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Deogol
01-14-2008, 08:22 PM
Nice story on the news tonight about the police taking 2 hours to get to a 911 call. Repeatedly.

As well as some kids killed by their loony mother simply because HHS didn't bother to check it out.

As the country and it's local governments become more and more bankrupt and without money, one should consider they are letting out more than just Paris Hilton from jail.

They also won't be hiring.

Some parts of this country already are mad maxx at night.

Will
01-14-2008, 08:25 PM
Well, I think they made thier point perfectly clear without having to end it with any "provacative" statement. Nothing really would be better than the current slogan. I think something simple along the lines of, "you have the right to defend yourself" would've made an impact without crossing the line into offensive.

Really, it's beyond a poor choice of words... regardless of intent, if you're trying to gain support on a cause you may want to be a little more diplomatic. What exactly does the creator of this peice think a gun neutral or anti gun person would gather from images of fear (I really did not view the images or slogans as empowering, especially "waiting for help may take the rest of your life" and the split screen of the woman looking terrified and shielding herself vs. assertive with a gun) during an intese and real life or death recording, then ending with that hideous statement? Like I said, I could ingnore all the slogans and images, but tieing up the whole thing in that trite little bow changed the entire tone and meaning of it.

Point taken. I will pass that along to him with comments.

Mia M
01-14-2008, 08:33 PM
Well, the good news is it didn't make me want to support gun control...

Not that it matters, but I still enjoy your posts, Will.

AlexxaHex
01-14-2008, 08:55 PM
My dad taught me to respect guns, and how to use them safely. I will be doing the same with my daughter. Thanks for posting this, Will. While I also think the last statement on the video was a bit insulting to victims, I do think that phone call was something we all needed to hear. You can never be too careful.

Jay Zeno
01-14-2008, 10:29 PM
Several points.

1. Belongs in Member Boards from about page 2 on.

2. Having a gun helps your ability to defend yourself. Planting claymores around your house helps your ability to defend yourself. Neither one necessarily means that proliferation is the best policy.

3. The citizenry has overwhelmed the 911 system to be ineffective. Yes, when operators are dolts, they should not be used. But for instance, burglary alarms that go to the police, the number of false alarms is... well, I forget the statistic, but staggeringly high, like 97 to 99%. Add that to the high number of 911 calls that aren't actually emergencies. There is some response fatigue that sets in. (And I'm NOT, NOT, NOT excusing a failed police response in an obvious emergency, and don't get me started on what the police should really be doing instead of writing tickets for minor traffic offenses.)

4. See No. 1.

Flick6
01-15-2008, 12:52 AM
Your post opens up a bunch of assumptions and myths regarding guns, as well as others, that would take a extensive response to adequately reply to, and I doubt you want to hear so I wont write it.

For example, there is no correlation at all to gun ownership rates and murder when all like countries are examined, in both the UK and Australia, banning handgun ownership, crime rates went up, not down. In states in the US where "shall issue" laws were passed that allowed law abiding citizens easier access to have a gun, crime went down, not up , countries with the strictest gun control laws, have higher violent crime rates, etc, etc.

I can supply the sources for all of those statements if interested. The point being, without turning my response to you into a long drawn out lecture on guns, what you think you know about them and what is actually shown to be reality, is two different things. Some of it is counterintuitive at first, but makes perfect sense at second glance when armed (no pun intended!) with the relevant facts, data, and historical context.

So, I am glad you are safe, I am happy you are happy to live in a country that makes it difficult for law abiding citizens to own firearms, and I never indicated in any way anything about it was easy or desirable, and owning a gun is a big responsibility, NEVER to be taken lightly, and in my view, the right to self defense is a Basic Human Right no government should be able to grant or take away. As Gandhi said:


"I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully." - Mahatma Gandhi (Young India, 11-10-1928, p342)


Um I am not actually wanting to disagree with you because to a certain extent I dont. I agree people have the right to self defense.

BUT you say that the crime rates are the same even when it is illegal to own firearms??? That may be, but there is a definite difference in the amount of fatalities from gun shoot wounds. How many people were shot in the States in the past year? A hell of a lot more than were in Australia I promise you. and you cant assume that everyone shot in the states was shot in self defense, so there are a lot of innocent people being shot for no good reason. I think I'm getting off topic but I feel like you are kind of pushing this too far. If you read my post in it's entirity I havent actually disagreed with your point./ But I am not a gun lover and picking my paragraphs to pieces isnt going to help me agree with you any further. Actually making me think that maybe people that are into guns are a little bit nutty about it since you dont seem to be open to even a variation of your own opinion you know what I mean? Anyhoo happy shooting ::)


I have a newborn and no sleep for a few weeks so my brain is cactus, this may not be well written, but I hope that makes some kind of sense??

Dirty Ernie
01-15-2008, 01:12 AM
Here's a contextual look at the declining crime rate in Australia:
http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

Will
01-15-2008, 07:01 AM
Well, the good news is it didn't make me want to support gun control...

Not that it matters, but I still enjoy your posts, Will.

Thank you Mia.;)

Will
01-15-2008, 07:28 AM
Um I am not actually wanting to disagree with you because to a certain extent I dont. I agree people have the right to self defense.

Understood!;)


BUT you say that the crime rates are the same even when it is illegal to own firearms???

Not sure I am following you there, but countries with the stricest gun control laws have the highest murder rates:

From Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pages 649-694):

"Appearing in the current issue of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pages 649-694), the Kates/Mauser report entitled "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International Evidence" is a detailed look at gun ownership and how it does not relate to the incidence of murder and violence. They conclude that

"nations with very stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those which allow guns."


That may be, but there is a definite difference in the amount of fatalities from gun shoot wounds.

That's your mistake right there, focusing on the tool vs the outcome. If you are being murdered, raped, etc, you dont care if it's with knife, a bat, or a rock.

For example, The US murder rate is 55 per million, according to the FBI. Scotland Glasgow had one of the highest murder rates in Western Europe at 58.7 per million. They have strict guns laws, and a "knife culture" that seems to have no problems killing more people than we do per capita. To learn more about their "knife culture" see:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4031405.stm

Guess what, they can claim a low death rate by guns too....



How many people were shot in the States in the past year?

Too many, but the US is a violent culture.


A hell of a lot more than were in Australia I promise you. and you cant assume that everyone shot in the states was shot in self defense, so there are a lot of innocent people being shot for no good reason.

And there were a lot of people saved, and as stated, crime goes DOWN when "shall issue" laws increase the % of law abiding people able to defend themselves. That effect has been shown in every state to date, with this latest just in for example:

Michigan sees fewer gun deaths with more permits

January 6, 2008

By DAWSON BELL

FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

Six years after new rules made it much easier to get a license to carry concealed weapons, the number of Michiganders legally packing heat has increased more than six-fold.

But dire predictions about increased violence and bloodshed have largely gone unfulfilled, according to law enforcement officials and, to the extent they can be measured, crime statistics.

The incidence of violent crime in Michigan in the six years since the law went into effect has been, on average, below the rate of the previous six years. The overall incidence of death from firearms, including suicide and accidents, also has declined.

More than 155,000 Michiganders -- about one in every 65 -- are now authorized to carry loaded guns as they go about their everyday affairs, according to Michigan State Police records.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080106/NEWS06/801060602/1008


I think I'm getting off topic but I feel like you are kind of pushing this too far.

I am giving you the facts as they exist.


If you read my post in it's entirity I havent actually disagreed with your point./ But I am not a gun lover and picking my paragraphs to pieces isnt going to help me agree with you any further. Actually making me think that maybe people that are into guns are a little bit nutty about it since you dont seem to be open to even a variation of your own opinion you know what I mean? Anyhoo happy shooting ::)

I am open to debating the issue with objective info that exists to support or counter what has been said. You did not offer that, but offered your personal feelings on the issue (which I fully supported BTW) and made some comments regarding guns that were simply incorrect, and I attempted to throw some reality your way about the issue, and due to that, you are now calling a "bit nutty" and such. Thus, it seems it's you who does not like having their paradigm challenged.


I have a newborn and no sleep for a few weeks so my brain is cactus, this may not be well written, but I hope that makes some kind of sense??

I suppose....

Will
01-15-2008, 07:50 AM
Here's a contextual look at the declining crime rate in Australia:
http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

That's not contextual at all, it's attempting some shell game comments, some of which make valid points, some of which don't, none of which changes the actual facts. Most glaring, is the classic attempt to focus on the tool vs the outcome, which is a typical tactic of the intellectually dishonest. See above comments also. What matters is CRIME, not what tool used to commit it. Thus, crime stats are what matters, as murder is murder, no matter the tool. Valid points made was:

" determining the effect of changes in Australia's gun ownership laws and the government's firearm buy-back program on crime rates requires a complex long-term analysis"

If we are going to get detailed, for example you must show that trend was not already taking place one way or another before the ban. So, if rates of all violent crime has indeed gone down, and that trend took place after a gun ban, and other confounding factors/variables are accounted for, than one can safely conclude the ban on guns indeed had a positive effect on crime rates, NOT gun crime rates. For example, a downward trend in homicides was already taking place in Australia before the gun ban, and went up sharply around 2001 with a trend downward again:

http://www.aic.gov.au/stats/crime/homicide.html

Now, looking at total numbers, not gun specific numbers, which is was matters, between 1996-2005, we find

Homicide was down, Assaults up, Sexual assaults way up, Robbery up slightly, Kidnapping way up:

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/f...ded_crime.html

So, at BEST, you might conclude the banning of guns has had mixed results, or no results.

Three, Governments also have no problems faking statistics to cover their own ass regarding a failed policy or law, for example what has taken place in the UK, where the faked their numbers in an attempt to pretend their failed gun laws were working:

"THE government was accused yesterday of covering up the full extent of the gun crime epidemic sweeping Britain, after official figures showed that gun-related killings and injuries had risen more than fourfold since 1998."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2328368.ece

Jay Zeno
01-15-2008, 09:42 AM
Murder rates by nation:

If this site is correct, Scotland drives up the average for Wales/England/Scotland. Wales and England have strict gun control, too, and even with the anomalous Scotland, the UK has a third of the US murder rate.

Will
01-15-2008, 10:01 AM
Murder rates by nation: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

If this site is correct, Scotland drives up the average for Wales/England/Scotland. Wales and England have strict gun control, too, and even with the anomalous Scotland, the UK has a third of the US murder rate.


Murder rates by nation: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

If this site is correct, Scotland drives up the average for Wales/England/Scotland.

And we have areas of the country that are numbers drivers to, that’s not the issue. The issue is, they have strict gun laws, have low gun crime, and no problems killing each other in high numbers, which they do almost exclusively with knives...


Wales and England have strict gun control, too, and even with the anomalous Scotland, the UK has a third of the US murder rate.

I believe I covered those issue rather well. Links I posted to UK crime rates, changes in crime rates after handgun ban, etc, etc put the above well into perspective, but in case more in needed:

The following article from the London (England) 'Times' is well worth reading. The original can be found at:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle2409817.ece

British attitudes are supercilious and misguided

Richard Munday

Despite the recent spate of shootings on our streets, we pride ourselves on our strict gun laws. Every time an American gunman goes on a killing spree, we shake our heads in righteous disbelief at our poor benighted colonial cousins. Why is it, even after the Virginia Tech massacre, that Americans still resist calls for more gun controls?

The short answer is that “gun controls” do not work: they are indeed generally perverse in their effects. Virginia Tech, where 32 students were shot in April, had a strict gun ban policy and only last year successfully resisted a legal challenge that would have allowed the carrying of licensed defensive weapons on campus. It is with a measure of bitter irony that we recall Thomas Jefferson, founder of the University of Virginia, recording the words of Cesare Beccaria: “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”

One might contrast the Virginia Tech massacre with the assault on Virginia’s Appalachian Law School in 2002, where three lives were lost before a student fetched a pistol from his car and apprehended the gunman.

Virginia Tech reinforced the lesson that gun controls are obeyed only by the law-abiding. New York has “banned” pistols since 1911, and its fellow murder capitals, Washington DC and Chicago, have similar bans. One can draw a map of the US, showing the inverse relationship of the strictness of its gun laws, and levels of violence: all the way down to Vermont, with no gun laws at all, and the lowest level of armed violence (one thirteenth that of Britain).


How worried should we be about gun crime?
Serious gun crime is concentrated in particular parts of England; internationally, the country has a low death rate from guns

America’s disenchantment with “gun control” is based on experience: whereas in the 1960s and 1970s armed crime rose in the face of more restrictive gun laws (in much of the US, it was illegal to possess a firearm away from the home or workplace), over the past 20 years all violent crime has dropped dramatically, in lockstep with the spread of laws allowing the carrying of concealed weapons by law-abiding citizens. Florida set this trend in 1987, and within five years the states that had followed its example showed an 8 per cent reduction in murders, 7 per cent reduction in aggravated assaults, and 5 per cent reduction in rapes. Today 40 states have such laws, and by 2004 the US Bureau of Justice reported that “firearms-related crime has plummeted”.

In Britain, however, the image of violent America remains unassailably entrenched. Never mind the findings of the International Crime Victims Survey (published by the Home Office in 2003), indicating that we now suffer three times the level of violent crime committed in the United States; never mind the doubling of handgun crime in Britain over the past decade, since we banned pistols outright and confiscated all the legal ones.

We are so self-congratulatory about our officially disarmed society, and so dismissive of colonial rednecks, that we have forgotten that within living memory British citizens could buy any gun – rifle, pistol, or machinegun – without any licence. When Dr Watson walked the streets of London with a revolver in his pocket, he was a perfectly ordinary Victorian or Edwardian. Charlotte Brontë recalled that her curate father fastened his watch and pocketed his pistol every morning when he got dressed; Beatrix Potter remarked on a Yorkshire country hotel where only one of the eight or nine guests was not carrying a revolver; in 1909, policemen in Tottenham borrowed at least four pistols from passers-by (and were joined by other armed citizens) when they set off in pursuit of two anarchists unwise enough to attempt an armed robbery. We now are shocked that so many ordinary people should have been carrying guns in the street; the Edwardians were shocked rather by the idea of an armed robbery.

If armed crime in London in the years before the First World War amounted to less than 2 per cent of that we suffer today, it was not simply because society then was more stable. Edwardian Britain was rocked by a series of massive strikes in which lives were lost and troops deployed, and suffragette incendiaries, anarchist bombers, Fenians, and the spectre of a revolutionary general strike made Britain then arguably a much more turbulent place than it is today. In that unstable society the impact of the widespread carrying of arms was not inflammatory, it was deterrent of violence.

As late as 1951, self-defence was the justification of three quarters of all applications for pistol licences. And in the years 1946-51 armed robbery, the most significant measure of gun crime, ran at less than two dozen incidents a year in London; today, in our disarmed society, we suffer as many every week.

Gun controls disarm only the law-abiding, and leave predators with a freer hand. Nearly two and a half million people now fall victim to crimes of violence in Britain every year, more than four every minute: crimes that may devastate lives. It is perhaps a privilege of those who have never had to confront violence to disparage the power to resist.

Richard Munday is editor and co-author of Guns & Violence: the Debate Before Lord Cullen

Dottie Rebel
01-15-2008, 02:48 PM
I've never understood why people are scared of guns. Don't be afraid of guns...be afraid of not having one when you need it! A gun is a powerful tool, but a lot fo women act like it's going to go off all by itself in their nightstand drawer.

Typically I think firing a "warning" shot through the ceiling is a good first step in a house break in because I think it would deter most burlgars. House is not an easy target, move on. Even if you have a gun for only this purpose, you make yourself a troublesome victim--not something the average burglar wants to deal with.

However, this crazy piece of shit might not have been swayed by a shot. She did such a great job.

I'd love to see every household armed. Of course, I'd also love to see those households keep the government in check as an armed citizenry was originally intended to do by the 2nd amendment, but that's another story...

Will
01-15-2008, 03:01 PM
I've never understood why people are scared of guns. Don't be afraid of guns...be afraid of not having one when you need it! A gun is a powerful tool, but a lot fo women act like it's going to go off all by itself in their nightstand drawer.

Typically I think firing a "warning" shot through the ceiling is a good first step in a house break in because I think it would deter most burlgars. House is not an easy target, move on. Even if you have a gun for only this purpose, you make yourself a troublesome victim--not something the average burglar wants to deal with.

However, this crazy piece of shit might not have been swayed by a shot. She did such a great job.

I'd love to see every household armed. Of course, I'd also love to see those households keep the government in check as an armed citizenry was originally intended to do by the 2nd amendment, but that's another story...

Marry me... }:D

Jay Zeno
01-15-2008, 03:15 PM
Your link doesn't work, and I suspect it may be copyrighted. If so, that would be a violation of forum rules.

Editorials aren't evidence, at least to me, and after hearing a few thousand tiresome ones on both sides of this issue, they're not persuasive, either.

Dottie Rebel
01-15-2008, 03:17 PM
Nah. Let's just make crazy militia love and leave our tin foil hats on. ;)

Will
01-15-2008, 03:31 PM
Your link doesn't work, and I suspect it may be copyrighted. If so, that would be a violation of forum rules.

Will put a few paragraphs with link in the future. Correct link:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article2409817.ece




Editorials aren't evidence, at least to me, and after hearing a few thousand tiresome ones on both sides of this issue, they're not persuasive, either.

I have given citations and direct sources in this thread, and can get them for any of stats mentioned in the editorials as needed, assuming it's a data related question. Most people do not respond well to hard data or journal refs, but I also do not use Editorials from people I know have not done their research that I have confirmed and or has been confirmed by other researchers of note.

For example the the figures relating to International Crime Victims Survey relating to rates of violent crime committed in the UK after banning handguns compared to the US are easy enough to find by reading that report if interested.

Finally, If you enjoy journal articles, I referenced a recent review called "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International Evidence" which was pubished in lHarvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pages 649-694). The full paper can be downloaded free here:

http://law.bepress.com/expresso/eps/1413/

Will
01-15-2008, 03:35 PM
Nah. Let's just make crazy militia love and leave our tin foil hats on. ;)

Sounds like a plan }:D

And there is a good reason to leave the foil hats;D

On the Effectiveness of Aluminium Foil Helmets:

An Empirical Study
Ali Rahimi1, Ben Recht 2, Jason Taylor 2, Noah Vawter 2
17 Feb 2005

1: Electrical Engineering and Computer Science department, MIT.
2: Media Laboratory, MIT.

Abstract

Among a fringe community of paranoids, aluminum helmets serve as the
protective measure of choice against invasive radio signals. We
investigate the efficacy of three aluminum helmet designs on a sample
group of four individuals. Using a $250,000 network analyser, we find
that although on average all helmets attenuate invasive radio
frequencies in either directions (either emanating from an outside
source, or emanating from the cranium of the subject), certain
frequencies are in fact greatly amplified. These amplified frequencies
coincide with radio bands reserved for government use according to the Federal Communication Commission (FCC). Statistical evidence suggests the use of helmets may in fact enhance the government's invasive abilities. We speculate that the government may in fact have started the helmet craze for this reason.

Cont: http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/

Click on the link, the pic is funny as hell. These guys Obviously have a great sense if humor at this MIT department. :P

Jay Zeno
01-15-2008, 03:43 PM
I have given citations and direct sources in this thread, and can get them for any of stats mentioned in the editorials as needed, assuming it's a data related question. That's why I linked the stats on all murder rates after the anomalous one of Scotland was focused on.

Will
01-15-2008, 03:47 PM
That's why I linked the stats on all murder rates after the anomalous one of Scotland was focused on.

Not sure I follow, but full journal article link for the review found in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy above if interested.

Will
01-27-2008, 03:08 PM
Well, the good news is it didn't make me want to support gun control...

Not that it matters, but I still enjoy your posts, Will.

See what you think of this:


Forgive me, for I have sinned.

An About Face After Being Saved by a Gun Owner

Sent in by Brian Clifford, from his Dear Friend

I am one of those people who you loathe. One of those invisible people who come into your living room without asking your permission. One of those people who follow you while you shop, and make it harder for you to make legal purchases. One of those people who try and tell you how to raise your children, as if you don't know how. One of those who gives ratings to stations that promote our demise as a free nation. I am your enemy. Or at least I was.

I followed it all, all of the propaganda, all of the hoopla. Believed it too. Believed that leaving my house was more dangerous than being in a war. At any given moment one of you evil gun owners would open fire on me. I saw the NRA stickers, the Gun owners of America stickers on the cars that passed, and I thought you were all fools. I did everything in my power financially to try and help more laws pass that would prevent you from owning guns. I wholeheartedly believed that only the Police, and Military should have guns. Every time I heard of a gang shooting, or other criminal act committed with a gun, I honestly believed that if we could curtail the legal sale of guns, we could make a difference.

Boy was I wrong.

I have children, three actually, and to me the only thing more important than raising them properly, was seeing that they aren't hurt in anyway. I wanted to ban guns, save my children, save all children. No child should have to be part of any kind of death, especially the kind that involves being shot. I gave money to all of the anti gun organizations I could think of, went to the "Million" Mom March, even looked at Rosie when she spoke, and actually admire her. Brought the kids as well, and even yelled some not so nice things to those other marchers. I'm sure some of you know who I refer to.

I was on my way back from the march, on my way back to Connecticut, when I stopped off of the highway at a rest stop by one of those McDonalds they have off I-95. By this time I had dropped off two of my kids with their father, and only had my little one with me. I went into the restroom with her, and on my way out noticed two men hanging out by my car. There were only two other cars in the lot at the time that were anywhere near my vehicle. I immediately felt threatened by their demeanor, but continued on to my car. The smaller of the two approached me with a knife as I was about to open the door to put my child in her car seat. He yelled at me to get in the back of the car, they were taking me for a little ride. I obviously told them to just take my keys, they could have the car, but they insisted I get in the back. I then heard a man yelling something I don't quite recall, and saw him running towards me with a gun in his hand. The two men vanished into their car, and sped away. I stood there frozen in time, and by the time the gentleman with the gun got to me I just broke down and cried.

To make a long story short, you were all right, and I'm sorry. This man with a gun saved me, and I just keep thinking if I had gotten my wish and guns were banned, there is no telling where I'd be, and what would've happened to my daughter. The only regret I have is not getting the man's phone number who saved my life. I thanked him over and over again, and told him that he saved me, but he calmly said to me something I'd never forget. He said "That's what people like me are here for Ms., and I'm happy to have been able to help."

"That's what people like me are here for," those words keep on running through my head everyday. Maybe this gentleman by some chance is part of your group, and will read my message. If he does I would just like to say something to him, and to everyone else reading this note.

Thank you for saving my life, and to the rest of you thank you for fighting for this man's right to protect me and my child. Tell him for me that I will no longer be part of the group who invades his home, and tries to tell him how to store his guns. Tell him I will never be part of any group who tries to make it impossible for him to buy his tool he used to save me. And tell him I will never again tell him how to raise his children properly, because obviously I was oblivious to the fact that responsible people such as him know how to raise their children better than I do. I did rectify that situation the other day; I bought a shotgun for home protection, and am in the process of getting my concealed permit. Next time I will be ready to defend myself, or others for that matter. Some of my friends think I'm crazy, but they try their best to understand. I just tell them that as soon as their child's life is put in jeopardy by some criminal with a weapon that they will understand, but until then don't tell me how to live my life. I've lost some friends, but surprisingly most of them understand. If not for this man I could very easily have been killed or raped, and my child could've been taken from me, so once more I need to say thanks for saving me, and with all sincerity to the rest of you, forgive me, for I have sinned.

Pamela
01-27-2008, 04:12 PM
Before this thread gets closed like many others in the lounge i hope it gets moved to the Member Board so those who want to respond can, and those who don't can move on.

Mia M
01-27-2008, 09:16 PM
See what you think of this:


Forgive me, for I have sinned.

An About Face After Being Saved by a Gun Owner

Sent in by Brian Clifford, from his Dear Friend

I am one of those people who you loathe. One of those invisible people who come into your living room without asking your permission. One of those people who follow you while you shop, and make it harder for you to make legal purchases. One of those people who try and tell you how to raise your children, as if you don't know how. One of those who gives ratings to stations that promote our demise as a free nation. I am your enemy. Or at least I was.

I followed it all, all of the propaganda, all of the hoopla. Believed it too. Believed that leaving my house was more dangerous than being in a war. At any given moment one of you evil gun owners would open fire on me. I saw the NRA stickers, the Gun owners of America stickers on the cars that passed, and I thought you were all fools. I did everything in my power financially to try and help more laws pass that would prevent you from owning guns. I wholeheartedly believed that only the Police, and Military should have guns. Every time I heard of a gang shooting, or other criminal act committed with a gun, I honestly believed that if we could curtail the legal sale of guns, we could make a difference.

Boy was I wrong.

I have children, three actually, and to me the only thing more important than raising them properly, was seeing that they aren't hurt in anyway. I wanted to ban guns, save my children, save all children. No child should have to be part of any kind of death, especially the kind that involves being shot. I gave money to all of the anti gun organizations I could think of, went to the "Million" Mom March, even looked at Rosie when she spoke, and actually admire her. Brought the kids as well, and even yelled some not so nice things to those other marchers. I'm sure some of you know who I refer to.

I was on my way back from the march, on my way back to Connecticut, when I stopped off of the highway at a rest stop by one of those McDonalds they have off I-95. By this time I had dropped off two of my kids with their father, and only had my little one with me. I went into the restroom with her, and on my way out noticed two men hanging out by my car. There were only two other cars in the lot at the time that were anywhere near my vehicle. I immediately felt threatened by their demeanor, but continued on to my car. The smaller of the two approached me with a knife as I was about to open the door to put my child in her car seat. He yelled at me to get in the back of the car, they were taking me for a little ride. I obviously told them to just take my keys, they could have the car, but they insisted I get in the back. I then heard a man yelling something I don't quite recall, and saw him running towards me with a gun in his hand. The two men vanished into their car, and sped away. I stood there frozen in time, and by the time the gentleman with the gun got to me I just broke down and cried.

To make a long story short, you were all right, and I'm sorry. This man with a gun saved me, and I just keep thinking if I had gotten my wish and guns were banned, there is no telling where I'd be, and what would've happened to my daughter. The only regret I have is not getting the man's phone number who saved my life. I thanked him over and over again, and told him that he saved me, but he calmly said to me something I'd never forget. He said "That's what people like me are here for Ms., and I'm happy to have been able to help."

"That's what people like me are here for," those words keep on running through my head everyday. Maybe this gentleman by some chance is part of your group, and will read my message. If he does I would just like to say something to him, and to everyone else reading this note.

Thank you for saving my life, and to the rest of you thank you for fighting for this man's right to protect me and my child. Tell him for me that I will no longer be part of the group who invades his home, and tries to tell him how to store his guns. Tell him I will never be part of any group who tries to make it impossible for him to buy his tool he used to save me. And tell him I will never again tell him how to raise his children properly, because obviously I was oblivious to the fact that responsible people such as him know how to raise their children better than I do. I did rectify that situation the other day; I bought a shotgun for home protection, and am in the process of getting my concealed permit. Next time I will be ready to defend myself, or others for that matter. Some of my friends think I'm crazy, but they try their best to understand. I just tell them that as soon as their child's life is put in jeopardy by some criminal with a weapon that they will understand, but until then don't tell me how to live my life. I've lost some friends, but surprisingly most of them understand. If not for this man I could very easily have been killed or raped, and my child could've been taken from me, so once more I need to say thanks for saving me, and with all sincerity to the rest of you, forgive me, for I have sinned.

Honestly, I can't relate to the story and I started losing intrest after the second paragraph... I do not have, nor do I ever plan on having children. Also, unlike the writer, I do not support gun control or feel that I need to impose my beleifs on others. But I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who will find the story interesting or even moving.

All the gun propaganda I've seen has insulted my intelligence. The all or nothing attitude and the blatant use of fear by both pro and anti gun control groups makes me roll my eyes... all I can ever think is, "are there really people out there that buy this shit?"

glambman
02-03-2008, 08:26 PM
What happens if you shoot his knees out instead of killing him? Same, self-defense, no charge?



When you are placed in a situation where you need to use your weapon, you shoot to neutralize the perp, not to injure.

Imagine a cop who is put in this situation and only shoots the knees. BAD BAD BAD!!!!!

And while you may not be charged, you may be killed.

paintgoddess
02-03-2008, 10:29 PM
Many women don't like guns, period. Many can't own a gun, and many are scared of guns.


....and that is exactly me. A neighbor of mine let me hold his gun and it scared me just to hold it. I get way way too nervous around them. I have a girlfriend that always carries one in her purse after being nearly beat to death by about 5-6 other girls. She was in ICU for three weeks. I hear her story and am STILL scared to carry one or own one.

Will
02-04-2008, 08:57 AM
....and that is exactly me. A neighbor of mine let me hold his gun and it scared me just to hold it. I get way way too nervous around them. I have a girlfriend that always carries one in her purse after being nearly beat to death by about 5-6 other girls. She was in ICU for three weeks. I hear her story and am STILL scared to carry one or own one.

Exposure to the unfamiliar can be scary, especially with something as emotionally loaded as guns. It’s a normal reaction really. I am very comfortable around guns, but I don’t like chainsaws. After being taught how to use one safely, I felt less fearful of them, but I simply don’t like them. They are however a necessary tool and without one, I would have froze to death while I was living in NH and using a wood stove to heat my place. So, getting some exposure and proper training in a comfortable setting, goes a long way to helping with the fears of the unfamiliar. I have put this link up before, there is a group called the Second Amendment Sisters, which is a group run by women for women who would like to learn more about firearms, get some experiences, etc, etc. Here is there web site. I bet they have a chapter near you:

http://www.2asisters.org/

One of the moderators from my site came to visit me last summer. She’s 50, and has never touched a gun in her life. Although curious about it (as she new I was an avid shooter) she was apprehensive about it. After some instruction and such, she was actually white good and warmed up to it. I made a vid of her first time for posterity, and that’s no pee shooter she is shooting:

http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/willbrink/?action=view&current=KillerMods.flv


That’s been my experience with the many women I have taken to the range for their first exposure. Much of it does have to do with the instructor (as is the case for most things in life) ad not one women I have taken disliked the experience. Most really enjoyed it and were happy they tried it, a few could take it or leave it, and not one hated it or left feeling worse for having tried it. Most found it quite empowering as you might imagine.

Crys
02-04-2008, 01:51 PM
What happens if you shoot his knees out instead of killing him? Same, self-defense, no charge?

Don't bother. If you are going to pull a gun on someone, be ready to kill someone with it. Using it as an intimidation tactic, especially if it's an individual who is NOT highly trained, risks your life and the lives of others around you. And there have been instances where an individual who has broken into people's house's and been injured in some way has turned around and SUED the people whose house he/she broke into....and won. If you're going to point a gun at someone, be ready to kill them. Better them than you. Period.