a second, or if you get distracted at all, you're crashing into the forest. Same kind of thing with people who purposely live just above poverty. One hiccup, and they're being evicted, etc.

PhillyDancer1982
12-03-2007, 04:05 PM
First off this isn't meant to sound derogatory or degrading whatsoever..

I'm watching an old episode of MTV's True Life about young adults who are out on their own and broke. There are 2 different ladies both of whom are reasonably attractive and they are stressed out about money and one is about to be homeless. The other works at a restaurant and lives in a trailer with 4 other people and only eats once a day.

The whole time I've been saying to myself, "why don't you just become a stripper?".

I feel bad for them, but I'm sitting here in my 2 story house in the historic district, my expensive Coach bag next to me, my car outside is fully paid off, I never have to worry about mortgage payments or food being in the refrigerator. Not that I'm being show-offy or trying to be materialistic, I'm extremely thankful for everything I have and work my ass off for it (so does my husband) but I just don't comprehend people living with all that stress when they don't have to.

Opinions? Flaming? Anything?

I agree with you. I used to be as poor as the girls you speak about on MTV True Life. I contemplated dancing back then but didn't have the guts to do it. I constantly look back at my past and I want to kick myself for not going into dancing sooner. It coulda saved me a lot of trouble, since my debt and money problems seemed to do nothing but pile up and get worse over time.

A few winters ago when I was dancing and just starting to get financially stabilized, I was walking downtown in Philly's shopping district(Market Street) when I passed the usual homeless bums. One of these "bums" was a young 18-yr-old girl who was sitting huddled on the ground, reading a book next to a big handwritten cardboard sign that read "I'm 18 and HOMELESS. Please help" or something like that. She wasn't cracked-out looking or anything like that...she actually looked like a normal girl who was just dealt shitty circumstances. I only saw her for half a second but I remember thinking, "Why does she put up with panhandling on the street in the cold? Why don't she become a stripper so that she can get herself a better life?" I couldn't understand why she would put up with such a shitty life like that. I felt really bad.

But then again, Emily raises a good point...if every decent looking girl thought the way we did and became a stripper, then there'd be way too many strippers around for us to have made the money that we do.

PhillyDancer1982
12-03-2007, 04:21 PM
I read Nickel and Dimed while working 30 hours per week at Arby's. That place treated us like crap. I was a great worker: always there on time, never called in sick, a quick and efficient worker, and treated customers very nicely. But I still got screamed at by the owner. I've never been called an idiot so much in my life, and I was only a senior in high school doing the best I could. Both the manager and owner routinely yanked on my clothing without asking to see if I was tucking me shirt in far enough or wearing black socks.

Even though I, and most of the other employees there were great workers, we never got raises. Only the girl that was dating the owners son got a raise. The raise was literally pennies per hour. But it was better than what anyone else got...

I can relate...I worked at McDonalds when I was in high school for almost 2 yrs. I was a great worker yet I always seemed to get shortchanged when it came to raises. They were sexist. The guys always got bigger raises and more promotions than the girls, even the girls that were older(and therefore legally allowed to work more hrs than the 14-yr-old boys) and had been workig there longer. Oh yeah and the owner's son "Ross" made like $10/hr compared to the other workers making $5-6/hr.

I worked at McDonalds before Nickel and Dimed was written, but I do remember an embarrassing-yet-similar situation. Every morning, this regular group of little old people would come into McDonalds for their coffee and breakfast sandwiches. They would all hang out in this one side section of the McDonalds. One day right after they left, I was sent to clean off all the tables with a wet rag. When I approached the section that the senior citizens always sat in, I found a newspaper left behind, opened wide to a page with a headline that screamed, "YOUNG FAST FOOD WORKERS BEING WORKED TOO HARD AND PAID TOO LITTLE" or something similar. I felt a bit slighted. Were they trying to give me a hint? It was great to be working away my summer at $5.15/hr and to have these types of newspaper headlines rubbing it in while I'm at work.

McDonalds wasn't complete hell...the min wage it paid me was still enough to enable me to buy my first car. I made a lot of friends at that workplace and even a few dates! So while it wasn't the best job, it also wasn't the worst for a 15-16 yr old. But if I had to work at McDonalds as an adult(e.g., now at age 25), I'd probably hate it a lot more.

I read Nickel and Dimed years later, when I was out of work healing from my boob job. By this point in my life, I had just started dancing about half a year prior and had made a complete 180 with my life, financially speaking; I had gone from working min wge jobs and being at absolute rock bottom, to being able to afford my own apartment and a boob job and get out of debt, within a few months. I found myself relating a lot to the woes expressed in Nickel and Dimed, but the book also made me realize that I'd had it even worse than I realized at my past min wage jobs. I also felt grateful that I was able to dance and never have to work for min wage again.

jasmine
12-07-2007, 06:54 AM
Disclaimer - I haven't read all the posts.

Being broke is oftentimes not a choice, but an unavoidable fact of circumstance. As a college student I knew nothing of stripping, had been raised to be a straight-A student, polite, basically a "good girl." Stripping never even entered my mind.

For a while I worked 3 different part-time min wage jobs, while trying to go to class, so being broke is possible, even when you are trying your damndest. I would go to this little bar during happy hour, for $2 I could get a beer (usually could even get a guy to buy) and eat these little finger sandwiches, I ate a lot of ramen and mac & cheese, walked everywhere cause I didn't have gas money. I was BROKE. And what about the women who are overweight, or just not pretty enough to strip (they do exist).

Just saying I've been at both ends of the spectrum and many times you are working just as hard or harder when you can barely pay your bills. As long as someone is trying there is no shame in being short of money. If you set on your hiney and complain to anyone who will listen about being broke, while doing nothing to help yourself, then you are a waste of good oxygen.