View Full Version : One scarry ass 911 call...
Deogol
01-12-2008, 02:03 PM
Knock it off. Save for Member Boards.>:(
Ah yea, typical. Reading only half the post.
Deogol
01-12-2008, 02:04 PM
Believe me, the last thing you want to do is argue gun stats with me. It's a topic I have researched a long time. I didn't start the thread to debate gun stats, I put it up a as real world example of a women who used one, and needed one period. There are other threads where guns stats/gun rights, etc were covered in depth.
To many people it is simply a matter of belief and not reason. It would be like trying to prove to the pope God does not exist.
Madcap
01-12-2008, 02:05 PM
Ah yea, typical. Reading only half the post.
Thank god we guys have you to stick up for our rights, deogal. ::)
Deogol
01-12-2008, 02:09 PM
Thank god we guys have you to stick up for our rights, deogal. ::)
Someone has to be the liberal around here.
madmaxine
01-12-2008, 02:13 PM
Back on topic- a lot of the ability to defend one's self is MENTAL! Rapists and muggers often frighten a victim with a verbal attack before physically assaulting them...The use of TERROR to enable an attack is simple math.
If a woman truly feels she cannot use a gun, she needs to consider her options. She can learn self-defense with a knife & make herself mentally ready to defend herself, or she can make evasive actions to avoid the threat of assault (though the last doesn't work for everyone, hence this whole long arguement on the thread.)
Some male assailants are such mental midgets, all they want from their victim is to feel as if they "had the last word" (basically domination.) It's a "caveman" mentality.
I choose to endorse guns because my living situation is such that I would be dead as a doornail by the time help arrived, if I was attacked. I have too much to live for to live in fear and helplessness. I WAS raised with fear of guns...I didn't always feel this way.
To many people it is simply a matter of belief and not reason. It would be like trying to prove to the pope God does not exist.
Agreed. As my old proff used to say "Facts can alter emotions, but emotions can't alter facts."
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think...;)
Paris
01-12-2008, 05:25 PM
Look at the statistics between any European country and the states and you will get your answer more guns are far from the answer no matter how you cut it someone will get hurt.
I'm glad the girl got away alright, but one incident does not negate the bigger picture unless you look at these things objectively you will never come to a rational and reasonable solution.
I don't think being forced to kill an intruder as "getting away alright" is exactly how the victim would describe her own situation.
traumatized would be a better description IMO.
Paris
01-12-2008, 05:34 PM
Back on topic- a lot of the ability to defend one's self is MENTAL! Rapists and muggers often frighten a victim with a verbal attack before physically assaulting them...The use of TERROR to enable an attack is simple math.
If a woman truly feels she cannot use a gun, she needs to consider her options. She can learn self-defense with a knife & make herself mentally ready to defend herself, or she can make evasive actions to avoid the threat of assault (though the last doesn't work for everyone, hence this whole long arguement on the thread.)
Some male assailants are such mental midgets, all they want from their victim is to feel as if they "had the last word" (basically domination.) It's a "caveman" mentality.
I choose to endorse guns because my living situation is such that I would be dead as a doornail by the time help arrived, if I was attacked. I have too much to live for to live in fear and helplessness. I WAS raised with fear of guns...I didn't always feel this way.
Word!
When all else is equal, a woman who puts up any kind of fight is less likely to fall victim to a male attacker. Most women who end up victims were too polite to get in the potential attacker's face when she first felt threatened. That gives the attacker more confidence to pursue his victim.
Ladies, carrying a big attitude will protect you more than a weapon will. Victimizers want easy targets. Don't be an easy target.
Mia M
01-12-2008, 05:42 PM
I don't think being forced to kill an intruder as "getting away alright" is exactly how the victim would describe her own situation.
traumatized would be a better description IMO.
Agreed... just because she isn't a murder victim doesn't mean she's not a victim.
leilanicandy
01-12-2008, 05:59 PM
She filed a restraining order against him and after six police reports, they still didn't take him to jail? The police didn't do jack shit for her. At least she was smart enough to be prepared for what she knew was coming. He got what he deserved. Good riddance to these types of men.
Well yea those restraining order just leave the paper background.
True Mia. Many women don't like guns, period. Many can't own a gun, and many are scared of guns.
That being said, these days and times are so full of crime, it makes me sick..
Please have one or more, but have something whe you are alone.
1) have a dog that barks (great alarms for intruders)
2) an alarm home system
3) pepper spray (hey it CAN help)
4) taser if you are comfortable with these
5) BIG Ball Bat!!!!
;)
Even thats not enought crazy people always find a way.
Someone has to be the liberal around here.
I cant believe you call him liberal. When you are sticking up for a man. Who harass, stalk, broke into a woman house. He was violating her personal space. NOt mention breaking into her home. While she was sleep and choking her! But Madcap is the liberal.
If you truly think Madcap is the liberal. I will assume you are like this such guy. I believe by your posts. You believe that women should be stalk, have thier work doors broken down. Why you must believe it is a man rights to violate a woman personal space. People leave paper trails for a reason. This man did not care, about his paper trail. He did what he thought he could do.
I will tell you one thing! People like you make it necessary for women to carry guns.
What type of fuck up indivuals believes that he has every right to violate someone personal space, break into thier homes and take thier life, rape a person, or stalk and harass people.
Oh I guest stalkers have rights! What right is that to violate people personal space. TO hurt and kill and let other decide if they was right or wrong. I guess she should have stay with that damn idiot. So she can live a totally fuck up life.
I surely do not hope. To meet a entruder in my home. Trying to attack me! The rest of my statement I am taking the fifth on!
Deogol
01-12-2008, 06:09 PM
Well yea those restraining order just leave the paper background.
Even thats not enought crazy people always find a way.
I cant believe you call him liberal. When you are sticking up for a man. Who harass, stalk, broke into a woman house. He was violating her personal space. NOt mention breaking into her home. While she was sleep and choking her! But Madcap is the liberal.
If you truly think Madcap is the liberal. I will assume you are like this such guy. I believe by your posts. You believe that women should be stalk, have thier work doors broken down. Why you must believe it is a man rights to violate a woman personal space. People leave paper trails for a reason. This man did not care, about his paper trail. He did what he thought he could do.
I will tell you one thing! People like you make it necessary for women to carry guns.
What type of fuck up indivuals believes that he has every right to violate someone personal space, break into thier homes and take thier life, rape a person, or stalk and harass people.
Oh I guest stalkers have rights! What right is that to violate people personal space. TO hurt and kill and let other decide if they was right or wrong. I guess she should have stay with that damn idiot. So she can live a totally fuck up life.
I surely do not hope. To meet a entruder in my home. Trying to attack me! The rest of my statement I am taking the fifth on!
God damn! Reading comprehension around here is bad tonight.
I said
WHEN YOU HAVE A DEAD BODY ON THE FLOOR THERE ISN'T MUCH TO ARGUE ABOUT.
Fuckin dumbasses Jesus Christ!
All I was saying is we all think rights for criminals suck until we get in conflict with some cop with a chip on his shoulder or arrested for prostitution, soliciting alcohol, or what have you in a strip club.
But when there is someone lying on the floor with bullets in them next to a broken down door it is pretty obvious what went down.
leilanicandy
01-12-2008, 06:29 PM
God damn! Reading comprehension around here is bad tonight.
I said
WHEN YOU HAVE A DEAD BODY ON THE FLOOR THERE ISN'T MUCH TO ARGUE ABOUT.
Fuckin dumbasses Jesus Christ!
All I was saying is we all think rights for criminals suck until we get in conflict with some cop with a chip on his shoulder or arrested for prostitution, soliciting alcohol, or what have you in a strip club.
But when there is someone lying on the floor with bullets in them next to a broken down door it is pretty obvious what went down.
Well good for you!
Just dont break into my house.
Pamela
01-12-2008, 06:45 PM
Word!
When all else is equal, a woman who puts up any kind of fight is less likely to fall victim to a male attacker. Most women who end up victims were too polite to get in the potential attacker's face when she first felt threatened. That gives the attacker more confidence to pursue his victim.
Ladies, carrying a big attitude will protect you more than a weapon will. Victimizers want easy targets. Don't be an easy target.
True and not. Depends on what "type" of person the attacker is. (i know i am into the Serial Killers which don't fall into this thread)
However the video was clearly a stalking case. These gusy are usually angry at the person (and knows the victim in some form) for whatever reason, or are obsessed and it then becomes the thrill of a chase, hunt and ending.
Endings don't have to end with the victim being killed, but attitude will damn sure piss these "types" of killers off. Hell a restraining order is usually not persued by the victim due to "contact" with him on a strange level, but still it's seen by the stalker as a fight. Sad but true.
Paris
01-12-2008, 07:39 PM
True and not. Depends on what "type" of person the attacker is. (i know i am into the Serial Killers which don't fall into this thread)
However the video was clearly a stalking case. These guys are usually angry at the person (and knows the victim in some form) for whatever reason, or are obsessed and it then becomes the thrill of a chase, hunt and ending.
Endings don't have to end with the victim being killed, but attitude will damn sure piss these "types" of killers off. Hell a restraining order is usually not pursued by the victim due to "contact" with him on a strange level, but still it's seen by the stalker as a fight. Sad but true.
Oh certainly. I was thinking of opportunity crimes, like date rape. I think even Ted Bundy would avoid women that he felt would be trouble to him. He would look to greener pastures if the crime was too difficult to commit.
I have a friend that was being stalked by a customer we were both acquainted with. I did not put up with his BS. He never even bothered her when I was around. It was her demeanor that he preyed upon. She is quiet and sweet and polite. I tend to be the opposite.}:D I stayed with her for two weeks before she moved out of state. He left her alone as long as I was around.
Pamela
01-12-2008, 07:46 PM
No shit Paris? Good for her, and you!! :)
Okay if i am ever stalked i want to call on you ;)
leilanicandy
01-12-2008, 07:49 PM
Oh certainly. I was thinking of opportunity crimes, like date rape. I think even Ted Bundy would avoid women that he felt would be trouble to him. He would look to greener pastures if the crime was too difficult to commit.
I have a friend that was being stalked by a customer we were both acquainted with. I did not put up with his BS. He never even bothered her when I was around. It was her demeanor that he preyed upon. She is quiet and sweet and polite. I tend to be the opposite.}:D I stayed with her for two weeks before she moved out of state. He left her alone as long as I was around.
Yes, I too notice being a bitch has lower the chances of meeting psycho . They like to pick on someone that is nice and quite. Because a lot of them, think those people wont fight back and that person will give into thier way!
Paris
01-12-2008, 07:51 PM
No shit Paris? Good for her, and you!! :)
Okay if i am ever stalked i want to call on you ;)
I tend to be crazy, like angry-mother-bear kind of crazy, if my friends or family are threatened. :bear:
Pamela
01-12-2008, 07:58 PM
And that Paris is a very good thing! One thing i learned, if you are a crazy acting woman people back off! You are not a good target, period. Sickos don't know how to respond to one who is crazier then they are...lol.
I love it. I will have to adopt that attitude when i am out or threatened. ;)
Ooops but i am a crazy bitch many say. Hope i'm safe. :)
madmaxine
01-12-2008, 08:23 PM
I am a huge fan of John Douglas and here is the blurb from his site about a book pertaining to the stalker-type assailant:
Obsession
The FBI's Legendary Profiler Probes the Psyches of Killers, Rapists, and Stalkers and Their Victims and Tells How to Fight Back
by John Douglas and Mark Olshaker
With his trademark approach, which offers insights into the minds of criminals and their prey, Douglas this time focuses on sexual predators and their victims. Among others, he uses as horrifying examples the cases of Ronnie Shelton, the serial rapist who terrorized Cleveland, and New York's infamous Preppie Murder. Douglas’s commitment to and compassion for the victims of such crimes is evident throughout, as he teaches us how common these crimes are, why we should never blame the victim, and how we might protect ourselves from danger.
His site address is:
I am grateful to the point of tears for his wisdom because I've had people in my life tell me "you asked for it"....It proves that ultimately YOU have the responsibility for your safety.
I can accept that I am more aware of sexual predators from working in the sex industry. So....WHAT do you tell women who do everything "right" and STILL get assaulted?
Flick6
01-13-2008, 02:24 AM
It's kind of a moot point for me because its very difficult to legally own gun in australia compared to the states. But I have a psycho ex who has threatened to kill me and take my daughter away from me, and has beaten the crap out of me strangled me til I was unconscious... I have been offered a gun to protect myself and I said NO THANKS. I have other ways of dealing with this shit than having a gun. I moved, I went undercover and I intimidated the fuck out of him legally and in any other way I could until he disappeared from my life. I know my situation is different from the girl in the recording,but did she even need to be staying in that place alone if she had previous problems with him?
I dont know, for me it is not worth it to have a gun in my home. That doesn't make me a victim.
That's not to say I wouldn't happily bury a giant knife in the back of someone who was trying to hurt one of my babies, but I found it better for me to make myself strong physically, learn martial arts and the skill of CONFIDENCE as described by others... oh by the way I didnt actually listen to the recording because I reckon it'll give me a panic attack, just making my comments based on what others have said so excuse me if it doesnt make real sense.
I am not a fan of guns. I know how to use them I grew up on a farm shooting bunnies, maybe thats why I dont like them. Just my bit.
So....WHAT do you tell women who do everything "right" and STILL get assaulted?
Ergo, the women in the 911 call.
Word!
When all else is equal, a woman who puts up any kind of fight is less likely to fall victim to a male attacker. Most women who end up victims were too polite to get in the potential attacker's face when she first felt threatened. That gives the attacker more confidence to pursue his victim.
Ladies, carrying a big attitude will protect you more than a weapon will. Victimizers want easy targets. Don't be an easy target.
As you may recall, I said exactly that in another thread, used my own mother as an example of a women who had done exactly that. And was attacked by various members as some how claiming that I was insinuating women who didn’t fight off an attacker some how had “deserved it” or something to that effect. My mother, all 5’ nothing and 105lbs of her, put the attempted rapist in the hospital. She had major attitude.
A clear “don’t mess with me attitude” is great, and can discouraged many stalker, etc types (as they are looking for a victim, not a fight), but there is also a small % who are not backed off by that, but further encouraged (“how dare she resist me, I will show her!”) and having a means of self defense is essential in that case.
Thus, attitude is good, a means of backing up that attitude if required, , that much better.
Looks like many people here have already experienced the “government sponsored dial a prayer” known as 911. This one really grabbed my attention. It was by the grace of God, Shiva, or shear luck this nut was not violent, but damn….
Couple say S.F. cops ignored their calls about New Year's Eve intruder
Phillip Matier,Andrew Ross
The new year kicked off memorably for Donald Burnette and his wife, Deborah Martin, when they were awakened by the sound of someone kicking in the back door of their third-story apartment in San Francisco's Upper Haight about 1 a.m. Jan. 1.
Standing in the kitchen of the Stanyan Street flat was a vision out of a sci-fi comic book: a guy in his early 20s whose body, boots and gloves were studded with spikes, some more than an inch long.
Cont:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article/article?f=/c/a/2008/01/13/BA4MUE050.DTL
VegasPrincess
01-13-2008, 12:13 PM
What happens if you shoot his knees out instead of killing him? Same, self-defense, no charge?
People who say stuff like this, I'm sorry to say, should either adjust their thinking or not have a gun. Even police, who go shooting a hellofalot more than the average person, miss their targets more than 60 % of the time (per bullet, I'm not saying the whole clip).
If somebody is attacking you, you have to shoot them period. They're a moving target, they're coming at you. That's way harder to hit than a target at the range. Generally you're aiming to hit somebody in the general chest area because that's the widest target. You're not going to have time, as some big guy is rushing at you, to try to aim at their knees which are moving back and forth. I'm not saying drop your whole clip in their chest and go reload....but really, it only takes the average woman 15 seconds to unload a clip...that's not a lot of time, and if somebody is trying to kill you, I can garuntee you you're going to drop that whole round real quick....
Also, people who think "oh if somebody sees I have a gone, they'll go away." Umm, no they won't. They'll wrestle you for it and shoot you.
End NRA rant. But really, it's true.
Also, people who think "oh if somebody sees I have a gone, they'll go away." Umm, no they won't.
Actually, most of the time they will. Approx 90% of the time, simply showing the gun will end the confontation (see below).The problem is, no one should count on that happening. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
They'll wrestle you for it and shoot you.
Statistically rare actually, and data shows a woman is FAR better off resisting with a gun (see my other posts in this thread) than not in the vast majority of cases.
WOMEN, 911 AND GUNS
American women are often taught to rely on emergency 911 police
responses in the event of physical aggression. Unfortunately, more
than 95 percent of 911 calls are not dispatched to police in time to
stop a crime or arrest a suspect.
This sad statistic is unlikely to improve significantly in the near
future because almost every state has ruled that police have no legal
obligation to protect citizens from crime.
The slowness of 911 emergency response -- and the ineffectiveness of
restraining orders issued by today's courts -- suggests that
self-defense may be a better option, according to attorneys Richard
Stevens, Hugo Teufel and Matthew Biscan.
"A woman with a firearm...can credibly threaten and deter an attacker
of any size, shape, or strength," they write in THE WOMEN'S
QUARTERLY. "Even though weaker and unskilled in the use of firearms,
she can sometimes protect herself with a sidearm without firing a
shot. In more than 92 percent of defensive gun uses, the defender
succeeds by firing only a warning shot or never firing the gun at
all." (The article is excerpted from their chapter in the Independent
Institute book LIBERTY FOR WOMEN: Freedom and Feminism in the
Twenty-first Century, edited by Wendy McElroy.)
The above may help explain why, in recent years, women have
reportedly purchased firearms and enrolled in gun-safety classes in
record numbers.
Stevens, Teufel and Biscan conclude: "Individual women in peril quite
frequently fare better when they develop skill and confidence in the
carrying and using of defensive firearms. Victim disarmament ("gun
control") laws that discourage women from developing the skills and
using defensive firearms actually heighten the risks of criminal
violence that women face. Such laws place women at a disadvantage
against violent men and run against the feminist goal of equal
treatment under the law."
See "Disarming Women," by Richard W. Stevens, Hugo Teufel III, and
Matthew Y. Biscan (THE WOMEN'S QUARTERLY, Summer 2002)
http://www.independent.org/tii/lighthouse/LHLink4-30-3.html
A longer version of this article appears in LIBERTY FOR WOMEN:
Freedom and Feminism in the Twenty-first Century, edited by Wendy
McElroy. See http://independent.org/tii/content/briefs/b_lfw.html
************************************************** *********************
Professor Joseph Olson Hamline University School of Law
VegasPrincess
01-13-2008, 12:56 PM
Actually, most of the time they will. Approx 90% of the time, simply showing the gun will end the confontation (see below).The problem is, no one should count on that happening. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
Statistically rare actually, and data shows a woman is FAR better off resisting with a gun (see my other posts in this thread) than not in the vast majority of cases.
So you're telling me if I'm going to shoot you, you're not going to try to take my gun and shoot me first?
Actually, the statistics I quoted are extremely accurate, at least for Nevada. And anyone who has taken any kind of gun safety class or has there C&C like I do is taught don't pull out your gun unless you intend to shoot it. Period.
You're usually pretty dead on but I'm pretty well versed on this topic and you're dead off. Just because you found an article to back you up doesn't change that.
*I still <3 u tho*
Deogol
01-13-2008, 01:24 PM
It's kind of a moot point for me because its very difficult to legally own gun in australia compared to the states. But I have a psycho ex who has threatened to kill me and take my daughter away from me, and has beaten the crap out of me strangled me til I was unconscious... I have been offered a gun to protect myself and I said NO THANKS. I have other ways of dealing with this shit than having a gun. I moved, I went undercover and I intimidated the fuck out of him legally and in any other way I could until he disappeared from my life. I know my situation is different from the girl in the recording,but did she even need to be staying in that place alone if she had previous problems with him?
I dont know, for me it is not worth it to have a gun in my home. That doesn't make me a victim.
That's not to say I wouldn't happily bury a giant knife in the back of someone who was trying to hurt one of my babies, but I found it better for me to make myself strong physically, learn martial arts and the skill of CONFIDENCE as described by others... oh by the way I didnt actually listen to the recording because I reckon it'll give me a panic attack, just making my comments based on what others have said so excuse me if it doesnt make real sense.
I am not a fan of guns. I know how to use them I grew up on a farm shooting bunnies, maybe thats why I dont like them. Just my bit.
I am not glad to see the government and various lawyers put laws into effect requiring higher taxes and fee's for you to beg them for self-protection as you had to change your life to deal with this problem.
Even most loonies know the stakes at the poker table when a gun is involved.
Deogol
01-13-2008, 01:27 PM
So you're telling me if I'm going to shoot you, you're not going to try to take my gun and shoot me first?
One of the nice things about paint ball is the lessons about how fast one can end up dead in a real gun fight. One can always tell the military veterans from the XBox players real fast.
If you say "The closer to the barrel of this gun you come the easier it is for me to shoot you" -- you are offering an out and most people are going to take it.
So you're telling me if I'm going to shoot you, you're not going to try to take my gun and shoot me first?
That is exactly I am telling you. How many guns have you wrestled out of people's hands vs. watching it happen on TV? The normal response for most people when they have a gun pointed at them is to freeze, back away, run, put their hand sup, etc, it is not to charge the person with the gun period. It takes a fraction of a second or less to pull a trigger, and most people know that.
Two, again, you have to understand the criminal mind, criminals are looking for victims, not a fight, and when confronted with a person who clearly plans to resist via a gun, will disengage most of the time, which is exactly what the data finds.
Now, in those rare cases where you have a nut who simply does not care, just like our now dead friend on the 911 tape, you will be happy of course you are armed even though he didn’t respond to the gun and stop, she still took him out.
Thus, why the numbers showing the vast majority of the time, no shot is fired, nor needs to be. In most cases, it does not progress from potentially life threatening to immediately life threatening and you have to shoot the person.
Actually, the statistics I quoted are extremely accurate, at least for Nevada.
You offered no statistics relevant to the issue here nor did you provide a source for the info you did provide.
And anyone who has taken any kind of gun safety class or has there C&C like I do is taught don't pull out your gun unless you intend to shoot it. Period.
Anyone who gives you that advice should not be teaching any courses "period." And PS, I have taken such a course, in Nevada, and thankfully (as I would have known right there and then, the instructor was nor qualified to teach such a course) and no such advice was given.
You're usually pretty dead on but I'm pretty well versed on this topic and you're dead off.
I am not pretty well versed in this topic, I am very well versed, having spoken to the primary researchers in the field, having read much of the primary data, having worked with various high level shooters on LEO who have been in gun fights, having taken various beginner - more advanced courses relating to legal and tactical issues regarding handgun, etc, etc, etc, and I am not remotely "dead off."
Just because you found an article to back you up doesn't change that.
Actually it does. Findings vary, but always come to the same conclusion on that matter: the vast majority of the time, no shot is fired and merely showing the weapon with a clear intent you don’t plan to be a victim end the confrontation. The advice some may give of "don’t pull a gun unless you plan to use it" is not given by those who actually know what they are talking about. The proper advice, both legally and statically, is if you feel your life is in imminent danger, be ready, willing, and able to use deadly force to stop it, but each situation is different and simply yanking a gun out and firing is a fast way to end up in jail.
Paris
01-13-2008, 04:50 PM
Actually, the statistics I quoted are extremely accurate, at least for Nevada.
FYI, statistics are subjective to personal bias of the statistician to produce a desired statistical outcome.
Although they are helpful in many instances, they can also be tweeked to reflect ones opinion, not necessarily solid fact.
This is how Michael Moore makes a living, turning facts around to match his desired outcome.
FYI, statistics are subjective to personal bias of the statistician to produce a desired statistical outcome.
Although they are helpful in many instances, they can also be tweeked to reflect ones opinion, not necessarily solid fact.
This is how Michael Moore makes a living, turning facts around to match his desired outcome.
Oh man, talk about opening up a big can O worms! :P
jannisary
01-13-2008, 05:02 PM
FYI, statistics are subjective to personal bias of the statistician to produce a desired statistical outcome.
Although they are helpful in many instances, they can also be tweeked to reflect ones opinion, not necessarily solid fact.
This is how Michael Moore makes a living, turning facts around to match his desired outcome.
:heartbeat
Paris, that was beautiful....just beautiful.
TheSexKitten
01-13-2008, 07:39 PM
Try telling that to Eric Stoner! :P
VegasPrincess
01-13-2008, 09:35 PM
[QUOTE=Will;1361556]That is exactly I am telling you. How many guns have you wrestled out of people's hands vs. watching it happen on TV? The normal response for most people when they have a gun pointed at them is to freeze, back away, run, put their hand sup, etc, it is not to charge the person with the gun period. It takes a fraction of a second or less to pull a trigger, and most people know that.
QUOTE]
I don't know why we're arguing then lol. I am just stating the case that I know many women think that they can just grab their boyfriend's gun and wave it at an intruder and all will be well. Which is not the case.
What you're assuming is that the assailant is unarmed. If he's not and you point a gun at him he is prolly gonna run. If he is he is probably going to grab his gun and shoot you.
I phrased myself poorly also. I should have said you should never pull out your gun unless the situation is so dire it would call for you to shoot someone.
Nuff said.
Flick6
01-13-2008, 10:17 PM
I am not glad to see the government and various lawyers put laws into effect requiring higher taxes and fee's for you to beg them for self-protection as you had to change your life to deal with this problem.
Even most loonies know the stakes at the poker table when a gun is involved.
I think you might have misunderstood, I actually prefer the methods I took to protect myself rather than the option of having a gun in my home, or if it came to it shooting someone.
I would rather be in hiding for my entire life than take someone elses life. I must admit there was a time when I swore if you handed me a gun I would shoot him dead, but I am glad I never got that option, I would have to live with that for the rest of my life you know?
BalletBaby
01-13-2008, 10:28 PM
Holy shit. I'm glad that woman is alive. And I want to do this --->:banghead: every time the family of a stalker/murderer/rapist/whathaveyou is all, "Ohhhhh, but he was such a sweet man!" Uh, then why are there six police reports on him dipwit?!?
I would rather be in hiding for my entire life than take someone elses life.
And I support your right to take that option. I hope you support the rights of others who chose not to hide for the rest of their life and support their right to self defense.
Crow2
01-14-2008, 12:19 PM
Will:
Thank you. This is a wonderful example of how most women are treated. Believe me, I know from first hand experience.
And they call individuals that believe in guns, gun safety and gun ownership crazy.
When you are in fear for your life, there's only one though in your head. Survival - not hiding.
If someone is breaking into my house with the intent to do evil to me, I feel sorry for them. I damn sure wont be hiding. They will find a butt-ass naked woman pointing a Kimber at their heart.
Will:
Thank you. This is a wonderful example of how most women are treated. Believe me, I know from first hand experience.
I'm sorry to hear that. :-\
And they call individuals that believe in guns, gun safety and gun ownership crazy.
As you know, many people feel a woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet.
When you are in fear for your life, there's only one though in your head. Survival - not hiding.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Col. Jeff Cooper
If someone is breaking into my house with the intent to do evil to me, I feel sorry for them. I damn sure wont be hiding. They will find a butt-ass naked woman pointing a Kimber at their heart.
"Criminals should consider the possibility of being shot an occupational hazard." -Charleston, SC Chief of Police Ruben Greenberg (June 1996, IIRC)
I'm all about the quotes today! :P
Flick6
01-14-2008, 01:53 PM
And I support your right to take that option. I hope you support the rights of others who chose not to hide for the rest of their life and support their right to self defense.
I think it is fine to kill someone if they are going to kill you first. But mostly I am glad I live in a country where there is less chance of me getting killed since not every dick and his dog owns a gun. I dont have statics on hand but the amount of death in australia compared to the states says a lot. Like maybe once a year we have a fatality by shooting, and the whole country stops on horror. I hope it never becomes so common here.
And just to clarify, I am not hiding for the rest of my life. I disappeared until I could gather a position of strength. My ex doesnt own a gun (would probably shoot himself in the bum if he did anyway) so the skills I have learned since (kickboxing and fighting) make me quite eager to run into him again one day and at least give it a go at kicking his ass, may not work but I am not scared of seeing him again. My point was that I would rather be in hiding than take a life. not that I still am :) although I am certainly not going out of my way to track him down or advertise where I live, I would rather have the hapy life that I have now than be involved in that sort of shit.
If I had owned a gun and shot him I I am sure he would have a bigger impact on my life now than he currently does. Have you ever killed someone or spoken to someone who has? Post Traumatic Stress is nothing to sneeze at it can destroy lives. I'm not saying people shouldnt have the right (but I'm glad they dont where I live) I'm just saying it is probably not the easy option you are painting it to be.
Mia M
01-14-2008, 02:16 PM
And I support your right to take that option. I hope you support the rights of others who chose not to hide for the rest of their life and support their right to self defense.
Here's thing that really pisses me off about the majority of gun propaganda, whether it be pro or anti gun... why does it always seem to be all or nothing? It's like you either have to be a gun toting, NRA card carrying, rifle lovin' American or the complete opposite. What about those of us who choose not to own guns but have no intention of infringing on the rights of others to own one?
I'm not saying people shouldnt have the right (but I'm glad they dont where I live) I'm just saying it is probably not the easy option you are painting it to be.
Your post opens up a bunch of assumptions and myths regarding guns, as well as others, that would take a extensive response to adequately reply to, and I doubt you want to hear so I wont write it.
For example, there is no correlation at all to gun ownership rates and murder when all like countries are examined, in both the UK and Australia, banning handgun ownership, crime rates went up, not down. In states in the US where "shall issue" laws were passed that allowed law abiding citizens easier access to have a gun, crime went down, not up , countries with the strictest gun control laws, have higher violent crime rates, etc, etc.
I can supply the sources for all of those statements if interested. The point being, without turning my response to you into a long drawn out lecture on guns, what you think you know about them and what is actually shown to be reality, is two different things. Some of it is counterintuitive at first, but makes perfect sense at second glance when armed (no pun intended!) with the relevant facts, data, and historical context.
So, I am glad you are safe, I am happy you are happy to live in a country that makes it difficult for law abiding citizens to own firearms, and I never indicated in any way anything about it was easy or desirable, and owning a gun is a big responsibility, NEVER to be taken lightly, and in my view, the right to self defense is a Basic Human Right no government should be able to grant or take away. As Gandhi said:
"I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully." - Mahatma Gandhi (Young India, 11-10-1928, p342)
Here's thing that really pisses me off about the majority of gun propaganda, whether it be pro or anti gun... why does it always seem to be all or nothing? It's like you either have to be a gun toting, NRA card carrying, rifle lovin' American or the complete opposite. What about those of us who choose not to own guns but have no intention of infringing on the rights of others to own one?
As you know, it’s a very polarized issue, but where is the balance with any of the polarized issues? The extremists on both sides yell over the moderates, which usually make up the majority of people on an issue. I will tell you this however, you will find the pro gun camp is going to be much more accepting of your position than the anti gun camp. They don’t give a damn if you own a gun, they only want you to support their Constitutional Rights to own one, just as they will support your rights other rights. The extremes on both sides have a certain amount of intellectual dishonesty (as one would expect) but I can tell you the anti gun camp is far and away the more intellectually dishonest of the two polar camps.
Mia M
01-14-2008, 02:58 PM
^^^ however accepting either camp decides to be doesn't forgive anyone making insensitive statements like, "being prey is choice"... Judging from your other posts, I do not beleive (or at least I hope) this is not a theory you agree with. I know you're just trying to bring awareness of a particular avenue in which one may choose to defend his or herself... but goddamit, that just fucking statement just made me so angry! I know I need to get over it but nothing frosts my cookies like victim blaming.
^^^ however accepting either camp decides to be doesn't forgive anyone making insensitive statements like, "being prey is choice"... Judging from your other posts, I do not beleive (or at least I hope) this is not a theory you agree with. I know you're just trying to bring awareness of a particular avenue in which one may choose to defend his or herself... but goddamit, that just fucking statement just made me so angry! I know I need to get over it but nothing frosts my cookies like victim blaming.
You and I know the intent of the message is to help women avoid BEING victims vs. blaming them for being the victim of a violent crime. It’s all about trying to make people, in this example women, aware that indeed they do have a choice and a means to prevent being a victim. It’s about prevention, not blame. There is no intent of blaming victims, but that’s how you are interpreting it.
That’s unfortunate because instead of it helping to make a useful point, it’s making you angry, which means it’s not very effective for you. I agree that it’s a poor choice of words perhaps, but I think you know what the real intent was.
OK, so what would you find more effective and less open to misunderstanding that should go along with that 911 call? Input from you and or any ladies here who also interpreted the “"being prey is choice" as intending to blame the victim vs. the intent is welcome and I will pass along your comments.
The other messages from that vid, such as:
“waiting for help may take the rest of your life”
“What should a mugger get for attacking this woman?”
“Stay alive until help arrives”
“A no emphasized”
“Two ways to shield yourself from an attack”
Etc.
And all the rest were clearly designed to empower women, show them self defense is their right and a real option, relying on 911 can get you killed, etc. Again, not the best choice of words there bout you are also taking it out of context if you think there was any blaming of the victem intended there.
Finally, here is the recording without the pics for those who find the pics offensive:
http://www.nbc5.com/download/2008/0110/15020797.mp3
Pamela
01-14-2008, 04:28 PM
I just want to add that we are all victims in this world. Your home could be tighter than Fort Knox.
How many times a day do i open my door without a gun in hand... all the time! I don't carry anymore. I'm a target. IF a person wants you bad enough that person will carry out the attack, period.
Guns like knives, like dogs, like learning self defense all help. But will not insure we will survive another day.
Learning our surroundings, odd people etc. have probably saved more lives than guns...Street smarts! Goes a long way. ;)
madmaxine
01-14-2008, 04:38 PM
Guns like knives, like dogs, like learning self defense all help. But will not insure we will survive another day.
Learning our surroundings, odd people etc. have probably saved more lives than guns...Street smarts! Goes a long way. ;)
Pamela reminded me of something..I knew a woman who purchased a $1,000 trained German Shepherd dog for protection because she was divorcing a cop & he became very violent towards her. She felt like she couldn't turn to the local cops for protection & she had several kids in her house so she did not wish to own a gun. This is an example of a woman using other options than a firearm to protect herself.
& Yes, street smarts will take you farther in life than you realize.
I just want to add that we are all victims in this world. Your home could be tighter than Fort Knox.
How many times a day do i open my door without a gun in hand... all the time! I don't carry anymore. I'm a target. IF a person wants you bad enough that person will carry out the attack, period.
Guns like knives, like dogs, like learning self defense all help. But will not insure we will survive another day.
Learning our surroundings, odd people etc. have probably saved more lives than guns...Street smarts! Goes a long way. ;)
A gun should never be your first line of defense, only your last. Being aware of your surroundings, good locks correctly installed, alarm and or dog, etc., etc, all come before a gun as a means of protection. This should go without saying, but I guess we are saying it! ;)
Mia M
01-14-2008, 05:57 PM
OK, so what would you find more effective and less open to misunderstanding that should go along with that 911 call? Input from you and or any ladies here who also interpreted the “"being prey is choice" as intending to blame the victim vs. the intent is welcome and I will pass along your comments.
Well, I think they made thier point perfectly clear without having to end it with any "provacative" statement. Nothing really would be better than the current slogan. I think something simple along the lines of, "you have the right to defend yourself" would've made an impact without crossing the line into offensive.
Really, it's beyond a poor choice of words... regardless of intent, if you're trying to gain support on a cause you may want to be a little more diplomatic. What exactly does the creator of this peice think a gun neutral or anti gun person would gather from images of fear (I really did not view the images or slogans as empowering, especially "waiting for help may take the rest of your life" and the split screen of the woman looking terrified and shielding herself vs. assertive with a gun) during an intese and real life or death recording, then ending with that hideous statement? Like I said, I could ingnore all the slogans and images, but tieing up the whole thing in that trite little bow changed the entire tone and meaning of it.