View Full Version : Clinton & Obama clash
jasmine
01-22-2008, 06:40 PM
Notice that I was very civil until you repeatedly showed your bad manners? I've still not personally attacked you in any way. Just asked what the fuck you were talking about.
Just because you are a man who doesn't want to admit to being sexist doesn't give you the right to be rude, especially on a forum that was, after all, created for women.
jester214
01-22-2008, 07:21 PM
Notice that I was very civil until you repeatedly showed your bad manners? I've still not personally attacked you in any way. Just asked what the fuck you were talking about.
Just because you are a man who doesn't want to admit to being sexist doesn't give you the right to be rude, especially on a forum that was, after all, created for women.
I've destroyed your argument so you resort to attacking me and calling me a sexist... How sad, do you see sexism in every place you looked?
I thought this forum was created for strippers/exotic dancers (and to a lesser extent anyone related to the profession). Only women can be strippers and exotic dancers? Now who's the sexist?
BrunetteGoddess
01-22-2008, 07:57 PM
Jester and Jasmine: cut it out!
This thread isn't about your personal attacks against each other and you're derailing the thread horrendously.
leilanicandy
01-22-2008, 10:21 PM
Let's ALL try to be more civil and courteous than Hillary was last night. Shouldn't be hard to do.
LOL, It seems like she is becoming more manic.
Well, I'm almost scared to post here because of the overwhelming anti-Hillary sentiment, but I watched the debates last night and I agree with her on everything she wants to do for our country.
Well dont be scare next time. We wont attack you like Hillary do! LOL
I agree. It's wonderful to listen to all the great, fantastic programs Hillary wants to give us until you sit down and seriously think about whether or not they will actually work and more importantly, how they will be paid for. It ain't gonna be her rich hedge fund pals. It's going to be the same middle class taxpayers that Bill socked in 1993.
Well who else pocket it is going to come out of! It seem like being in the middle of anything sucks!
Well, look at how much money has been spent in Iraq. What did Obama say? That nearly two trillion dollars will have been spent before it's all said and done? Think of what that money could have done for our country and its people if it were being used here.
Yes, what could have been done with tha money for our country. Well because that money was spent. The way it was spent. Our children is most likely not to have social security. The money that will be use to fund, these so call programs. Hilliary is chatting off about, is going to be tooken out of the ever so decreasing middle class. Please note I said decreasing, since things are in a dramatic, change for the worse. People are finding it hard to keep up! In fact I seen the Brady Bunch moving into the getto last week. When I went to get my hair done. *giggle* Poor Jan, and to think she had promblems before she move into the hood. *giggle*
If my ears weren't playing tricks on me, Hilary proposed exactly such a new program during last night's debate ... a gov't 'match' to any money saved by the 'poor', undoubtedly to be funded by tax increases on the middle class.
Why Melonie, I think I heard that too! I personally think she is out to destroy the middle class. Gees it really upsets me that the all these programs. They are funding are coming from my wallet. I have to struggle and pay high property taxes. Now more of those lovely taxes are coming my way.
i only watched the first half of the debate. It was really irritating.
Next debate, Hill and Obama hsould keep their cool. Hillary in particular needs to quit with the attacks. I think it makes her look bad. Obama seemed to only attack because of provocation.
I'm not routing for anyone in particular now. Before it was Obama. Then HIllary. Edwards for a minute. If they do a debate without attacks, I think people can make a better decision as to who they prefer.
Well, Hilliary is trying to put obama in a tight situation. She want to bring out the black angry man. She want him to argue with her. This is why she throws these attacks. Obama did not start the mess! It is Hillary and her drama, trying to throw a trick in the book to win. She is trying to temp him into lashing out on her! It was kinda like wacthing a married man and woman argue about these issues. It is like the only way she can win, is she become more woman like, and targeting people by pretending she has emotions.
Melonie
01-22-2008, 11:42 PM
Well, Hilliary is trying to put obama in a tight situation. She want to bring out the black angry man. She want him to argue with her.
the 'tin foil hat' crowd will tell you that this is EXACTLY what Hilary's latest campaign strategy is all about. This goes back to the LA Times 'Obama the Magic Negro' article i.e. the idea that Barack is the first black American presidential candidate who is likely to attract votes from 'guilty' middle class white Americans. Every news story, every sound byte, and every video clip that Hilary can prompt Barack to create that portrays him as an 'angry black man' will erase more and more of 'Obama the Magic Negro' image and create more of an impression among middle class white voters that Barack really isn't any different at heart than previous black presidential candidates i.e. Rev. Al Sharpton. If Barack falls for this, his future primary election results are likely to quickly replicate Rev. Al's 2004 primary election record !!!
leilanicandy
01-23-2008, 12:54 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080123/pl_nm/usa_politics_identity_dc
"We don't have any good comparisons for how it (race and gender) is going to play out," said political science professor Robert Oldendick of the University of South Carolina on Tuesday. "We are in uncharted territory."
It is getting so ugly, people are not willing to touch it! OUCH!
"Hillary and Obama may be getting votes because of race and gender but as far as I can see they're not losing any," said former President Bill Clinton in a speech in Atlanta on Monday.
^^ I wonder what in it for him! What to Bill get if Hilliary becomes President.
Even white Democrats fare badly in most southern state races and the Democratic nominee in 2004, John Kerry, won just 30 percent of the white vote in the south, Black said.
The figure was a benchmark for judging the success of Obama or Clinton in November who would also be perceived negatively by many southern voters as big-government liberals, he said.
"In a general election campaign, if Obama's the nominee it wouldn't be his race that would drag him down in the south," said Black. "It would be his positions on the issues."
Well look how they are discouraging people to vote for Obama. They are saying because he is black he will win the democractic vote. Yet he wont make it to be president. So the I guest what they are really saying the only way is with Hilliary. Gee golly they must think American is stupid.
jasmine
01-23-2008, 07:19 AM
Yes, you don't know what your talking about. I mentioned the media to point out that "people" call her Hillary. Everyone refers to her as Hillary, people commonly think of her as Hillary.
Then say that, don't imply that it was simply based on a single incident of gender bias, it's easy to change your mind after being called on it.
If you can't handle my comments, then feel free to put me on ignore.
As I have said repeatedly, she was not refered to as Hillary at the time, at least not by the other candidates. Feel free to keep ignoring this though, it was only the entire point of my original post, and the only reason why I was offended. Don't acknowledge any of that, I'm just a woman, after all.
I wonder if you would be so accepting if it had been a single incident of racism from another candidate instead of a single incident of sexism.
I understand that you hate Mrs. Clinton, you've made that more than clear. I have no issue with that, but I'm never going to set idly by and let someone tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because I am deeply offended by sexist views.
BTW - The incident I spoke of was actually commented on, by a man, on one of the nightly news stations covering the debate immediately afterward. He said something to the effect of - Obama was trying to put Sen. Clinton in her place by condescendlingly using her first name. My husband was shocked since he had missed most of the debate and didn't believe Obama would do this. I had been trying to explain that it seemed like a real slight, but he had seemed doubtful.
(In best Scarlett O'Hara voice)
Thank you, Mr. Jester for putting me in my place. After all, I'm just a confused little woman. I just don't know what I'd do if I didn't have a big, strong man like you to tell me what to think.
(looks up adoringly)
Signing off this ridiculous thread before I can be insulted further.
Jasmine
jester214
01-23-2008, 11:46 AM
As I have said repeatedly, she was not refered to as Hillary at the time, at least not by the other candidates. Feel free to keep ignoring this though, it was only the entire point of my original post, and the only reason why I was offended. Don't acknowledge any of that, I'm just a woman, after all.
I wonder if you would be so accepting if it had been a single incident of racism from another candidate instead of a single incident of sexism.
I understand that you hate Mrs. Clinton, you've made that more than clear. I have no issue with that, but I'm never going to set idly by and let someone tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because I am deeply offended by sexist views.
BTW - The incident I spoke of was actually commented on, by a man, on one of the nightly news stations covering the debate immediately afterward. He said something to the effect of - Obama was trying to put Sen. Clinton in her place by condescendlingly using her first name. My husband was shocked since he had missed most of the debate and didn't believe Obama would do this. I had been trying to explain that it seemed like a real slight, but he had seemed doubtful.
(In best Scarlett O'Hara voice)
Thank you, Mr. Jester for putting me in my place. After all, I'm just a confused little woman. I just don't know what I'd do if I didn't have a big, strong man like you to tell me what to think.
(looks up adoringly)
Signing off this ridiculous thread before I can be insulted further.
Jasmine
You've gone from ridiculous to pathetic, if you hadn't backtracked after my first comment, I would have apologized. Now that your argument is destroyed you trying to turn this into an argument about me being a sexist.
I may have been rude, but atleast my comments had a layer of truth to them, you label me a sexist because I don't like Hillary, and because I destroyed your argument.
I'm so much of a sexist I come to a website where the majority of posters are women to talk about politics and ask questions about investing. Wow I must really think women are beneath me... So ignorant...
Eric Stoner
01-23-2008, 02:51 PM
You've gone from ridiculous to pathetic, if you hadn't backtracked after my first comment, I would have apologized. Now that your argument is destroyed you trying to turn this into an argument about me being a sexist.
I may have been rude, but atleast my comments had a layer of truth to them, you label me a sexist because I don't like Hillary, and because I destroyed your argument.
I'm so much of a sexist I come to a website where the majority of posters are women to talk about politics and ask questions about investing. Wow I must really think women are beneath me... So ignorant...
Would you and "Miz Jasmine" both step back and try to relax ! PLEASE !
Name-calling and personalizing are so unecessary. So is inventing offense where perhaps none was really intended.
Btw, nobody gets awarded any points for "destroying" someone else's argument.
Respond with your own opinion; point out flawed logic or faulty info or shaky sources- all are fine and dandy. But there's no need to gloat. Verbal "end-zone dancing" is just as intellectually vaccuous as tossing insults or calling names.
TheSexKitten
01-23-2008, 05:45 PM
IMO there's more sexism getting tossed at Hillary, but there's probably plenty of racism for Obama that doesn't surface publicly.
Because it's still kind of OK to be sexist! Silly feminazis. ::)
BrunetteGoddess
01-23-2008, 07:39 PM
Ok, I don't know if mods even respond to a reported post in Member Boards, but I reported Jasmine AND Jester.
Do you two not understand the concept of STOP IT?!
jester214
01-23-2008, 11:01 PM
Ok, I don't know if mods even respond to a reported post in Member Boards, but I reported Jasmine AND Jester.
Do you two not understand the concept of STOP IT?!
Normally I do, and I apoligize for not on this occasion. I just didn't like being called a sexist.
Eric Stoner
01-24-2008, 09:46 AM
Normally I do, and I apoligize for not on this occasion. I just didn't like being called a sexist.
Oh for Pete's sake! I probably hold the S-web record for being called all sorts of derogatory things and I've learned to just try and ignore it. There's no point to responding in kind. All it does is prolong the catfighting and ratchet up the hyperbole. Just attack the IDEAS and try to avoid the personal stuff.
Eric Stoner
01-24-2008, 09:50 AM
I think a lot of people who are inclined to be racist toward Obama base their attacks on religion instead; it's more "acceptable" in the USA in 2008, you know.
Hmmm. Well the Clinton campaign spread a lot of misinformation about Obama attending a "madrassah" and the like so maybe Bill and Hil are closet racists. Bill was a protege of William Fulbright who was as racist as they come. Hillary's from the Chicago suburbs which for decades were MORE segregated than many parts of the South. Nobody in any top position on her Senate staff or in her campaign is Black. Hmmm.
leilanicandy
01-24-2008, 10:31 AM
Hmmm. Well the Clinton campaign spread a lot of misinformation about Obama attending a "madrassah" and the like so maybe Bill and Hil are closet racists. Bill was a protege of William Fulbright who was as racist as they come. Hillary's from the Chicago suburbs which for decades were MORE segregated than many parts of the South. Nobody in any top position on her Senate staff or in her campaign is Black. Hmmm.
Really, wow ! I wonder is this the reason. Obama decided not to run under her as Vice President. It is odd how he supported Clinton and all of sudden had a change of heart.
Eric Stoner
01-24-2008, 12:40 PM
^^^ Actually, I overdid it. As much as I dislike Bill and can't stand Hillary it's neither fair nor accurate to state or imply that they are "racists". Certainly not in a strictly definitional sense of the word.
I DO think that Hillary and Bill both think they are superior to Obama in the sense that they know best what's good for black people when in reality their policies have the effect of INCREASING dependency on government. It's a fertile ground for serious discussion whether that is by design; desire and purpose or simply the natural effect of expanding government programs.
Afaic it doesn't matter. The intent ought to be increased INDEPENDENCE and greater personal responsibility.
leilanicandy
01-24-2008, 03:25 PM
^^^ Actually, I overdid it. As much as I dislike Bill and can't stand Hillary it's neither fair nor accurate to state or imply that they are "racists". Certainly not in a strictly definitional sense of the word.
I DO think that Hillary and Bill both think they are superior to Obama is the sense that they know best what's good for black people when in reality their policies have the effect of INCREASING dependency on government. It's a fertile ground for serious discussion whether that is by design; desire and purpose or simply the natural effect of expanding government programs.
Afaic it doesn't matter. The intent ought to be increased INDEPENDENCE and greater personal responsibility.
I just think this presidental race. Is more than that for Hilliary. I think they aplann this out in the begining. What they did not expect was Obama. I have to admit clinton did not have a bad budget plan. I think it was like how the bushes did it. But with the CLintons husband and wife president. This will make the history books. There is a rumor going around saying Hillary already has the presidental race in the bag. SHHH we are not suppose to tell anyone!
Melonie
01-24-2008, 05:15 PM
here's some 'insider' commentary on Clinton's latest tactics vs Obama
(snip)"Obama was up; now he's down. Even though Obama seems to be harnessing the South Carolina black vote that will give him that state's delegates, he has been feeling the brunt of the Clintons' mastery of the tactic of polarization, taught decades ago to Hillary by Saul Alinsky.
Obama is being forced into the position of being the black candidate. Successfully polarizing Obama, who has attempted to run as the anti-polarity uniter, a man in the middle, has not been a lazy-day walk in the park for the Clintons, and surely would not have been attempted if Obama hadn't trounced them in Iowa. "(snip)
(snip)"End Game: Racial Polarization
It is obvious now that the Clintons have seized upon race as Obama's potentially lethal vulnerability. They had probably hoped they would not have to use Obama's race against him to create a white backlash of electoral victories, but that point is now moot.
By attacking Obama's authenticity as a new icon for African-Americans, the Clintons understand full well, I believe, that the black community will rally to Obama, thereby demonstrating to the broader electorate that it's been about race after all.
The first racial blow, of course, was Hillary's. She failed to adequately acknowledge MLK's stature by stating that it took LBJ to get the Civil Rights Act into law. This was confirmation that they would use any and every means necessary to achieve a second co-presidency. Everyone who knows anything about Democratic Party politics of the last 40 years, knows that any slight whatsoever of MLK is tantamount to blasphemy.
Once Hillary secured her victory in New Hampshire by playing the sympathy card with female Democrat voters, she dispensed tag-team champ, Bill, to Nevada. Behind the scenes, Hillary supporters filed suit to have the special casino caucus sites declared illegal. When a reporter asked Bill Clinton if that might have the effect of disenfranchising culinary workers, the majority of whom are minorities, Bill verbally clobbered the guy, displaying his infamous temper. The reporter backed off.
In Monday's SC debate, Hillary invoked Obama's work for a Chicago slumlord, referring to Anthony Rezko, who will stand trial in February in Chicago on several corruption charges. Rezko is indeed a slumlord, and his is another tawdry tale emitting from that veritable cesspool of political corruption, Chicago. Obama's law firm did represent Rezko, Obama did know him and has received a great deal of campaign finance from him, which he claims to have returned.
Her particular use of the word, "slumlord," was a way of accusing Obama of betraying his own people.
Having instigated this quite uncivil conflict, Hillary has gone on to campaign in states with bigger-bang delegate counts, and left tag-team champ Bill behind in South Carolina to schmooze the black citizens, whom they have both done all they could to alienate.
Party elders seem so concerned over the possible fractures to their special-interest coalitions, that some are begging the Clintons - even in public - to clean up their act and cut it out with the low-body blows against Obama.
Here's my advice to the Democrats:
If one doesn't like the sight of blood, but wants to play politics with the Clintons, it might be best to invest in blindfolds.
Of all the amoral things the Clintons have done over the past 30 years, tag-teaming Obama on his race is the most dastardly, in my opinion.
Not only to Obama, but to America. "(snip)
leilanicandy
01-24-2008, 05:27 PM
here's some 'insider' commentary on Clinton's latest tactics vs Obama
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/01/hillary_and_bill_use_alinksy_t.html
If one doesn't like the sight of blood, but wants to play politics with the Clintons, it might be best to invest in blindfolds.
Of all the amoral things the Clintons have done over the past 30 years, tag-teaming Obama on his race is the most dastardly, in my opinion.
Not only to Obama, but to America. "(snip)
Wow! What a statement!
Melonie
01-24-2008, 05:46 PM
Wow! What a statement!
Well the 'old timers' in the Democratic party certainly aren't surprised by the depths to which the Clintons are willing to stoop in order to knock out Hilary's prime competition. This has gotten so nasty that some of these 'old timers' have been prompted to try and talk Bill into backing off for the good of the Democratic party i.e. Teddy Kennedy. However, I'm sure that such a phone call from Teddy was met with a response from Bill like " look, Ted, at least Monica is still alive !!!".
But ultimately, all Democrats are confident that, no matter what kind of racial polarization and personal thrashing is heaped onto Barack ... to the point that when convention time rolls around he'll be deemed 'unelectable' regardless of his primary election delegate count so that the nomination will go to Hilary ... that Democrats can still count on the fact that at least 90% of black Americans will still vote for Hilary despite her and her husband's arguably racial attacks against a black man !!! Racial politics seems to be alive and well, and you don't have to look outside the Democratic party to find it !
leilanicandy
01-24-2008, 07:56 PM
Well the 'old timers' in the Democratic party certainly aren't surprised by the depths to which the Clintons are willing to stoop in order to knock out Hilary's prime competition. This has gotten so nasty that some of these 'old timers' have been prompted to try and talk Bill into backing off for the good of the Democratic party i.e. Teddy Kennedy. However, I'm sure that such a phone call from Teddy was met with a response from Bill like " look, Ted, at least Monica is still alive !!!".
But ultimately, all Democrats are confident that, no matter what kind of racial polarization and personal thrashing is heaped onto Barack ... to the point that when convention time rolls around he'll be deemed 'unelectable' regardless of his primary election delegate count so that the nomination will go to Hilary ... that Democrats can still count on the fact that at least 90% of black Americans will still vote for Hilary despite her and her husband's arguably racial attacks against a black man !!! Racial politics seems to be alive and well, and you don't have to look outside the Democratic party to find it !
I think that is a rumor that blacks will vote for hilliary despite the attacks on Obama. Blacks are not dumb. Why vote for someone who preaches words. Of equal rights for all. How she fights for the people. Than dose not respect a person of color. Yea I am for women rights. Yet I am a woman of color. So My rights dont matter because I am color. Well given all these mix children, you will think has became more open to races of color. If anything I think Hilliary might sway others to the Republican party. If she was elected for the democractic pick
Yet but Obama can still run has a third party. He has collect enought money. To do so!
jester214
01-24-2008, 11:36 PM
I think that is a rumor that blacks will vote for hilliary despite the attacks on Obama. Blacks are not dumb. Why vote for someone who preaches words. Of equal rights for all. How she fights for the people. Than dose not respect a person of color. Yea I am for women rights. Yet I am a woman of color. So My rights dont matter because I am color. Well given all these mix children, you will think has became more open to races of color. If anything I think Hilliary might sway others to the Republican party. If she was elected for the democractic pick
Yet but Obama can still run has a third party. He has collect enought money. To do so!
Black Americans are traditionally solid democratic voters, if they vote at all they'll most likely vote for the democratic candidate.
Eric Stoner
01-25-2008, 09:29 AM
MELONIE- I hate you ! Lol. You completely stole my thunder and posted EXACTLY what I was going to say. You laid out exactly what the Clintons are doing; literally trying to maximize Obama's Black support in South Carolina to generate a white backlash on Super Tuesday by painting him as the "Black Candidate".
I'm the first one to say that Bill Clinton is political genius. Nobody in recent American political history has done better at spinning vices into virtues; mistakes into accomplishments and failures and defeats into victories. Witness South Carolina where they're taking a big fat lemon and making political lemonade.
Pamela
01-25-2008, 09:43 AM
Ok, I don't know if mods even respond to a reported post in Member Boards, but I reported Jasmine AND Jester.
Do you two not understand the concept of STOP IT?!
Yea we see it. Here's to hopes they can be civil and disagree. I understand topics can get heated but i don't think any of us want Member Boards closed.
PLEASE lets all agree to disagree. :)
Melonie
01-25-2008, 10:36 AM
I'm the first one to say that Bill Clinton is political genius. Nobody in recent American political history has done better at spinning vices into virtues; mistakes into accomplishments and failures and defeats into victories. Witness South Carolina where they're taking a big fat lemon and making political lemonade.
well don't give Bill and Hil too much credit ... the real genius of 'smackdown' political strategy is their long time adviser Saul Alinsky (see my previous link and also ).
I think that is a rumor that blacks will vote for hilliary despite the attacks on Obama. Blacks are not dumb. ...
Yet but Obama can still run has a third party.
The Clintons have already factored this in. The point about Democrats taking the black vote for granted boils down to two decisions this coming november on the part of American black voters ... voting for Hilary over Romney, or not voting. It is not very likely that any significant percentage of black voters are going to support a Republican candidate who advocates reductions in social welfare benefits, reductions in gov't grants to big cities, no increase in the minimum wage etc. As such, black voters really aren't a 'factor' in the upcoming election. other than the possibility that poor turnout by black voters might cost Hilary a percentage point or two off her total vote count. And low black voter turnout isn't very likely either, because the media / Democratic candidate will be beating the drum just before the electioni that every black voter that decides NOT to vote for Hilary equals another vote for Romney.
Forgive me for saying so, but it would appear that black voters have painted themselves into a corner by their monolithic support of democratic candidates for the past 40 years. Republicans know that they're never going to receive any significant amount of votes from the black voting 'block', so they don't bother to offer any policies that would be of particular benefit to black Americans. Democrats know that as long as they continue to advocate policies of generous social welfare programs, 'diversity', income tax refunds for people that don't actually pay income tax etc. that they can count on 90%+ support from black voters, so they no longer need to offer any policies that would be of particular benefit to black Americans either.
Yes Obama could run as a 3rd party candidate, but he won't. The reason is that Obama understands that any attempt at a 3rd party run will hand the presidential election to the republicans - in the same way that Ross Perot's 1994 3rd party bid split republican support and wound up causing a democratic / Clinton victory.
jasmine
01-25-2008, 10:38 AM
Yea we see it. Here's to hopes they can be civil and disagree. I understand topics can get heated but i don't think any of us want Member Boards closed.
PLEASE lets all agree to disagree. :)
Why do you guys think I left this thread? I am trying very hard to be civil and ignore the comments that I very much want to dispute. It is very difficult to calmly accept being called, sad, pathetic and ignorant, the problem with American politics and told you don't know what you are talking about without responding. I apologize to anyone that I may have offended by my last smart-assed post, I kept myself reigned in as long as I could.
BTW - I had already reported this thread myself and apologized to Melonie (since she seemed the most appropriate mod) hours before this was ever reported by BG.
Melonie
01-25-2008, 10:47 AM
^^^ yes, but the member boards area is (deliberately) unmoderated ... such that potential levels of negative emotion can and sometimes do rear its ugly head.
jasmine
01-25-2008, 11:10 AM
^^^ yes, but the member boards area is (deliberately) unmoderated ... such that potential levels of negative emotion can and sometimes do rear its ugly head.
Ahhh. Didn't know that. I thought maybe there just wasn't an available mod or something.
Oh well, I backed out becauseI've always felt that behaving badly myself won't make anyone else's bad behavior disappear, not so much out of fear of being reprimanded.:P ;D
Edit: Anyway, I really am sorry for my part in this train-wreck of a thread. I hope in the future people can express their political views freely and possibly even debate them in a civilized manner without name-calling and riducule.
jester214
01-25-2008, 12:00 PM
Forgive me for saying so, but it would appear that black voters have painted themselves into a corner by their monolithic support of democratic candidates for the past 40 years. Republicans know that they're never going to receive any significant amount of votes from the black voting 'block', so they don't bother to offer any policies that would be of particular benefit to black Americans. Democrats know that as long as they continue to advocate policies of generous social welfare programs, 'diversity', income tax refunds for people that don't actually pay income tax etc. that they can count on 90%+ support from black voters, so they no longer need to offer any policies that would be of particular benefit to black Americans either.
Yes Obama could run as a 3rd party candidate, but he won't. The reason is that Obama understands that any attempt at a 3rd party run will hand the presidential election to the republicans - in the same way that Ross Perot's 1994 3rd party bid split republican support and wound up causing a democratic / Clinton victory.
So true. Although I beleive there has been a small shift in some Black voters to more independent and conservative stance. Small enough that it really doesn't matter that much though.
If he did that, I would donate money to him for the rest of his political career... Although I'm still praying that he will pull out the victory, Americans have surprised themselves before. Maybe they'll see through the Clintions bullshit by Big Super Tuesday.
Melonie
01-25-2008, 02:53 PM
^^^ small enough to be infinitesimal compared to the vast majority of black voters. And talk about stereotypes ... check out this pro Hilary blurb from a (black, democratic) SC County Councilwoman -->
(snip)"In the run-up to Saturday's South Carolina Democratic primary, the first in which blacks could play a pivotal role, Clinton has spoken to mostly white audiences while her husband, Bill, the former president, has courted blacks. But that changed Friday when she made an explicit pitch for black support in a speech at a historically black college in South Carolina's state capital surrounded by prominent black supporters.
The New York senator was welcomed to the stage by two black colleagues from her home state — former New York Mayor David Dinkins and House Ways and Means Chairman Charles Rangel — who praised Clinton as a public servant and friend.
Polls show blacks strongly supporting Obama in the state, while Clinton and former Sen. John Edwards roughly split the white vote.
Stacey Jones, a Benedict College Dean who described herself as "a woman, an African American, a size 9 wide and any other label you choose to use," said she understood why many blacks might pause before voting Saturday for Clinton.
"For some of us it may take a very, very bold step to walk into that voting booth and focus on our community's future rather than acting on pure emotion. Let's do the right thing and elect Sen. Hillary Clinton president of the United States," she said to applause.
She was followed by Richland County Councilwoman Bernice Scott, who bluntly told the audience "this race is not about race or gender."
Scott said the decision should come down to which candidate can "feed the sheep."
"Senator Clinton has a record that can feed everybody. And we need to be fed," she said."(snip)
leilanicandy
01-26-2008, 04:31 AM
You know all this fighting, looks bad for democrates. It makes them look unstable. How can they stand for certain things, while fighting agaisnt each other! They will never get anything done.
Melonie
01-26-2008, 05:01 AM
How can they stand for certain things, while fighting agaisnt each other!
the more important question might be ... how can they SAY that they stand for certain things, when the things they actually DO are in direct contradiction ?
Deogol
01-27-2008, 12:17 AM
Mel,
Your post is far more an indictment of Hollywood than the democrats.
I believe, having been in the business as an executive producer, the actors you have named are successful in spite of Hollywood.
I mean come on, they hate fat women so much they will put a man (John Travolta) into a fat lady suit for a starring role rather than find a decent actress "of some girth."
Don't get me wrong; I am a firm believer democrats are masters at the backhanded compliment when it comes to black folk.
^^^ well, that's exactly what I have found to be the ugliest part of the Barack vs Hilary media slugfest. At it's root is the hypocracy of the classic Democratic policy toward black America i.e. that blacks are still discriminated against in a big way, that blacks are still victims, etc. ( all the while blaming this supposed continuing discrimination and victimization on Republican policies LOL). Now all of a sudden you have Barack as the first black American who has a serious chance of being elected president ... and look who are the ones that are now trying their hardest to hold Barack back ...
The Clintons, Rev's Sharpton & Jackson, BET founder Robert Johnson, Snoop Dogg, and a host of others are taking potshots at Obama ... and for a very important reason that arguably transcends the immediate issue. They all know that if Barack were actually to be elected president, the allegations / accusations of ongoing white racism against blacks pretty much become a dead issue. The 'tin foil hat' crowd will tell you that THIS is the real reason that Barack is now being subjected to this barrage of personal attacks by prominent Democrats and prominent black community leaders. If Barack were to be elected president, it would force a re-evaluation of just exactly what level of institutionalized racism actually remains in America, but perhaps even more importantly a re-evaluation of exactly who has been benefitting up to now from the perpetuation of racism - i.e. the white leadership of the Democratic party, the Reverends, Democratic supporter teacher's unions etc.
If Barack does secure the Democratic nomination, undoubtedly Republicans - who have been staying on the sidelines so far - will of course attack Barack as well. But I suspect that Republican challenges will be confined to election issues such as tax increases, new expensive benefit programs for the poor and lower middle class, the mideast war, lack of experience, etc. Ironically, it will probably only be the Clintons, the Reverends, and their staunch supporters that would dare to assail Barack on a personal basis i.e. rumors of drug use / sales, rumors of extreme islamic leanings etc.
All of this was actually 'predicted' several months ago by LA Times columnist David Ehrenstein (who is a black American as well) in a piece entitled 'Obama the Magic Negro'
(snip)"But it's clear that Obama also is running for an equally important unelected office, in the province of the popular imagination — the "Magic Negro."
The Magic Negro is a figure of postmodern folk culture, coined by snarky 20th century sociologists, to explain a cultural figure who emerged in the wake of Brown vs. Board of Education. "He has no past, he simply appears one day to help the white protagonist," reads the description on Wikipedia .
He's there to assuage white "guilt" (i.e., the minimal discomfort they feel) over the role of slavery and racial segregation in American history, while replacing stereotypes of a dangerous, highly sexualized black man with a benign figure for whom interracial sexual congress holds no interest.
As might be expected, this figure is chiefly cinematic — embodied by such noted performers as Sidney Poitier, Morgan Freeman, Scatman Crothers, Michael Clarke Duncan, Will Smith and, most recently, Don Cheadle. And that's not to mention a certain basketball player whose very nickname is "Magic."
Poitier really poured on the "magic" in "Lilies of the Field" (for which he won a best actor Oscar) and "To Sir, With Love" (which, along with "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner," made him a No. 1 box-office attraction). In these films, Poitier triumphs through yeoman service to his white benefactors. "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" is particularly striking in this regard, as it posits miscegenation without evoking sex. (Talk about magic!)
The same can't quite be said of Freeman in "Driving Miss Daisy," "Seven" and the seemingly endless series of films in which he plays ersatz paterfamilias to a white woman bedeviled by a serial killer. But at least he survives, unlike Crothers in "The Shining," in which psychic premonitions inspire him to rescue a white family he barely knows and get killed for his trouble. This heart-tug trope is parodied in Gus Van Sant's "Elephant." The film's sole black student at a Columbine-like high school arrives in the midst of a slaughter, helps a girl escape and is immediately gunned down. See what helping the white man gets you?
And what does the white man get out of the bargain? That's a question asked by John Guare in "Six Degrees of Separation," his brilliant retelling of the true saga of David Hampton — a young, personable gay con man who in the 1980s passed himself off as the son of none other than the real Sidney Poitier. Though he started small, using the ruse to get into Studio 54, Hampton discovered that countless gullible, well-heeled New Yorkers, vulnerable to the Magic Negro myth, were only too eager to believe in his baroque fantasy. (One of the few who wasn't fooled was Andy Warhol, who was astonished his underlings believed Hampton's whoppers. Clearly Warhol had no need for the accouterment of interracial "goodwill.")
But the same can't be said of most white Americans, whose desire for a noble, healing Negro hasn't faded. That's where Obama comes in: as Poitier's "real" fake son.
The senator's famously stem-winding stump speeches have been drawing huge crowds to hear him talk of uniting rather than dividing. A praiseworthy goal. Consequently, even the mild criticisms thrown his way have been waved away, "magically." He used to smoke, but now he doesn't; he racked up a bunch of delinquent parking tickets, but he paid them all back with an apology. And hey, is looking good in a bathing suit a bad thing?
The only mud that momentarily stuck was criticism (white and black alike) concerning Obama's alleged "inauthenticty," as compared to such sterling examples of "genuine" blackness as Al Sharpton and Snoop Dogg. Speaking as an African American whose last name has led to his racial "credentials" being challenged — often several times a day — I know how pesky this sort of thing can be.
Obama's fame right now has little to do with his political record or what he's written in his two (count 'em) books, or even what he's actually said in those stem-winders. It's the way he's said it that counts the most. It's his manner, which, as presidential hopeful Sen. Joe Biden ham-fistedly reminded us, is "articulate." His tone is always genial, his voice warm and unthreatening, and he hasn't called his opponents names (despite being baited by the media).
Like a comic-book superhero, Obama is there to help, out of the sheer goodness of a heart we need not know or understand. For as with all Magic Negroes, the less real he seems, the more desirable he becomes. If he were real, white America couldn't project all its fantasies of curative black benevolence on him."(snip)
the same 'tin foil hat' crowd would also tell you that the 'Magic Negro' factor is also the reason that Barack cannot risk taking a public position of aggressively defending himself against the personal character attacks by Hilary et al. The resulting sound bytes and video clips of Barack would make him appear to be just another 'angry black man' a la Reverend Al ... and an 'angry black man' seeking a position of great power and influence at that ... which would undoubtedly spell the end of 'Magic Negro' based voter support for Barack. And without that 'white guilt' voter support, on the basis of his tax policies, social policies, national security policies and lack of experience, it's highly probable that Barack would be defeated by just about any of the leading Republican candidate hopefuls.
The very same 'tin foil hat' crowd would tell you that the Clintons and the Reverends and the mainstream media know all of this very well, which is the reason that they feel 'safe' in levelling personal attacks against Barack without fear of reprisal ... in an attempt to knock him out in the early rounds so that Hilary can have clear sailing from Super Tuesday to the Democratic convention.
An in regard to the black American voting block, the 'tin foil hat' crowd will tell you that it doesn't matter one bit whether Barack or Hilary or Dennis Kucinich comes away from the convention as the presidential nominee. At worst, the democratic nominee will ONLY get 90% of the black vote.
~
Deogol
01-27-2008, 12:29 AM
IMO there's more sexism getting tossed at Hillary, but there's probably plenty of racism for Obama that doesn't surface publicly.
Because it's still kind of OK to be sexist! Silly feminazis. ::)
The irony of this post amazes me. }:D
Deogol
01-27-2008, 12:40 AM
MELONIE- I hate you ! Lol. You completely stole my thunder and posted EXACTLY what I was going to say. You laid out exactly what the Clintons are doing; literally trying to maximize Obama's Black support in South Carolina to generate a white backlash on Super Tuesday by painting him as the "Black Candidate".
I'm the first one to say that Bill Clinton is political genius. Nobody in recent American political history has done better at spinning vices into virtues; mistakes into accomplishments and failures and defeats into victories. Witness South Carolina where they're taking a big fat lemon and making political lemonade.
The problem is, Obama is not a "black" candidate, he is a generation X candidate. He has generational appeal - if he doesn't win it this time, he will next time.
And I am not talking about the "Vote or Die" non-registered to vote crowd - the so called political posers crowd, but the generation in it's thirties - the group that has something to vote about - especially in this time of watching the country go to shit.
The appeal to me about Obama, other than his ability to assemble complete intelligent grammatically correct sentences, is that I hear a lot of MY generation in him.
I am an independent so I leave this to the dems to sort out - but if he wins the nomination -- I WILL vote for him.
Deogol
01-27-2008, 12:43 AM
Why do you guys think I left this thread? I am trying very hard to be civil and ignore the comments that I very much want to dispute. It is very difficult to calmly accept being called, sad, pathetic and ignorant, the problem with American politics and told you don't know what you are talking about without responding. I apologize to anyone that I may have offended by my last smart-assed post, I kept myself reigned in as long as I could.
BTW - I had already reported this thread myself and apologized to Melonie (since she seemed the most appropriate mod) hours before this was ever reported by BG.
Take heart in knowing a lot of us saw the post for what it was.
Also take note this is an unmoderated area. Proceed with caution to your sanity!
When I get into a message and I know I am being emotional about it, I write that fucker out and then go watch TV or take a walk. Then I re-read it and often find I want to change it to be more intellectual and less emotional.
Deogol
01-27-2008, 12:51 AM
You know all this fighting, looks bad for democrates. It makes them look unstable. How can they stand for certain things, while fighting agaisnt each other! They will never get anything done.
This is what happens when you get a bunch of in-your-face activists together in a party. }:D
This is the primaries - they should be throwing out issues so the party can decide where it wants to put it's stand at.
Instead they are all getting this silly pandering shit. Should give the membership some pause of thought as to what their leadership thinks of them.
Melonie
01-27-2008, 01:27 AM
they should be throwing out issues so the party can decide where it wants to put it's stand at.
Unfortunately, a discussion of election issues is the LAST thing that democratic candidates want to do, and for good reason. Bringing up a discussion of election issues instead of personalities would undoubtedly also bring up a discussion that, to date, the democratic congressional majorities put into office as a result of the last election have actually managed to implement one, count it - ONE, 2006 campaign issue ... increasing the minimum wage ... which makes the current democratic congress the recordholder as being the least effective congress in US history ! None of the democratic members of congress = presidential candidates want to see that Pandora's box opened !
leilanicandy
01-27-2008, 01:34 AM
I just got news sat morning that, the obama and Clintion things is just a show! That who ever get pick, will be president. The other will run behind them! How do you like them apples?
They seem to play with all our intelligents. But I guess what ever so clever way to beat the republican party. If you scream and put on a show! You will get heard, hey it works for Brittany.
I got to give it to them! They study the reaction of american pretty good. I have to say, when it says conflict. People come to see the fight! It get the attention the party want to attract, with out spending all their money.
Melonie
01-27-2008, 09:01 AM
I just got news sat morning that, the obama and Clintion things is just a show! That who ever get pick, will be president. The other will run behind them! How do you like them apples?
This is simply 'wishful thinking' on the part of a few democratic blogs ... so far. As to the impact if this were to ever really happen ...
(snip)"Here are some reasons why Barrack Obama could be Hillary Clinton’s choice to run with her as Vice President:
1. It would unifying the party after a divisive campaign, which is something the democrats will need to get out the vote and minimize democrats jumping ship to vote for Bloomberg.
2. All indications are Obama is going to be playing a big part in the future of the democratic party for years to come. Becoming Vice President now will season him to run for the Presidency in eight years.
3. There is a reasonable belief that his name on the ticket would increase the voter turn out of African American voters in Southern states, which would increase the chances for the Democrats getting elected. And conversely, for her NOT to choose him would be to create a rift with many black voters, likely leading to lower than average turn out, unless she can convince them she had very good reasons to go with someone else- which is unlikely. He is seen as the most dynamic and energizing candidate, and any other would be seen as a poor replacement.
4. He will end up with nearly as many delegates as Hillary. This buys him more of a right to join the ticket as Vice President than other leading democrats have.
5. While people like Joe Biden, he doesn’t carry much momentum or wow factor. “Vice President Barrack Obama” will get people excited, and mobilize and energize the party’s faithful. As for John Edwards, he was already on the VP ticket last time around. They failed to carry even one southern state.
6. Electing the first African American into such a high office is historic, and while that alone is not reason enough, it certainly adds a great deal of interest and energy to a man already qualified and respected.
Why Hillary might not choose Obama as her Vice Presidential running mate?
1. No President wants to feel upstaged by their VP, nor do they want to feel an eagerness in the ranks or in the public for their time to be over so that the VP can finally take over.
2. See #1. It’s worth mentioning twice.
3. Obama is seen as more liberal than Hillary. He won’t help bring over some more conservative and moderate voters who would prefer to see someone closer to center on the ticket. If the ticket is Clinton Obama, especially as john McCain fades away as the age issue becomes prominent (not many voters have realized he will be 76 when he leaves office, 5 years from now, and then his VP will be running) it will make for a particularly divisive, polarizing race.
4. On a personal level, Obama very likely isn’t particularly excited about being Hillary’s fall guy for the next 8 years. In addition, being VP for 8 years can sometimes give a candidate enough mud (even if it isn’t there own) to taint the view of voters. Right now, Obama is a fresh, clean slate of enthusiasm and idealism. He is well aware that after 8 years in the white house as VP, he won’t be seen so freshly or idealistically. (this holds true even if Hillary loses in after her first term, and he is out of the White house for 4 years)."(snip)
from
of course, Barack is already on record in telling news media that he wants no part of being VP 'second fiddle' ......
(snip)"Letterman asked Obama if there had been any discussion of the Illinois senator sharing the Democratic ticket with New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton.
"No, you don't run for second," Obama said. "I don't believe in that."
Letterman offered that a Clinton-Obama combination "would be a powerful ticket," to which Obama replied: "Which order are we talking about?" "(snip)
from
^^^ with Obama's comments definitely reinforcing #1 above i.e. no president wants to be upstaged by their V.P.
Pamela
01-27-2008, 09:34 AM
Well after reading and watching this "rat race" Florida loves Hillary. She will do fine in Florida.
Obama will to i am sure, but not as good. We have a long way to go. Hillary is good, i believe what she says, and she speaks well and quick, but she is kinda cold, which worries me. People want a president who seems warm hearted and cares.. i'm not seeing this with her... yet.
I feel she is fighting so hard this tough act has come out covering up natural good qualities in her.
leilanicandy
01-27-2008, 04:33 PM
Well, Pam if we need a snake. Than Hilliary is the best candiate. American do not all think alike, which makes us Americans. If American wants Hilliary so be it! My vote will be for Obama. If he dont win I will just move to canda. I here they have a very nice woodland area. I refuse to go down with america.
If we choose Hillary as a democrated pick. She still will have to go agaisnt Mr. R . Which by the way is another Bush. People are just blind by his good looks. All I know is the next president better fix what Bush mess up! Or America is in trouble! Well I guess I need to get to packing! Canda seems like a nice country to live in!
Eric Stoner
01-28-2008, 09:05 AM
Well after reading and watching this "rat race" Florida loves Hillary. She will do fine in Florida.
Obama will to i am sure, but not as good. We have a long way to go. Hillary is good, i believe what she says, and she speaks well and quick, but she is kinda cold, which worries me. People want a president who seems warm hearted and cares.. i'm not seeing this with her... yet.
I feel she is fighting so hard this tough act has come out covering up natural good qualities in her.
So what ? The DNC took away Fla.'s delegates for moving up it's Primary. Hillary initially promised not to campaign in Florida as did all the other Dem. candidates.
Being Hillary ; and since her word is worthless; NOW she is campaigning there AND she wants Florida's and Michigan's delegates seated and voting at the Dem.Convention. Only reason being, she's going to need every delegate she can get.
What a gal !
Pamela
01-28-2008, 09:50 AM
True, true. This is after all a very cut throat election.
The worst i have watched. But, in the end may the best man (or woman ;))
Be President of the United States.
Eric Stoner
01-28-2008, 12:50 PM
True, true. This is after all a very cut throat election.
The worst i have watched. But, in the end may the best man (or woman ;))
Be President of the United States.
Pamela, you amaze me. You decry the tone of this election; set almost entirely by the Clintons ; you acknowledge that the DNC took away Florida's delegates and that Hillary joined hands with her fellow candidates and PROMISED ( gave her word ) not to campaign in Florida and has reneged for the second time and you WANT her as your President ! ? ! ? What sort of dishonor would it take to turn you off of Hillary ? How badly would she have to behave for you NOT to vote for her or does she have carte blanche ?
leilanicandy
01-28-2008, 08:32 PM
Well, at least we know, if Clinton wins. We know what she will do, if she is back into a wall. She will comes out fighting the only way she knows how!
Oh my, she fights real dirty.
Hilliary we see your true colors:)
Yes it will be a big kick in the butt to men. To show a woman can do a heck of a better job. When it comes to running this country.
jester214
01-28-2008, 08:37 PM
Well, Pam if we need a snake. Than Hilliary is the best candiate. American do not all think alike, which makes us Americans. If American wants Hilliary so be it! My vote will be for Obama. If he dont win I will just move to canda. I here they have a very nice woodland area. I refuse to go down with america.
If we choose Hillary as a democrated pick. She still will have to go agaisnt Mr. R . Which by the way is another Bush. People are just blind by his good looks. All I know is the next president better fix what Bush mess up! Or America is in trouble! Well I guess I need to get to packing! Canda seems like a nice country to live in!
I'll join you, I bet me and you could lead a nice life in Canada. What do ya say?
Melonie
01-28-2008, 09:36 PM
^^^ I'd say 'the grass is always greener over the septic tank' ... plus you'll need a visa !
Deogol
01-28-2008, 10:00 PM
Yes it will be a big kick in the butt to men. To show a woman can do a heck of a better job. When it comes to running this country.
And if she fails it will be men's fault anyways.
Melonie
01-28-2008, 10:03 PM
^^^ I'd say 'the grass is always greener over the septic tank' ... plus you'll need a visa !