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buffie06
12-24-2007, 12:31 PM
The 'ticket' system proposed by other states avoids this problem, and similar problems that could potentially arise re live theater performances containing nudity etc. - arguably even a Britney Spears concert ! Actually, the Texas 'extra cover charge' tax will directly run afoul of 'equal treatment' constitutionality, since it's just as arguable that an 'extra cover charge' should be leveed on every customer entering a Hooters restaurant or entering a theater. The state of Texas has indeed opened the door for SIN taxes, but like most other 'first attempts' it is going to be used to for legal clarifications ... in this case, exactly what the gov't is allowed to tax, and exactly how the gov't must go about collecting the new tax in order to avoid 'equal treatment' issues vs somewhat similar businesses. So far the 'ticket' system seems to be the answer to all of these 'equal treatment' issues, since Hooters doesn't sell private dance tickets.


which explains why the clubowners will support a 'ticket' system over an extra cover charge tax. This also allows the club to leave private dance prices the same. For example, if the going rate for a private dance is $20, instead of a customer paying the dancer $20 he how pays the club's cash register $20 in exchange for a private dance 'ticket'. He gives the 'ticket' to the dancer and gets his dance. Then at the end of the night, the dancer turns in all of her 'tickets' ... from which the club must keep a 10% tax or $2 from each ticket. The club then pays the dancer $18 per ticket in cash, makes an accounting entry that the club owes $2 times 20 dances or $40 in SIN taxes that must be reported and paid at the end of the month, and makes a corresponding entry that dancer XYZ was paid $18 times 20 dances or $360 that must be reported via an IRS 1099-misc income form at the end of the year.



SO if this ever becomes the case, then we (the dancers) are paying the SIN tax? and how would the ticket system effect the number of dancers? Do you think if all dancers had to acurately report their incomes that there would be a decrease in dancers? We all know a very small percentage of girls pay their taxes or pay what they are supposed to, and the ticket system you mentioned would obviously take care of that. Realistically how long before that is happening?

buffie06
12-24-2007, 12:34 PM
Also, our club started this right after Thanksgiving. We raised the cover charges by 2 dollars, took away free lunches for VIP members, and raised the alcohol prices across the board (for the second time after a different tax and a$7.50 glass of wine is $9.50 now!). There were no raised costs for dancers.

slims099
12-24-2007, 02:38 PM
Some idiot I talked to awhile back tried to make the argument that this whole $5 per person cover tax is a GOOD thing for the clubs because the politicians obviously will make more money and never shut down the clubs, even if the police know that certain clubs are known for customers paying for sex there, and that the clubs would be stupid for fighting it. It's possible that this is the case, but I don't think it'll be some sort of protection from the clubs. It's the whole "what else can we put on them" thing. I think it'll get worse if the clubs don't fight it.

The only thing I like about it is that it keeps the fu-fu idiots out of the classy clubs who just want to sit and drink water and not even tip the dancers or spend a dime.

Other than that, relating this "rape victim" tax to strip club patrons is completely insane. I'm embarrassed of our state doing that. I hope our clubs fight it, and the club I go to certainly is.

Deogol
12-24-2007, 06:50 PM
Go and vote in local elections. It matters.

Everyone focuses on the president when it's the congress, the state legislators, the school boards, the city councils, etc. that stir up most of the craziness in this country.

Ack! What's the use - I am shouting in the wind.

We are getting exactly what we vote for in this country.

Casual Observer
12-24-2007, 07:10 PM
if taxing each customer $5 at the door is okay, then taxing them each $5000 at the door is also okay.

Indeed. This is a front for yet another regressive tax.

PrettyCurlieQ
12-24-2007, 09:23 PM
This is insane. I remember a few months ago, I was talking about this with a manager. He was telling me it will never pass, blah blah blah. Well, here we go. It will be nice if it weeds out the cheap mo-fos. But it's still a weird tax IMO.

Melonie
12-26-2007, 12:44 PM
SO if this ever becomes the case, then we (the dancers) are paying the SIN tax? and how would the ticket system effect the number of dancers? Do you think if all dancers had to acurately report their incomes that there would be a decrease in dancers? We all know a very small percentage of girls pay their taxes or pay what they are supposed to, and the ticket system you mentioned would obviously take care of that. Realistically how long before that is happening?

well, Utah already has the percentage tax but it hasn't been enforced so far. Nevada already has an 'entertainment' tax that amounts to the same thing. There's absolutely no way to tell how this might go down on a national level. A lot hinges on the results of next year's elections I suppose. The problem with an adult entertainment tax is that it is an 'easy sell' to the majority of registered voters in place of a property tax increase or a state income tax increase or whatever. Time will tell.


re the $5 extra cover charge tax in Texas - Indeed. This is a front for yet another regressive tax.

Very regressive. This will have a much larger impact on working class customers and small town clubs / dancers than it will on big city clubs / dancers.

poolmaninSATX
12-27-2007, 12:52 AM
I think she meant that she doesn't think the money will actually go to help rape victims, maybe?
I think she meant that too! It sounds like the people she turned to for help were no help at all because they were not properly trained.:'(

miabella
12-27-2007, 01:06 AM
Also, our club started this right after Thanksgiving. We raised the cover charges by 2 dollars, took away free lunches for VIP members, and raised the alcohol prices across the board (for the second time after a different tax and a$7.50 glass of wine is $9.50 now!). There were no raised costs for dancers.


basically, even with free passes and such, one can figure out how many customers came into the club to a pretty good (80 percent or better) degree of accuracy. from there the gov't can extrapolate an estimated owed tax.

most clubs cannot raise the drink prices too high (if they're topless and can sell alcohol, which is most clubs, but definitely not all) or they will lose more business than 'rich' spending customers can make up. so that is a limited way of meeting the estimate.

taking a cut out of each dance COULD happen, but texas clubowners are pretty lazy. a percentage charge, possibly ON TOP OF TIPOUT, could, however, be levied to help arrive at the estimated tax amount if enforcement started happening. and the math is easy.

but back to mel's issue-- a legal fistfight about whether other establishments with 'entertainment' that isn't sexually-oriented have to pay tax or not would be a darned interesting fight.

upscale clubs can raise their prices for a while and be all right. every other club-- screwed!

but this is all if enforcement actually happens and texas tries to get this money. which is really pretty up in the air. it would be awful if the girls were forced into some retarted percentage tipout scale nightly or dance-charges and then the tax was never collected-- which could happen.

i just totally do not approve of this stupid, stupid, stupid tax idea.

add a tenth of a percent to the current sales tax if you want rape-victim crisis center moneys. you can't fail to generate some extra income and the bite is tiny enough that nobody will notice.

this may just be a very backhanded way of getting some or all of the stripclubs to close down.

PrettyCurlieQ
12-27-2007, 08:51 AM
...I do not approve of how they plan to use this tax. Why don't we use it for something resourceful, like helping subsidize inexpensive healthcare for nightclub and adult industry workers?


Fantastic idea! If you're taxing a specific industry, do it to help said industry. Just like America taxes its people to build bridges and fix roads, right?
.
..
...
I just read the whole article, and the my club owner's wife is in it! Players is my sister club...


The owners of Players, a small topless bar in Amarillo, are among those suing the state. They said that adding a $5 tax to the $4 cover could drive away customers and force the club out of business.

"They won't pay it," said Chandra Brown, president of the company that owns Players. "They won't come in. They can't afford it."

miabella
12-27-2007, 01:43 PM
also, the original article said only that 'most of' the money was going to rape crisis centers. which means as much as 49.9 percent of the tax money going to anything else...

PrettyCurlieQ
12-28-2007, 02:23 PM
So I talked to management at my club last night about the SIN tax. Many clubs are raising drink prices and cover charges. My club is going to --and I quote-- "eat the tax". They're just going to pay it out-of-pocket without changing anything extra to the customers. But from what I understand, they are involved in a lawsuit v. the State of Texas with other clubs.

And the DJ used to work at my old club, and he has spoken to management from there.. apparently, they're making the girls wear latex or pasties or something like that. I'm not sure how that works, I've never worn or even see pasties in a club. But I guess clubs have the choice not to pay the tax, but they can't have any nudity. And supposedly if you can't see any part of the areola, it's not nudity. So they're trying to transition the girls to wear pasties, or become a bikini bar, which I also don't understand. :shrug:

Melonie
12-28-2007, 03:04 PM
^^^ sounds like an attempt to skirt the definition of 'adult business' under Texas law ... i.e. a club with no nudity isn't technically an 'adult business' and therefore the SIN tax doesn't apply - same as a Hooters restaurant. However, I suspect that for this to stick from a legal standpoint the club would also have to totally ban contact between dancers and customers, bikinis / pasties / latex or not.

As to your club 'eating' the SIN tax, stand by for an increase in house fees to cover the club's lost profits !

PrettyCurlieQ
12-28-2007, 03:22 PM
^^^ sounds like an attempt to skirt the definition of 'adult business' under Texas law ... i.e. a club with no nudity isn't technically an 'adult business' and therefore the SIN tax doesn't apply - same as a Hooters restaurant. However, I suspect that for this to stick from a legal standpoint the club would also have to totally ban contact between dancers and customers, bikinis / pasties / latex or not.

As to your club 'eating' the SIN tax, stand by for an increase in house fees to cover the club's lost profits !
^Oh I know. They said they won't take it out on us, but I expect they will at least a little bit. Our club is the top bar in town, not just strip club, they run the most sales in the entire city, so there's a chance they have the income to pay for the tax. But I won't be surprised if they do raise housefees.

Also, I was told that my old club will be under heavy supervision, if that's the right word. Apparently, if more than one customer reports seeing anything that counts as nudity, the club will be forced to pay the tax. Also, the rules about VIP dances are changing, but I'm not exactly sure how..

Miss Jessica
12-28-2007, 05:25 PM
SIN tax??? :rotfl:
Thank fucking goodness I live in California.

Susan Wayward
12-28-2007, 06:03 PM
This tax wouldn't even be collected until April, so any club that claims prices are raised because of the tax is probably just a little full of it.

There's an article (http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A575580) in the Austin Chronicle this week about how a strict interpretation of the tax would impact other types of performances, which would bring some respectable allies to the table.

Also, Bob Jensen, porn, stripper, and sex-hating UT journalism prof weighed in with testimony. All UT gals here should look up his history of sex-negative writing; it's a bummer because is is a good journalist and professor, so I am particularly chagrined by his involvement with this.

Susan Wayward
12-28-2007, 06:06 PM
SIN tax??? :rotfl:
Thank fucking goodness I live in California.

Really? They don't tax booze or alcohol in CA? We sure are backwards in TX, durr.

Or perhaps you have never heard of a sin tax. It's a phrase that refers to taxes on anything seen as a vice. You have them in CA.

miabella
12-28-2007, 06:17 PM
that article is pretty keen. it looks like lines are going to get drawn fairly quickly, and that odds are better than even that nobody will be paying the tax for quite a while to come anyway, if at all.

sun child
12-28-2007, 11:36 PM
^ I am going to check out this Bob Jensen guy Susan. He sounds a bit prickish to me. And yeah Miss Jessica there are excise taxes on booze and cigarettes in California—the original sin taxes were levied to pay off the debt from the Revolutionary War and created a precedent that the Federal government would use force against its own citizens to keep 'em in line. Who's up for a Strip Club Rebellion a la the Whiskey Rebellion of 1794? (kidding)

Susan Wayward
12-28-2007, 11:49 PM
SC, he is not a prick, which is why his ideas upset me so much. He's a genuinely idealistic and smart guy who I happen to think is wildly and thoroughly wrong on this issue. I think he should stick with the people of Latin America as a disadvanted group to proselytize for.

Well, the interesting thing we were talking about today at breakfast is that they are basically taxing something people can do in public. Legally, in Texas, Austin in particular, you can be topless or nude in public. For real.

So, conceivably, fifty strippers and performance artists could show up on the lawns of the state capitol and exercise our legal rights in protest of this bill. We could see if any violence was inflicted upon us as a result, something I highly doubt.

Also, we all know about those studies that say Super Bowl Sunday sees a huge leap in domestic violence. Therefore, I think levying a tax on football and hockey tickets would be a more appropriate way to fund help for women in crisis.

Miss Jessica
12-29-2007, 06:56 AM
Really? They don't tax booze or alcohol in CA? We sure are backwards in TX, durr.

Or perhaps you have never heard of a sin tax. It's a phrase that refers to taxes on anything seen as a vice. You have them in CA.

Woah, I learn something new everyday. Well, why don't they tax the pot I buy legally from my friendly neighborhood cannabis club (we have around 20 open in Oakland)? /:O
I don't expect you to know the answer to that question, just a passing thought.

Susan Wayward
12-29-2007, 10:18 AM
Because it's considered medicine if you're buying it "legally" (CA considers it legal but the federal government won't recognize this and persists in trying to shut down medical marijuana clubs). Also, it isn't sold (again, legally) on the same scale as booze and tobacco. Rest assured that were marijuana to be decriminalized they sure as shit would make their tax money off of it.

Miss Jessica
12-31-2007, 01:10 PM
Oh!!!

PrettyCurlieQ
12-31-2007, 01:39 PM
Because it's considered medicine if you're buying it "legally" (CA considers it legal but the federal government won't recognize this and persists in trying to shut down medical marijuana clubs). Also, it isn't sold (again, legally) on the same scale as booze and tobacco. Rest assured that were marijuana to be decriminalized they sure as shit would make their tax money off of it.
There are medical marijuana CLUBS? That is the stupidest thing I ever heard. That's like having an AIDS club or syphillis club. WTF?! If you're sick, why the fuck are you at the club? ::)

Susan Wayward
12-31-2007, 02:22 PM
PCQ, it's a club in the sense that you have to have a membership, not a nightclub. You get a membership and then you can buy your weed there. Like Costco! :)

PrettyCurlieQ
12-31-2007, 02:48 PM
^OIC. Wow, I was having an epilism there for a second.

Miss Jessica
01-02-2008, 08:17 PM
... and you can chill and smoke there (some are "lounge" style), rent a bong or a pipe. Some are cool themes, the one I go to is a space theme. LoL. There's a kickass deli/cafe there too for when you have the munchies. I love the Bay Area!!! :biggrin:

PrettyCurlieQ
01-03-2008, 04:47 PM
I just found out that due to the SIN tax, our town's only all-nude club now requires dancers to wear full tops and bottoms. Not even t-backs are allowed anymore! WTF?!

AND, I know they said the money is going for rape victims, but our club owner told me that some of the money from this tax is going to be allocated for a group whos only goal is to shut down gentlemen's clubs. He's suing the state over this, so they had to give him a list of all the crap the money's going for, officially. It's a bunch of bullshit.

AND not only do clubs have to pay $5 a head for the customers, they have to pay a tax ON TOP OF IT!

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS FUCKING SYSTEM?!

Katrine
01-03-2008, 04:56 PM
The Cali Med. Marijuana IS taxed if it is imported. When illegal imported drugs are confiscated, and the dealers count, import and excise taxes are charged to them. The gov. makes their cut all the way down the chain.

cherry_sin
01-03-2008, 05:10 PM
*Prays this doesn't spread up to Oklahoma*

SundayMorning
01-03-2008, 08:42 PM
I'm surprised it didn't start there, c_s!

So I asked my house mom about this today and she hadn't even heard of it. Hmmmm.....

PrettyCurlieQ
01-04-2008, 08:14 AM
^I thought it was state-wide? You're in SA, right?

SundayMorning
01-04-2008, 08:21 AM
It is and I am...I don't know if she's just ign'ant, or if the management hasn't figured out how they're gonna work with it yet, or what.

PrettyCurlieQ
01-04-2008, 08:25 AM
^They haven't done anything like raise prices or cover? My club started as soon as 2008 began. Well not technically, but on January 1st anyways. If they don't want to pay the tax, apparently they can turn it into a bikini bar like THREE clubs in my city have done thus far. But that changes things like if there's more than one person in VIP at a time, they have to charge $5 for every person in the club. I don't understand all of it, but it's very complicated and very retarded. *tsk tsk*

SundayMorning
01-04-2008, 08:30 AM
Well, ours doesn't show nipple (liquid latex) and the panties have to be the 3/4 coverage rather than t-back thongs and such, so I'm wondering if we're somehow skirting the law as "bikini clubs."

Ahhh I just don't know. Next time I go in to work, I'll ask one of the managers.

PrettyCurlieQ
01-04-2008, 08:32 AM
^Oh, yeah I think that counts as a bikini bar, then. That's what some clubs up here have done, and they're not planning on paying the tax.

dollyrocker
01-06-2008, 12:25 AM
This is the biggest fuckin' bullshit I've ever read.

Adam & Eve were nude in the first chapter of the bible. Perhaps the god fearing folk who created this law should charge a 'sin tax' for reading the bible too. >:( >:(


And if they're so dead set on policing the publics morality, they should tax cheerleaders, drunk 'sluts' at nightclubs, ballet dancers, and swimmers who these days are just as scanitly clad as strippers..... only they subject a greater percentage of the population to their suggestive behavior - including underage kids! :P Hell, why not charge a tax each time a person watches MTV, or sees the Pussycat Dolls live?

If anything, strip clubs are possibly preventing rape. I'd rather someone be so sexually frustrated that they go out and buy a bunch of lap dances, than be so sexually frustrated they go out and rape someone. Thats what strip clubs are ultimately for; to provide a form of sexual release in a safe, controlled envirornment. While donating to rape victims is a noble cause, we all know thats just the excuse they're using. Over time, more and more of the tax collected will funnel it's way into the pockets of government and special interest groups who created it.

I'm glad to hear clubs are sueing the state. I just hope they win.

Here in AZ, theres a lot of clubs that don't even enforce admission fees, namely during the dayshift. While $ in AZ has been going downhill at a frightful pace for some time now, the lack of an admission charge surely helps keeps these clubs afloat. If an extra $5.00 were tacked on to each patrons night out in AZ, we'd be even more fucked.

With that said, I fear for the fate of your TX dancers. I fear that greedy club owners will use the tax as an excuse to exploit dancers further. Adding $5.00 to the cost of each dance is just DUMB, and will alienate a lot of business. If clubs care about their drink sales, they won't do that, if they'd think in terms of 'the longer they stick around and get dances, the more drinks they buy' (the way they SHOULD look at things) When was the last time a guy bought champage and no dances/time for company anyway? And if they care about the future of their business, period, they won't increase house fees. How many customers does a club see per day anyway? I'm guessing that to stick dancers with the tax instead would mean doubling house fees, which could only lead to increased prostitution/illegal conduct within the clubs. Then ALL of Texas would experiance vice raids like Houston did last year. A lil' something club owners should keep in mind, if they want their club to be around in years to come.

In the meantime, I think a wise club owner should charge the $5.00 tax at the door, but do away with the admission fee (or greatly reduce it to say, $1.00), and up drink prices by only 25-50 cents. Then said club would have a competitive edge over other clubs, which would generate more business for itself and more than make up for the loss of admission fees through greater volumes of customers/drink sales. I can't think of a better way for a non-upscale club to stay afloat without price gouging it's customers (thus alienating them) or exploiting it's dancers. Maybe clubs that cater to the upper crust won't be affected by that extra $5.00, but other clubs will be. Wise club owners/managers though, in what world to they exist? :-\

PrettyCurlieQ
01-06-2008, 10:56 AM
My manager was telling me last night that my club and our sister club are members of Texas Entertainment something.. I forget the name, but it's a group where a club pays a membership fee every month, and the group provides legal protection, attorneys, whatever. There are 150 gentlemen's clubs in Texas who are part of this group, and this group is the one who is actually suing the state. I'm glad to know something is being done. The group even sent us a sign explaining the law, and how we believe it's unconstitutional. "Write Your Congressman!"