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Lapaholic
01-08-2008, 08:26 PM
^^^ All i know is I am quite tired of your attitude and your overwhelming sense of entitlement ;) .... PLus you only wrote 3 friggin' sentences - u must need some caffeine!!!

Jenny
01-08-2008, 08:44 PM
Oh you say the attitude matters now. But tomorrow when I'm doing the proverbial extras at half price it won't be so damn important.

Katrine
01-09-2008, 12:06 AM
dfs;dhg'sdfjdf'oj'goxdo'j

Bob_Loblaw
01-09-2008, 12:25 AM
^^^ Agreed

xdamage
01-09-2008, 07:45 AM
Hey, CO - know what I'm sure of? That you're not a stripper. I have far more confidence in my own experience than in yours.

/shrug. In war there are different POVs. There is the POV of the soldiers, the POV of the Generals, the POV of the civilians. They often differ quite a bit as to where responsibility lies, but whose POV do we say is the correct one? Often times ALL of them even when they disagree. Still, it is rare that individuals can put aside their POV for a bit and see that the others are valid too if they just step back and see the big picture. There is a customer POV. A club owner POV. And of course a dancer POV, but knowing the dancer POV well does not mean you are seeing the whole story, the big picture.

xdamage
01-09-2008, 10:51 AM
Setting aside the current trend of hiring chubby and/or ugly dancers if they'll pay the house fees, it's just a pervasive attitude of entitlement and misplaced dissatisfaction that permeates so many SCs now.


I never spent much time in the smaller clubs, but I suppose expectations are relative as far as looks go.

In the bigger clubs it seems to be that some club owners have decided to fill the clubs with as many girls as possible, no matter what they look like. Some believe it is for house fees. Some believe it attracts more customers, the Las Vegas Sapphire's mentality, fill the club with hundreds of dancers so customers are overwhelmed with choices and need not go to any other club to find something they like. Some might argue that dancers are hired if they sleep with the right person. Any, or all of these, or more reasons may be factors.

The dancers then blaim the club owners because they have to split customer money with so many other dancers. Or they argue that looks don't matter, but with the other side of the mouth argue that hiring the ugly girls drags the whole club down, and so on, yet...

Find me one dancer ever on SW that has said, "You know what, I'll step down and give up my job so some other girls who look better then me can take home a bigger share of the pie."

Where is the girl on SW who says, "I'll step down so that the girls with more game can make more money."

Where is the girl on SW who says, "I'll give up my job because frankly my attitude is not as professional as it should be and I'm dragging the industry down."

Where is the girl on SW who says, "I'll give up my job because my age is starting to show and I'm dragging the club experience down for the other dancers."

It has never happened once and probably never will. Who wants to be first?

Who wants to be the one who says "You know what, the industry does hire too many of us dancers. Please start by firing 80% of us, starting with those of us who don't look so good, including me because I'm really not top 20% material."

But that's not human nature. Human nature is everyone wants more for them, wants someone else to step down, wants someone else to give up some of their share, so you have what you have now.

Dancers who blaim club owners for not making enough money.

Dancers who blaim customers for not making enough money.

Dancers who want other dancers (but not themselves) to quit and stop entering the industry so they can make more money.

Me me me. So it goes. It is not hard then to see why some of us see issues with entitlement mindedness.

Katrine
01-09-2008, 07:24 PM
Does Jenny have X on ignore?

X, I'm not going to argue this point with you. You don't know the industry. You don't understand that a lazy, ugly stripper will come back again and again because even if she paid $40 and netted $80, its still more money than working 8 hours for minimum wage.

And there is no "labor law" or firing issue. Half these bitches can barely read, much less have the gumption to hire a labor attorney.

Ok, I'm done. You have made it abundantly clear that you lack an iota of clue about this industry.

Katrine
01-09-2008, 07:28 PM
Who wants to be the one who says "You know what, the industry does hire too many of us dancers. Please start by firing 80% of us, starting with those of us who don't look so good, including me because I'm really not top 20% material."



Me! Me! I'd totally be that person if I was still dancing. Then again, I've always been in the top....

With the possible exception of when I was first starting out. But any industry does need to hire a certain amount of fresh blood. And that fresh blood may not bank hugely until they learn the ropes.

Casual Observer
01-09-2008, 08:04 PM
Who wants to be the one who says "You know what, the industry does hire too many of us dancers. Please start by firing 80% of us, starting with those of us who don't look so good, including me because I'm really not top 20% material."

I think Bridgette also espoused this view. Of course, B doesn't exactly have to worry about these things...

xdamage
01-09-2008, 08:24 PM
You don't understand that a lazy, ugly stripper will come back again and again because even if she paid $40 and netted $80, its still more money than working 8 hours for minimum wage.


Even an "ugly stripper" is a human who wants to earn her daily bread. I'm not going to judge her for it. It's not my call to decide who gets hired and who doesn't, nor am I going to to decide who is good enough.

It would be great though if one real live strip club owner emerged and gave an opinion because while the site is filled with dancers who complain about how the club owners decide, none of them are in the club owners shoes. I hear a lot of pissed off resentment, but no body actually doing any better if put in the same position.



And there is no "labor law" or firing issue. Half these bitches can barely read, much less have the gumption to hire a labor attorney.


That's not what I'd be concerned about. If I was a club owner I'd be far more concerned about one of these illiterate "bitches" would retaliate for being fired. People have a way of doing crazy things when they are booted. More so the illiterate types. The house fees seem like a good self-management system to me. If you can't make at least $N per night for the club, hopefully you'll just go away of your own choice.




I think Bridgette also espoused this view. Of course, B doesn't exactly have to worry about these things...


Yes, she did, although Bridgette sounded like she believed she'd be one of the dancers who would keep their jobs if such a cut happened.

Others like Jenny objected strongly to the notion that she might not look good enough to meet the "grade".

And the real test of truth only counts when B's (and Kat's) genes catch up with her (and they will, they always do) and it's one's own head on the chopping block.

p.s. Of course it is questionable if someone makes a sacrifice to leave if they are already leaving anyway. It's the one's who had no plans to leave the industry, who are making some money (even if it is not a lot of money) who have a lot to lose if tomorrow there was a great stripper firing.

Lapaholic
01-09-2008, 08:55 PM
^^^ Well Jenny would make the grade - I mean she at least will bring some Cheetos ...

But who would be fired... Your "chubby" ( or was that CO's) is someone else's dream girl. Maybe the prob is that club owners like to parade 20 girls but can only get 15 guys in. ( Thats very common here on weeknights at this local club and Ill tell ya as a customer its not pretty what happens. So i have stopped going.)

Plus im not sure there are genes for lazy strippers ... yet

[Off TOpic]
X - I have a book for ya - I got it for my son for xmas... "Farewell to Alms" by Gregory CLark (http://www.amazon.com/Farewell-Alms-Economic-History-Princeton/dp/0691121354/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199936783&sr=8-1) , he believe genetics and natural selection were the force behind the Industrial revolution. Im over simplifying but if someone would enjoy this book I think u mite - heck u may have read it...

xdamage
01-09-2008, 09:06 PM
Well Jenny would make the grade - I mean she at least will bring some Cheetos ...

You probably weren't here, but Jenny and Bridgette had quite a long thread going about this very topic, and Jenny argued she wasn't good enough looking. Now knowing Jenny, who likes to put her own looks down, it may just have been something she says (so we will say the opposite, and indirect request for compliments) or maybe some other reason, but anyway...

Jenny had a valid point though, the gist of which is, okay, maybe she is not a "top earner" but she makes enough for her. Who is to say she should drop out (or anyone like her) to leave more money for the "top earners" who are splitting pie with hundreds of other girls who are not top earners?

The "top earners" would love it of course, but then doesn't that smell a bit self-centered? entitlement?

I mean in what business does anyone say "I am a top earner, so the secondary and tertiary earners should leave so I can make more". Competition is part of a free economy. I mean you have to be what? entitlement minded? something? to think that that the system is unfair because you have to split a pie with competitors who aren't as good as you are.

But the argument goes that not only are they having to split pie, but that filling the clubs with average looking women decreases the experience for the customers, so hurts those who look exceptionally good. So if that is the real reason, which of the girls on SW want to give up their jobs to improve the customer experience?

xdamage
01-09-2008, 09:23 PM
But who would be fired... Your "chubby" ( or was that CO's) is someone else's dream girl. Maybe the prob is that club owners like to parade 20 girls but can only get 15 guys in. ( Thats very common here on weeknights at this local club and Ill tell ya as a customer its not pretty what happens. So i have stopped going.)

Yea, well a club like that really may be hoping to make enough on stripper house fees to stay in business. Figure 15 customers, each nursing a couple of overpriced beers. Call it 15x$15 = $225. Figure they also paid a door fee. Call it 15x$20=300. So $500 or so during a slow night. This is called a back of the napkin calculation but the purpose of it is to show that SC owners aren't necessarily getting rich.

But the owner has to pay:

Lease.

Utilities.

Salaries to non-dancers.

Re-stock the bar.

Save for repairs.

Insurance.

Licenses.

Pay for the right to play music (it's not free to play music in a private venue).

Lawyers for the occasional lawsuit.

Re-stock supplies (bathroom, etc.).

Cleaning (you have to put money aside to pay janitors, save for repaint, etc.).

Since the strippers don't want to pay door fees, he'd also have to pay of the DJ, and bouncers.

Save some for remodeling.

He is not exactly rolling in dough once you start actually adding up all these costs and tries to run the club without collecting any of the money paid out to LDs, VIP, or stage time. And it would suck if dancers were taking more on average then the club owner. I sure wouldn't want to be a club owner if that was the case. Way too much responsibility and work to clear less then a dancer per night.

Lapaholic
01-09-2008, 09:38 PM
That was a book recommendation for u BTW, i dont have the actual book for ya...


Back to the topic...
Well lets look at it this way - Here in Richmond we have 7 clubs. I dont think there are that many "top performers" to work them. So not only would the "under performers" have to go but so would some clubs. Which obviously happens all the time really. Still not sure where the entitlement is? Without these under performers, the clubs could not exist.

.

Lapaholic
01-09-2008, 09:46 PM
Concerning your SC business model there - thats exaclty my point from before - that puts all the pressure on selling dances. Maybe more so than before when a club was just a strip joint. Its may be just the economics of the industry and its just doomed. I guess I cant lay the blame on any increase in a dancers self-entitlement .


TEll u what tho - mite be fun to do a nationwide study and find out !!! Maybe we could make a case for a federal grant - lol!!!

miabella
01-09-2008, 10:15 PM
pre-internet porn and the overall sexualisation of the culture, in which women were aggressively encouraged to monetise all their relationships with men, you had few clubs and it was different. some were the stuff SWers fondly recall, full of 'entertainers' doing elaborate stage shows and making 1k per night in stage tips, and some were the same crappy dives you still see today. but overall there could simply be fewer clubs and thus plenty of money even for lazy or stuffy dancers.

while people will admit that internet porn and the sheer increase of clubs have had a major effect, you also hear a bunch of dancers talking about how 'it's all in your head' if you aren't making 900 each shift without fail. there's a curious mental disconnect between the slivered pie-reality and the idea (stolen from sales) that somehow everyone can (or should, if only they learn the right techniques) be in the top 20 percent of earners all the time. never happens, but try telling any salesperson that. you have to believe the lie to do well in sales consistently.

xdamage
01-09-2008, 11:33 PM
That was a book recommendation for u BTW, i dont have the actual book for ya...


Back to the topic...
Well lets look at it this way - Here in Richmond we have 7 clubs. I dont think there are that many "top performers" to work them. So not only would the "under performers" have to go but so would some clubs. Which obviously happens all the time really. Still not sure where the entitlement is? Without these under performers, the clubs could not exist.

.

Thanks for the book recommendation.

The entitlement is in various forms, but a key example is dancers who feel they should be able to work at clubs for "free" and with no risk. They want to use the SC owner's facilities, owe nothing to the club owner, offer no guarantee of income to the club, carry no risk if they have a bad night, have the club owner limit hiring so they have to share less with other girls, and so on. Wouldn't we all like that deal in a free market!!! To be able to work for ourselves, and if we have a bad day, carry no expense. If we have a good day, keep everything as profit, no expenses.

Then when challenged that their expectations are immature and unrealistic, they claim the SC owners are "greedy" but they have no spreadsheet of income or expenses to back their beliefs because they are not themselves club owners. They don't have any actual cost of doing business figures. They just believe it the way people believe the world is flat.

In addition, they have no sense of risk vs benefit in business. They don't grasp the basic principle of business which is that the business owner has a greater investment in the business, a greater amount to lose, and the only motivator for doing that is because the business owner intends to make more than the employees or contractors. Entitlement minded youngsters call this "greed". But this is just basic risk vs benefits that is key to a free market economy, and what motivates people to take greater risks.

Many seem to have no sense of what it means to actually own a business, as most are only responsible for themselves, and really don't even seem to grasp what it means to work in jobs where a fuck up is very expensive. When you are a stripper, how often does a fuck up cost a customer life or any significant money? How many strippers have been sued for a job done poorly?

Many also have a twisted idea that they shouldn't have competition because it cuts into their profits. Wouldn't we all like an overseer to remove our competition from the picture? Instead of competing harder, they want it to be easier to make more by having the overseer (the club owners) not hire other dancers who, using various arbitrary scales, the entitlement minded ones don't want to compete with.

We've had strippers on here complaining (almost crying) that they have expenses including clothing, hair, and work outs. It never occurs to them that we all do have those expenses to some degree. Many of us spend far more on business clothing they they do on stripper garb. Most of us go to gyms because it is part of life. Most of us get hair cuts. Maybe the total is slightly less, but it is part of the cost of living and working we all share. Yet some entitlement minded strippers believe they are unique and feel it is UNFAIR they have these expenses.

Katrine
01-09-2008, 11:37 PM
You know something, fuck this. I'm deleting my responses and putting xdamage on Ignore. Dude, lay off the martinis and have a nice life.

xdamage
01-09-2008, 11:53 PM
......

FBR
01-10-2008, 12:22 AM
Seems this thread (to me) has gotten mean even for Blue. I will huddle with Jay. But for now it is locked.

FBR

Amber_Sparxx
01-15-2008, 02:50 AM
I must admit that I am quite pleased to see this thread open again! Thanks!

:D

doc-catfish
01-15-2008, 04:03 PM
I'm taking those cases of New Belgium we slipped you each under the table had nothing to do with the thread being reopened? You know how some of us aren't above offering graft.
:beer:

Katrine
01-15-2008, 06:17 PM
Disinterested Kat is disinterested in this thread.

Svelt
01-15-2008, 08:00 PM
Disinterested Kat is disinterested in this thread.

Svelt sprinkles Katnip all over the thread to rekindle interest.

Svelt ponders various bait to lure Jenny back into the debate.

Svelt wonders what kind of club Amber would open to address these issues...

Svelt suggests Blue form a fund, have Melonie manage it and open a new SC chain :P

mr_punk
01-16-2008, 12:07 AM
Again though - don't you think it sort of depends on what you mean by "decline"? I mean - let's look at it from another angle. Strip clubs are cheap. You can more readily and more easily get a lot more contact. You can - by and large - treat the dancers like trash if that is your inclination. You are more likely (apparently) to successfully meet OTC. This is all stuff that you guys like, right?yeah! ain't it cool?

In fact, I would be willing to bet that the absence of those things would ensure your absence from the club faster than the "attitudes" that are the subject of this thread - no?you can bet your booties, sister. if my steady supply of QPoT (quality piece of tail) equipped with cocktail napkins ever dries up. i'm outta there faster than Randy Moss on a fly pattern.

So why do you think we characterize it as a decline?probably for the same reason strippers get misty-eyed about the good old days back when strippers were getting money showers just for rolling out of bed. funny, i was going to seemingly "upscale" sc during the good old days and as far as looks, attitudes, etc. i don't remember the local strippers being on the cover of Vogue magazine or their decorum a reflection of the finest finishing schools or the height of professionalism. but hey, i've never been much of a drinker. i suppose the good old days always look better in dim lighting and through rose-colored shot glasses or beer goggles. frankly, the notion of strippers (or customers for that matter) shooting themselves in the foot isn't a recent occurance. although, it's still a funny one.

Seems this thread (to me) has gotten mean even for Blue.mean? really? LOL...damn it, i miss all the good stuff. although, kat going into a fit of histrionics is pretty normal. i don't know about x last post, but i sure it probably wasn't anything i haven't seen before. oh well, i hope it was good.

xdamage
01-16-2008, 01:14 AM
Concerning your SC business model there - thats exaclty my point from before - that puts all the pressure on selling dances. Maybe more so than before when a club was just a strip joint. Its may be just the economics of the industry and its just doomed. I guess I cant lay the blame on any increase in a dancers self-entitlement .

I don't know how it is where you live, but around here there are not too many free standing bars. Most of them around here are part of restaurant, hotel, casino, etc. I mean we do have them, but around here they are few and mostly dive bars with a lot of history behind them (so a sufficient older, but reliable customer base). I suppose you can also find them at nightclubs, but we don't have any of those near where I live. Maybe in the City where yuppies pay $300 for self service bottles of Grey Goose.

Anyway... making it as a pure bar owner is a risk anyone is welcome to take but I sure wouldn't do it. And in other settings that have bars, there is no body saying there is so much pressure on to the bar to convince customers to gamble, or buy food. It's just understood the idea is to bring customers into the establishment, and get them to spend money, period. And if you are going to bring them in, they are only bringing so much money. At least in a free standing bar you know they are brining their money to spend on booze. In a bar with strippers, there is competition for the green in their pockets.

Times change. The novelty of dancers in a bar was a model that worked at one point in time, but things change. I'd like to see someone open a mega-club that lived only off the bar while the larger percentage of the money walked out with the contractors, contractors who you let work for free, no risk to them if they make nothing. Please, someone do it because if that's such a wonderful business model, someone should step up and go for it.

fancygirl
01-16-2008, 03:31 AM
okay, I've been drawn to blue side after a few weeks of my computer being a broke piece of shit (not that I post often, but I do lurk on occasion.)

I tried to read this whole thread in one go, but I only made it halfway down page 2 (post #40.)

In the exchanges between Jenny, Rick, and Amber up to Page 2 (and I will read the rest, but the only thing that would keep me reading would be drama, and this drama isn't even interesting enough to break out the popcorn) I am reminded of one of my favorite parts of Pretty Woman.

Julia Roberts goes back dressed to the nines to the snobby saleswoman who refused her as a client. She identifies herself as the trashily dressed woman who had approached her the day before, asks if she works on commission, and then when the saleswoman says "yes," Roberts waves tons of designer-labeled bags in the air and says "BIG mistake. HUGE!" She says "HUGE!" as she is turning away, enlarged eyes, and almost shaking her head like she doesn't understand how the saleswoman could have been such a dunderhead to begin with.

In our business: Dunderhead= half-assed dancing that shows one doesn't want to be there, not going farther than "wanna dance?," and then following up a negative answer with something sarcastic/pathic/or just lame like "I figured."

In this scenario, Rick is the Pretty Woman-- he gave her $25 and basically approached her to a) change how she would view custys in the future, b) just to see what happen and then comfort that niggling little need in himself to point out bad sales techniques.

Does that make him a bigger person? no.
Do I think it was a good idea for him to approach her? yes.
Would I have done it in his position? yes (if I really wanted a dance with her but needed to check to see if she'd change her attitude first)

also, I pull experiments on custies all the time. It doesn't make me condescending or a bad person. It merely marks me as a curious person, and in some cases, bored.


However, I think it means something that that one particular scene is probably my favorite part of the whole movie.

fancygirl
01-16-2008, 03:45 AM
Training program, buddy for 1 - 3 shifts, and follow a set protocol for write-ups, suspensions, and termination.

only so long as the training programs, write-ups, suspensions, et. al. are also applied to management, waitresses, bartenders, and the door girls who eff up my reciepts at least once a week.

Jenny
01-16-2008, 05:54 AM
Interesting enough, FG, when I watched that movie I was like "Oh, yes. It would be shocking if you walk into any given establishment dressed like that that you would be asked to leave." I've seen girls asked to leave a Starbucks for being dressed like that And of course a streetwalking prostitute would a) not realize that she is dressed like a streetwalking prostitute b) not own any other clothes and c) not think to go home and change first. Like, of course if you're a hooker you lack eyes and cannot see that not everyone is a hooker or that not everyone dresses like you and you would naturally enough lack any sense of what is appropriate in non-hooking situations. And really, those saleswomen are now thinking what? "Gosh. We'd better ditch that no shirt, no shoes, no streetwalkers policy on the off chance one of them can buy something"? I doubt it. We all know that was a fluke caused by this woman's drastic and dramatic underdeveloped sense of the appropriate.

I hate that scene. It offends me on behalf of prostitutes, sex workers and women in general. I also get annoyed at the strippers in "The Replacements" (although that also offends me with its glorification of scabbiness).

southernspice07
01-16-2008, 06:20 AM
Amber, I think I understand where your coming from. Life's tough enough and this business is hardcore. Your basically need T-N-A and a reason to work in a SC. Whatever your reasons for doing so make the most of it! Have fun. Shake those pockets for whatever you can. Just don't get so wrapped up in it that you feel that it's your LIFE. I'm not degrading anyone here as I shake my ass for cash as well, but come on guys it's all a fantasy. We're all in it it for one thing.

fancygirl
01-16-2008, 04:08 PM
Jenny-- she had a shirt, she had shoes, and as far as I know "no streetwalkers" is not posted in the window. I can understand the snootiness, but then again, we've all had shitty customer service-- it's just that the retribution to be had for bad customer service is pretty rare.

I'm sure there are at least one or two instances in most dancers' experience when a man who was scuzzy, and not dressed appropriately for the club, appreciated a gracious dancer's attention and (surprisingly) spent some money. Now, we could quibble about the fact that the man should not be allowed in dressed like that but the point is-- it's the attitude of the saleswoman that determines making a sale in both this situation and the situation of Pretty Woman. It doesn't take extra effort to be gracious (except in cases when the potential customer is extremely rude and in that case, graciousness is a take-it-or-leave-it option), and even if the woman wanted to eject Julia Roberts' character from the store, there were more GRACIOUS ways to go about it.

Same with the lame-ass dancer who after getting twenty bucks from one guy on stage can't do any better than "wanna dance?" and then follows with such wittiness as "I figured." It doesn't matter if you read this with a bitchy tone or an eyeore tone-- there is an attitude here that is not conducive to sales or fond memories on the part of the customer.

I don't know why the Pretty Woman scene would offend you-- except that yes, it's an obvious stereotype. However, any human being has been in a situation where they've had someone be needlessly rude to them, and are (momentarily) helpless to address it, and thus mortification comes into play.

mr_punk
01-16-2008, 10:47 PM
I am reminded of one of my favorite parts of Pretty Woman.
Pretty Woman? ah yes, the quintessential movie for strippers, WK and sugar daddies.

Would I have done it in his position? yes (if I really wanted a dance with her but needed to check to see if she'd change her attitude first)hmmm...fuck that. i wouldn't give the bitch a dime. i don't care if she has a bright red cape emblazoned with an "S" hanging out of the crack of her ass. sorry, but when a customer is working harder than the stripper. it's time to move on and let her hang herself for the rest of the night or let some unsuspecting sucker jump on the grenade and give away his money like a sap.

also, I pull experiments on custies all the time. It doesn't make me condescending or a bad person. It merely marks me as a curious person, and in some cases, bored.funny. normally, jenny would say you're being rude or socially inept, but since you're a woman. i'm sure you qualify for the NOW free pass.

It doesn't matter if you read this with a bitchy tone or an eyeore tone-- there is an attitude here that is not conducive to sales or fond memories on the part of the customer.sure, but here is the funny thing about sc customers. contrary to the cries about the decline of the industry in this thread. paradoxically, many customers like Rick1 will, as doc-catfish mentioned earlier, bail these girls out time and time again.

Jenny
01-17-2008, 08:30 AM
I'm sure there are at least one or two instances in most dancers' experience when a man who was scuzzy, and not dressed appropriately for the club, appreciated a gracious dancer's attention and (surprisingly) spent some money.
Sure... there is room for all events in the universe. But I'm not going to go and try to be charming and sell to a guy who looks homeless on the storybook premise that he could be a millionaire in disguise. Chances are good that if you are dressed like a homeless man you have the income of a homeless man. If you're going to kiss a million frogs hoping for a prince, it is vaguely and distantly possible that you will eventually find one - but either way you are wasting a whole lot of time on frogs.


Now, we could quibble about the fact that the man should not be allowed in dressed like that but the point is-- it's the attitude of the saleswoman that determines making a sale in both this situation and the situation of Pretty Woman. It doesn't take extra effort to be gracious (except in cases when the potential customer is extremely rude and in that case, graciousness is a take-it-or-leave-it option), and even if the woman wanted to eject Julia Roberts' character from the store, there were more GRACIOUS ways to go about it.
Again - I'm sort of focusing on "what kind of moron would think that is a appropriate way to dress in a boutique?" I mean she only lives like 40 minutes away. She has money for a cab. Why would anyone just walk around like that when she is not working? Moreover, after she was ejected instead of going to the hotel and crying about it, why wouldn't she think "Gosh - maybe I am dressed a little inappropriately for this shopping experience. Why don't I go home and put on a pair of pants and shoes that aren't thigh high hooker boots?"


Same with the lame-ass dancer who after getting twenty bucks from one guy on stage can't do any better than "wanna dance?" and then follows with such wittiness as "I figured." It doesn't matter if you read this with a bitchy tone or an eyeore tone-- there is an attitude here that is not conducive to sales or fond memories on the part of the customer.
I don't really see your point. I'm not really interested in whether or not she is a good saleswoman - although I actually maintain that "wanna dance" is a perfectly viable sales technique in this field. I mean - I think it is ridiculous to spend your time at work performing "little experiments" on customers. I don't know that it justifies a customer striking that attitude with you, and then claiming that because he gave you $5 he can take any tone he wants. My evaluation of your methods of work don't really need to extrude inappropriately onto your life, you see?


I don't know why the Pretty Woman scene would offend you-- except that yes, it's an obvious stereotype. However, any human being has been in a situation where they've had someone be needlessly rude to them, and are (momentarily) helpless to address it, and thus mortification comes into play.
It offends me because it a) assumes that hooker is a hooker 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and cannot "turn it off" even for half an hour of shopping; b) it assumes that a hooker is so innately stupid that she lacks even the most elementary social cues (and note - the movies is not about a sad, autistic girl who is recruited into life on the street. Julia Roberts is meant to be a pretty fucking top example of a street walker). Like I said - any normal person would have realized that she was inappropriately dressed; c) because it condescends to the audience... well throughout the movie, but especially in that scene in which we are expected to believe that she is very hard done by because sales associates don't share her social retardation and are all "Are you stupid? You can't expect us to serve you when you are dressed like that"; d) because it assumes that women are completely helpless to solve their own problems and need men to intervene so that they can buy clothes. I mean really - she could have just gone home and changed rather than having all these guys make calls, take time out of their work days to hold her fucking hands over the issue. Instead of taking 1 stupid minute and working out the reasonable solution - go home and change or buy a sundress and a pair of sandals off the rack she needs men to fix it for her. Yeah... I mean, I guess besides all those things it is pretty inoffensive. But you know. Feminists are touchy.

Lapaholic
01-17-2008, 09:37 AM
I don't know how it is where you live, but around here there are not too many free standing bars.


Here it is SC only and the SC can only serve beer and wine ... Some do have food but ... bleh ... That is the model I am most familiar. ANd there are those that do not service any alcohol at all to allow nude dancing - those clubs are mostly in MD and NJ. U would have to see some of these clubs to understand.

But u know 20-30 years ago we would be complaining about having to buy a girl a 15 dollar cocktail.

Svelt
01-17-2008, 09:54 AM
d) because it assumes that women are completely helpless to solve their own problems and need men to intervene so that they can buy clothes

What?

You mean women can buy their own clothes?




Svelt runs off to make another Pretty Pretty Princess...

xdamage
01-17-2008, 11:24 AM
Here it is SC only and the SC can only serve beer and wine ... Some do have food but ... bleh ... That is the model I am most familiar. ANd there are those that do not service any alcohol at all to allow nude dancing - those clubs are mostly in MD and NJ. U would have to see some of these clubs to understand.

I recall walking into a true titty-bar around 15-16 years ago when I visited San Diego on business. I believe it really was a bar first, women waking around topless and dancing on the pole for tips second. There were no private dances though. Drinks, pool, sports on the television, and topless women walking around asking for a dollar, also doing sets the little stage with pole.

But that was in San Diego, and even back then there were Strip Clubs (e.g., Deja Vu, and Cheetahs) that were first strip clubs that also happened to sell drinks, and very tame private dances as compared with today.

Same regarding alcohol - not allowed in all nude clubs I have visited either.

For the most part though, I rarely think of SCs as bars with strippers, but more often as Strip Clubs that happen to also have a bar (no different then a restaurant, hotel, or casino has a bar). So from that point of view, it's not a surprise that the owners are trying to make money off the stripping first, bar second.

The only surprise to me is the strippers that seem to be entirely oblivious to why it is they should have to "pay to work". Literally, they seem to believe they should be allowed to use the SCs facilities, let someone else foot the bill for the club, while they should keep all money they make for themselves. It's so blatantly twisted to me I just go "huh?" No financial responsibility at all to the owner of the facility.

Maybe some of the mindset I am thinking of is tied in with the economic insanity of the early 90s? Companies in the USA spending far more money then they earned, burning venture capital with no real plan for paying it back, hiring people in a frenzy, paying insane salaries, economics that made absolutely no long term sense, and FINALLY crashed and burned. A lot of the wonderland tales of stripping are from dancers who danced during that era of financial insanity when people were running businesses on venture capital.

It is funny because I've worked with multiple CEOs and bosses who it turns out really are unable to understand the basic concept of cost vs income. The good old, we are losing money on every transaction, but we will make it up in volume mentality.

Svelt
01-17-2008, 11:42 AM
Maybe some of the mindset I am thinking of is tied in with the economic insanity of the early 90s? Companies in the USA spending far more money then they earned, burning venture capital with no real plan for paying it back, hiring people in a frenzy, paying insane salaries, economics that made absolutely no long term sense, and FINALLY crashed and burned. A lot of the wonderland tales of stripping are from dancers who danced during that era of financial insanity when people were running businesses on venture capital.

It is funny because I've worked with multiple CEOs and bosses who it turns out really are unable to understand the basic concept of cost vs income. The good old, we are losing money on every transaction, but we will make it up in volume mentality.

I recall this mindset, and I always associate it with spending other peoples money. Its really easy for some people to get into really weird fiscal positions when they are spending other peoples money. But when its your money, suddenly that whole make sense, real return thing is much more important.

Every once in awhile someone I know wants to open a club, my first question is "With your money or someone elses?", the second question being, "Have you ever even worked in a club?" third being "As management?" I always get these blank stares back, and then they continue to blather on about opening a club. I just smile and say "Sure I can help, as long as its your money and you actually pay me. :) "

InLoveWithaStripper
01-17-2008, 12:38 PM
Hey Jenny, are you tie-dying your panties? you certainly have them bunched up enough to do so. Lighten up a bit, Pretty Woman is just a movie, no need to be offended by it.

FancyGirl, hell yeah on "little experiments". I do that at my job too and it's really interesting and informative. Jenny, you should try getting inside someone else's head before you knock it. That's like saying that you hate a certain food before even eating it. LOL. You amuse me, Jenny. You inspire me, FancyGirl

Jenny
01-17-2008, 12:58 PM
Hey Jenny, are you tie-dying your panties? you certainly have them bunched up enough to do so. Lighten up a bit, Pretty Woman is just a movie, no need to be offended by it.
Well gosh. Thank you for letting me know that deconstructing pop culture was not necessary to keep the earth turning and gravity turned on. That is helpful information. Dude - seriously. If you're not interested in the pop culture analysis you might as well just skip all of my posts. I even promise that if you do I won't be offended.


Jenny, you should try getting inside someone else's head before you knock it.
Yeeaahhh... see, here's the thing. I personally don't find trying to elicit a particular behaviour from someone to be a) challenging or b) elucidating or c) interesting. Nor do I get a smug sense of my own superiority when I do - because, after all, humans are social and tend to conform to social rules. But you know - you find what you find interesting - playing lame mind games with your coworkers - and I find what I find interesting - subjecting Pretty Woman to more analysis that it was reasonably expecting to endure. Really, I think we both look pretty foolish to outsiders - but hey. I stand by my hobbies.


You amuse me, Jenny. Then it's kind of a shame that you don't amuse me at all. You should probably... you know. Do something about that. Quick. Say something funny.

fancygirl
01-17-2008, 01:14 PM
Sure... there is room for all events in the universe. But I'm not going to go and try to be charming and sell to a guy who looks homeless on the storybook premise that he could be a millionaire in disguise. Chances are good that if you are dressed like a homeless man you have the income of a homeless man. If you're going to kiss a million frogs hoping for a prince, it is vaguely and distantly possible that you will eventually find one - but either way you are wasting a whole lot of time on frogs.


if a guy looks homeless, you'll just ignore him without first approaching to see how he acts. fair enough.

however,
if Rick's dancer looks like a bitch, acts like a bitch, and therefore Rick treats her like a bitch by advising her not to to act like one-- Rick's the one that's done something wrong?

he's gone one step further in giving her the benefit of the doubt. And yes-- it may have been an experiment to do so, but if she had suddenly perked up and he bought dances, that's the whole point of giving the benefit of the doubt.

was it an experiment to see if she'd perk up? yes.
Is anyone allowed to give free advice? yes
do I find it more acceptable to accept free advice that has some constructive criticism if the gentleman has first paid some money? yes (only because the broke ones always want to offer advice and never money.)

and dancers run experiments all that time. That's what hustle hut is about-- we try something randomly, or we try something suggested, and experiment on different customers to see who that tip will work on.

experimentation, barring germany 1940s era experimentation, is not always a bad thing.

however, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree, as you're just going to say how condescending and patriarchal Rick was being by a) giving advice, b) making an experiment out of it in a dead club, and c) giving money during the course of the experiment.

and no, not all feminists are touchy like that. We don't all share your narrowmindedness. And we can like Pretty Woman! Amazing the different types of people that can share that somewhat broad term.

Jenny
01-17-2008, 01:34 PM
if a guy looks homeless, you'll just ignore him without first approaching to see how he acts. fair enough.
Thank you - work smarter, not harder. I've generally found - through intensive experimentation and experience - that the homeless population are not big spenders. I know, I know - it sounds elitist, and normally I'm kind of a social program princess. But this is just one case in which the stereotypes are true.


however,
if Rick's dancer looks like a bitch, acts like a bitch, and therefore Rick treats her like a bitch by advising her not to to act like one-- Rick's the one that's done something wrong?
Yes. All Rick has to do is leave her alone. She didn't pick him out and target him; he did to her.


he's gone one step further in giving her the benefit of the doubt. And yes-- it may have been an experiment to do so, but if she had suddenly perked up and he bought dances, that's the whole point of giving the benefit of the doubt.
Yes, and that would have been fine. If that was all he did. However when people choose to act discourteously... well, that about it. They choose to act discourteously.


Is anyone allowed to give free advice? yes
Well, I'm not suggesting that what he did was illegal. Merely rude. So I disagree. If the "rule" allowing "free advice" is that of a social norm of politeness - no, not anyone is allowed to give it at any time. But you know. I'm Canadian. We're very uptight about the politeness and the courtesy.


do I find it more acceptable to accept free advice that has some constructive criticism if the gentleman has first paid some money? yes (only because the broke ones always want to offer advice and never money.)
Well again. There you go. If a guy pays me for my time and physical affection after we've negotiated that - great. If I'm accepted money in exchange for someone being rude to me... well, I want more than $5. I wish I could say "My dignity is not for sale"... but the best I can do is "It definitely costs more than $5.".


and dancers run experiments all that time. That's what hustle hut is about-- we try something randomly, or we try something suggested, and experiment on different customers to see who that tip will work on.
Well - if we define "experiment" as socializing with customers to make a sale... sure, okay. That is not really the kind of behaviour that is at issue here. We're not talking about being impolite to people. In fact, generally - that's not SUCH a good way to make money.


experimentation, barring germany 1940s era experimentation, is not always a bad thing.
Um no. Again - experimentation is not really at issue here. What is at issue is a type of interaction between people that you are choosing to label "experimental". Dude - just because all ducks fly doesn't mean everything that flies is a duck. Just because I impugn this behaviour doesn't mean that I impugn all behaviours that fit within a broad term you applied to it.


however, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree, as you're just going to say how condescending and patriarchal Rick was being by a) giving advice, b) making an experiment out of it in a dead club, and c) giving money during the course of the experiment.
Yes. How dare I read a post, respond to it, and base my responses in the facts he posted without conforming to the reaction he was trying to elicit. Guess the experiment didn't work this time, did it? Goddam these women with their own minds.


and no, not all feminists are touchy like that. We don't all share your narrowmindedness.
No. You have a narrowmindedness all your own, my friend.


And we can like Pretty Woman! Amazing the different types of people that can share that somewhat broad term.
Indeed. Some of us focus on textual support and some of rely on a feeling evoked. Actually I take it back. I'm completely unwilling to share. Get the hell off of my broad term! Get your own.

Amber_Sparxx
01-17-2008, 04:03 PM
If the "rule" allowing "free advice" is that of a social norm of politeness - no, not anyone is allowed to give it at any time. But you know. I'm Canadian. We're very uptight about the politeness and the courtesy.

We're not talking about being impolite to people.

No. You have a narrowmindedness all your own, my friend.




Maybe instead of whining about people giving advice, we should keep open minds and level heads, and try really hard to not take everything so personally. Furthermore, whether Canadian, American, Australian or Zimbabwean, polite is just that, the opposite of rude, in any nation. You are a poor example of Canadian goodwill, in my observations. You are caustic, haughty, incendiary, and condescending. FG has a good head on her shoulders, a wonderful attitude, and excellent (diplomatic) articulation of her ideas.

Btw, FG, I agree that standard protocols should have to be applied equally across the club. Otherwise, the dancers might grow resentful. No, WOULD grow resentful.

Amber_Sparxx
01-17-2008, 04:08 PM
And I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone to not get into a huff over this. I am starting to think that someone wants to see if they can shut this thread down again by being intentionally volatile and inflammatory. So let's have that good giggle and calm down before we post, ok? I don't think this thread will get a third chance at reincarnation! :P

Jenny
01-17-2008, 04:45 PM
Maybe instead of whining about people giving advice, we should keep open minds and level heads, and try really hard to not take everything so personally.
Again - this is really only applicable when you sort of dismiss everything I say without consideration. I mean - what makes your mind more open than mine? Like I haven't noticed your position alter, so unless you define "open mind" as "agreeing you you" I don't get your point. Maybe the issue is not with the width of my mind, and it is simply that I approach things differently than you do. So let's have an open mind please? You'll notice that I tend to reply to what you say rather than, you know, what I think about you as a person.


Furthermore, whether Canadian, American, Australian or Zimbabwean, polite is just that, the opposite of rude, in any nation. You are a poor example of Canadian goodwill, in my observations. You are caustic, haughty, incendiary, and condescending. FG has a good head on her shoulders, a wonderful attitude, and excellent (diplomatic) articulation of her ideas.
Well again - if you think that accusing me of having a closed mind without actually dealing with anything I'm saying is "diplomatic" - well, then no wonder you agree with Rick. And I mean, are we just sharing our observations and opinions of each other right now? Because I have some thoughts on you - you know; just if you're interested. And - I could even provide you with textual support. I also think it is pretty interesting that you character me as incendiary when all I did was deconstruct a scene of Pretty Woman - I mean compared to your kind of nasty characterizations, So anyway - I don't think you're very nice.

In any case - indicting my character does not really effectively deal with the issue we were examining, does it? I mean, since I wasn't there or anything, my character has nothing to do with how Rick reacted to the dancer, hmm? So maybe instead of complaining about me you could maybe approach the topic?


And I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone to not get into a huff over this. I am starting to think that someone wants to see if they can shut this thread down again by being intentionally volatile and inflammatory. So let's have that good giggle and calm down before we post, ok? I don't think this thread will get a third chance at reincarnation!
Are you serious? Or is this a sophisticated form of performance art? I mean - read what you posted directly above this.

xdamage
01-17-2008, 05:00 PM
...Its really easy for some people to get into really weird fiscal positions when they are spending other peoples money. But when its your money, suddenly that whole make sense, real return thing is much more important....

Yep, I agree completely. That is key.

Docido
01-17-2008, 07:47 PM
I don't know what the true facts are about Rick's encounter, but I do think his social experiment in discourtesy, if it happened as described, is pointless. To borrow Jenny's analogy about homeless people being poor, it's usually safe to assume rude strippers aren't going to suddenly turn into beaming lap dance angels because of my attention or money. So why waste your time unless you get your jollies by manipulating people. Wouldn't it be better and smarter to spend your money elsewhere? The exception would be if I had brought dances from her before and could see she was having a bad night. Otherwise, I run from crabby strippers just about as quickly as Jenny would run from mr. p's lubed-up finger.

FBR
01-17-2008, 08:19 PM
^^ Good point Docido.

Your comment about Punk and Jenny got me thinking, though. Call me crazy but I'm not so sure she would run. I am having this visual of the Punkster whipping out the Astrolube to begin the foreplay and Jenny proceeding to de-construct every one of his moves. I suspect within a couple of minutes he would be the person running :P

FBR

hockeybobby
01-17-2008, 08:27 PM
.

Then it's kind of a shame that you don't amuse me at all. You should probably... you know. Do something about that. Quick. Say something funny.

:rotfl:

hockeybobby
01-17-2008, 08:39 PM
I wish I could say "My dignity is not for sale"... but the best I can do is "It definitely costs more than $5."

another nugget ;D

Jenny, can I use this in my signature? Please ? (if I can figure out how) Just asking...

Hb

FBR
01-17-2008, 09:08 PM
^^ Jenny would like you more if you just..you know..did it. Without permission. She likes assertive, manly men.

FBR