View Full Version : The Black KKK
Budai
12-12-2007, 03:35 PM
i'm surprised your finger is not on the pulse of this issue considering your profession.
That's an impressive reading list, Sh0t. However, one's ability to Google is no substitute for specialized training, direct experience or innate qualities like compassion and empathy.
Let me repeat, without seasoning, hands-on experience or the stomach for confronting human loss and pain daily, your declarations about my profession amount to rhetoric. Please limit yourself to programming computers, bedding thousands of grateful females, self-promotion...oh, and "changing the world"!!! :wizard:
I give talks, been on the radio, tv, got a stiped for a book, member of the relevent entities, etc. I changed my life for this when I left the military after it no longer aligned with my beliefs. I have plans on doing nothing less than changing the world, hopefully. I spent much of the last year building a variety of passive income businesses so I could leave my full time job next month to spend more time on this.
You may need to become more objective as you carry the principles of anarcho-libertarianism forward into Sh0t's New Millenium. Are you the only qualified champion of anarcho-libertarianism? Wait!!! Let me Google that before I can ask you more about this bewildering topic...::)
Because it is just that, a hobby. I view sex the same way i do playing pickup basketball and martial arts are hobbies. i have a lot of books on basketball and martial arts, too. For some men, sex and the validation from it is often the major issue in their lives.
:rotfl: Denial is not just a river in Africa, Sh0t!
Does your strip clubbing hobby ever come into conflict with your family preservation agenda?
Now THAT ^^was a stupid question! Did you think about this beforehand or just mentally high-five your boys? No, Baby Boy, it would represent a conflict only if my agency was actually located in an SC.
OTOH, I detect a trace of moral bias in your inquiry. Is your opinion of the sex industry that low? Given your political aspirations, you are one conflicted and pretentious individual to be posting pink and blue as frequently as you do... /:O
In closing, I look forward to your next string of Googled references and selective responses to nonthreatening questions. Let's have a real exchange when you've been around the block and let go of your cock...:D
I haven't made any declarations about your profession. I was relaying information about the smoldering "men's movement" gaining steam here. I don't know anything about caring for abandoned women and children. I really don't even know what you do actually. i think you may have mistaken what I was talking about.
Also, I was talking about you philosophically, not your profession. i was asking for your opinion, namely, do you think strip club habits undermine relatonships?
Only qualified champion, nope, but I think I bring a unique personality to the cause. I was waiting my whole life for a real cause to believe in. I joined the military partly thinking that was going to be it, but i was mistaken. I was born to be a zealot for something.
I've never had to worry about denial. i'm quite comfortable with what I am. I'm rather proud of myself actually.
---
Libertarianism is not liberTINEism, but I have no problems with the sex industry. I respect the hustle of the ladies involved in it. I look down on tricks however. i think prostitution and related vices should be more than legal. I don't ask others to accept it, however. I care more about the property rights and liberties of the people involved than the sex industry itself.
I'm welcome to a real exchange. That seems to be what we are having, to me.
Nicolina
12-12-2007, 05:04 PM
i was asking for your opinion, namely, do you think strip club habits undermine relatonships?
Fuck strip club habits, what about stripperweb habits?!?
Heck, even I sometimes feel like a stripperweb widow! :O
What do you guys tell your wives and GFs? That you're working? How pissed would they be if they read your posts and PMs????
////sorry, total threadjack. but hey, since my last threadjack didn't work (yet), i thought I'd try a new one...
(Actually, i'm thinking about starting a new thread for my last one. Budai, I was really hoping you might respond...)
A few girls I know, including one in particular yells at me for being on SW.
I show girls the site, especially my pussy eating thread. One even joined recently and is posting.
ColetteCalahan
12-12-2007, 06:31 PM
:rotfl: Denial is not just a river in Africa, Sh0t!
i was robbed! ;D
hahah. great minds, eh? i would just like to say that this thread, as far away from OP as it has gotten, is highly amusing. i wish i'd seen it back when people were actually responding to the article in question, not just further inflating sh0t's ego (:P )... i'd be interested to know what everyone thought about the lack of proposed solution in the piece. it was insightful and interesting, for sure, but certainly no call to arms- i saw no detailed/definitive plan of action whatsoever, simply a catchphrase (the black kkk) that, symbolic/representative as it may be, doesn't give anyone the tools to really progress anywhere.
so far, all this lofty debate has yielded, beyond a tangential discussion of sexism and sh0tism, is that birth control and education are damn good answers... what else?? short-term? long-term? the author speaks of "recapturing the imagination of youth..." how do you suggest that might happen?
i love me some tangents... but i thought the OP was extremely worthwhile.
I tried to go back there a few times.
Essentially, there really is no problem. Taylor most likely got what was coming to him. I'm totally fine with that. if anything, i think it represents that certain OTHER segments of our pollution should make good on their bravado.
It certainly isn't hip hops fault.
The biggest problems that affect black males stem from the government. And jewish women.
War on drugs, which is, purposefully or accidentally, more harmful to blacks than other segments because of different enforcement principles for different drugs
Affirmative action. hurts blacks, doesn't help them
Above mentioned cuckolding of men by family court system
various economic policies like minimum wage, overtime laws, social security, etc act as a bigger price control on black labor than on other people
stop being the guinea pigs of education theorists in the public education system
Blacks needs to stop thinking the government cares about them and needs to reject statist policies. most black politicians are bottom of the barrel as well.
And stay out of [public] school.
And, unfortunately, stay OUT of the military.
The moynihan report predicted all of this years ago.
Budai
12-13-2007, 03:54 AM
i was robbed! ;D
hahah. great minds, eh?
I owe you one, CC in Da LBC...;)
i wish i'd seen it back when people were actually responding to the article in question, not just further inflating sh0t's ego (:P )...
In 1998, astronomers in Berkeley, California discovered that the universe is expanding at an increasing rate--much like Sh0t's ego.
i'd be interested to know what everyone thought about the lack of proposed solution in the piece. it was insightful and interesting, for sure, but certainly no call to arms- i saw no detailed/definitive plan of action whatsoever, simply a catchphrase (the black kkk) that, symbolic/representative as it may be, doesn't give anyone the tools to really progress anywhere.
I agree, CC. What Jason W. addressed was the statistical probability that Taylor's killers were African American. Beyond that, he merely substantiated his rationale with references to the socioeconomic and political factors that created the climate for his forecast.
...sh0tism...
"Sh0tism"? Heh, more like "Sh0t-jism"...::)
so far, all this lofty debate has yielded, beyond a tangential discussion of sexism and sh0tism, is that birth control and education are damn good answers... what else?? short-term? long-term? the author speaks of "recapturing the imagination of youth..." how do you suggest that might happen?
I thought Optimist made some valid points at an early stage in this thread regarding what the young men categorized as "thugs" lack or crave, and she outlined some parameters for progress.
***Sh0t:
The following thought are 100% Google-free and based on my education and experience. Please refrain from superficial, testosterone-driven responses.***
When I read phrases like "recapturing the imagination of youth," I recognize that the author is speaking for himself and others fortunate enough to have sought gratification at the higher levels of for the majority of their lives.
IMO, what the author and Sh0t seem to have discounted--albeit for different reasons--is how the daily struggle for those who aren't granted their Physiological Needs (satisfaction of hunger & thirst) and Safety Needs (security, protection) detracts from their ability to meet their Social Needs (sense of belonging, love). Many of the young men who Sh0t and the author dismiss find gratification of their Social Needs in gangs. Having clawed their way up Maslow's pyramid, it's not surprising that at the next level of satisfaction--Esteem Needs (self-esteem, status, recognition)--such individuals place value on highly visible and material manifestations of status (i.e. "BLING").
I think author Jason Whitlock failed to recognize that the highest level of Maslow's Hierarchy (Self-Actualization) often becomes the degree to which social standing and "fuck you" money support one's ability to maintain and flaunt their elevated status. It's a trap because it paradoxically attracts the negative attention of law enforcement and law breakers. Ironically--whether driven by fear, greed or both--each side wishes to eliminate and assimilate the anomaly of the self-actualized "thug".
ColetteCalahan
12-13-2007, 04:40 AM
When I read phrases like "recapturing the imagination of youth," I recognize that the author is speaking for himself and others fortunate enough to have sought gratification at the higher levels of for the majority of their lives.
IMO, what the author and Sh0t seem to have discounted--albeit for different reasons--is how the daily struggle for those who aren't granted their Physiological Needs (satisfaction of hunger & thirst) and Safety Needs (security, protection) detracts from their ability to meet their Social Needs (sense of belonging, love). Many of the young men who Sh0t and the author dismiss find gratification of their Social Needs in gangs. Having clawed their way up Maslow's pyramid, it's not surprising that at the next level of satisfaction--Esteem Needs (self-esteem, status, recognition)--such individuals place value on highly visible and material manifestations of status (i.e. "BLING").
I think author Jason Whitlock failed to recognize that the highest level of Maslow's Hierarchy (Self-Actualization) often becomes the degree to which social standing and "fuck you" money support one's ability to maintain and flaunt their elevated status. It's a trap because it paradoxically attracts the negative attention of law enforcement and law breakers. Ironically--whether driven by fear, greed or both--each side wishes to eliminate and assimilate the anomaly of the self-actualized "thug".
Ahh, yes, the needs hierarchy- i remember first hearing/reading about it in my sociology of crime class at NU... made a lot of sense (understatement) and proves quite useful for understanding non-realist perspectives for int'l relations across cultures/borders, too...
I definitely agree (and think this is the best argument thus far) that an in-depth understanding of needs on a per-community level is necessary when it comes to finding an answer as to why "the black kkk" still reigns; such as the following: are basic nutritional needs being met? (communities that have solved this problem with 'urban organic' solutions, i.e. getting everyone to pitch in on a not-for profit, sustainable farm has decreased crime rates in said neighborhoods and increased interpersonal ties/fostered a basic sense of stability/safety); are people safe? (is there effective COMMUNITY policing in place? what may be done to improve crime rates, besides increase antagonism between local authority figures and community members by increasing police presence?); and of course, are people healthy? Is there a community clinic in the area, or other ways the under/uninsured may get their health needs met?
After this, looking at improving educational opportunities, business reinvestment, local economic redevelopment, etc... and also GETTING RID of burned-out, closed-down spaces.... areas that have large landscapes of economic decline have been proven to have statistically much higher crime rates- I'm sure part of this is psychological; seeing the lack of progress and opportunity in a community must be depressing as all hell if one faces it every day with no escape in sight.
Yes, Optimist certainly had some valid and insightful points (as did francesca & nic); not that i'm surprised about either, or would expect anything less... :P
I tried to go back there a few times.
Essentially, there really is no problem. Taylor most likely got what was coming to him. I'm totally fine with that. if anything, i think it represents that certain OTHER segments of our pollution should make good on their bravado.
It certainly isn't hip hops fault.
The biggest problems that affect black males stem from the government. And jewish women.
War on drugs, which is, purposefully or accidentally, more harmful to blacks than other segments because of different enforcement principles for different drugs
Affirmative action. hurts blacks, doesn't help them
Above mentioned cuckolding of men by family court system
various economic policies like minimum wage, overtime laws, social security, etc act as a bigger price control on black labor than on other people
stop being the guinea pigs of education theorists in the public education system
Blacks needs to stop thinking the government cares about them and needs to reject statist policies. most black politicians are bottom of the barrel as well.
And stay out of [public] school.
And, unfortunately, stay OUT of the military.
The moynihan report predicted all of this years ago.
I actually agree with most of your points. Less so on the cuckolding part. More so on the military part. And I don't think that most black people (at least ANY black person I've ever talked politics with... ) thinks the government (at least the current one) has "Our Nation's Black People: Community Redevelopment, Overcoming Structural Racism, and Re-capturing the Imagination of Youth" as Priority Numero Uno. far from it.... and to that, I would be VERY interested to hear Obama's response to this article. :P
Optimist
12-13-2007, 06:46 AM
Yeah, you really hit on what I didn't appreciate about the author. He was happy to throw a class of people under the bus under the cloak of righteousness and putting the dismissive smack down. He has the mike and is a leader now so why didn't he offer some leadership? This is also what I hated about Bill Cosby's rantings. I know it was designed to be a wake-up call but yelling about how simple it is to pull yourself up in this society is wrong. If you are born middle class or above with both parents in the home and emotionally healthy and financially stable it's a very simple task to stand up, get ahead, and blossom. Problem is he and Bill Cosby don't know the world these people come from.
White or black, most people have serious dysfunction in their family. Add in economic instability (which is the goal of most racism) and you have a recipe for total collapse. I sat and began to add the stats on the hurdles most families face and it was staggering! Add the rate of rape/molestation (1 in 4/5), parental alcoholism/drug addiction(1 in 4), mental illness(1 in 5), spousal abuse(1 in 4), physical deformity/dysfunction (like cancer) in our society and you see a different picture than the rosy one they paint. EVERYONE'S family is struck by at least one of the above. But worse still if you are poor, regardless of color you are more likely to have been raised in a family struck by MANY of the above simultaneously.
Imagine living with all of the above and you don't have the money for counseling, rehab, medicine, schooling etc. ( I added schooling because in many low income districts from Alabama to NYC there isn't money for building repairs, current books, or computers etc. due to the lopsided property tax based government funding). Add to this the fact that with both parents working looong irregular hours at multiple jobs there is little nurturing and supervision. Failure to thrive affects older children as well as babies. Humans NEED emotional nurturing to develop empathy, self-esteem, a sense of well being etc. or they become angry and/or withdrawn. That leads to having kids too early out of a desperate and real psychological need for love and a financial shackle that takes 18 years to lift. It leads to anti-social and ultimately criminal behavior and physical shackles in and later out of prison when society refuses to employ you. It's a MIRACLE when someone works their way out of that trailer park/ ghetto reality.
Even if you are middle or upper class by birth it is unusual to move up to the next class level. Our society is designed (consciously or not) to keep everyone in their place. Companies don't pay you what you are worth they pay according to supply and demand. They invest millions in candidates that will keep citizens financially unstable. A few will move ahead through the fluke of great talent like the author's or Mr. Cosby but most folks, hard working or not, well-meaning or not, will get left behind. It's not like there is a living wage in our country. You can work two jobs and be piss poor! So you make just enough but get hit with illness (physical or mental), or your dreamboat becomes an abusive mate, become a victim of crime etc. Now, you're behind and you fall further and further with each bit of predatory billing by the hospitals, predatory lending to keep up with your bills, no paid leave, babies to feed...... You get me.
Shame he didn't spend half his time writing about how that generation of thuggers can pull out of that angry destructive tailspin.
Obama is another quasi socialist black politician. He will give non answers as usual. i really can't see why there is such a big love affair with him. Sadly, the best black "leaders" tend to be comedians. humor lets they say the things that need to be said without causing as much uproar as if a politician said it.
"Thugs' have no hierarchy of needs problem. Most of them have food, have shelter, can avoid physical danger if they want to, have friends, probably a ton of women, etc. So the first three blocks are a not a problem. I would say most have decent self-esteem as well. Those without it really can't live that life. Not talking about the "disenfranchised in general.
Look at places like Appalachia and similar. they are in far direr straits usually.
A life's purpose? That may be the problem, but how many people of any subculture really feel like their life has a major purpose, outside of living for their children if they have any? I would say not too many. So nothing unique about them there.
I was a prime example. I was in a gang. But I also got to school on time. In fact, Brooklyn Tech, was a school for the smarter kids in the NYC public education system but it had one of the WORST gang problems. It was the smart kids who were not dirt, dirt poor who caused most of the trouble in the city. one of the most notorious gangs in NYC history, the Decepticons, was founded at Brooklyn Tech. Most street thugs in most cities are not homeless and facing starvation.
Gangs also aren't rescusing people fro lonliness in a good chunk of cases. mostly the gang members were your friends first, before you all form or join en masse when you get of age. We were the same 10 kids that played on the swings together as little kids. As we got to the right ages, we just banded together and replaced our cute beanies with bandanas.
Wanting "bling" is not a problem in the black community alone. A benz is a form of bling for a yuppie, as well as other trappings. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, ya know. People go overboard trying to find deeper "socioeconomic" meaning in everthing. Additionally, sometimes bad people are just bad people. Not everybody who looks like a thug is a bad guy.
The biggest problem with "our" youth is school. Public school was never conceived to be about education, but about social engineering. Blacks, unfortunately, tend to get a stronger dose of it than others because they tend to live in areas that are more "liberal" than others when it comes to education "reforms". Basically everything John Taylor Gatto writes about is applied an extra 30% when discussing black inner city youth.
Blacks would do better to just ignore truancy laws and try and home school or just find a job. If I knew at 15 what I know now, I would have never even finished high school, joined the military, OR went to college for either degree. i wasted too much time in school that i could have used to really learn and get an education.
As far as crime rates go, one major problem in black areas is the draconian gun control. I began carrying a pistol when I was about 14 and 12 years later, I still do, whether it is legal in my area or not. I have saved myself several times because of that. scholars like john lott andothers are often maligned by black leaders, but his research shows us the way in this area.
As far as economic development is concerned, black areas once agan are plagued by too much government. Labor regulation, zoning laws, usuary laws, licensing for various trades, union coercion with government blessing, etc. All usually magnified in traditionally black areas of problem. certainly was the case in NYC in the 90s, and many other cities I've looked into it for. things like welfare and unemployment insurance also create a disincentive to work as well.
Black also tend to live in high tax areas because of the plague of "social programs" they get afflicted with in the name of helping them.
What blacks(and most of america for that matter) need is a wholesale rejection of government anything, and to embrace libertarinaism and the free market. it is the salvation for all of mankind, not just black americans.
And yes, many blacks do see the government as a friend, despite the distrust of the more "big brother"-ish arms of it. The welfare office, the unemployment check, Affirmative action, the military as refuge, etc. it is not common black sentiment to ask for government to be scaled back anywhere I have seen. Anytime anything happens, there is a collective yell for politicians to "do something" where i would suggest they have done too much already. Blacks overwhelmingly vote democrat which is about the worse thing they can do. the republicans are no better as a whole but they do less damage in the areas blacks are mostly concerned with.
Black libertarians are fairly rare and much maligned if we show up anywhere and speak seriously. It's fun though.
If property rights were taught and respected as not just a way of not harming each other but as a way to benefit yourself, crime would decrease further. But to start with, the principle of "robbery via majority vote" has to be delegitimized.
added...
Cosby's from Phily, had all kinds of trouble in school, dropped out to work and joined the Navy. He knows probably better than most.
ColetteCalahan
12-13-2007, 07:27 AM
As far as economic development is concerned, black areas once agan are plagued by too much government...
I'm gonna challenge you on this one... I don't think big government plays ENOUGH of a role in traditionally black communities... and I think often corrupt city gov'ts/state laws play too much of one. I agree that labor/zoning/licensing laws align to have deleterious effects on communities... but you're forgetting something MAJOR.
Housing. Take Cabrini-Green, for example... one of the best-known "ghettos" in America that has only recently become a mixed-income attempt at redevelopment... When the Fed. Dept. of Housing & Urban Development took CB out of the hands of the corrupt Chicago Housing Authority (took over management of CHA in general... chicago has a horrible history of racist housing practices) crime rates dropped dramatically and new plans for redevelopment/transformation/community strengthening have been put in place... the CHA got a necessary slap in the face and has since worked hard to get its act together.
btw... i'm not in love with obama... i prefer hillary, polarizing as she may be.
Optimist
12-13-2007, 08:01 AM
^^^Good looking out! I was thinking about a family living in a home or apartment but "projects" are a joke. They're like a JAIL!
ColetteCalahan
12-13-2007, 08:12 AM
^^^Good looking out! I was thinking about a family living in a home or apartment but "projects" are a joke. They're like a JAIL!
http://static.flickr.com/29/63263589_bd7d3fbfb7.jpg
Definitely like a jail... really, really sad. yes, this is what CB looked like BEFORE big gov't stepped in. Not always the bad guy, eh, sh0t?
Speaking of housing and the projects... I'd be interested to see what a black-on-black crime frequency distribution table looked like across housing types and socioeconomic conditions... Is this "statistical" black kkk a result of extremely high frequencies in a small number of concentrations that skew the rest of the data??
HUD as an agency is a major target of my ire, probably one of the worst institutions we have going here. It's not doing such a good job in that great city near your hometown, lovely
Remember: Cabrini-Green was caused by big government in the first place. Public housing as an institution has been one of our major problems. Interfering in the housing market(via public housing, rent controls, property taxes, zoning laws that interfere with organic development, eminent domain, and on and on) is one of the most hard-felt interventions. economic law doesn't need suspend itself because people believe "housing is a right".
It's a need, but not a right. To build public housing, somebody else's rights have to be trampled on.
Have you seen Gangsta City? It was about Cabrini-Green. It's pretty terrible. I couldn't go near Cabrini during my visits to chicago. Wasnt too friendly with GDs. Probably could now since so many of the former population has been displaced, for better or worse.
Cabrini-Green's story is still on going. Was the recent demolition and displacement a good thing? Some former residents don't think so.
Government agencies never really get slaps in the face. The bureaucrats still get paid. Unlike private businesses, they can't really go out of business, which is the proper way to remove bad administration of property and resources. No profit/loss test for government ensures it won't be efficient or usually too concerned with the needs of its "customers."
And yes, the government is always the bad guy. Sometimes it does some good, even criminals are nice to their families, typically.
The demolition of the former buildings of CG didn't come without cost remember. Many people were displaced and many tenants/former tenents or protesting it. I'm quite familiar with projects and public housing, and gentrification of them, too. Like what's going on at CG. That's the problem with government anything. The people affected are at the whim of the tide of politics. Bureaucrats decided that lakeside property would be better used by something else.
Hillary is my worst-case scenario actually. My best-case would be an empty office, but little chance of that.
Optimist
12-13-2007, 08:33 AM
Damn.... It actually just gave me agita looking at it.
Brilliant hypothesis on how the numbers stack up from one community to another. It's anecdotal but in my Dad's largely black hometown in the country there's very little crime. I always thought it was because it's more pleasant to be broke out in the clean fresh countryside with rivers to fish and woods to hunt and no neighbors casually lying in wait for you because too much land separates each family.
francescadubois
12-13-2007, 08:42 AM
I can agree with your 8:58pm post, for the most part anyway.
Obama is another quasi socialist black politician. He will give non answers as usual. i really can't see why there is such a big love affair with him.
I think people really like Obama because he is the first black candidate that could actually be taken seriously (even though many acknowledge that he won’t win). He’s “clean, neat, and articulate” :) We don’t see a lot of that in the media. We see 50 cent, we see Flavor Flav, we see the black criminal on the six o’ clock news. I think more than anything, Obama is a breath of fresh air.
"Thugs' have no hierarchy of needs problem. Most of them have food, have shelter, can avoid physical danger if they want to, have friends, probably a ton of women, etc. So the first three blocks are a not a problem. I would say most have decent self-esteem as well. Those without it really can't live that life. Not talking about the "disenfranchised in general.
What are you talking about? Oh, wait, I think you’re identifying yourself as a thug, so that’s why your description sounds like more ego trippin’. The thug you’re talking about is one out of hundreds. He’s the top dope boy, and just because he’s the top dope boy doesn’t mean he ain’t fucked up. Oh, and those “friends”? Let’s see where those friends go when he gets down on his luck (i.e., no money, permanent physical disability, after he gets out of jail and needs to get back on his feet legally, etc.). Most “thugs” have a bad paying job, are in and out of jail, having kids left and right, and are being plain disrespectful to the community. And if they ARE drug dealers, they’re mere corner boys who ain’t gettin’ paid shit. (Ever read Freakonomics?)
The thug can only avoid physical danger for so long, particularly if he doesn’t change his life around and attempt to live like a law-abiding citizen. What does having a ton of women have to do with having a fulfilling life? Sure that’s fun for all of us for a while, but eventually one would have to worry about the strange men/women he jumps in and out of bed with. Keeping too much company like that will lead to trouble eventually, especially for a “thug” (e.g., chick could set him up, get him killed or turned in). Nobody is in their right mind to defend themselves appropriately when they’re having an orgasm.
Blacks would do better to just ignore truancy laws and try and home school or just find a job. If I knew at 15 what I know now, I would have never even finished high school, joined the military, OR went to college for either degree. i wasted too much time in school that i could have used to really learn and get an education.
You’re not serious. And what, pray tell, should BLACKS (of all people) be doing besides going to school when the global workforce is making education a prerequisite to be a goddamn administrative assistant? Life ain’t fair, but the average person NEEDS that piece of paper to live a halfway decent life. If anything, more Blacks need to be in school learning how to swim in this global economy.
It certainly isn't hip hops fault.
Actually, I think hip hop has a LOT to do with this, actually. It encourages our very shitty, destructive black pop culture. Yeah, I said it. It’s fuckin’ terrible.
The biggest problems that affect black males stem from the government. And jewish women.
/:O Was that supposed to be funny?
I don't think it's population density. If you take cities like NYC, Detroit, Chicago, DC and just look a them in time, we see crime rates are all over the place, even while population densities are moving in their own directions.
That argument has been made and unmade quite a bit actually. The Journal of Black studies is forever talking about topics like that.
One problem is that urban areas tend to have different POLITICS than more rural areas, especially where blacks are.
When blacks moved in large droves to the northern cities during and post-war, crime didn't really follow as dramatic as when politics in major big cities changed a lot during the 60s and beyond.
But why take him seriously is my question. His politics are no different from the usual and what he advocates is NOT the solution, in my view. I don't care how they look or how neat and clean they are, but their politics.
Yes I have read Freakonomics. not a huge fan of it though, especially the Abortion and Crime idea.
Being a thug is usually a function of age, if anything. Most just grow out of it. Child labor laws make sure a lot of younger kids sell more drugs than the otherwise would, as well.
I'm quite serious about school.
Experience trumps education in a lot of cases, and in today's world, there are even more options to make money without schooling, if you are skilled. So many jobs today don't require you to be anybody's employee, you can deal directly with customers of a service or good. People just rarely consider these options because the birth-school-wage cycle is so engrained in us.
I would recommend people start working and earning money and then go to school later once they have a better idea of what they want. going to school for the sake of going to school is silly, yet advocated. You don't need a college degree to be a secretary, believing you do is a problem that afflicts many. It's a bad investment to spend so much money on college just to be saddled with high debt from student loans and the pay isn't dramatic.
Still not hip hop. People aren't THAT dumb. Most people listening to hip-hop are surburban whites anyway.
As for the thug part, I addressed half your complaints. The "in and out of jail" portion is directly related to the drug war to begin with. Throw in other non-crimes like gun possession, "conspiracy" charges and the like, and you get rid of most of the people that don't deserve to be in jail in the first place.
What does having a ton of women have to do with having a fulfilling life? Nothing, maybe everything, but sexual needs are in Maslow, which is why I mentioned it.
ColetteCalahan
12-13-2007, 09:06 AM
Sh0t... your 'post-war' references and talk of the beginning of CB happened nearly 75 yrs ago. Although I understand historical trends are important to analyze for an accurate picture of current conditions... this constant reference of events WAY past just doesn't add it. CB was the baby of big-gov't... sure.... back in the day.... before black people GOT there... and it was named for an italian. So what's your point of bringing it up in reference to 'big gov't hurts black people?' It was meant to be inexpensive housing for immigrants... and used to be called "Little Sicily."
Yes, HUD sucks- SOMEtimes. In this case, it was the state level gov't that needed to change. And although there was some displacement, much controversy, and argument over the demolition over much of CB, MOST of CB's residents have been moved to other, better, affordable housing nearby... it wasn't only for the purpose of gentrification (only 20% of the new houses are geared towards the higher end luxury market... the rest are lower-income or market-rate), nor was "redevelopment" a euphemism; I believe it was fairly genuine. And compared to the standard of living/homicide rates/crime statistics/underground economy that had existed in CB.... is there really any comparison? There have hardly been any problems of that nature since the transformation/redevelopment projects began.
I was unaware of Buffalo's problems; haven't had much interest in investigating there... but I know Albany's had its share of problems, and Rochester, my hometown, has its own spotty history with racism and segregation, esp. in housing.
Past is prologue and leads to present.
For example, much of what we are afflicted with today in terms of government action started quite a while ago. FDR caused a good chunk of it. Social Security, for example has been around since the 30s and is a major part of the problem, with black and otherwise. The incentives it creates(and destroys) has lead to a decline in capital and social bonds with all families,especially, but not just, blacks.
In CG's case, one of its unique qualities was that it was a housing project in the middle of what was to become very nice neighborhoods. The drug dealers of CG often serviced the clientel living in Lincoln Park and other bayside neighborhoods. Government planning leads to odd quirks like that and counters the organic and holistic way neighborhoods would evovle and grow.
most of NYC's housing projects were built a long time ago too, but have similar mechanics in terms fo why they ended up so bad.
It's not so much that CG has a smidgen of luxury homes, it's that many of the former residents got displaced. Some were lucky and got to move into those subsidized townhouses and the like in the new developments. not without cost however, as a few articles mentioned the splittng up of families, espeically in one case where a woman left her husband because the new subsidized housing drug tested and they were sure the husband wouldn't pass. So in that case, a father who was previously in the home now won't be because of this. Is it better for hte kid to grow up in that townhouse or would his father in-house have been better? I don't know.
Very few housing developments were created with blacks in mind. Wasn't the case in NYC either.
edit for edit!
The redevelopment is genuine, it genuinely exists. Gentrification may be a bit of a smear term, but I think it is applicable here. It's a bad or a good thing depending who you favor. I favor neither of the sides in the CG story, my solution would have been quite different.
One major reason for the lack of problems now is that a lot of the former residents are gone.
Today, only about 5,000 of the original Cabrini-Green residents remain. The other 10,000 public housing tenants have been effectively driven out of Chicago to the outer suburbs and other cities and states, because they cannot afford to return to the new Cabrini-Green.
Got curious and read this thread and more:
In terms of crime, it seems all that happened was the diffusing of the problem to the other areas of Chicago and even to some surburbs of Chicago like Dolton, which apparently used to be a very nice place until Daley started shipping chicago's unwanted there.
This causes white flight in THOSE areas, at least among those who can afford to leave. The result is that the poorer in those areas are now stuck with more hardened inner city criminals among them, and those smaller towns and cities have less resources to combat it.
Dumping the problem in Dolton's lap wasn't a solution IMO.
ColetteCalahan
12-13-2007, 10:11 AM
dude... your information comes from a poster called BlOOdCLot? who cites Wikipedia as his chief source???
sh0t... that's low... even for you.... :P
Try something like THIS, from an editorial, rather than a forum with little boys named bloodclot.
dude... your information comes from a poster called BlOOdCLot? who cites Wikipedia as his chief source???
sh0t... that's low... even for you.... :P
Try something like THIS, from an editorial, rather than a forum with little boys named bloodclot.
Already had that referenced, it was linked to in one of my above links.
The posters speak the truth however.
Crime is going down a bit in Chicago, rising in the outer cities.
Ut oh, thread made pointless by Ja Rule. He has the answer:
ColetteCalahan
12-13-2007, 10:28 AM
Umm... I fail to see your link. And with the amount you post, it might have gotten lost in the milieu... }:D
uhh.... not surprised crime is up in the areas around chicago... shit, have YOU ever been to Gary, Ind.? it SUCKS! Most of these areas are in total economic decline... the manufacturing industries have left and in their absence a great vacuum has made progress quite difficult. I don't think the chicago mayor is the only one to blame... or that it even has much, if anything to do with race. I think rising crime rates around the city (and I'm speaking about previously successful places that have been in a slump for a while now) have more to do with structural forces and the overall shift in the national economy as we move from a manufacturing to a service-oriented country.
I don't think race is a major factor in most things to be honest. It is quite overrated.
A major reason for the flight of manufacturing job loss is...guess who? But there is nothing sacred about manufacturing jobs, though. If we have a comparative advantage in service industries, we should adapt to it(we don't really, we are still one of the most heavily capitalized places on earth per worker).
A changing economy, and ours has been upward even if slower than previously, shouldn't really cause more crime. The problem has been in other areas that have also grown, creating more incentives for it. We know quite well that poor areas can have low crime, and the American version of "poor" is not poor by some standards.
The search for small causes for small segments(blacks are still quite the minority despite how large my ego is), is always going to be a problem, but there are some HUGE and glaring things that can be addressed. The Drug War, to harp on it again, is going to be the biggest problem with relation to crime. Pareto whispers in my ear that we should start there, perhaps.
It's a delicate issue though.
To shift to a less glamour topic, non-violent or drug crimes of various types affect blacks as well. Some aren't labeled as crime, but to my ethics, they are. Blacks are overrepresented in tersm of the stealth robbery of inflation, for one example. Blacks also suffer a lot because of the endorsement of union crime by the government.
I solidly believe that personal protection laws and such are a major problem because they disempower potential(and future) victims. I think that problem is pretty well understood, but the implications are not politically correct, at current.
francescadubois
12-13-2007, 10:44 AM
But why take him seriously is my question. His politics are no different from the usual and what he advocates is NOT the solution, in my view. I don't care how they look or how neat and clean they are, but their politics.
Yeah, but that’s American politics for you. Do we ever really deal with the issue? Nine times out of ten, I’d say no. But that’s Americans’ fault. We want our politicians to entertain us, not to do what’s best. I just was throwing out a few reasons why people like Obama. :shrug:
Yes I have read Freakonomics. not a huge fan of it though, especially the Abortion and Crime idea.
I thought that concept was right on the money, actually.
Being a thug is usually a function of age, if anything. Most just grow out of it. Child labor laws make sure a lot of younger kids sell more drugs than the otherwise would, as well.
No they don’t grow out of it! I can’t tell you how many 50-60 year old black men (I’m on the east coast remember) are out hear wearing fucking football jerseys and cornrows!! When I was in Philly, there were so many it almost seemed normal.
And it’s the child labor laws that make kids into drug dealers?!! You really are fucking crazy. I need you to explain that one to me.
Experience trumps education in a lot of cases, and in today's world, there are even more options to make money without schooling, if you are skilled. So many jobs today don't require you to be anybody's employee, you can deal directly with customers of a service or good. People just rarely consider these options because the birth-school-wage cycle is so engrained in us.
Yeah, that sounds good, but to get your foot into a lot of places to GET any experience, you need some education. I hear you talkin’ shit, but you HAVE the paper as well as military experience to back you up. Are you gonna sit here and tell me that you could be in the same spot you are professionally without them? I don’t buy it. And customers don’t want anyone to tell them, “Well, no, I don’t have experience or education, but I’ll do ____ for you for the same amount of money that you would give the experienced and/or educated competitor.” So how would that person get started, let alone get ahead?
I would recommend people start working and earning money and then go to school later once they have a better idea of what they want. going to school for the sake of going to school is silly, yet advocated. You don't need a college degree to be a secretary, believing you do is a problem that afflicts many. It's a bad investment to spend so much money on college just to be saddled with high debt from student loans and the pay isn't dramatic.
You backtrackin’ now? I thought you said we didn’t need school at all. So which one is it? I do agree, that it’s not a bad idea to try to get a job and figure out your passion, but once again it’s a catch 22, because you can’t get many jobs at all without an A.A. in most cities.
And no one goes to college to be a secretary, but a lot of decent paying secretarial positions require that you have some schooling.
Child labor laws prevent younger kids from working in jobs that might otherwise want and take. This makes various types of "crime" attractive. Child labor laws are good feel good measures, especially if the need for a working child is non-existant, but not every family has that luxury.
Minimum wage laws do a lot to keep children and teenagers unemployed as well.
Abortion and the low crime? Since Feakonomics came out, quite a lot has come out to counter that point(among others). Little slice of it here:
I'm associated with Austrian economics myself and i tend to always have gut feelings about econometric types. usually it pans out.
We all know some older dudes like that, but just having corn rows and wearing sports jerseys doesn't make you a thug or gangster. Lots of guys wear jerseys anyway. Some are called "sports fans", i suspect.
Without college and the military time, I would be much richer today, so yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm leaving my job next month to do what I would have done 10 years ago, if I had been exposed to the idea.
One of my main points was that many people could be better served by getting experience instead of school. There are jobs "below entry level" that people look down upon as adults, but they would be great for kids/youth and they would probably prepare people far better than school. In computers, I know that's the case.
No backtracking at all. My main thrust is at the youth, those gong to school just because "that's what you're supposed to do" But that's not the case necessarily.
more after some bugs fixed
adding this one related to Wilson and freakonomics
I'm tender on the issue of abortion as voluntary eugenics, even though I and very much "pro choice".
francescadubois
12-13-2007, 11:22 AM
Child labor laws prevent younger kids from working in jobs that might otherwise want and take. This makes various types of "crime" attractive. Child labor laws are good feel good measures, especially if the need for a working child is non-existant, but not every family has that luxury.
Minimum wage laws do a lot to keep children and teenagers unemployed as well.
Um, kids don’t need to be working. Period. It is too easy to exploit them, abuse them, etc. If kids were allowed to work, the government would have to be involved for their welfare. There are some sick and crooked people out here, and that type of free for all capitalism brings out the rotten fuck in a lot of people. I guarantee it’d do more harm than good.
Abortion and the low crime? Since Feakonomics came out, quite a lot has come out to counter that point(among others). Little slice of it here:
http://www.isteve.com/abortion.htm
No, sh0t. I’m not clicking on anymore of your links. That shit is annoying. Why can’t you speak for yourself? Everyone else gets on here and argues their point. Why do you think we should clink on your links to read the responses of others? Google is not good rebuttal, brotha. Duke it out like everyone else.
We all know some older dudes like that, but just having corn rows and wearing sports jerseys doesn't make you a thug or gangster. Lots of guys wear jerseys anyway. Some are called "sports fans", i suspect.
Maybe not, but it IS testimony to an overwhelming number of black men suffering from arrested development.
Without college and the military time, I would be much richer today, so yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm leaving my job next month to do what I would have done 10 years ago, if I had been exposed to the idea.
Since I don’t know what the actual job is, I can’t really argue with you on that, but I’ll say that 10 years ago the market may have not been ready for your business venture (or whatever it is). Just a thought.
One of my main points was that many people could be better served by getting experience instead of school. There are jobs "below entry level" that people look down upon as adults, but they would be great for kids/youth and they would probably prepare people far better than school. In computers, I know that's the case.
No backtracking at all. My main thrust is at the youth, those gong to school just because "that's what you're supposed to do" But that's not the case necessarily.
Well, like I said before, kids don’t need to be working. Also, I think you are thinking that your industry’s conditions are on par with the market at as a whole, and technology is a totally different animal. So you really are comparing apples to oranges. If someone isn’t good at/doesn’t want to do tech, then what you’re saying doesn’t necessarily apply. But then again, it’s all about you, isn’t it? :rotfl:
And stop thrusting at everything please.
Well, exposition needs data unless we are deducing from a priori, so I link to relevent things. I could re-type out everything from the issue with Levitt, but suffice to say, he has major issues with his I just figured you might be interested in it.
To sum it up, no, abortion did not cause a major crime decrease. So the idea is at best inconclusive, if not outright wrong and dishonest.
Who says kids don't need to be working? Why not? Work teaches a great many valuable lessons that can help in their development, they can also learn skills in the process, have exposure to people of varying ages, have a sense of worth from being productive, earn money to help support themsleves and their family or just spending money for psp games, etc.
I think there are probably better lessons to be learned from early work experiene than junior high school.
I fully recognize there are some career paths were gateways are impossible to get around, but if people want to just work and have a good career without necessarly following a specific path, there are better ways. The incidence of people working jobs nowhere related to their degree tells us that a good chunk of people are not flowing out of schools into jobs relevent to their education. A lot of people follow the money, not necessarily a calling or preference.
francescadubois
12-13-2007, 01:00 PM
Well, exposition needs data unless we are deducing from a priori, so I link to relevent things. I could re-type out everything from the issue with Levitt, but suffice to say, he has major issues with his I just figured you might be interested in it.
That’s all fine and dandy, but you should make your OWN claim and THEN post your link(s). And, anyway, you’re still using Levitt to speak for you. I just feel like you like to post shit and don’t ever sit back and digest what’s being said and respond to it appropriately because you’re so busy trying to piss on your intellectual territory.
Who says kids don't need to be working? Why not? Work teaches a great many valuable lessons that can help in their development, they can also learn skills in the process, have exposure to people of varying ages, have a sense of worth from being productive, earn money to help support themsleves and their family or just spending money for psp games, etc.
Sh0t, do you read what you write? You basically said that children should be working instead of going to school, but they can’t because of child labor laws. Like I said, children (not talking about 16 and up) should not be allowed to work because it is too easy too exploit them. Once they are about 16 years old, then yes, a part time job is wonderful and would teach them a lot, but I don’t believe working is more important than school in the formative years.
The incidence of people working jobs nowhere related to their degree tells us that a good chunk of people are not flowing out of schools into jobs relevent to their education. A lot of people follow the money, not necessarily a calling or preference.
Well, thank you, Captain Obvious. The degree is the door-opener, the thing that gets people to look your way. You still need it. Life’s a bitch.
No, it's a door opener for some professions, helpful in some more, useless in some others. There is a glut of college-educated people. At the same time, many other strategies are ignored by most because they don't have the establishment's blessing yet.
The age of 16 is quite old enough, I was thinking far younger than that. Its not about exploitation either. In fact, one of the of the major pushers for ever longer and longer schooling(plus truancy), minimum wage, and child labor laws came from labor unions trying to keep child from competition with them on the labor market. Forced school and child labor laws THEMSELVES were put in place to exploit children(who don't have much political power).
Child labor was a way many households raised their comfort level, plus it was productive for the children. If students can type papers, which they will be doing in junior high school at the latest, they can perform data entry jobs, not to mention a whole host of other kinds of non-computer based work.
I was linking to stuff AGAINST Levitt's work. actually Namely, the idea that abortion legalization prevented crime(inconclusive at best).
ColetteCalahan
12-13-2007, 01:51 PM
I just feel like you like to post shit and don’t ever sit back and digest what’s being said and respond to it appropriately because you’re so busy trying to piss on your intellectual territory.
Said so very succinctly... sh0t, one of the main reasons why people give up on debating you is not because they agree with/defer to you or think you have 'won,' but because you're really not that fun a debate partner. The constant one-upping gets really old, really fast; if someone has a valid point, not only do you refuse to acknowledge it, but you'll somehow incorporate it into your own post to make it seem like you came up with it/are more knowledgeable on a subject... or, you'll just continue to fight them on something. It just gets tiresome. I was interested in reading your 'women' thread on blue- and gave up after a page. It's exhausting to read endless backtalk instead of an actual give-and-take debate.
I was just also thinking about another angle of the black urban housing issue. Zoning laws and similar were mentioned before, but what's often not said is how certain construction legislation makes building low cost housing very unattractive for homebuilders. "Luxury" home building is so fast rising now in many areas because the profit from building cheap, quality housing has been legislated against pretty strongly.
This was one side effect of rent control, but it takes a myriad of forms today. As I drove around San Diego's downtown for a bit to get a hero, almost all the new condo buildings are labeld as Luxury, a sight I believe is repeated in many cities.
These little subtle side-effects of economic policies can be quite insidious and sometimes not accidental, I believe.
Budai
12-13-2007, 05:31 PM
No, sh0t. I’m not clicking on anymore of your links. That shit is annoying. Why can’t you speak for yourself? Everyone else gets on here and argues their point. Why do you think we should clink on your links to read the responses of others? Google is not good rebuttal, brotha. Duke it out like everyone else.
...But then again, it’s all about you, isn’t it? :rotfl:
And stop thrusting at everything please.
I just feel like you like to post shit and don’t ever sit back and digest what’s being said and respond to it appropriately because you’re so busy trying to piss on your intellectual territory.
Said so very succinctly... sh0t, one of the main reasons why people give up on debating you is not because they agree with/defer to you or think you have 'won,' but because you're really not that fun a debate partner. The constant one-upping gets really old, really fast; if someone has a valid point, not only do you refuse to acknowledge it, but you'll somehow incorporate it into your own post to make it seem like you came up with it/are more knowledgeable on a subject...
Well folks, it's been illuminative. Perhaps we can resume the discussion after Baby Boy's priapism subsides...
:worship: All hail Sh0t, The Mighty Threadkiller!!! :worship:
Budai
12-16-2007, 11:37 PM
Thanks for your patience, Nicolina!
I was waiting for the dust to settle--and my hyena mentality to abate--before resuming this thread...;)
I remember being in school. I was always a good student and I used to hear stuff like "Damn Tim, why do you always answer so many questions in class? Are you trying to act white?"
You know, I hear this a lot, and I think it's a huge problem...
Is it a willful refusal to emulate the fucked-up oppressor?
What do you guys think?
For statistical reasons alone, I don't believe that the dumbing down of Black students represents "a willful refusal to emulate the fucked-up oppressor".
If you consider the classic "bell curve" distribution of grades, most of the letter marks received by students in a given classroom are B's & C's, with F's and A's being earned by individuals at opposite, rarefied ends of the continuum. Given their minority status in an adequately integrated school setting, Black students would presumably be emulating just as many "F" students as "A" students...
Is it caused by the unconscious but destructive acceptance of the deep racist messages that pervade our culture?
For generations, slaves were kept “ignorant” as to the facts of the real world, sometimes not even knowing the year of their birth, preventing the knowledge of a captive’s true age. Over time, as America moved "beyond" slavery, this intellectual deprivation was logically attributed to low intelligence in Blacks versus a prevailing, systemic lack of access to academic resources.
Is it a form of self-hatred or a form of self-preservation?
I can only speak from personal experience because I wrestled with both self-hatred and self-preservation during the course of my American education. As a multi-racial student who was dismissed at one time or another with terms like "mongrel," "half-breed" or "albino" by Black, White, Latino and Asian classmates alike, I was compelled to excel as an individual rather than as a member of a particular race.
Is it self-destructive behavior resulting from untreated, unresolved cultural PTSD, passed down through generations from way back when, and accumulating new layers as American racism changes form?
"Crabs in a basket," "Rocking the boat," "Fear of a Black Planet", etc. The theories for this phenomenon are abundant...
IMO, statements like "Damn Tim, why do you always answer so many questions in class? Are you trying to act white?" represent efforts by classmates of all races to acknowledge and suppress the unease they experience when the academic stereotype of the slow-witted Black student is vaporized. I believe that it's disconcerting for some (not all!) Black students to watch a Black classmate challenge that convention while raising the bar for students of all races in that classroom.
francescadubois
12-17-2007, 11:56 AM
Hey Nic,
Sorry, I was moving to a new place, so I couldn't answer. I agree with what Budai said, and also being biracial, I think you are more driven to be an individual since you don't belong to any one race in particular. I must say though, that a lot of people will tell you that they don't acknowledge the black part of you at all, since you are attractive and/or smart.
Also, I think that AA culture today is becoming quite destructive, particularly for young AA males. A lot of people today have totally internalized that whole hip-hop culture i.e., it's all about me, fuck these hoes, it's all about the benjamins (and may I add that most of these guys think on a VERY small scale when it comes to money and wealth), I can beat anybody, I'm the shit, etc.
So, because of this, many of these AA professional women feel that they will never marry because destructive AA culture tells them to take what they can get in a brotha, to marry down to an AA man with a lower socioeconomic status (ha!!), to not go outside the race and be unfaithful to the AA community ::)
I could go on for days, but since I agreed with Budai I just wanted to add this part.
RandomUser
12-17-2007, 01:48 PM
Sh0t reminds me of an old friend. Young, Black, extremely intelligent, and very self centered. Like Bobby Fischer the chess champion. There is some good there but it has to be refined a little.
I entered the military at age 17. Pretty young, pretty naive. Almost all of my sargents were older black men with experience in war. To a T, all of them mentored me in the ways of the military professionally without regard to race. These lessons stayed with me a long time. Yes there was black culture expressed. They made fun of me when I expressed myself in similiar ways. But people are people. These old 23 year olds meant a lot to me. I see much less of their type in everyday society.
Then on to college, while yes college does delay money making and exagerate partying it does have a place in broadening a persons mind. One can do it on ones own, but you would make less mistakes by emulating and digesting what someone else has to say along the same lines. It's not for everyone though. But for most it is. An example would be stripping. There is a lot to learn there about people. Judging human character is one of the most valuable assets a person can obtain. Most Ph'd's are helpless in discerning peoples motives unless it is from a computer in an ivory tower.
What is it? Two Thirds of the population is overweight? While it probably is well to find a fit mate for procreation and spare tires probably limit the life span, being overweight is just a state of mind. It hides aggression and fear. It's a visible sign. It doesn't mean a heavy person is incompatible with sh0t. Thinking of oneself as better than everyone else is in a way having a "fat head" and is just as unappealing in this situation for narrow thinkers. I think this railing about unattractive overweight people everywhere is an exaggeration. I would consider Oprah attractive for her focus. And it Sh0t were to find an intelligent overweight funny woman that he wasn't threatened by, I imagine he could develop an attraction for her and be quite productive and wise.
The welfare society I grew up in is a prison for most people. It leads to all sorts of bad habits. You become dependent on Big Government and lose your edge. But it makes the government happy and goals and deadlines are met. People congratulate themselves and slap themselves on the back for their charity and good works. While the misery remains. If you want to be successful, you don't want to be on welfare ever. It's a weight around your life.
Whatever black society or any other grouping is today. Kids shouldn't be left running around unattended and undirected. There needs to be an assertion of masculine force to match feminine nurturing. Sometimes women provide both. My observation today is that Hip-hop actually provides one of the few natural masculine outlets after sports. Men need to drink, swear and gamble on one hand and be providers that get their egos stroked on the other hand. A man needs to learn how to handle risk and be kind.
RandomUser
12-17-2007, 01:57 PM
As a funny side note. I am in mandatory Social Justice classes this month. In it skin color is defined as the degree from the equator ones skin is exposed to the sun, race has no genetic component. Cultural groupings exhibit strengths and weaknesses. We are essentially all "people of color" Some of us are equatorilists, others are 45 degreers. It reminds me a lot of Dr. Suess "The Sneetches"
Budai
12-19-2007, 05:37 PM
...An example would be stripping. There is a lot to learn there about people. Judging human character is one of the most valuable assets a person can obtain. Most Ph'd's are helpless in discerning peoples motives unless it is from a computer in an ivory tower.
Agreed, RU...
Many dancers can instinctively read verbal/nonverbal cues and conduct on-the-spot psychosocial assessments several times during the course of their work shifts. Judging a customer's willingness and ability to pay for their time is an intuitive gift that classroom experiences don't typically transmit.
While it probably is well to find a fit mate for procreation and spare tires probably limit the life span, being overweight is just a state of mind. It hides aggression and fear. It's a visible sign. It doesn't mean a heavy person is incompatible with sh0t. Thinking of oneself as better than everyone else is in a way having a "fat head" and is just as unappealing in this situation for narrow thinkers...
IMO, in addition to the defense of compensation via overeating, you're describing the psychological myopia of denial. If being overweight "hides aggression and fear," then Sh0t's arrogance--or "fat head" ;) --may shield him and others from the recognition of those same qualities within themselves.
People congratulate themselves and slap themselves on the back for their charity and good works. While the misery remains. If you want to be successful, you don't want to be on welfare ever. It's a weight around your life.
You said it first. The U.S. welfare system still teaches disadvantaged young women that given dire circumstances and dwindling opportunities, their remaining single, pregnant and unemployed can reap the maximum benefits. Concurrently, an increasing number of prisons are being built by a smug patriarchy that dismisses addiction as a moral infirmity and regards poverty as a transmitted disease of the urban/rural proletariat. /:O
My observation today is that Hip-hop actually provides one of the few natural masculine outlets after sports. Men need to drink, swear and gamble…
Does this mean that Jay-Z is the Papa Joe Kennedy of the New Millenium? ;D
Nicolina
12-21-2007, 08:19 PM
Thanks for your patience, Nicolina!
thanks for the answer!!! Sorry I didn't respond sooner, i was finishing a semester's worth of schoolwork in a week! :O
For statistical reasons alone, I don't believe that the dumbing down of Black students represents "a willful refusal to emulate the fucked-up oppressor".
If you consider the classic "bell curve" distribution of grades, most of the letter marks received by students in a given classroom are B's & C's, with F's and A's being earned by individuals at opposite, rarefied ends of the continuum. Given their minority status in an adequately integrated school setting, Black students would presumably be emulating just as many "F" students as "A" students...
That's a very good point. I suppose I meant not emulating the actual performance of the fucked-up oppressor, but the perceived values of the oppressor.
John McWhorter talks a lot about the plague of "anti-intellectualism" as a self-destructive force in black America...but I must say that I think anti-intellectualism plagues American culture as a whole--it's hardly unique to black folks. I grew up trying to act dumber than I am; there's a perception that a girl can't be both sexually attractive and smart, and I was always kind of torn between which was more important to me. The stereotype of the nerd is not a particularly flattering one in any American subculture.
I don't agree with a lot of what McWhorter has to say, though he makes some interesting observations... (He wrote "Losing the Race" and "Winning the Race"...I believe he's a professor of linguistics.)
For generations, slaves were kept “ignorant” as to the facts of the real world, sometimes not even knowing the year of their birth, preventing the knowledge of a captive’s true age. Over time, as America moved "beyond" slavery, this intellectual deprivation was logically attributed to low intelligence in Blacks versus a prevailing, systemic lack of access to academic resources.
I just wrote a big long paper called "Disremembered and Unaccounted For: African-Americans, Cultural Trauma, and the Literature of Ambiguous Loss..." So, I've been thinking about the concept of cultural trauma a lot.
i read a book called, "Cultural Trauma: Slavery and the Formation of African American Identity," which was interesting....But then I found this other book called "Ambiguous Loss: Learning to Live with Unresolved Grief." Ambiguous loss refers to an uncertain loss (say, a son who is MIA, and you don't know if he's dead or alive, or a parent with Alzheimers, who is still physically present, but no longer psychologically present as the person you knew and loved...etc.) Ambiguous loss is apparently more devastating than other kinds of loss, because it's so difficult to grieve.
Anyhow, I have this hypothesis that in some ways, the ambiguous loss of cultural identity was an even more devastating trauma than that of slavery...or at least, more difficult to collectively resolve and recover from.
I dunno. There is a LOT of reference to ambiguous loss in the literature...And in some ways, Song of Solomon seems like a metaphor for the whole experience.
k, i haven't slept in days and im a little delirious, so don't mind me and my goofy theories.
I can only speak from personal experience because I wrestled with both self-hatred and self-preservation during the course of my American education. As a multi-racial student who was dismissed at one time or another with terms like "mongrel," "half-breed" or "albino" by Black, White, Latino and Asian classmates alike, I was compelled to excel as an individual rather than as a member of a particular race.
Yes, I can see where that would be a natural response.
"Crabs in a basket," "Rocking the boat," "Fear of a Black Planet", etc. The theories for this phenomenon are abundant...
IMO, statements like "Damn Tim, why do you always answer so many questions in class? Are you trying to act white?" represent efforts by classmates of all races to acknowledge and suppress the unease they experience when the academic stereotype of the slow-witted Black student is vaporized. I believe that it's disconcerting for some (not all!) Black students to watch a Black classmate challenge that convention while raising the bar for students of all races in that classroom.
You probably have something there.
Again, though, when I think about it, white kids get shit for being smart or studious as well--maybe especially if they don't happen to fit the "nerd" stereotype. Like, maybe Asian kids don't get teased as often for being smart because, due to the model minority myth, everyone "expects" them to be smart. It's like a cognitive dissonance thing or something. Maybe.
Probably we need to find some way to combat anti-intellectualism in ALL segments of American culture.
Y'know what I recently learned, though? Apparently if you look at statistics, the REAL "model minority" group is Africans in America. (I think if you look up "model minority myth" on wikipedia you'll find the info.)
omg I need some sleep. But THANK YOU for sharing! :)
Budai
12-22-2007, 02:07 PM
Anyhow, I have this hypothesis that in some ways, the ambiguous loss of cultural identity was an even more devastating trauma than that of slavery...or at least, more difficult to collectively resolve and recover from.
I agree with you, particularly if "resolve and recover" means working through the natural progression of the conventional Grief Cycle ("Denial" >> "Anger" >> "Bargaining" >> "Despair" >> "Acceptance") in order to dispel "the ambiguous loss of cultural identity" you're referring to. Currently, IMO, the looming societal barriers to meaningful catharsis at an overarching level are triangular: 1) political correctness; 2) indignant activism; and 3) the concurrent push by federal, state & local governments to criminalize black males in order to colonize them in profitable penal settlements.
I dunno. There is a LOT of reference to ambiguous loss in the literature...And in some ways, Song of Solomon seems like a metaphor for the whole experience. k, i haven't slept in days and im a little delirious, so don't mind me and my goofy theories.
You're not delirious--on paper, anyway ;)...
I haven't read Song of Solomon, so my knowledge of the plot/characters stems entirely from book reviews. The little I know about the "Milkman" character seems to resonate with parallels drawn at the beginning of John Singleton's flawed (IMO) but memorable 2001 film, Baby Boy. The movie begins with narrator speaking as we view the sight a young African-American male balled up inside a giant womb, umbilical cord still intact...
Narrator: “The black man has been forced to think of himself as a baby. What does a black man call his close acquaintances? Boys. What does a black man call his place of residence? His crib.”
Again, though, when I think about it, white kids get shit for being smart or studious as well--maybe especially if they don't happen to fit the "nerd" stereotype. Like, maybe Asian kids don't get teased as often for being smart because, due to the model minority myth, everyone "expects" them to be smart. It's like a cognitive dissonance thing or something. Maybe.
Probably we need to find some way to combat anti-intellectualism in ALL segments of American culture.
It may not always be a matter of "anti-intellectualism". In some cases, it might be the less subtle mandate to "act White," "act Asian,"; essentially, the message seems to be "know your place"...
Y'know what I recently learned, though? Apparently if you look at statistics, the REAL "model minority" group is Africans in America.
And many of them arrogantly insist on that distinction, too! After we moved to the United States, my Nigerian father once cautioned me:
"Don't identify too much with your Black classmates. They came here on slave ships--but you arrived here on a Boeing jet..."
RandomUser
12-22-2007, 02:38 PM
The secret that people need to learn. Is that success is made by looking forward and listening backwards. So many people only listen backwards.
xdamage
12-23-2007, 12:25 AM
IIt may not always be a matter of "anti-intellectualism". In some cases, it might be the less subtle mandate to "act White," "act Asian,"; essentially, the message seems to be "know your place"...
Hmm, well I'm a white male that grew up in a relatively wealthy school in Southern California. What can I say but those of us who enjoyed school, who actively participated, us "nerds" were very much ridiculed by our peers for being uncool (and that was some 30-37 years ago). The only thing is I don't know if this is an American thing, or a human nature thing. Let's face it, the only reason we are "cool" today is because we have the luxury that our intellect has allowed us to work in a high paying job (in my case technical). But in a more primitive society? I wouldn't need to know a fraction of what I know. I probably would have been better off spending my time chasing more girls, body building, and focus less on school.
Casual Observer
12-23-2007, 07:25 AM
Again, though, when I think about it, white kids get shit for being smart or studious as well--maybe especially if they don't happen to fit the "nerd" stereotype.
Being from a decidedly white trash neighborhood as a kid, it does happen this way, but I don't recall any harassment after reaching high school, perhaps because I was a social outcast for other reasons, but also because everyone at my 98% white high school seemed to know the stakes for academic success, even if they didn't have it.
IIt may not always be a matter of "anti-intellectualism". In some cases, it might be the less subtle mandate to "act White," "act Asian,"; essentially, the message seems to be "know your place"...
I have to agree with Budai; it's not about anti-intellectualism as much as it is an active cultural resistance against what is perceived to be success, even if it's objectively superior to the alternative (poverty, prison, or the morgue).
Cultural equivalency is a lie.
TheSexKitten
12-23-2007, 08:24 PM
Hmm, well I'm a white male that grew up in a relatively wealthy school in Southern California. What can I say but those of us who enjoyed school, who actively participated, us "nerds" were very much ridiculed by our peers for being uncool (and that was some 30-37 years ago). The only thing is I don't know if this is an American thing, or a human nature thing. Let's face it, the only reason we are "cool" today is because we have the luxury that our intellect has allowed us to work in a high paying job (in my case technical). But in a more primitive society? I wouldn't need to know a fraction of what I know. I probably would have been better off spending my time chasing more girls, body building, and focus less on school.
That's true, and despite the fact that I'm veering off-topic here, it's interesting. Intellect is a much more long-term facet of evolution, whereas beefing up physically and conforming to social norms help humans survive in the very short term. Hmm.
Budai
12-25-2007, 02:05 PM
That's true, and despite the fact that I'm veering off-topic here, it's interesting. Intellect is a much more long-term facet of evolution, whereas beefing up physically and conforming to social norms help humans survive in the very short term. Hmm.
Wow, TSK, you're taking me back in time to Anthro 101...;D
IMO, you're really not "veering off-topic" if you consider your statements in the context of body types. Ectomorphs (slim build/long, thin muscles) bodies, mesomorphs (narrow-waisted/muscular) and endomorphs ("apple" or "pear" shaped/large-boned) possess varying attributes that become advantageous in different settings. In fact, debates about preferred body types can be overheard at any SC! ;)
Arguably, it might be difficult for Johhny Depp (ectomorph) or Jack Black (endomorph) to alter their body type in order to trade blows with The Rock (mesomorph). Similarly, Oprah Winfrey (mesomorph) has promoted bestselling books about modifying (her) body type in order to compete socially with ectomorphs (ex: Kate Moss) or endomorphs (ex: Sarah Michelle Gellar).
(I chose mainstream examples, a-la-Wikipedia, for easy identification)
Intellect is a much more long-term facet of evolution, whereas beefing up physically and conforming to social norms help humans survive in the very short term.
With regard to the controversial and related topics of slavery and selective breeding, the mesomorphic body type was idealized for both males (muscular "rectangle") and females (the classic "hourglass").
IMO, stereotyping permeates our thinking with the understandable temptation to take mental shortcuts when judging individuals by their appearance. Over time, the 3 body types have become associated with varying levels of intellectual ability, with extreme mesomorphs at the "brawny jock" end of the continuum, extreme ectomorphs at the "brainy nerd" end and "apple/pear" endomorphs falling within the "hump" of the standard bell curve...
An attractive (correction: HAWT!!!) friend used to wear clear, nonprescription ("fake") glasses in college because, in her opinion, "they automatically added 20 points to your IQ in the eyes of your classmates."