View Full Version : Given all the abortion talk lately...
Circe
12-04-2007, 06:38 PM
I agree in theory. But for many reasons...not the least of which the trauma it causes to a womans body..it isnt or shouldnt be a choice that is made so casually.
Its like plastic surgery. Does a woman have the right to as much as she wants? Absolutely. If you knew someone who was having surgery after surgery....every time she ate too much she went in for lipo....wouldnt you be concerned about her? Having the right doesnt necessarily mean it IS right...
hope that makes sense(and I am in no way saying abortion is equal ot Plastic surgery obviously..it was just an example of an elective procedure)
Well, I do think that we should educate women as much as possible (pre-post abortion counselling, sex clinics, etc.) so they don't need to have 10+ abortions. I don't see where anyone here is saying abortion should be promoted as the fun birth control wave of the future.
Obviously, it's not an ideal situation and should attempt to be prevented via education. But beyond that...we do have to make that option available...because the alternative is forcing women to have numerous unwanted babies. Which is, you know, also hard on a woman's body. Moreso, I'd say.
Abortion cannot be compared to a cosmetic procedure even as a remote example. Like...having a baby is body and life altering, and of much more consequence/temporarily disabling than 20lbs of extra cellulite or a largish nose.
cameron_keys
12-04-2007, 06:42 PM
Well, I do think that we should educate women as much as possible (pre-post abortion counselling, sex clinics, etc.) so they don't need to have 10+ abortions. I don't see where anyone here is saying abortion should be promoted as the fun birth control wave of the future.
Obviously, it's not an ideal situation and should attempt to be prevented via education. But beyond that...we do have to make that option available...because the alternative is forcing women to have numerous unwanted babies. Which is, you know, also hard on a woman's body. Moreso, I'd say.
Abortion cannot be compared to a cosmetic procedure even as a remote example. Like...having a baby is body and life altering, and of much more consequence/temporarily disabling than 20lbs of extra cellulite or a largish nose.
It looks like you completely misunderstood everything I said. Maybe this will help clarify....
I didnt think anyone was saying it was great birth control...I was respoding to those who said "if it is her right to have one ..it is her right to have 20". Which morally might be true....if you say it is her right, who are we top draw the line for her. But it is still a surgical procedure and shouldnt be something taken lightly.
And as I said..I am well aware that abortion and plastic surgery arent comperable. My point was simply that having a cpl of procedures is one thing..but when someone goes overboard and starts abusing their body through ANY kind of elective surgical procedure, you have to start wondering about their state of mind.
SarahSynn
12-04-2007, 06:42 PM
Well, I do think that we should educate women as much as possible (pre-post abortion counselling, sex clinics, etc.) so they don't need to have 10+ abortions. I don't see where anyone here is saying abortion should be promoted as the fun birth control wave of the future.
Obviously, it's not an ideal situation and should attempt to be prevented via education. But beyond that...we do have to make that option available...because the alternative is forcing women to have numerous unwanted babies. Which is, you know, also hard on a woman's body. Moreso, I'd say.
Abortion cannot be compared to a cosmetic procedure even as a remote example. Like...having a baby is body and life altering, and of much more consequence/temporarily disabling than 20lbs of extra cellulite or a largish nose.
Abortion is an elective procedure just like cosmetic surgery.
Circe
12-04-2007, 07:01 PM
Buh? I was basically agreeing with you Cameron. Saying that we do need to educate women so that they don't "take this lightly" but that beyond that, there's not really much we can do for those who won't listen, as the alternative is forcing them to have children.
And yes, abortion is elective. I just think it's rather...minimizing to compare it to plastic surgery. Though I understand how you were using it originally, yes.
cameron_keys
12-04-2007, 07:07 PM
Buh? I was basically agreeing with you Cameron. Saying that we do need to educate women so that they don't "take this lightly" but that beyond that, there's not really much we can do for those who won't listen, as the alternative is forcing them to have children.
And yes, abortion is elective. I just think it's rather...minimizing to compare it to plastic surgery. Though I understand how you were using it originally, yes.
Ok..I misunderstood because of this" I don't see where anyone here is saying abortion should be promoted as the fun birth control wave of the future."
I didnt want anyone thinking that I was saying that.
PS might not have been the best comparison...biut it was the only electove surgery I could come up with and really...not much DOES compare truly so..it was the best I could do.
The thing that burns me is that the extreme pro lifers are also against birth control andsex education. Ummm....keeping kids unprotected and ignorant is teh BEST way to ensure they will eventually have an unwanted pregnancy. How is it they cant see that????
And I absolutley dont think anyone should be forced to have a child. That WOULD be worse then multiple abortions. Then youd not only be taking chances with your own health, but a child's as well.
Hatshepsut
12-04-2007, 07:41 PM
It is a woman's right to have as many abortions as she wishes. I knew someone who had about 10 by the time she was 27. These people can't even remember to take a pill every day. Would you want them having kids? I did my OBGYN and pediatric rotations in a county hospital, and I saw so many unwanted and abused children. I'm sorry if I seem like a backseat driver because I've never had an abortion, but I think what matters is the outcome/quality of life for all, including the child.
VenusGoddess, thank you for reiterating how adoption is not nearly as good as people make it out to be. I refer to it as baby trafficking because of the tangled red tape and bullshit involved. Also, you know that the stupid protesters would never adopt an HIV-positive crack baby with cerebral palsy.
mollyzmoon
12-04-2007, 07:54 PM
Going back to the article - is it more culpable (do you think) to abort because the baby is imperfect in some way that is not considered a disability? Like there are probably plenty of blind women who would see aborting a fetus because of a potential for blindness as selective as aborting because it was male. I agree with the author - the reason seems a bit sketchy. But can we come up with a principled difference?
This reminds me of my final paper for my ethics seminar last year. I'm too lazy to rehash the whole thing, but I remember this conversation between Peter Singer and a woman whose name I have horribly forgotten:
She was the victim of some horrible wasting disease I can't recall specifically...basically she was progressively more disabled each year of her adulthood. She was also a very accomplished lawyer and a brilliant woman. There was some conference or legal hearing (wouldn't it be awsome if I could remember these details?) where she was arguing against some law in favour of selective termination of potentially disabled children, because it was disrespectful to the disabled population. Peter Singer was there, and being the staunch utilitarian he is, he basically said that given the extra resources needed to accomodate a disabled population, it would be better if their lives were prevented/ prematurely ended (as in abortion, not murder...but maybe infanticide too...Peter Singer is kind of hardcore). It sounds cruel, but he made it sound frighteningly rational (as with so many things). He told this woman that clearly she had made something of herself, and had a very worthwhile life, but that all things being equal, he still argued that it would have been better if she had never been born. Like, to her face. And she said that ironically he was one of the very few people she had met who treated her like a person first without being strange towards her because of her disability.
But that's philosophy class stuff. I still stand by my view of abortion as the lesser evil in many situations where it happens. I am a callous ivory tower student, but I don't think there is anything particularly sacred about an unborn human fetus compared to other sentient life (it surely deserves consideration, but there are situations where the termination of a pre-person is not the worst thing).
High_Heel_Lover
12-04-2007, 09:06 PM
I just don't get why other options in birth control can't be used? There are many not just the pill, there is a patch, injections, IUD and many others. I just think it's dangerous for the health of the woman. But oh well so is life and I guess people will do what they believe is good for them but I wonder if the doctors are willing to go forward with abortions after a number of previous ones, does anyone know? Can they refuse to do a procedure if they believe it's not in the best interest of the woman's health, and then what would happen? These are serious question, no snark at all, just very curious.
VegasPrincess
12-04-2007, 09:20 PM
Cameron-
Sorry to hear about your awful experience and that your parents didn't understand. That is so awful that you had to go through all of that.
Personally, because the religion issue has been addressed, I would like to add that I am Catholic. I would also like to add that I am pro-choice. Completely and totally. In fact there are a group of Catholics known as Catholics for a choice. I stand with them.
I would like to say that I have never had an abortion. Why? I think I must not be very fertile because I have been irressponsible as fuck in the past. But if I were to become pregnant, I would not hesitate to have an abortion.
Truly, I have a large human sized dog. I know how much responsonbility that is. But if I want to stay out all fuck hours of the night and leave my dog alone for 14 hours, while it is probably mean and I HARDLY EVER do it, the worst mess I would have to clean up is some poop on the floor. Knowing that this is all the responsibility I can handle, how could I have a child?
As for the topic of the woman having nine abortions, that is a situation that perhaps one out of one million women who have had abortions has been in. While I have never had an abortion, I have been the designated friend who has taken many a girl, including one girl I worked with who had no real friends, to get their abortion. this is a painful and difficult procedure. It is NOT commonly being abused as birth control. nobody in their right mind would say, aww, fuck that, if I get knocked up I will have an abortion. It is just not done commonly.
beyond that, what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. A woman could have 100 abortions and, though that would be some bizzare and disturbing behavior to me on account of what those procedures would be doing to her body, I could not say it was wrong in a moral sense. Terminating a pregnancy, i do not believe, is killing/terminating a life.
I also do not really care for the terms pro life/ pro choice. I mean, aren't we really all pro life? None of us are pro death, which would essentially be the opposite of pro life.
I have also seen horrible examples of pro life protesters using extremely disgusting messages and posters and literally assaulting women walking into the clinics. It is horrible.
I believe the actions of a group show if they are a good group or not. How can you support the actions of a group that has killed doctors, secretaries, women having abortions, and also assaulted hundreds of thousands of women? It is so wrong. Those, I really believe, are the evil ones in this fight.
Beyond that, I would like to stress that there is a large demographic that votes SOLELY on the issue of pro life/ pro choice. This is why many candidates vote pro life, to get votes. You know damn well if their mistress got knocked up they would be pro choice. All i'm saying is it's politics.
Jenny
12-04-2007, 09:28 PM
Well keep in mind, ladies, that abortion is considered to be therapeutic (unlike cosmetic surgery). There are not many situations in North America in which abortion will be more expensive or more dangerous to one's health than a delivery. So I don't think there are many situations in which a doctor could legitimately say "I'm sorry, miss, but it will be better for your overall health to go ahead with this pregnancy."
I don't believe in conscientious objection to a therapeutic procedure - I think I already outlined how conscientious objection is extrusion of belief, not introversion. Sorry - I just read these guidelines on how to appropriate and within professional guidelines conscientiously object, and you do realize when they start point out different levels of different liabilities and where responsibility is allocated in the medical and pharmaceutical professions just how artificial that contention is. Anyway, I don't think that doctors should get to opt out of treating AIDS patients, or women who require terminations, or refuse to deliver biracial babies or refuse to refer or allow their patients to get blood transfusions when necessary because they might find it unpalatable.
As for 10 abortions - very few women have 10 abortions for the very simple and intuitive reason that pregnancy is much easier to prevent than terminate. Those few that have - I don't think you can get inside that head and really consider. To me that's pretty on par with asking something like "And why did she stick that in her eye?" It's either mental incapacity or external circumstance over which she doesn't have control.
And molly - utilitarianism must be controlled. You can't just let these ideas form their natural conclusion - if for no other reason than you can't conveniently catalogue suffering or joy; and tying utitilitariansim to economic models is just... well it creates a presumed rationality where there is none.
scarlett_vancouver
12-04-2007, 09:38 PM
Peter Singer was there, and being the staunch utilitarian he is, he basically said that given the extra resources needed to accomodate a disabled population, it would be better if their lives were prevented/ prematurely ended (as in abortion, not murder...but maybe infanticide too...Peter Singer is kind of hardcore). It sounds cruel, but he made it sound frighteningly rational (as with so many things). He told this woman that clearly she had made something of herself, and had a very worthwhile life, but that all things being equal, he still argued that it would have been better if she had never been born.
Was his argument purely resource-based? I'd love to know the details.
NinaDaisy
12-05-2007, 12:29 AM
My pregnancy was actually a result of an unlikely scenario. We used a condom, but it broke, thus being essentially useless. This happened over a holiday weekend, so I wasn't able to get the morning after pill from the Planned Parenthood clinic until it opened a few days later, but it was still within the timespan that it is effective(however, it is MORE effective the earlier you take it after sex). And then the pill failed too. It was a huge comedy of errors. That's how I got pregnant.
NOTE: Very recently, the morning-after-pill became available over-the-counter at 24-hour pharmacy chains...wish I had that convenience a few years ago!
So anyway, the pregnancy was accidental and unplanned, but I figured that I would "wise up" and do the responsible thing to raise the kid. I had already stabilized myself financially and lifestyle-wise(no more partying, no more drug use, etc), so it's not like I was one of those total wrecks that should never have kids. Yet I got so...much...opposition from so-called "friends" who turned out NOT to be true friends. I've since written off most of these "friends"...and guess what, I still talk to the "baby's daddy"(planning to see him over Christmas when he visits home) so fuck them all...
I saw you quoted me in your post, so I hope you don't think I was trying to offend you, because I wasn't.
Freaky shit does happen and I know the morning after pill wasn't easily available until recently. Before it was just a shit-ton on birth control pills.
You made the choice that was right for you and seem perfectly at peace with it. Your child is loved and well taken care of. That's the most important thing.
PhillyDancer1982
12-05-2007, 03:31 PM
I saw you quoted me in your post, so I hope you don't think I was trying to offend you, because I wasn't.
Freaky shit does happen and I know the morning after pill wasn't easily available until recently. Before it was just a shit-ton on birth control pills.
You made the choice that was right for you and seem perfectly at peace with it. Your child is loved and well taken care of. That's the most important thing.
NinaDaisy, don't worry...I know you weren't trying to be offensive. I just thought it'd be kinda interesting to bring up an abnormal, unusual situation like mine.
Thank you for your kind words, by the way. As far as making the right choice and seeming at peace with it, however, I do not feel that way 100%. While I was pregnant, so-called "friends" kept suggesting abortion to the point that I started doubting and second-guessing myself. When I asked my one friend(who has 2 kids herself) if she had any advice for how to alleviate the nausea felt during 1st trimester pregnancy, she said, "Yeah. An abortion. I'm sorry to sound so harsh. But I don't think you're ready for this" even though I had a much more stabilized life than her, and she had 2 kids. Long story short...all the stress and anxiety caused me to miscarriage.
I honestly wonder if I would have been better-off if I hadn't miscarried. I wouldn't have partied and had all the fun times I had this summer and last, but I would have had other happy memories. After the miscarriage and a few other traumatic experiences, I tended to use promiscuous sex as a drug for my pain...and as a result made some stupid decisions and developed a codependence on sex...so I wonder if perhaps I really would have been better-off being a parent at age 24.
AlexxaHex
12-05-2007, 03:59 PM
All I can say is that having an abortion seems really terrifying to me. I hope I never have to have one. As careful as we are now, I can't be on hormonal BC and IUDs are rarely given here. Even if I did get one I'd be concerned about my frequency of infections.
I don't think it would be fair of me to have another baby now. Not fair to anybody in the family. So with respect to my daughter especially I would have to have one. I guess it's a good thing that breastfeeding hormones make one's libido a little quieter. When we do actually get down to business it's condoms all the way, or other activities.
I'm not pro-life but I would personally feel very guilty and sad about aborting. I don't think it has anything to do with society at all, or the difficulty of having the procedure as Jenny postulates. It is more for personal reasons.
I honestly don't understand why other women don't feel the same way I do but I don't begrudge them for it. Everyone is different.
NinaDaisy
12-05-2007, 04:06 PM
...so I wonder if perhaps I really would have been better-off being a parent at age 24.
Maybe, but if you would have been a parent at age 24 it wouldn't have been about you anyway, it would have been about how well off the kid would have been.
You can't torment yourself with those thoughts. Something else shitty could have very well happened to make you want to numb the pain. You have no way of knowing.
We can't go back and change things. The best we can do is learn from our mistakes and atone for past ones as best we can if we've hurt other people.
PhillyDancer1982
12-06-2007, 09:13 AM
Maybe, but if you would have been a parent at age 24 it wouldn't have been about you anyway, it would have been about how well off the kid would have been.
Yes I understand that, and I think the kid would have been well taken care of. During that time in my life(almost 2yrs ago), some "so-called friends" and even some close friends underestimated my abilities. Unfortunately, underestimation has been a running motif throughout my life. It started when my parents doubted my abilities to score a killer SAT score or take on 5 AP courses, and when people would mistake me for being dumber/more naive/less skilled than I actually was. I wonder if perhaps my past unassertive, spineless nature is what influenced people to honestly misperceive me this way.
Since then, I've had MANY discussions with the closest friends that doubted me and most of them have sincerely admitted that they made a mistake in doubting me. I wish them respected my decision and logic back then, instead of thinking that maybe I didn't know what was best for me.
In my opinion, there is a difference between WANTING kids and BEING ABLE to have kids. There are a lot of 20somethings out there that don't feel ready to have kids simply because they want a few more years to travel, spend money lavishly, stay out late with no responsibilities pulling them down, etc...but if they HAD to have a kid, they would have the money, maturity, and life skills to do it. So for them, the only thing missing is the desire. For example, my friend "Ron" who is 26, engaged, has good common sense, and a good job as a civil engineer...but doesn't want to have kids yet. HOWEVER, for someone else to tell a girl that she is "not ABLE"--moneywise, relationshipwise, etc--is rather insulting.
VaVaVoom
12-11-2007, 11:35 AM
I found this website after I had my guilt-free abortion 4 years ago
http://www.imnotsorry.net/whythis.htm
There you will find more women who dont feel like they have to apologise.
Picaresque
12-11-2007, 09:54 PM
I just don't get why other options in birth control can't be used? There are many not just the pill, there is a patch, injections, IUD and many others.
Birth control is not 100% effective. And many women can't deal with hormonal methods, which leaves them with considerably fewer options.
If I could find a doctor who isn't narrow-minded and would give me a tubal ligation...well, that's another rant for another time.
AlexxaHex
12-11-2007, 11:50 PM
I found this website after I had my guilt-free abortion 4 years ago
http://www.imnotsorry.net/whythis.htm
There you will find more women who dont feel like they have to apologise.
That's a pretty cool site. Glad it exists.
Sort of reminds me of a situation with a lesbian I know. She had one drunken night with a man, got pregnant and was going to study overseas for a long time and didn't even really know the guy. She had an abortion. While it wasn't exactly a fun and pleasant thing to do, she feels it was definitely the right decision. There's no reason to feel guilty about that.
Another friend has two kids, LOVES children and wants to have more. She recently got pregnant by her husband, but she can't afford to have any more children right now because her two are in expensive schools and she also needs to have surgery so a general anesthesia and the necessary painkillers afterwards might do a lot of harm to an unborn fetus. She chose to have an abortion. It upset her greatly but she doesn't feel guilty about it either, nor should she.
I think it's important also in this discussion to differentiate between feeling guilty and feeling sad. You can feel the loss and grieve but you don't have to feel as though you did something wrong.
PhillyDancer1982
12-12-2007, 10:15 AM
OKAY I GOTTA GET THIS OFF MY CHEST. I DON'T LIKE TO JUDGE OR SOUND JUDGMENTAL, BUT THIS IS KINDA BOTHERING ME...\
A few days ago at work, I was conversing with some girls in the dressing room and this one girl came in, a few of us said hi to her, and she said that she wasn't feeling her best because she'd just gotten an abortion a few days ago. But she sounded nonchalant about it! Then another dancer said to her, "That's what I need...an abortion" and they started talking about abortions. The first girl told the second girl about a place and how much they charged. They started talking about abortions so casually and out in the open, as though they were talking about a bank that offers checking accounts! They made it seem like it was a simple TRANSACTION, with no thought behind.
At one point, the first girl(who'd just gotten the abortion) actually said that the abortion was "fun"! I looked at her a little alarmed, and then she explained, "Well what I mean is, they dope you up on all kinds of painkillers so right after they complete the abortion, you're all high and loopy and all." WTF?
I understand that abortion is a choice, and I shouldn't judge so much...but why do people treat it like such a casual matter, like it's not a big deal? Don't they put any apprehension into it??
As for the girl who "needs an abortion" the same way that I need to pick up more paper towels for my apartment later this week...I really wonder how far along she is, because she already seems to be showing a decent amount. I can understand a woman's right to choose abortion, but do they have to wait that long? Isn't it safer to get it done early on, as opposed to procrastinating and waiting until later?
I hope I don't sound extremely judgmental...but I was talking about this with my friend after work that night, and I'd talked about it with another girl in the dressing room who'd witnessed the abortion convo...and both of them strongly agreed with me here. But what do you think? I can understand the right to choose, but shouldn't people put more thought and seriousness into it?
I hope I don't sound extremely judgmental...but I was talking about this with my friend after work that night, and I'd talked about it with another girl in the dressing room who'd witnessed the abortion convo...and both of them strongly agreed with me here. But what do you think? I can understand the right to choose, but shouldn't people put more thought and seriousness into it?
I can understand why you'd feel this way. Careless people bother me, too. Carelessness in general is the hallmark of an idiot, IMO. But, at the same time, any old idiot can have a kid. And any old idiot can have an abortion. I don't think I'd have an issue with her having an abortion, but I would have an issue with her carelessness and idiotic mannerisms.
flickad
01-09-2008, 11:30 PM
Yeah, my mother's had two. She said she had no trouble in deciding to have the abortions and that the only thing she felt afterwards or since is relief. I suspect I'd be the same if I had an abortion myself, given my extremely negative feelings regarding becoming a parent, but I've not had need of one and am quite unlikely to.
misslizzy
01-10-2008, 01:45 AM
I don't want kids. I'm probably going to go and get fixed as soon as I turn 30 (most places in NJ won't perform a tubal ligation on a woman who isn't at least 30 and/or with three kids). In the meantime, I'm on the pill and unless I'm in a relationship (which is an idea only slightly more attractive than a baby), I use condoms.
You can bet I'd be on the phone with the clinic as soon as the pee-stick showed two blue lines.
PS - I completely agree with whoever it was above that said "having the right does not make it right." Abortions should come with the encouraged (but not pushed) option of "how not to be in this position again" lessons. I'm inclined to think that *most* multiple abortions happen with women lacking in knowledge about proper birth control methods.
I get that accidents happen with condoms and pills, and that some girls are just super-fertile; but that's no excuse to be irresponsible with your own health. Abortions aren't exactly good for you, and I doubt that repeated abrupt changes in hormones stronger than what happens when you get your period are all that healthy, either.
Jenny
01-10-2008, 09:12 AM
Actually... I mean an abortion is "less bad" for you than a pregnancy and birth. Healthwise an abortion is always a better decision. And... I don't know. I kind of think these women using abortion as birth control is kind of a myth. I mean - a) you don't get pregnant every time you have unprotected sex (despite what they sort of imply in health class). You are really only going to get pregnant if you have unprotected sex like on one of what? Four days in a month? Plus, unless you count Plan B as abortion (I don't) there is no situation in which getting an abortion is easier than using birth control. I mean... the lazier you are, the more likely you are to use birth control the next time. I mean to have protected sex you just have to deal with some kind of birth control; long term pill, patch, condom, IUD etc. To have an abortion you need to make an appointment (or go to a pharmacist) give them a medical history, etc., etc. I mean everyone knows someone who knows someone who's had like 11 abortions... but I don't really believe in it. And stats collected by clinics sort of back me up.
kitty69
01-10-2008, 11:16 AM
Mine was really awful. I fell pregnant 1 month after my 16th birthday to a guy who I had been seeing for a couple of months. He was a copper and 26 yrs old. I panicked and basically he said it was either him or the baby so I decided to get rid because i didn't dare tell my mum and dad. Any way i had to wait until i was 15 wks because i just found out before christmas. on the day he dropped me at the hospital where i was given an induced labour and had to give birth because of how far i was. it was on the same day i should have been starting my nursery nursing course at college. It took hours and the pain was unbearable, i was by myself the whole time. I then had to have my womb scraped to make sure every thing had come away which meant a general anesthetic. i had told my mum i was at my friends house that night.
he picked me up the next day and dropped me at the top of my street. I cried for a week and wanted to die so i took an overdose cos i couldn't stand the guilt. He finished me a couple of weeks later. A month later i was still bleeding huge clots and had to have another scrape because they hadn't got everything the time before. My 'baby' is buried with lots of other little babies in a cemetery not far from where i live. I would never judge anyone for the right to have a termination i would just never go through that again and it has effected me my entire adult life. i later allowed a guy to physically and mentally abuse me for two years because i didn't think i deserved any better. i have only just come to terms with the fact that at the time i was too young to make a good decision. my mum and dad still don't know. am sorry for any mistakes in this i just don't want to go back through to correct it.
GoldCoastGirl
01-10-2008, 06:51 PM
Yeah, my mother's had two. She said she had no trouble in deciding to have the abortions and that the only thing she felt afterwards or since is relief. I suspect I'd be the same if I had an abortion myself, given my extremely negative feelings regarding becoming a parent, but I've not had need of one and am quite unlikely to.
I know my (late) mother had plenty of miscarriages before she had me and then my younger brother (I think if I recall correctly she had one between me and my younger brother). Anyway, whether or not my mother has had abortions or any of my friends have had abortions etc... I"m with flickad on this one.
I suspect I would have the same sense of relief not guilt or anything. Plus I too do not ever want to have children... until the day I am able to have Essure ( http://www.essure.com.au/static/index.html ) ... I stick with BC and condoms.... and always give myself the options of the "Morning After Pill" as well as abortion.
Abortion isn't something I hopefully won't have to experience in this lifetime of mine... yet at least I know I will be okay with it all.
AlexxaHex
01-11-2008, 08:30 AM
Actually... I mean an abortion is "less bad" for you than a pregnancy and birth. Healthwise an abortion is always a better decision. And... I don't know. I kind of think these women using abortion as birth control is kind of a myth. I mean - a) you don't get pregnant every time you have unprotected sex (despite what they sort of imply in health class). You are really only going to get pregnant if you have unprotected sex like on one of what? Four days in a month? Plus, unless you count Plan B as abortion (I don't) there is no situation in which getting an abortion is easier than using birth control. I mean... the lazier you are, the more likely you are to use birth control the next time. I mean to have protected sex you just have to deal with some kind of birth control; long term pill, patch, condom, IUD etc. To have an abortion you need to make an appointment (or go to a pharmacist) give them a medical history, etc., etc. I mean everyone knows someone who knows someone who's had like 11 abortions... but I don't really believe in it. And stats collected by clinics sort of back me up.
How is abortion "less bad" for you than pregnancy and birth? Are we talking about hormones or psychological or socioeconomical issues? Essentially you go against nature by chemically and surgically removing a living thing from your body. It's not healthy, and it's much easier to think about a pregnancy after the fact than to always use birth control every time, especially in the heat of the moment. There's always that "it won't happen to me" factor with people who aren't scared by previous experience or education. Some women subconsciously don't want to use birth control, I think. It's a little dumb, but it's natural and it most definitely happens. I know a woman who's had something like 7 abortions. I can't figure out why she doesn't seek out a stronger method of birth control. Maybe there is a psychological issue.
Birth control SHOULD be the first line of defense against pregnancy if fertility is not the desired outcome.
Lysondra
01-11-2008, 08:54 AM
I seriously never get this 'heat of the moment' excuse for not using condoms. If I'm fucking a guy who can't keep his dick up long enough to slip a piece of latex over, he isn't someone I want to be sleeping with.
I've also never found it 'unsexy' to put one on. Use your mouth, touch yourself...whatever. It's like ten seconds to make sure you're safe. Wow, ten whole seconds; that totally kills the mood.
I have never had an abortion but I would definitely get one. I would make a terrible mother, I am afraid of pregnancy and would surely become suicidal, my genetics suck and pregnancy could cause my hormones to make my cancer flair up again and kill me (and the baby). I'd rather not risk it.
While it sometimes bugs me to see women who go for 5-6-7-20 abortions, I don't believe anyone should stop them. Obviously they're not even grown-up enough to handle basics like condom roll DOWN, sperm make BABIES... so they ain't exactly equipped in the mental department to care for a child.
RoseWhite
01-11-2008, 09:35 AM
I seriously never get this 'heat of the moment' excuse for not using condoms. If I'm fucking a guy who can't keep his dick up long enough to slip a piece of latex over, he isn't someone I want to be sleeping with.
That' a great way of putting it!
As for the matter of pregnancy being bad for you, I truly don't know what Jenny meant either. I am as pro-choice as they come, and I believe I shared my own experiences with two abortions in this very thread, but there's evidence that pregnancy and childbirth do have major health benefits for women. It decreases the risk of breast, ovarian and endometrial cancers (breastfeeding being another factor in this decreased risk), for example. Some studies link nulliparity to premature menopause, which then carries a whole host of potential health problems (my own adoptive mother went through this and is still dealing with the repercussions). And so on.
Perhaps you're referring to a risk of death in childbirth, but while it does occasionally tragically still happen, it is also just incredibly rare in this day and age. I mean, while it's a valid choice if someone isn't comfortable with it, I don't personally avoid air travel because of the truly minute risk of a crash.
In no way shape or form am I suggesting that women have babies simply to decrease cancer & other health risks, not at all. But the suggestion that pregnancy is detrimental to a woman's health is just not supported by data.
Jenny
01-11-2008, 09:46 AM
How is abortion "less bad" for you than pregnancy and birth? Are we talking about hormones or psychological or socioeconomical issues? The fact is that the "naturalness" of pregnancy notwithstanding a woman is much more likely to face serious complications in the course of a pregnancy and birth than during an abortion. A pregnancy and birth is much more likely to give you lasting (bad) medical effects than an abortion. The fact that babies are cute doesn't really change that.
Essentially you go against nature by chemically and surgically removing a living thing from your body.
Huh? I mean, yes you do go against nature. But I don't know what give you the idea that everything that is natural is good for you. Pregnancy and childbirth has been killing women for millions of years. Like, yes, it's a natural process, but so is getting cancer and dying - it doesn't make it good for you. We surgically remove lots of things from our bodies to the benefit of our general health - if you are focusing on the "living thing" aspect that is a moral argument that I'm (honestly) not particularly interested in, not an argument as to the woman's health.
It's not healthy,
Yes, but pregnancy and childbirth is not "healthy" either.
and it's much easier to think about a pregnancy after the fact than to always use birth control every time, especially in the heat of the moment. There's always that "it won't happen to me" factor with people who aren't scared by previous experience or education.
Sure. I agree that most abortions are the result of carelessness. I was saying that I don't really believe in the "ten abortions and counting" myth. So they would have "previous experience".
Some women subconsciously don't want to use birth control, I think. It's a little dumb, but it's natural and it most definitely happens. I know a woman who's had something like 7 abortions. I can't figure out why she doesn't seek out a stronger method of birth control. Maybe there is a psychological issue.
Like I said - everyone knows someone who knows someone. And that is how rumors gets started.
Birth control SHOULD be the first line of defense against pregnancy if fertility is not the desired outcome.Sure - but this doesn't really have any effect on anything I said.
RoseWhite - you might not die in childbirth, but that doesn't mean that there aren't attendant complications, and those complications are exponentially more likely to come up in a birth than in an abortion. I'm not arguing that all women should have abortions for their general health - just that "abortions are bad for you" is not particularly compelling when you view the physical effects of an abortion compared to the physical effects of childbirth.
mollyzmoon
01-11-2008, 10:08 AM
And molly - utilitarianism must be controlled. You can't just let these ideas form their natural conclusion - if for no other reason than you can't conveniently catalogue suffering or joy; and tying utitilitariansim to economic models is just... well it creates a presumed rationality where there is none.
I'm not a proponent of unbridled utilitarianism either. Even Peter Singer used a lot of 'resources' to pay for the specialized care of his dying mother. I think it'd be wrong to slice up an innocent person in order to harvest her organs, and save ten other innocent persons. In my essay I actually argued against the laws to terminate potentially disabled children, because I do think it's disrespectful to disabled populations. I guess I was just playing devil's advocate or something.
I really think an abortion is a woman's choice over her own body. There are so many factors involved in pregnancy, and if a woman is going to have control over herself, than she needs control over her reproductive system. Birth control is not fool proof either, and making a mistake in judgment should not commit a person to the consequence of something as serious as pregnancy. If it were really hot in your apartment, and you opened the window to let in a cool breeze, and then a robber slipped in...would you have to let the robber stay there? It was your fault you opened the window, but surely that doesn't entitle the robber to steal your stuff.
For women who have multiple abortions, I don't really see the moral difference. If having one abortion is morally permissible, why should more than one be a problem? If the mistake were made again and again, I guess that is bad luck. But how should that mean that she ought to keep her pregnancy at that point? I think the odds are against someone getting an abortion many times, for the reasons Jenny pointed out. Still, you could hypothetically flip a coin fifty straight times, and get heads every time. That doesn't mean anything except shit luck. Technically speaking, it doesn't mean that you should expect a heads the fifty-first time, or even a tails for that matter (assuming the coin is not rigged).
Starfire
01-14-2008, 12:30 PM
Just to reply to the original post...when I took womens health, we talked about abortion, and "post abortion depression" which some pro-life groups talk about, comparing it to post partum depression. However, in a huge survey taken of women who had had abortions (I wish I could cite the research but it's been awhile since I took that class) many women reported that instead of feeling depression they felt relief after their abortion. I'm pretty sure feeling relief OR depression are normal responses to having an abortion depending on the person and the circumstances.
kaiarose
01-14-2008, 12:35 PM
I was thisclose to having an abortion. At the time I was being very selfish and couldn't fathom having a child hone in on MY life. My mom talked to me and I ended up not getting the abortion. Now I'm a proud mama of the cutest little girl ever! I guess it was meant to be. I couldn't imagine my life without her now.
Jenny
01-14-2008, 12:39 PM
I'm not a proponent of unbridled utilitarianism either.
Oh you are. Yes you are. You are totally getting ready to slice up an innocent person for organ harvesting right now.
We discussed before how I'm impatient with philosophical models. I'm also impatient with economic models - I'm not sure how they are related, but they engender the same kind of suspicion in me, so I'm pretty sure there is a connection. I wrote a comment last year on utilitarianism, torture, infrastructure and 24. You would probably have a healthy derision the utilitarianism part (in fact I might have cut that out - you know. In anticipation of your hypothetical derision), but enjoyed the pop culture (everyone else discussed their topics all "I wrote about Suresh and the comparison with American "commission" law; and I was all "yeah... I wrote about Kiefer Sutherland.")
Even Peter Singer used a lot of 'resources' to pay for the specialized care of his dying mother.
Hypocrite.
Alia_of_the_Knife
01-14-2008, 03:20 PM
At one point, the first girl(who'd just gotten the abortion) actually said that the abortion was "fun"! I looked at her a little alarmed, and then she explained, "Well what I mean is, they dope you up on all kinds of painkillers so right after they complete the abortion, you're all high and loopy and all." WTF?
I understand that abortion is a choice, and I shouldn't judge so much...but why do people treat it like such a casual matter, like it's not a big deal? Don't they put any apprehension into it??
I can completely understand this. I have never had an abortion but I did have oral surgery. Everyone was acting like it was the most horrible thing in the world to have your jaw broken open and to be put under anesthesia but I actually found it to be really fun and would do it all over again! I absolutely loved the pain meds I got afterwards. Yes, medical procedures can be dangerous but so can driving in your car. I really don't see having an abortion and ethically any more evil than having a wisdom tooth pulled out.
And as for me, I have never had an abortion and use condoms and are on the pill so I doubt I would ever need one but if I had a condom break and my pills didn't work I would get an abortion in a heartbeat. There is no way I could handle having a kid right now. I think I would like to have children in the future (and when I say future, I mean 10+ years, my mom had me when she was 33 and my father was 36, and I was there first and only child. I am 22 years old now and I feel with today's medical technology I am in NO rush.)
There are people who disgust me, I met a woman who had 9 abortions, now why do that? oh but it wasn't because she didn't want kids but she didn't want a boy so as soon as she found out it was a boy and not a girl she would abort, made me so sad :(
Thats pretty much the worst thing I have heard in a long time. That means she had to be pretty far along to know the sex of the baby, and then to just get rid of it because of the gender??? Omg. With that kind of behavior, she is even lucky to GET pregnant.
Jenny
01-14-2008, 08:05 PM
Well... let's consider a moment because this is how rumors get started; how likely is it that she would have nine consecutive pregnancies of male children? I mean, it is possible. certainly. But not wildly likely.
Susan Wayward
01-14-2008, 08:10 PM
I wish everyone would just follow the simple maxim "Don't like abortion? Don't have one." I am in agreement that if you defend the right to choose, you defend the right to choose every time.
For a really excellent essay from the perspective of a woman who's had more than a handful, read this. (http://prettydumbthings.typepad.com/chelseagirl/2006/03/terminate.html)
Mine was really awful. I fell pregnant 1 month after my 16th birthday to a guy who I had been seeing for a couple of months. He was a copper and 26 yrs old. I panicked and basically he said it was either him or the baby so I decided to get rid because i didn't dare tell my mum and dad. Any way i had to wait until i was 15 wks because i just found out before christmas. on the day he dropped me at the hospital where i was given an induced labour and had to give birth because of how far i was. it was on the same day i should have been starting my nursery nursing course at college. It took hours and the pain was unbearable, i was by myself the whole time. I then had to have my womb scraped to make sure every thing had come away which meant a general anesthetic. i had told my mum i was at my friends house that night.
he picked me up the next day and dropped me at the top of my street. I cried for a week and wanted to die so i took an overdose cos i couldn't stand the guilt. He finished me a couple of weeks later. A month later i was still bleeding huge clots and had to have another scrape because they hadn't got everything the time before. My 'baby' is buried with lots of other little babies in a cemetery not far from where i live. I would never judge anyone for the right to have a termination i would just never go through that again and it has effected me my entire adult life. i later allowed a guy to physically and mentally abuse me for two years because i didn't think i deserved any better. i have only just come to terms with the fact that at the time i was too young to make a good decision. my mum and dad still don't know. am sorry for any mistakes in this i just don't want to go back through to correct it.
:hug:
That sounds terrible. I am so sorry.
kitty69
01-16-2008, 03:47 PM
^^^ It was really the worst thing and I would not wish it on my worst enemy, but the great thing is I have now got two beautiful daughters. I will never forget everything that happened, but I went on to have a happy ending and when they are driving me crazy, I try to remember how much I wanted them. :)
^^^ It was really the worst thing and I would not wish it on my worst enemy, but the great thing is I have now got two beautiful daughters. I will never forget everything that happened, but I went on to have a happy ending and when they are driving me crazy, I try to remember how much I wanted them. :)
:hug:
Im glad everything is much better now.
^^^ It was really the worst thing and I would not wish it on my worst enemy, but the great thing is I have now got two beautiful daughters. I will never forget everything that happened, but I went on to have a happy ending and when they are driving me crazy, I try to remember how much I wanted them. :)
:hug:
Im glad things have worked themselves out now.
AlexxaHex
01-16-2008, 09:00 PM
Well... let's consider a moment because this is how rumors get started; how likely is it that she would have nine consecutive pregnancies of male children? I mean, it is possible. certainly. But not wildly likely.
It's not always a rumor. And let's just say it is true. It's part of the equation.
Jenny
01-17-2008, 01:19 PM
It's not always a rumor. And let's just say it is true. It's part of the equation.I don't really understand what you're saying here. Like why should I "just say it's true"? Like, to what end are we hypothesizing that? I ask, because the post you responded to was skeptical the 10 abortions in a row claim (although I found Susan's article pretty compelling). Like, I'm willing to "just say" it's true for a given purpose - but what's the purpose? And what equation?
AlexxaHex
01-17-2008, 08:49 PM
I'm saying that women can and DO have several abortions in a row. I don't know why you keep saying "that's how rumors get started" because it actually DOES happen. These cases are part of the issue/equation/situation regarding abortion. You have to factor these stories into what we are talking about, if not just for anecdotal purposes. It's just bugging me how you keep pushing this under the rug, because I do know women who have had several abortions. Maybe the procedure is not as popular in Canada or something, but I guess us lazy, slutty no-condom-wearing Americans are addicted to the coat hanger. :shrug:
Dottie Rebel
01-17-2008, 08:51 PM
What's wrong with having more than one abortion? Is it supposed to be, like, a one-time take-back?
AlexxaHex
01-17-2008, 08:54 PM
I'm not passing judgement on those who have more than one abortion. At all.
I'm just not sure what's right about having 7, 10, 20 abortions. Just...why?
The reason I just posted what I did is because it seems as though Jenny was saying these extreme cases don't happen or something. Maybe I misunderstood.
Jenny
01-17-2008, 09:09 PM
Okay. Well - as I said before, statistically it is quite uncommon. According to the Bay Centre for Birth Control and Choices in Health it is very few women who have more than two. Seeing as they collect this information professionally, I don't find "I know someone who knows someone" to be particularly compelling counterevidence.
I'm sorry you're "bugged" - but I can't characterize refusing to accept unproven, probably exaggerated anecdotal evidence over that of professionals to be pushing anything under a rug. I might ask why you are insisting on characterizing it is a genuine social problem - inflating it, as it were, with more legitimacy.
Finally - I think I look at the abortion"equation"... very differently than you do. In that - I can't see what this has to do with it. I think it is a huge inflation of a projected "bad woman" to show an example on why the government should be controlling when women should have to have babies rather than abortions. What does it have to do with the "equation" in your eyes? I mean for purposes besides painting the aborting woman as having some kind of unknown and unarticulated culpability, at in potentia?
BTW - they've done studies. As it happens Americans are way sluttier and lazier than the average Canadian. Who would have thought?
AlexxaHex
01-17-2008, 09:28 PM
I think you have mistaken me for "the enemy". I'm not arguing anymore.
Jenny
01-17-2008, 09:34 PM
^^
I have? Are you sure?