View Full Version : What's with the attitudes?
Jenny
01-06-2008, 11:53 AM
FWIW, it reaffirms my decision of paying little attention to the stage. i suppose a stripper can't be bothered to suppress her contempt for $20 during a stage set these days.Well. Me, personally, if a guy tips me less than a $50 he just get the finger.
InLoveWithaStripper
01-06-2008, 01:02 PM
Rick - I cannot help it if you do not accurately describe situations you put up for commentary. As you pointed out - I was not there. All I know is what you tell me. So falsely describing something so that it sounds like you were impolite to a relatively innocuous comment, then insisting that it is polite, and then saying that I'm "personally insulting" you for proposing that you don't have the best intuition on what constitutes courtesy on what is polite when you have deliberately made yourself sound more impolite than what you claim you were while insisting the behaviour you have deliberately contrived to sound impolite is actually polite....
Okay, I think rationalization is wasted here. You are a peculiar rabbit, my friend.
OK, I've read all of this silliness.
Jenny, you did make a lot of insinuations that Rick was not intelligent, you didn't just propose that he didn't have the best intuition. He didn't deliberately make himself sound any sort of way. As a customer, I recognized instantly what the situation was. I had no problem understanding what he was dealing with and from what I've read, I'm not the only one who was capable of immediate understanding. It appears that the only one with any sort of major issue with this was you, Jenny. I believe that it is you who is the peculiar rabbit in this burrow. I do agree, however, rationalization is wasted, but on whom?
Jenny
01-06-2008, 01:15 PM
OK, I've read all of this silliness.
Jenny, you did make a lot of insinuations that Rick was not intelligent, you didn't just propose that he didn't have the best intuition.
What are you talking about? Outside of saying that he is wrong, how did I malign his intelligence? I never referred, directly or indirectly to his intelligence, and honestly, I have no opinion on it. I said a) that I'm sure he is good at running his own business, but that I have doubts as to his expertise on mine; b) that he was impolite, and if he finds that polite he misunderstands what "politeness" is; c) that he was importing attitudes and assumptions that exist in a strip club onto this messageboard. Personally, I fail to see how that is insulting at all. But you know - I have a thick skin.
He didn't deliberately make himself sound any sort of way.
What are you talking about? He said himself that he undersold her behaviour. He said himself that he might have posted this "just to see the reaction" and tailored it to elicit a specific one. Are you SURE you read all of this silliness?
As a customer, I recognized instantly what the situation was. I had no problem understanding what he was dealing with and from what I've read, I'm not the only one who was capable of immediate understanding.
Again - what are you talking about? Two other people said that he had behaved rudely or at least questionably. The only one who was all "I'm sure she deserved it" and "that's a perfectly fine way to behave" based on his initial narrative was punk. Are you absolutely sure that you read all of this?
It appears that the only one with any sort of major issue with this was you, Jenny. I believe that it is you who is the peculiar rabbit in this burrow. I do agree, however, rationalization is wasted, but on whom?
Yes. I have this pesky habit of, you know, reading as opposed to assuming a bunch of facts that place the poster in the best possible light. Like I said - all I know is what he said, and at no point did I assume anything he didn't say himself.
InLoveWithaStripper
01-06-2008, 01:21 PM
Jenny, you're just fabulous aren't you?
Jenny
01-06-2008, 01:31 PM
Yeah. I'm pretty fucking great. And since I don't need your approval, what's your point?
Lapaholic
01-06-2008, 01:48 PM
...<Snip> So falsely describing something so that it sounds like you were impolite to a relatively innocuous comment, then insisting that it is polite, and then saying that I'm "personally insulting" you for proposing that you don't have the best intuition on what constitutes courtesy on what is polite when you have deliberately made yourself sound more impolite than what you claim you were while insisting the behaviour you have deliberately contrived to sound impolite is actually polite....
WTF - I think i may have had a stroke while trying to decipher that one - holy shit!!
WTF - I think i may have had a stroke while trying to decipher that one - holy shit!!
Lap, that was the point. It was irony.
FBR
yoda57us
01-06-2008, 03:17 PM
This is fairly comical. I don't always agree with Jenny but if you guys are gonna try and put words in her mouth you could at least show up with your A game....
mr_punk
01-06-2008, 03:47 PM
As a customer, I recognized instantly what the situation was. I had no problem understanding what he was dealing with and from what I've read, I'm not the only one who was capable of immediate understanding.sure, but jenny isn't a customer. she just claims to be one when it's convenient for jenny. although, she is a biatch. so, you think she would recognize when other biatches are being biatchy for the sake of being über-biatches.
Well. Me, personally, if a guy tips me less than a $50 he just get the finger.in that case, one can only hope that he's tipping you in loonies collected in a small sack and thrown directly at back of your skull.
Jenny
01-06-2008, 04:09 PM
sure, but jenny isn't a customer. she just claims to be one when it's convenient for jenny.
I dunno punk. In your universe, one gets to be a customer just for being in the general vicinity of this board. By that rationale, I seem to qualify.
in that case, one can only hope that he's tipping you in loonies collected in a small sack and thrown directly at back of your skull.
I'm sorry - are you threatening me?
Amber_Sparxx
01-06-2008, 06:25 PM
Amber - I question the legitimacy of a "play nice" admonition from someone who started a thread entitled "where do all the attitudes come from?" I'm just saying. And thanks - but I have a mom. And we have very capable and involved moderators. So how about if we stick to the issues?
The thread called "What's with the attitudes?" is in fact in reaction to girls having attitudes, which many would equate with not being nice. I wasn't trying to be anyone's mom, I was trying to be lighthearted. You know, a sense of humor? You have one of those too, I've seen it in other threads, where is it now? And while we do have capable and involved moderators on SW, they do not always go hand in hand. In this case, I think you've taken it too personally (maybe you are having fun with it?) and have your posts have grown intentionally incendiary. Increasingly involved, but decreasingly illustrating moderator-level capabilities.
Amber
Jenny
01-06-2008, 06:38 PM
The thread called "What's with the attitudes?" is in fact in reaction to girls having attitudes, which many would equate with not being nice. I wasn't trying to be anyone's mom, I was trying to be lighthearted. You know, a sense of humor? You have one of those too, I've seen it in other threads, where is it now? And while we do have capable and involved moderators on SW, they do not always go hand in hand. In this case, I think you've taken it too personally (maybe you are having fun with it?) and have your posts have grown intentionally incendiary. Increasingly involved, but decreasingly illustrating moderator-level capabilities.
Amber
Okay. I'm sorry. I did realize you were being lighthearted and should have responded in kind.
Although - I was referring to the moderators of THIS section - not myself.
Amber_Sparxx
01-06-2008, 06:47 PM
All humor and sarcasm aside, thank you for the acknowledgment. I'm sorry if my comments were out of line in any way. I do respect your sharp wit, and usually your sharp tongue can be warranted (and quite amusing, as well!). In this case, maybe I overreacted and took it personally myself.
Obviously the thread is on going which is a statement that we dont have a problem so far. But dont think for a minute that the mods arent watching.
FBR
xdamage
01-07-2008, 12:23 AM
The thread called "What's with the attitudes?" is in fact in reaction to girls having attitudes, which many would equate with not being nice.
Here is the thing for me. I really believe that the "attitudes" you refer to are due to some real changes in our culture. The funny thing is I am torn about what to think.
On the one hand I appreciate that our culture allows people to be arrogant, rude, feel entitled, feel "empowered", not take shit, stand up for their rights, and much more.
On the other hand, I worry too that today's younger generation is tomorrow's leaders, and tomorrow's primary workforce. The problem is, I keep seeing more and more American jobs going to people who are not Americans. Some believe it is only because non-Americans are willing to work for less, but I've seen some employers (e.g., Amusement parks, and now some Casinos) give up on the local work pool, and bring in teenagers and 20 somethings from over seas. Same pay, but they actually show up to work and get the idea that they are there to serve the customer, not to chat with each other.
I don't know. Maybe this is inevitable evolution of a society that is generally prosperous, and allows people near complete freedom? Maybe without something compelling, like a fear of not being able to find work, or swift firings for poor service, people just naturally tend to become lazy, do as little as possible, and develop attitudes?
mr_punk
01-07-2008, 06:02 AM
I dunno punk. In your universe, one gets to be a customer just for being in the general vicinity of this board. By that rationale, I seem to qualify. obviously, you haven't been paying attention. i draw a hard line at canadians.
I'm sorry - are you threatening me?oh, don't act so proud. you would pocket the money faster than ben johnson in a 100m sprint after steroid shot.
Jenny
01-07-2008, 06:22 AM
obviously, you haven't been paying attention. i draw a hard line at canadians.
You know... there are other canadians here you are disenfranchising. But that mean... that none of my customers are customers? Interesting.
oh, don't act so proud. you would pocket the money faster than ben johnson in a 100m sprint after steroid shot.
Hm. Well - if stripping has taught me anything about my character it is that there is relatively little I won't do for enough money (I mean relative to all the things that can be done in the universe). But - if it involved hard objects being thrown at my head... it would have to be a lot more than fifty dollars.
doc-catfish
01-07-2008, 09:25 AM
On the other hand, I worry too that today's younger generation is tomorrow's leaders, and tomorrow's primary workforce. The problem is, I keep seeing more and more American jobs going to people who are not Americans. Some believe it is only because non-Americans are willing to work for less, but I've seen some employers (e.g., Amusement parks, and now some Casinos) give up on the local work pool, and bring in teenagers and 20 somethings from over seas. Same pay, but they actually show up to work and get the idea that they are there to serve the customer, not to chat with each other.
Tis' true. I think with respect to SC's, you can attribute a lot of the laziness to:
1. The fact that we have a profession where a young lady, barely out of high school, with no proven skills other than how to charm men, can go in and make far more money than she could at almost any conventional job, and often in less time than that conventional job would require. Its only logical that a gal in that position, can very easily get a skewered sense of the value of money.
2. The fact that dancers to a great degree are their own boss, and except for the obvious loss of income (which to them isn't so obvious), or the occasional fine handed down by the club, there is really nothing reining in any outlandish behavior that may result from number 1.
3. The fact that even when some sort of consequence is delivered, there will be no short of spineless idiots with white knight syndrome who will bail these girls out (pay their fine, buy their sob stories, blah, blah, blah), time and time again.
I don't know. Maybe this is inevitable evolution of a society that is generally prosperous, and allows people near complete freedom? Maybe without something compelling, like a fear of not being able to find work, or swift firings for poor service, people just naturally tend to become lazy, do as little as possible, and develop attitudes?
True, but I really can't complain about that sort of evolution. I see it as a right and just equalizer for those of us who still have a little work ethic left in them, American or not.
xdamage
01-07-2008, 10:12 AM
1. The fact that we have a profession where a young lady, barely out of high school, with no proven skills other than how to charm men, can go in and make far more money than she could at almost any conventional job, and often in less time than that conventional job would require. Its only logical that a gal in that position, can very easily get a skewered sense of the value of money.
It is apparent to me that some dancers definitely do not grasp how many hours, and how much work many customers have to do to raise $20, let alone $500 for an hour in the VIP.
Amber_Sparxx
01-07-2008, 11:37 AM
^^^^^^^
This is true to a frustratingly high degree. I honestly think that either A) the minimum age of dancers should be raised. This would ensure that more entertainers would have actual work experience outside of a strip club and a more appropriate perspective on customer service; and/or B) more clubs should be run more like legit. businesses. Training program, buddy for 1 - 3 shifts, and follow a set protocol for write-ups, suspensions, and termination. Too many owners and managers treat their girls in a less-than-inspiring manner or treat their club as their own personal ego and self worth verification system (like glorified pimps almost). I feel an extreme amount of gratitude that this is not the attitude that envelops the club mgmt where I work. I am fortunate enough to say that it IS run like a legit business, fair and safe, but would still do well to implement a training and evaluation program. Which ARE available btw, but even DancerWealth pointed out that the owners and managers that go to the conventions pertaining to our industry use these conventions more as vacations that can be taken as tax write-offs and hardly worth his time to sell his product!
But I think that it would be both foolhardy and a waste of time to try to change the established system, which is why I plan to tackle the problem the only way I know how -- open my own club.
Svelt
01-07-2008, 11:52 AM
Actually Svelt, there are relatively few customers I would talk to like this - what would be the point of that? And again - I am not and do not argue that guys are obliged to buy from any girl that they don't want and I would never ask a customer why they don't spend money on me. I would assume that it is because they either don't have it or don't want to or don't want to enough.
And nobody is terrified of me. I'm a very sweet girl. You just can't tell because you can't see me when I'm arguing with you. Although, I have a question - since we have to deal with the dawning reality that our services are simply flattening out in a normal market related way, why would we view bitchy girls who still make money differently? I mean, I could not make money while being bitchy. Frankly, I'm a little jealous of these girls who can.
Thanks for replying Jenny, I would like to clarify a couple things. Only the first paragraph was in reference to you.
Jenny you remind me of a dancer here in my local club, she likes to get in my face all the time. The real difference between you two is that I can see the little smile working the corners of her mouth as she gets into it. I totally imagine you sitting typing and laughing as you type. Wondering aloud if anyone is going to buy into your latest post.
I have kinda a hard time imagining you as sweet, but brutally intelligent and sadistically playful, yeah. I do think you enjoy the interaction here. You are highly entertaining, and I still don't understand why people take you so seriously. Its like they want to be abused :)
Anyway back to your question Jenny,
why would we view bitchy girls who still make money differently?
I am assuming the "we" here to be you and your fellow dancers. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
Professional identity and pride. I really dislike it when someone in my industry behaves unprofessionally. It reflects poorly on me. I would think you would have the same attitude. Just as "extras", fraud and theft are unprofessional, so is poor customer service.
Now as to the dancer I have referred to being bitchy and still making money. I think she is dumbstruck that she still makes money while being bitchy. Society and the industry have changed, she and I don't really understand it, or really fit into the new model.
xdamage
01-07-2008, 12:43 PM
...which is why I plan to tackle the problem the only way I know how -- open my own club.
Go for it. It's amazing how many dancers have passed through here complaining about changes in the industry, about club owners, telling us that clubs are sure profit for the owners, and yet of those... I can't recall one (other then this post) who seriously wanted to be a club owner. I'm actually not so sure it is guaranteed profit, and imagine like running most other businesses there is a certain intangible cost to being on call 24hrs a day, but in any case if you can make it work for you, awesome.
Amber_Sparxx
01-07-2008, 02:03 PM
Professional identity and pride. I really dislike it when someone in my industry behaves unprofessionally. It reflects poorly on me... Just as "extras", fraud and theft are unprofessional, so is poor customer service.
What perfect timing of such a perfect comment to use as a most appropriate springboard! Not just for the profit (not that that doesn't factor in, mind you!), but it is very much about professional pride. Why waste my energy complaining when I can change my own circumstances? I love being an entertainer, that's why I'm good at what I do (at least that's what I tell myself), and I think that will play just as much a part in building a successful club as hard constant work will.
safado
01-07-2008, 03:18 PM
It is apparent to me that some dancers definitely do not grasp how many hours, and how much work many customers have to do to raise $20, let alone $500 for an hour in the VIP.
Are you saying that you don't have a money tree in your back yard that grows $20 bills instead of leaves?
Jenny
01-07-2008, 03:39 PM
I have kinda a hard time imagining you as sweet, but brutally intelligent and sadistically playful, yeah. I do think you enjoy the interaction here. You are highly entertaining, and I still don't understand why people take you so seriously. Its like they want to be abused :)
Dude - I am very sweet. You just have no idea.
I am assuming the "we" here to be you and your fellow dancers. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
Not so much - it was more general. Like if we take for granted - as we seem to here - that higher contact, less money etc., etc are "normal' market flattening process, why do we not see "bad attitudes" as a similarly neutral trend. Like: "this is what the service is worth" has a correlation in "this is what your payment is worth." Not a indictment of what anyone spends - just wondering. And it comes out a little interesting how market forces are invoked in an ostensibly neutral way, but really aren't at all. Or it's interesting to me.
Professional identity and pride. I really dislike it when someone in my industry behaves unprofessionally. It reflects poorly on me. I would think you would have the same attitude. Just as "extras", fraud and theft are unprofessional, so is poor customer service.
Heh. Actually last year I wrote a paper on "professionalism" and "courtesy" and what actually means in the workforce - the professor who marked it said that I was the only student who argued that we needed less courtesy. He said the paper sucked, but the sheer force of ideas and creativity carried me through (I'm paraphrasing). In a nutshell - "professionalism" is not always particularly compelling to me as an objective. "Professional Pride" is the same - essentially it is very often a way of reinforcing the status quo, and extracting unpaid labour.
As well - just something to consider - "poor customer service" is purely relative - it isn't something sent down from god. It is only in contrast to what is legitimately expected from the industry. And what is legitimately expected from the industry is, when it is applied to us, conceived of in market terms. What dancers put up with, what they trade on, what they allow, for how much money. So - just wondering - when we turn to you guys, why do we apply "legitimate expectations" (i.e. expected customer service) like it is an external principle? Or is there a principled basis for determining this?
Extras, fraud and theft are all illegal. Just pointing out a principled difference between those elements of "unprofessionalism" and bad customer service.
Svelt
01-07-2008, 04:34 PM
Dude - I am very sweet. You just have no idea.
Unfortunately I can only go by what I see here, but sometimes you are adorable, and always entertaining.
Not so much - it was more general. Like if we take for granted - as we seem to here - that higher contact, less money etc., etc are "normal' market flattening process, why do we not see "bad attitudes" as a similarly neutral trend. Like: "this is what the service is worth" has a correlation in "this is what your payment is worth." Not a indictment of what anyone spends - just wondering. And it comes out a little interesting how market forces are invoked in an ostensibly neutral way, but really aren't at all. Or it's interesting to me.
So as the money goes down, contact expectations go up, we should expect attitude to go down. I hear you, I would rather attitude stayed at what I expect and am used to for the service industries, where I exchange the same level of funds.
Heh. Actually last year I wrote a paper on "professionalism" and "courtesy" and what actually means in the workforce - the professor who marked it said that I was the only student who argued that we needed less courtesy. He said the paper sucked, but the sheer force of ideas and creativity carried me through (I'm paraphrasing). In a nutshell - "professionalism" is not always particularly compelling to me as an objective. "Professional Pride" is the same - essentially it is very often a way of reinforcing the status quo, and extracting unpaid labour.
Yes, especially in the service industry, the status quo is important. As far as extracting unpaid labour, I hear you. There have been many threads detailing how much to invest in a customer to generate business. Its a fine line, and a good sales person can walk it.
As well - just something to consider - "poor customer service" is purely relative - it isn't something sent down from god. It is only in contrast to what is legitimately expected from the industry. And what is legitimately expected from the industry is, when it is applied to us, conceived of in market terms. What dancers put up with, what they trade on, what they allow, for how much money. So - just wondering - when we turn to you guys, why do we apply "legitimate expectations" (i.e. expected customer service) like it is an external principle? Or is there a principled basis for determining this?
I think this thread is discussing this point, if attitudes really have degraded in the sc, why did we the customer allow it? Why haven't we demanded maintaining the status quo? Are extras, lowered costs really more important than the percieved status quo of customer service?
Extras, fraud and theft are all illegal. Just pointing out a principled difference between those elements of "unprofessionalism" and bad customer service.
Thank you, I was poking fun at some of the things sc customers demand, and put up with in the sc. I do think its a valid question, is stripping a valid profession? Or is it something else thinly disguised as legitimate?
Jenny
01-07-2008, 04:50 PM
So as the money goes down, contact expectations go up, we should expect attitude to go down. I hear you, I would rather attitude stayed at what I expect and am used to for the service industries, where I exchange the same level of funds.
Yeah... I would prefer to have a great attitude and more money. Alas; the rest of the world is not on board with us.
I think this thread is discussing this point, if attitudes really have degraded in the sc, why did we the customer allow it? Why haven't we demanded maintaining the status quo? Are extras, lowered costs really more important than the percieved status quo of customer service?
I would say... apparently? This is sort of like Bridgette and I arguing about imposing external standards in a strip club - sometimes the industry just doesn't even out the way you might expect. In some ways you might expect that because there is less money - even if you just account for inflation - that customers would get to be more selective. This may be true - however, the issue is what customers select, right? As it happens, customers aren't reliable with their criteria. As well, something to consider is that part of what is driving costs down (or holding them steady and letting inflation drive them down) is the glut of the market. So it works together - prices are kept down specifically because these girls with attitude (as well as a myriad of others that some people think don't belong in the business) are in it.
Although part of what I was asking is why, if we are to accept one element of "market force" as being neutral, we think the other side as being... non-neutral. Like why do we think that girls making less money for more work is a neutral working of the market and not a culpability of customers but think that the inverse - a market situation that does not demand exquisite courtesy accompanying the service - as involving a character flaw? Why not regard them with the same neutrality? Not just you personally, but in general. I mean, I have my suspicions - but I'm interested in alternate theories.
Thank you, I was poking fun at some of the things sc customers demand, and put up with in the sc.
Oops.
I do think its a valid question, is stripping a valid profession? Or is it something else thinly disguised as legitimate?Well... obviously that depends on your conception of "validity". If you conceive of "valid" as, by definition, excluding sexual services (as many people do) then no... by the criteria of "legal activity consisting of significant remuneration" then yes. I'm interested in what it might mean if it was "invalid" as well as what the "something else" might be.
Svelt
01-07-2008, 05:33 PM
Although part of what I was asking is why, if we are to accept one element of "market force" as being neutral, we think the other side as being... non-neutral. Like why do we think that girls making less money for more work is a neutral working of the market and not a culpability of customers but think that the inverse - a market situation that does not demand exquisite courtesy accompanying the service - as involving a character flaw? Why not regard them with the same neutrality? Not just you personally, but in general. I mean, I have my suspicions - but I'm interested in alternate theories.
I find it interesting that customers are willing to push the market in the extras and lower money areas but not in customer service. I think it is our fault, if it was truely important, we would demand it. I do, but others don't. Apparently there are more customers willing to take lower service. So take this as impassioned plea, demand better service :)
So injecting personal experience, the dancer I have used as an example. She knows that its her attitude, thats why I am not spending money on her. I used to be a guaranteed sale. We have talked about it. If I remember correctly I think I said, "When you stop acting like a total cunt, we can talk about it." Really I think she wants me to bust her balls, because noone does. She doesn't believe she should be able to get away with having an attitude and she knows I will call her on it. I stopped buying into the drama, and now just tell her it won't work. Once we do the dance we go back to being sc friends.
Well... obviously that depends on your conception of "validity". If you conceive of "valid" as, by definition, excluding sexual services (as many people do) then no... by the criteria of "legal activity consisting of significant remuneration" then yes. I'm interested in what it might mean if it was "invalid" as well as what the "something else" might be.
Woot bait taken, set the hook Svelt, set the hook.... (I see how enjoyable this can be :) )
Really what I am trying to say is I don't really feel something is professional unless you can apply standards to it. Unless there is accountability, ethics, and all that sort of stuff, its really not a legitimate profession.
Jenny
01-07-2008, 05:49 PM
Well good job - I've been baited.
Really, that is a perfectly legitimate definition of "profession" as opposed to "job". But many, many jobs lack internal ethics and accountability.
Your use of the word "fault" is interesting. Again- it goes back to the issue of neutrality, don't you think?
Svelt
01-07-2008, 05:56 PM
Your use of the word "fault" is interesting. Again- it goes back to the issue of neutrality, don't you think?
Hmm, I guess I am not getting your neutrality point.
So I should just view it as the natural process, its not up the customer to push it in any direction or another? It will just work itself out to whatever it will be? (no baiting or anything, sigh that I need to now add a disclaimer, apparently the drawback to having fun)
I really believe that one person can change things.
BTW thank you Jenny, I have really enjoyed our discussion.
xdamage
01-08-2008, 12:01 AM
So I should just view it as the natural process, its not up the customer to push it in any direction or another? It will just work itself out to whatever it will be?
I think it is interesting how there is so much concern over who is to blaim. Who shall we identify as good? and bad? Seems like a common theme motivated primarily by personal emotion (i.e., I don't want to feel bad about me so want logic that leaves me feeling not responsible). But as with most complex social realities, there is plenty of culpability (or better yet, "responsibility") to go around. No one individual is responsible, but rather people (both customers and dancers) have contributed to the changes, individually in small ways to be sure, but the sum total of those decisions resulted in the reality we have today.
There is however one important key difference between customers and dancers. As customers, our daily bread does not depend on the state of the industry. We have some entertainment value to lose, but nothing serious in the broader picture. So ultimately the way these things usually work. Either the party with more to lose makes decisions to push for change, or generally speaking they can assume the decline will continue.
To be honest with you, I expect the industry to decline. The dancers simply are not working together as a group. As long as they have an every woman for herself, independent contractor mentality; as long as new younger girls can easily enter the job market with no training or standards required; nothing will change for the better. Watch and see.
yoda57us
01-08-2008, 05:35 AM
To be honest with you, I expect the industry to decline. The dancers simply are not working together as a group. As long as they have an every woman for herself, independent contractor mentality; as long as new younger girls can easily enter the job market with no training or standards required; nothing will change for the better. Watch and see.
Well, I agree about the expectation of decline. I've been seeing it for years and I don't see an end in sight. I don't think it has anything to do with the inability of dancers to work together as a group or any sort of lack of training.
Neither of these issues have ever been factors in the SC industry.
Young dancers are arriving on the scene with the same sense of entitlement that young people in general seem to have. This is what is different from years ago and this is one of the major problems. Too many clueless brats who think that having a young tight body and being naked are all it takes. Years ago maybe it was but in the current era of hustling private dances, increasing numbers of dancers and decreasing numbers of customers there is more to making money than just shaking yer' ass. What's interesting to me is that, even back when dancing was easier money, there were always girls that had a clue and those that didn't. The difference now seems to be that the clueless ones don't go away. They are content to make slightly better than Wal-Mart money if that's the best they can do. Of course, they are miserable and this shows in their attitudes.
There was a time, 20 years ago, when I actually liked dancers in their early twenties. Heck, I still see a woman every once in a while that I met on her first day of dancing when she was not quite eighteen back in 1986. She still dances and she still looks great but her attitude, not her body, is why she has survived this long. She was a sweet kid back when I met her as were most of the girls I met in clubs back then. She accepted every dollar from every guy with a smile and an appropriate stage move of some sort and made very good money. She received no training, in fact she was almost afraid to move the first time I saw her on stage. None of the girls helped her. Hell, she was 17 and gorgeous and a threat to the income of every other girl on her shift! Sure some dancers make friends with other dancers but there is no sisterhood and there never will be. A smart dancer shows up, does her job, doesn't cause trouble and goes home.
I do agree that lack of standards is another factor in the decline of the SC quality experience. I can only speak for clubs in New England but it's fairly obvious that club owners will pretty much any woman with a pulse and a house fee in this day and age. I see women on every visit that simply were not employable in the SC industry ten years ago. A general decline in business is responsible for this. SC owners are, by and large, a short-sighted and stupid lot. When revenues decline they often try to recoup the loss on the backs of the dancers first, the customers second. My one-time favorite club almost put itself out of business earlier this century when, as revenues dropped due to a variety of economic factors, they decided to raise the price of dances from $25 to $30 in order to double their cut of the per-dance fee. The logic was simple: even if a girl sells fewer dances due to the higher price the club will still make more money....unless of course her dance count drops to below half of what it was....but that could never happen...right? Guess what, it did. Many of the clubs best dancers left along with many of the clubs best customers...
In spite of the issues that I am whining about here I should note that I still enjoy my visits to SC's immensely. It's not that hard for me to find the ladies that tickle my fancy and know how to treat a customer they are just not in the majority anymore. I don't generally go to a club looking for a new experience, I go looking for a fav and if she's not there I usually leave and go someplace else to find another one.
Jenny
01-08-2008, 08:44 AM
Well, I agree about the expectation of decline. I've been seeing it for years and I don't see an end in sight.
Again though - don't you think it sort of depends on what you mean by "decline"? I mean - let's look at it from another angle. Strip clubs are cheap. You can more readily and more easily get a lot more contact. You can - by and large - treat the dancers like trash if that is your inclination. You are more likely (apparently) to successfully meet OTC. This is all stuff that you guys like, right? In fact, I would be willing to bet that the absence of those things would ensure your absence from the club faster than the "attitudes" that are the subject of this thread - no? So why do you think we characterize it as a decline?
Young dancers are arriving on the scene with the same sense of entitlement that young people in general seem to have.
You mean the young whippersnappers, Yoda? Unlike your day when you had to walk 8 miles through snow that high? I dunno. From where I stand I don't think young people have heightened expectations or entitlement; the young people I know seem to have lower expectations and entitlement (if I ignore the young people I go to school with; but they are kind of an unusually privileged lot). I blame globalization.
This is what is different from years ago and this is one of the major problems. Too many clueless brats who think that having a young tight body and being naked are all it takes. Years ago maybe it was but in the current era of hustling private dances, increasing numbers of dancers and decreasing numbers of customers there is more to making money than just shaking yer' ass.
But that's interesting in terms of what you said above too - that the decline is in recent years, because of a new sense of entitlement, where that sense of entitlement was perfectly appropriate years ago - hmm? The business changes - and really, all of these changes are a part of each other. I mean - a girl who is not pretty enough or bright enough or amusing enough to make "real" money being a "real" dancer participates in the proverbial extras at either a nominal or no surcharge, eventually driving down contact standards in the club, and bringing in more girls who are the same - because as it turns out many customers want the extras more than they want "pretty", "bright" or "amusing". I'm just not sure it is rationale to try to divvy up obviously interrelated changes and say "that one is neutral, but that one is indicative of a character flaw."
What's interesting to me is that, even back when dancing was easier money, there were always girls that had a clue and those that didn't. The difference now seems to be that the clueless ones don't go away. They are content to make slightly better than Wal-Mart money if that's the best they can do. Of course, they are miserable and this shows in their attitudes.
Yeah I've met those girls. Once when I was dancing on your side of the border I met a girl who got a raise going to work at Petsmart. But again - I think that is the result of lowered expectations not an unrealistic sense of entitlement. And - just to use you as an example - you are perfectly happy about it when you are paying quite a small set rate for a dead afternoon with a dancer, right?
There was a time, 20 years ago, when I actually liked dancers in their early twenties.
Well... not for nothing Yoda, but weren't you, at that time, sort of closer to being in your early twenties yourself? I mean, mightn't that have a leetle something to do with it? Especially since you like a little bit of chat?
xdamage
01-08-2008, 09:49 AM
... I don't think it has anything to do with the inability of dancers to work together as a group or any sort of lack of training.
...
Neither of these issues have ever been factors in the SC industry.
....
Young dancers are arriving on the scene with the same sense of entitlement that young people in general seem to have. This is what is different from years ago and this is one of the major problems.
I guess I think the sense of entitlement is more of a symptom of social changes more so than the cause, but to be clear, I think the entitlement mindset is not something that happened in one generation in our society. It's an evolving mindset that is intimately tied up with a relatively long period of prosperity (relatively speaking as compared with other periods of history and other societies), and our society that values freedom of expression and places a lot of focus on individual happiness. If our society was to go through a major economic depression the mindset could change fairly fast.
Regarding working together as a group not being a factor in the past. I think you can't compare the past with the present. Things have changed. It wasn't a factor in the past because dancers were rarities. These days with so many girls entering the industry for fast easy money, it is a factor. It's just like nature. If there are a few animals competing for abundant resources then they don't need to work together. But if there are many animals competing for limited resources their choices are work together, or compete hard, and it is survival of the fittest.
And I really don't believe they are capable of working together. There is no professional standards applied to stripping because any girl with no training, no skills, and no accountability can enter the industry. She just needs to be willing, and reasonably attractive. No school is required. No big money is at stake (e.g., like a model who works for a client who has a lot at stake when running an advertising campaign; or an athlete working for a sports team that has a multi-hundred million dollar a year budget and expectations of profits).
Without some type of motivator to work together, I think you'll just see good old survival of the fittest mentality where the fittest are much like what we see today:
o Exceptionally physically hot.
o Those willing to do more for less.
o Exceptionally good at the psychological aspects of convincing men to spend on them.
And I expect to see even more women entering the industry as time goes on as the stigma about stripping decreases. The pie will be cut even thinner. The lure of fast, easy money, low accountability, flexible hours, no training required, feelings of "empowerment" related to sexuality and controlling males, etc., suggests more women will be entering and competing for limited resources.
Who knows ... eventually the US stripper market may end up like Amsterdam where strip clubs are now nearly non-existant, replaced by inexpensive prostitution, live dildo/sex shows, champagne clubs that also offer live sex/dildo shows, etc. The only difference is in Amsterdam the current generation of 20 somethings doesn't think there is anything abnormal about this state of affairs. This is just the way it is. Paying $20 for a low contact dance in a SC ... haha, why would anyone do that?
Lapaholic
01-08-2008, 09:52 AM
Hmmm i guess I would disagree with u guys. I dont see anymore "entitlement" in young people than I witnessed when I was that age. I thought our generation was as full of entitlement ( or bs ) than any I have seen since. I cant speak of older ( early boomers and older) .. But certainly us late boomers were a selfish lot IMHO.
I wonder if its more that WE have changed and less of a generational change per se. I mean I am assuming that the last 4 posts were by boomers and we are all um.. Older and Wiser ( and a bit wider too!!!) . So we look at other through a more experienced perception and we forget how it was when we were young and how others acted at our age ( even tho I am sure none of us here felt entitled).
As far as SC.... I really havent noticed the "decline". I mean I have been going to SC for over 30 years and the experience has changed ie lap dancing wasnt around 30 years ago, so for any contact, it was basically an "extra". ANd there were dancers then with snotty attitudes and dancers who cared about what they were doing.
I think the biggest change is in the clubs and the laws they have to deal with. Esp. how they derive their revenue more from dancers' earnings and less from their traditional revenue sources - booze. I feel a lot more resentment than entitlement - resentment at the owners and also at us the customers because of the pressure dancers have to earn enuf to pay high house fees and still walk away with a good income.
And as a customer I feel much more pressure to spend than before. And spend in a big way. And that I put squarely on the clubs and the new business models they have come to accept - maybe tho, thru no fault of their own.
My 2 cents... thank you for listening .... ill go back to my otherwise dull day :(
xdamage
01-08-2008, 10:10 AM
Hmmm i guess I would disagree with u guys. I dont see anymore "entitlement" in young people than I witnessed when I was that age.
I do see it, but it's a big pattern of behavior and not all individuals hold to the pattern. Feelings of entitlement existed when I was younger too, but it seems to be increasing, and I think it's expected that it will increase as long as our society is relatively prosperous and allows for greater degrees of personal expression. It's not necessarily a bad thing or a good thing. Depends on the context.
I feel a lot more resentment than entitlement - resentment at the owners and also at us the customers because of the pressure dancers have to earn enuf to pay high house fees and still walk away with a good income.
And as a customer I feel much more pressure to spend than before. :(
Yea, but arguably this a problem with your outlook.
I sure don't feel angst when I go to a restaurant, or buy goods in any other setting. I don't sit around and feel miserable because the cook, waiters, service people, sales people, etc., need to make money to live. Why do you feel angst about in a SC setting? Maybe you're reading too much here. Does the average customer sit around reading sites like this? Maybe it never enters their mind as a factor (well, sans dancer sob stories about needing money, which is something you also don't see in any other industry). In a way though it represents a kind of new low. What would you think if the car salesman told you a sob story about his personal finances while trying to sell you a car? Okay, well it wouldn't work because your inner white knight is not trying to get into his pants, but what if the car salesperson was a HOT WOMAN? Would you be more inclined to buy? Or would you be pissed off that she was using emotional blackmail? and introducing her personal life into a business setting?
Lapaholic
01-08-2008, 11:38 AM
I do see it, but it's a big pattern of behavior and not all individuals hold to the pattern. Feelings of entitlement existed when I was younger too, but it seems to be increasing, and I think it's expected that it will increase as long as our society is relatively prosperous and allows for greater degrees of personal expression. It's not necessarily a bad thing or a good thing. Depends on the context.
Yeah maybe - Id like to see data on that tho if it exists. Time to google!
Yea, but arguably this a problem with your outlook.
I sure don't feel angst when I go to a restaurant, or buy goods in any other setting. I don't sit around and feel miserable because the cook, waiters, service people, sales people, etc., need to make money to live. Why do you feel angst about in a SC setting? Maybe you're reading too much here. Does the average customer sit around reading sites like this? Maybe it never enters their mind as a factor (well, sans dancer sob stories about needing money, which is something you also don't see in any other industry). In a way though it represents a kind of new low. What would you think if the car salesman told you a sob story about his personal finances while trying to sell you a car? Okay, well it wouldn't work because your inner white knight is not trying to get into his pants, but what if the car salesperson was a HOT WOMAN? Would you be more inclined to buy? Or would you be pissed off that she was using emotional blackmail? and introducing her personal life into a business setting?
I dont feel angst ... I feel pressured to let go of all my cash. Im taking about clubs i go to esp here in RVR... One really comes to mind where u r constantly pressured to spend and it NOT the dancers its mgt. Cause they make money from the dances which I think has really changed how a SC operates. THe one at home here is an extreme example but they are a chain and opening 3 or more clubs on the east coast.
I mean there has always been at hot woman in a SC - but the mode of income has changed and yeah - it feels more like a used car dealership everyday.
Im not saying that dancers dont use sex and guilt to sell, its just more important to sell than maybe in the past ... Just a theory
xdamage
01-08-2008, 11:51 AM
Yeah maybe - Id like to see data on that tho if it exists. Time to google!
I doubt anyone is keeping stats.
I dont feel angst ... I feel pressured to let go of all my cash. Im taking about clubs i go to esp here in RVR... One really comes to mind where u r constantly pressured to spend and it NOT the dancers its mgt. Cause they make money from the dances which I think has really changed how a SC operates. THe one at home here is an extreme example but they are a chain and opening 3 or more clubs on the east coast.
I think this notion some dancers have of having to pay to work is another example of entitlement mindset. If you were a club owner you'd see why.
Dancers don't want to be employees. They don't want to have required minimum expectations of performance. They want to be independent contractors, so like most independent business people, there are expenses. On going expenses that they must make enough to pay for before they see any profit. They are not being uniquely persecuted. They are just young and don't understand the basic economics that working for yourself, there are minimum expenses. Youngsters don't inherently know it, but there ain't no free lunch.
They are not being made to pay to work. They are being made to pay to use the club's facilities. Why should the club owner let them use the facilities for free?
And if a club owner did let them work in their facility for free, then why shouldn't the club owner demand that dancers bring in a bare minimum income for the club? Why should they be allowed to use the club, take up space, and not even make $N a night for the club on average?
See this is the problem with many dancers. They want to have no responsibilities to anyone. They want to be paid just for being there. They want to keep all of the money the customers handed them, and pay none of it back to the club whose facilities they use and benefit from. They don't want to make any commitments to the club that they will make $X per night on average. They want the other girls who are competing with them to leave so they can make more. Me me me. It gets old. The lack of perspective and entitlement mindset in the industry is just outright sad, if not laughable at times.
The advantage of paying the house up front is the club owner doesn't have to deal with BS. He makes his income for the dancers using his facility. If they can't make enough to pay their house fees, it's their problem, not his. Maybe they will leave the industry if they really can't cut it. But this is a way for the club owner to set some minimum standards of performance for the contractors using his facility. This isn't the old days where dancers were rare. They are a dime a dozen now and as much as I hear people saying they would run their clubs differently, talk is cheap.
But also as a customer, you know what. A club owner doesn't open a club to cater to people with no money to spend. Of course they pressure you to spend money. If you don't like it, vote with your wallet. This is what business is all about, making money. It's not a charity. Or go and just do what you want, and let it roll off your back, but we can only get so upset about business owners who are in business to make money. I really don't feel any major pressure to spend from the owners though. It's the dancers who put the pressure on to spend where I go. I never see any of the owners nor do I interact with them.
yoda57us
01-08-2008, 01:49 PM
Again though - don't you think it sort of depends on what you mean by "decline"? I mean - let's look at it from another angle. Strip clubs are cheap. You can more readily and more easily get a lot more contact. You can - by and large - treat the dancers like trash if that is your inclination. You are more likely (apparently) to successfully meet OTC. This is all stuff that you guys like, right? In fact, I would be willing to bet that the absence of those things would ensure your absence from the club faster than the "attitudes" that are the subject of this thread - no? So why do you think we characterize it as a decline?
Well, I thought that what I meant by decline was sort of hinted at in the post-a lower percentage of pleasant and attractive dancers and a higher percentage of bad attitudes brought on by an unprofessional approach and low earnings. FWIW, I find the attitude even extends to some waitresses and barmaids.
I don't treat dancers badly, not even the ones that are a pain in the ass. I could care less about OTC, I pay escorts for that, though OTC has happened I don't seek it out in the SC environment and it is more often than not a platonic relationship.
I think I was pretty clear about the fact that I still go and I still enjoy myself, I just see a decline in regards to the specifics I mentioned.
You mean the young whippersnappers, Yoda? Unlike your day when you had to walk 8 miles through snow that high? I dunno. From where I stand I don't think young people have heightened expectations or entitlement; the young people I know seem to have lower expectations and entitlement (if I ignore the young people I go to school with; but they are kind of an unusually privileged lot). I blame globalization.
Obviously, you don't stand in the same spot that I do. I dare say that the generational difference between your POV and mine are going to effect how we both look at the early-20-somethings. I happen to be raising one right now ( a 20 something, not a stripper) so I come by my opinions from perhaps a different perspective than you do.
But that's interesting in terms of what you said above too - that the decline is in recent years, because of a new sense of entitlement, where that sense of entitlement was perfectly appropriate years ago - hmm? The business changes - and really, all of these changes are a part of each other. I mean - a girl who is not pretty enough or bright enough or amusing enough to make "real" money being a "real" dancer participates in the proverbial extras at either a nominal or no surcharge, eventually driving down contact standards in the club, and bringing in more girls who are the same - because as it turns out many customers want the extras more than they want "pretty", "bright" or "amusing". I'm just not sure it is rationale to try to divvy up obviously interrelated changes and say "that one is neutral, but that one is indicative of a character flaw."
Well, I never said the sense of entitlement was appropriate at any given point. I certainly wasn't raised with it (though I only had to walk about a mile to school it was up hill both ways...) and it was never something apparent to me when I was clubbing 20 years ago in my late 20's. Obviously I would agree with you about the less attractive girls and the fallout on both the dancer and customer sides. The contrast is vivid in Providence where I do a lot of clubbing. The deadest club in the city is the one that allows the least amount of contact. What's interesting is that they allow far less contact then the city will let them get away with. The dancers who stay there do so because they like the low grope factor even though the club is very slow most of the time. By the way, you can find pretty, bright and amusing with a surprisingly good level of contact if you look hard enough and spend money. I've never looked at strip clubs as an inexpensive hobby. I can't help it if some guys do. There are girls who are delivering at bargain prices every day but I'm not the guy looking for that or paying for it.
Yeah I've met those girls. Once when I was dancing on your side of the border I met a girl who got a raise going to work at Petsmart. But again - I think that is the result of lowered expectations not an unrealistic sense of entitlement. And - just to use you as an example - you are perfectly happy about it when you are paying quite a small set rate for a dead afternoon with a dancer, right?
My argument here is that the sense of entitlement is what brings on the attitude when one is forced to lower one's expectations.
As far as my personal arrangement:
Well yeah, I'm way beyond perfectly happy Jenny but it's not like she is getting $50 bucks and a free drink. I know I've talked about my arrangement once or twice but I don't recall ever using the word "small" in reference to what I pay the lady in question. She sits with me when she is not on stage or dancing for someone else. An hour or so before the end of her shift we go into the PD area and I buy an hours worth of dances or more. She is not chained to the chair beside me during the afternoon. This lady is in her mid 30's and has been dancing since she was 19. She knows how to make money and she is good at it. If she is cooling her 7" stripper heels with me she knows there is no money on the floor. When there is she goes after it. I would expect nothing less.
Well... not for nothing Yoda, but weren't you, at that time, sort of closer to being in your early twenties yourself? I mean, mightn't that have a leetle something to do with it? Especially since you like a little bit of chat?
I was about eight the first time I was ever in a strip club-no, there was no one dancing. I was 18 the first time I went inside an SC, bought a drink and watched the stage. I became a regular customer at roughly the age of 28 or so. I certainly would agree that my age then and now effects my preference in dancer ages, I never suggested that it didn't, but my perspective is what it is. I can't change that. It's worth noting that the chat factor was very different 20 years ago. Girls in clubs that had drink hustles had to be good at it but the dancers in other clubs often were not even on the floor between sets. The first time I struck up a convo with my very first ATF I had to send a drink back to her in the dressing room to get her to put down her book and come out and say hello...
xdamage
01-08-2008, 02:17 PM
It's worth noting that the chat factor was very different 20 years ago. Girls in clubs that had drink hustles had to be good at it but the dancers in other clubs often were not even on the floor between sets.
Yea 20 years or so ago, dancers did not spend any time on the floor between sets at the clubs we visited. They each took turns on stage, and since there were only 5 or 6, you could wait it out and see a favorite dance again. For me it was 15 years later when I went to a club that had private dances (no touching though) where I first saw dancers walking the floors chatting, trying to sell PDs, and waitresses would engage the customer in the "want to buy 'your' lady a drink?" hustle. The chat though was primarily about selling PDs and the drink hustle. I don't know if the average customer or dancer expected to make good money just talking.
Katrine
01-08-2008, 03:04 PM
See this is the problem with many dancers. They want to have no responsibilities to anyone. They want to be paid just for being there. They want to keep all of the money the customers handed them, and pay none of it back to the club whose facilities they use and benefit from. They don't want to make any commitments to the club that they will make $X per night on average. They want the other girls who are competing with them to leave so they can make more. Me me me. It gets old. The lack of perspective and entitlement mindset in the industry is just outright sad, if not laughable at times.
In Texas, for example, the clubs make money from alcohol. They charge significantly more for drinks than the neighborhood bar, and also have a minimum. They also have revenues from cover charges and food services. Dancer housefees are insignificant. If you've ever been in most SC dressing rooms, you will see that nothing the dancer pays goes back into the club.
The reason the clubs can overcharge on drinks and earn their margins, is because of the appeal of naked dancing women. Otherwise, they could only charge $3/beer like the place next door, not $7, etc....
Entitlement aside, there is nothing wrong with charging housefees if they actually helped out the club in any way. But they don't. The owners charge it because they can. They are greedy, and the girls are willing to keep paying.
The advantage of paying the house up front is the club owner doesn't have to deal with BS. He makes his income for the dancers using his facility. If they can't make enough to pay their house fees, it's their problem, not his. Maybe they will leave the industry if they really can't cut it. But this is a way for the club owner to set some minimum standards of performance for the contractors using his facility. This isn't the old days where dancers were rare. They are a dime a dozen now and as much as I hear people saying they would run their clubs differently, talk is cheap.
.
Bullshit. If this was true then the owners wouldn't hire anyone that walked through the door to begin with. Even sub-par girls can scrape together $40 for housefees, make $100, get drunk for free, and generally bring in more than they would working at Arby's.
Its called greed.
Jenny
01-08-2008, 03:44 PM
Well, I thought that what I meant by decline was sort of hinted at in the post-a lower percentage of pleasant and attractive dancers and a higher percentage of bad attitudes brought on by an unprofessional approach and low earnings. FWIW, I find the attitude even extends to some waitresses and barmaids.
Well, yeah... but you get these other things - the mileage and the cheapness - that I really and honestly thought customers in general would value more. So I'm not sure you can characterize it as a "decline" in general.
And "Unprofessional" brings us back to what "professionalism" means. It is not an approach sent down by god. (Well Svelt and I agreed that exotic dancing might be better characterized in general as a job than as a profession). Even in a field with built in accountability mechanisms - medicine for example - "professionalism" is based on what most professionals in the field do; consumer expectations are adjusted to match that (even more so in such fields).
Although in my bar the waitresses are very pretty and get harassed by customers all the time. They are, by and large, older and past getting mad on a normal basis. One girl is younger and one day after being told that she should be a dancer for the 800th time by a customer who grabbed her butt she sort of freaked out: "You think I should be a dancer so that you can reject me the way you've been rejecting these other girls all night?" She said later that none of these guys think she should dance because they are going to start spending hundreds of dollars a week on her; they just want her to be available to them. You have to imagine it with a slight accent.
I don't treat dancers badly, not even the ones that are a pain in the ass. I could care less about OTC, I pay escorts for that, though OTC has happened I don't seek it out in the SC environment and it is more often than not a platonic relationship.
Not an accusation against you personally Yoda - although I realize I said "you" I meant the more general like "you guys" "you" - like "customers". I'm sure you are a delightful customer, a wonderful man and an amazing human being.
I happen to be raising one right now ( a 20 something, not a stripper)
Are you sure? And if you are sure - how sure are you?
I can't help it if some guys do but let's face it. There are girls who are delivering at bargain prices every day but I'm not the guy looking for that or paying for it.
I think you can help it, Yoda. You just aren't trying hard enough. Okay, kidding. I don't contest what you just said - but I would say that more guys are looking for "that" than who are looking for "not that" if you know what I mean. And the natural result of that market demand is the privileging of girls who provide "that" over girls who provide "not that."
My argument here is that the sense of entitlement is what brings on the attitude when one is forced to lower one's expectations.
Okay - I think we're working in circles a bit here. Like - does the attitude cause the lowered expectations or is it the result. I personally can't look at a stripper expecting to make more than minimum wage and think "entitlement problem" myself.
As far as my personal arrangement:
Sorry - again just using you as an example. Not indicting your spending in any way. But you've mentioned repeatedly that you go in on slow days so as to be able to pay less than the standard price; and while she may do other dances with other guys, you've also been clear (or at least I've gotten the idea) that you do expect a certain amount of "free" time in addition to what you spend on dances. So - if she got really, really busy all the time and couldn't sit with you for the afternoon in exchange for your hour - would you still keep going back or would you find someone that would/could? This is not criticism - please don't take it as such.
I never imagined that you were chaining her down, Yoda (I just don't picture you having that level of kink; and if you did you'd call an escort) - I was just pointing out an opposing pov - that so far as that arrangement goes the strip club experience has not declined at all. It has in fact been heightened.
I certainly would agree that my age then and now effects my preference in dancer ages, I never suggested that it didn't, but my perspective is what it is. I can't change that.
Older guys frequently prefer older dancers. Except me. I did better with older guys when I was a kid. Now I do better with younger guys. Since I am an older dancer - I have no desire to change that predilection in anyone.
It's worth noting that the chat factor was very different 20 years ago. Girls in clubs that had drink hustles had to be good at it but the dancers in other clubs often were not even on the floor between sets. The first time I struck up a convo with my very first ATF I had to send a drink back to her in the dressing room to get her to put down her book and come out and say hello...And did she come out and say "So what the fuck do you want?" I'm kidding - but you see? It may not be a "decline". Just a redetermination of what is required from the business and what the business is worth.
Jenny
01-08-2008, 04:10 PM
My mum had to be convinced that I don't need a room in her place.
I remember talking to some Pakistani guys who found it incredible that anyone would (or would want to) want to permanently leave the family home until he or she got married. Moving away - like permanently, not just to study - at 18 seemed ridiculous to them. They studied abroad all over the place, but never even considering actually moving out until they got married.
xdamage
01-08-2008, 06:49 PM
Bullshit. If this was true then the owners wouldn't hire anyone that walked through the door to begin with. Even sub-par girls can scrape together $40 for housefees, make $100, get drunk for free, and generally bring in more than they would working at Arby's.
This is a very common dancer POV, but it is unbalanced one. You are not looking at from the POV of the club owner. He isn't hiring the dancers since they can leave at any time. He is allowing them to use his property and represent his club. The owner has a lot of stake in his club. The dancers do not. So he has every right to decide who to allow work on the property.
He may also be trying to limit the total number of girls who work in the club, something which dancers complain club owners should do more of.
Look, what I said made complete sense. You applied a simplistic all or nothing thought process to it and in that light it doesn't make sense. It is one factor. It's not the only factor, but it is nevertheless a factor. Setting minimum levels of financial performance for contractors using your club is REASONABLE. And house fees do that (for the girls who otherwise meet the clubs expectations).
Its called greed.
It's greed when someone else wants more. When we want more, funny thing is nobody ever refers to it as "greed". Greed is not fact. It is subjective. Everyone is sure they are not and someone else is.
Katrine
01-08-2008, 06:57 PM
This is a very common dancer POV, but it is unbalanced one. You are not looking at from the POV of the club owner. He isn't hiring the dancers since they can leave at any time. He is allowing them to use his property and represent his club. The owner has a lot of stake in his club. The dancers do not. So he has every right to decide who to allow work on the property.
So then why does he allow dirty, nasty, ugly, aggressive, RUDE, and unlikeable dancers on his property again and again? I think you've just contradicted yourself completely, if you are still lobbying for customer service rights as before?
In addition, although I know you are the king of all knowledge X, allow me to make you aware of something. In many clubs, the owner is seldomly even there and doesn't do jack! Its up to management to create and implement such rules.
Considering that I have owned my own business, and the work I do know is similar to business ownership, I hope I can understand both sides just a little bit.
xdamage
01-08-2008, 07:02 PM
Dancer housefees are insignificant.
Now you are arguing a different argument then the dancers and customers like to argue around here.
The common argument around here is that SC owners make good money off dancers by charging house fees. You are now arguing it is not good money, it is just "greed" for the sake of it. I'm going to let you argue with others about that.
But there is a good reason to charge house fees and I'd do it too. If a girl can't average a certain amount per night minimum, I'd want to fire her, but the great thing about house fees, I wouldn't need to. Because if she can't make it night after night eventually she is going to leave of her own accord. Simple for me. No legal hassles for wrongful firing. No drama from her slashing my tires for firing her. It just works itself out. And seriously, there is no reason why I should let any contractor use my property that can't average a minimum of income for the club of $150 a night. If I had an employee, I'd sure expect them to earn more for my company that $150 a night because I'm paying them more then that. You all don't want to be employees fine, but you wouldn't get to use my property for free either.
As far as making money strictly off the bar... when you have your club then you settle for just the bar mark up. Your choice. I think it's ridiculous to call some other business person greedy though because they want to make more. They are no more or less greedy then the dancers. You both want more, more, more. Plenty of greed going around on all sides.
yoda57us
01-08-2008, 07:10 PM
Well, yeah... but you get these other things - the mileage and the cheapness - that I really and honestly thought customers in general would value more. So I'm not sure you can characterize it as a "decline" in general.
Well, I do, you obviously can choose not to. It really doesn't matter other than for the purposes of this debate. It is what is presently is and if I didn't enjoy my visits I would stop going.
And "Unprofessional" brings us back to what "professionalism" means. It is not an approach sent down by god. (Well Svelt and I agreed that exotic dancing might be better characterized in general as a job than as a profession). Even in a field with built in accountability mechanisms - medicine for example - "professionalism" is based on what most professionals in the field do; consumer expectations are adjusted to match that (even more so in such fields).
Um yeah, Honestly Jenny, I didn't read most of the stuff between you and Svelt...OK, I didn't read any of it...I happen to believe that dancing is a profession and there are professional and non-professional ways to act around customers. A professional dancer doesn't call a customer an asshole when he politely declines both a lap dance and a "mercy tip". Yes, this happened to me and I'm not going to make any adjustments to my personal belief of the way someone who wants my money should talk to me in order to allow it to be OK for her to call me names. I guess there may be a difference between working in a "profession" and just acting professionally but rude and obnoxious behavior is still a bad character trait in any job or profession other than maybe a professional wrestler...and is that really a profession?
Although in my bar the waitresses are very pretty and get harassed by customers all the time. They are, by and large, older and past getting mad on a normal basis. One girl is younger and one day after being told that she should be a dancer for the 800th time by a customer who grabbed her butt she sort of freaked out: "You think I should be a dancer so that you can reject me the way you've been rejecting these other girls all night?" She said later that none of these guys think she should dance because they are going to start spending hundreds of dollars a week on her; they just want her to be available to them. You have to imagine it with a slight accent.
I've heard similar stories. It sucks. I don't think I'm saying that no dancer, barmaid or waitress ever has an excuse to get mad. Hell, there are plenty every night. There is a delicate balance between being upset by an incident but otherwise being a friendly member of a service industry and being an angry person all of the time.
Not an accusation against you personally Yoda - although I realize I said "you" I meant the more general like "you guys" "you" - like "customers". I'm sure you are a delightful customer, a wonderful man and an amazing human being.
Well, let's not get crazy Jenny, I do have my moments though....
Are you sure? And if you are sure - how sure are you?
Yes, I'm sure. Positive.
I think you can help it, Yoda. You just aren't trying hard enough. Okay, kidding. I don't contest what you just said - but I would say that more guys are looking for "that" than who are looking for "not that" if you know what I mean. And the natural result of that market demand is the privileging of girls who provide "that" over girls who provide "not that."
I think I agree with "that"
Okay - I think we're working in circles a bit here. Like - does the attitude cause the lowered expectations or is it the result. I personally can't look at a stripper expecting to make more than minimum wage and think "entitlement problem" myself.
Well, it could be either. This depends on the woman and how she reacts to the realities of the job. I don't think any woman decides to become a dancer thinking that she will be happy making just slightly more than minimum wage. I could be wrong of course which would actually blow my whole entitlement theory right out of the water. But I don't think I am.
Sorry - again just using you as an example. Not indicting your spending in any way. But you've mentioned repeatedly that you go in on slow days so as to be able to pay less than the standard price; and while she may do other dances with other guys, you've also been clear (or at least I've gotten the idea) that you do expect a certain amount of "free" time in addition to what you spend on dances. So - if she got really, really busy all the time and couldn't sit with you for the afternoon in exchange for your hour - would you still keep going back or would you find someone that would/could? This is not criticism - please don't take it as such.
Jenny, I don't take any of this as a criticism, trust me on this. I don't go to clubs seeking the sort of arrangement I currently have with the gal in question. I go to a lot of clubs. She is one dancer in one club who I happen to enjoy spending time with above all of the other dancers in all of the other clubs that I go to. What we do and the way we do it is something that evolved over a period of time. It is not a situation that I set-out to establish. The flat fee was actually her idea as she just prefers it to counting dances. We both trust each other enough to be able to do it without either party feeling that they are being taken advantage of. Being adults we actually talked about my visits and the ground rules a long time ago. She only works a couple of days a week and they are both slower days. There is no way I would do anything that would cost her money any more than she would let me. We have a simple arrangement between two adults that is mutually beneficial. It hasn't happened in a while but there have been occasions when she had a live one spending like crazy on her in VIP and I just didn't want to hang around for two or three hours until she was free. No biggie. I always have a plan B but I will always go back and see her. This is unique situation between two people. I know plenty of dancers and plenty of customers that this sort of thing would never work with. Just spend a few hours reading customer convo and this becomes painfully obvious...I stopped being a needy regular three or four Brazilians ago...
I never imagined that you were chaining her down, Yoda (I just don't picture you having that level of kink; and if you did you'd call an escort) -
Actually most escorts won't let you chain them down, I would probably have to go to a Dungeon for this sort of thing...
I was just pointing out an opposing pov - that so far as that arrangement goes the strip club experience has not declined at all. It has in fact been heightened.
Well, as I said, the situation is unique. Of course, I also said that I enjoy my visits even when not with the "Monday afternoon girl". I don't think I ever said I don't enjoy my visits. I enjoy watching baseball on television too even though there are more commercials and game delays now than there were 20 years ago. I enjoy driving even though there is more traffic now than there was twenty years ago and gas costs three times as much.
As a citizen of a free nation it is my right to complain about things and say that nothing is as good now as it was twenty years ago...
Older guys frequently prefer older dancers. Except me. I did better with older guys when I was a kid. Now I do better with younger guys. Since I am an older dancer - I have no desire to change that predilection in anyone.
Agreed, I think your approach has merit.
And did she come out and say "So what the fuck do you want?" I'm kidding - but you see? It may not be a "decline". Just a redetermination of what is required from the business and what the business is worth.
Well again, it's all about our different perspectives of the situation here Jenny. You may define all of what I am whining about here as a redetermination and as a dancer's, or even a club owner's POV that is perfectly valid. I'm an old fart who sees a difference in clubs and attitudes, some, not all, now vs. fifteen or twenty years ago. I see it as a general decline but not serious enough to effect my ability to have fun in a strip club.
xdamage
01-08-2008, 07:12 PM
So then why does he allow dirty, nasty, ugly, aggressive, RUDE, and unlikeable dancers on his property again and again? I think you've just contradicted yourself completely, if you are still lobbying for customer service rights as before?
I wasn't lobbying for CS rights. I don't care. As far as I am concerned the SC industry is on a downward spiral and it won't get better, and I spent almost nothing on my last trip due to bad service. But I don't care. It is not my daily bread being affected.
Why does he allow it? Who cares. Maybe they give him sex. Maybe the play him and hint at sex the way they do customers. Maybe he likes their look and they make big money. If they make enough the owner may put up with more crap. Maybe he likes their look and wants to round out the club with a certain look? Who cares. It's the club owners choice.
Why not start your own club and let girls work there without collecting fees? See how it goes. Me, I think I'd rather use fees to weed out girls who can't cut it. Hopefully the one's who can't even make $150 a night for the club every night (on average) will eventually leave. But if you'd rather track their financial progress in other ways, and fire those who can't cut it, go for it. Or maybe you'd rather not collect money from LDs or VIP and just let the dancers keep it all while you only collect drink money. Fine, do it, but until you are doing it, it doesn't carry much weight with me to complain that the club owners are greedy for wanting a greater slice of the pie. You are not in their shoes doing any better.
Casual Observer
01-08-2008, 07:45 PM
Well, I thought that what I meant by decline was sort of hinted at in the post-a lower percentage of pleasant and attractive dancers and a higher percentage of bad attitudes brought on by an unprofessional approach and low earnings. FWIW, I find the attitude even extends to some waitresses and barmaids.
Have to agree with Yoda's post on this matter. Setting aside the current trend of hiring chubby and/or ugly dancers if they'll pay the house fees, it's just a pervasive attitude of entitlement and misplaced dissatisfaction that permeates so many SCs now. I now routinely leave with more money in my pocket than I spend--and as little as five years ago, it was more of a break even split. Ten years ago, I regularly left with just cab fare. And it's not just a New England thing, Yoda, though it seems particularly acute here.
As ever, it seems like Jenny is talking about an industry environment that doesn't exist. Are you sure you're a stripper, Jenny?
Jenny
01-08-2008, 07:47 PM
As ever, it seems like Jenny is talking about an industry environment that doesn't exist. Are you sure you're a stripper, Jenny?
Hey, CO - know what I'm sure of? That you're not a stripper. I have far more confidence in my own experience than in yours.