View Full Version : Elections Have Consequences ... Australian Style
jester214
02-04-2008, 01:07 AM
a salient point is I earn money
the USA just prints it and thinks they should still somehow get away with it
I'm glad for you. And I'm sure all the people in other countries and in the UN will glady accept the money you "earn" when they can't get the money we "just print" anymore because our economy has crashed, as per YOUR wishes.
jester214
02-04-2008, 01:12 AM
oh please. STFU & get real! I've said several times that what's needed for Kyoto to work is to get everyone fully on board. places like India and China. I also said that maybe some "carrots need to be dangled " to get that to happen.
Do you know what getting India and China on board Kyoto does? Nothing. It doesn't cause for them to reduce emissions, because there "developing" which just means businesses in other countries will go do their polluting there. Where there are no standards at all.
Kyoto blows, it doesn't work, it won't work. As long as "developing countries" can still pollute while other countries can't. The burden will just shift. So what's the point?? Kyoto is nothing more than a fucking statement that will hurt the economy of multiple countries, while not helping the enviroment.
flickad
02-04-2008, 09:33 AM
I'm glad for you. And I'm sure all the people in other countries and in the UN will glady accept the money you "earn" when they can't get the money we "just print" anymore because our economy has crashed, as per YOUR wishes.
Please don't think all Australians are this clueless, jester. I'm feeling rather ashamed to share a nationality with someone who holds (and airs!) views that are this simplistic and offensive.
Booms and busts are, as you say, part of the cycle of capitalism. Your economy will indeed surge again (and yes, I do hope that's sooner rather than later, for everyone's sake), and when it does I wonder what salsa4ever will say about 'karma'.
EDIT- I just did a search on some of salsa4ever's posts and he's no dummy. He's quite accomplished and has made many intelligent remarks in other threads. His views on the desirability of the potential American recession, in that light, bemuse me even more. I'd really be interested in knowing the reasons for them. They can't simply be related to America's wrongs, since all nations have committed terrible wrongs and, in many ways, continue to commit them.
Tara_SW
02-04-2008, 10:52 AM
Do you know what getting India and China on board Kyoto does? Nothing. It doesn't cause for them to reduce emissions, because there "developing" which just means businesses in other countries will go do their polluting there. Where there are no standards at all.
Kyoto blows, it doesn't work, it won't work. As long as "developing countries" can still pollute while other countries can't. The burden will just shift. So what's the point?? Kyoto is nothing more than a fucking statement that will hurt the economy of multiple countries, while not helping the enviroment.
:banghead: fucking-a how many times do I have to write? I have said they need to be fully on board. Annex #1 level. not developing country exempt for Kyoto to work. And for that matter our own USA needs to fully get back on board too considering we are the world's largest producer of CO2.
but back to China and India, I have repeatedly said that if they won't or don't agree to level #1 of Kyoto then the international communtiy needs to "dangle carrots" to get them to WANT to limit their emissons.
I can tell you this much for sure though, doing nothing to reduce CO2 like Melonie thinks is the best course of action ( because according to her many, many topics on the subject she doesn't think CO2 is even connected to global warming) is going to do acomplish NOTHING in terms of slowing the negative consequences of global warming/climate change.
I'm done with this now because those who oppose Kyoto and/or CO2 reduction in general are so myopic further discussion is a waste of time.
Melonie
02-04-2008, 04:38 PM
And for that matter our own USA needs to fully get back on board too considering we are the world's largest producer of CO2.
Well, in point of fact, projected growth of Chinese CO2 emissions may put them in the #1 position by the end of this year, and will certainly pass the US in CO2 emissions by 2009, according to . See also which reports that China has already achieved #1 CO2 emitter status.
The reason of course is that, between 1990 and 2004, America's CO2 emissions increased at an overall rate of <20% while China's CO2 emissions increased at an overall rate of >100%.
Furthermore, latest figures show that America's CO2 emissions only increased by 6% during the last year, while China's CO2 emissions are now growing parabolically because of new coal fired power plants coming online at the rate of two per week to power new / transplanted manufacturing plants.
http://earthtrends.wri.org/images/chart_chinachart2_small.gif
Thus the bankrupting of many former US manufacturers, and the transplantation / outsourcing of that former US production to China, has been very effective in reducing CO2 emissions from the USA ! However, the reduction which took place in the USA was FAR exceeded by the new CO2 emissions occurring because of transplantation / outsourcing of former US production to China.
I would also add that at a 6% growth rate, the US is now the slowest growing CO2 emitter of any industrialized nation. Europe's CO2 emissions are growing at a rate that is almost twice that of the USA. However, Europe is complying with their Kyoto treaty commitments WITHOUT actually reducing their CO2 emissions. They comply by leveeing 'carbon taxes' on all sources of fossil fuel energy, they collect this tax money from all European residents, and they then pay this money to a Carbon Credits trading company (a la Al Gore) who then makes arrangements with a heavy CO2 generating company in China or India ( with a certain amount of commission added) who then agrees (on paper at least - no way to really know what goes on in China or India) to cut back slightly on their own CO2 emissions in exchange for being paid lots of extra Euros !
Please just take one minute to consider the overall effect of the Kyoto arrangement. Middle class and 'poor' Europeans see their standard of living decline because of the additional 'carbon taxes'. Al Gore and other carbon credits traders profit handsomely from commissions on carbon credits trading. The Chinese or Indian company selling the carbon credits also profits handsomely ... particularly so if they don't actually bother to do anything to actually reduce their carbon emissions, but simply promise to do so on paper. But keep in mind who actually has a stake in the ownership of these Chinese and Indian companies - some percentage is owned by the Chinese / Indian gov'ts, but a large percentage is owned by uber rich hedge fund investors - many of whom are actively advocating the expansion of Kyoto compliance and thus the expansion of carbon credits trading (and not for humanitarian resons, but because they stand to personally profit greatly).
~
salsa4ever
02-04-2008, 05:40 PM
Please don't think all Australians are this clueless, jester. I'm feeling rather ashamed to share a nationality with someone who holds (and airs!) views that are this simplistic and offensive.
Booms and busts are, as you say, part of the cycle of capitalism. Your economy will indeed surge again (and yes, I do hope that's sooner rather than later, for everyone's sake), and when it does I wonder what salsa4ever will say about 'karma'.
EDIT- I just did a search on some of salsa4ever's posts and he's no dummy. He's quite accomplished and has made many intelligent remarks in other threads. His views on the desirability of the potential American recession, in that light, bemuse me even more. I'd really be interested in knowing the reasons for them. They can't simply be related to America's wrongs, since all nations have committed terrible wrongs and, in many ways, continue to commit them.
OK I will retract my "karma" remark.
If you study economics, you would realize just how manipulative the USA has been in re the world economy. From Bretton Woods and the abolition of the gold standard, followed by massive and uncontrolled issuing of bonds that foreigners have hitherto been willing to buy because of their (in my opinion largely unjustified) position as the world's reserve currency.
Having issued all this US dollar based debt to countries like Switzerland, China, Japan, Taiwan, Israel, etc. the US government then shits on its creditors as it's doing now, by hyperinflating it's currency.
I will be awaiting with bated breath to see whether the USA precipitates war against Iran and other countries in concert, if they dare to further undermine the USA's unfair advantage by accepting Euros and Yen in exchange for oil.
salsa4ever
02-04-2008, 05:43 PM
I agree Melonie, India and China have to be forced to comply. Otherwise it's just a sham as you said. The problem is that WW3 might obliterate the planet immediately rather than 100 years time!
flickad
02-04-2008, 05:55 PM
OK I will retract my "karma" remark.
If you study economics, you would realize just how manipulative the USA has been in re the world economy. From Bretton Woods and the abolition of the gold standard, followed by massive and uncontrolled issuing of bonds that foreigners have hitherto been willing to buy because of their (in my opinion largely unjustified) position as the world's reserve currency.
Having issued all this US dollar based debt to countries like Switzerland, China, Japan, Taiwan, Israel, etc. the US government then shits on its creditors as it's doing now, by hyperinflating it's currency.
I will be awaiting with bated breath to see whether the USA precipitates war against Iran and other countries in concert, if they dare to further undermine the USA's unfair advantage by accepting Euros and Yen in exchange for oil.
I have never studied economics and can't claim any knowledge of the workings of national or global economies. Thank you for the explanation, though I'm still wondering if you think an American recession would be a just desert or, instead, simply a good thing in global economic terms. Also, do you think there would be much spillover in terms of other economies or do you tend to think the damage would be limited in international terms?
salsa4ever
02-04-2008, 06:45 PM
Acknowledging another point you made, the USA sure doesn't have a monopoly on international economic wrongs! Rewind back to when Britain was the world's superpower - they too, instigated economic (and indeed military) opression and exploitation on a lot of its colonies (not so much Aus, NZ, Canada - more like Hong Kong, China, Singapore, India). Opium wars, anyone?
As they said, power corrupts. Superpowers are bad for the world. To take an Aus example, what if Safeway was the only supermarket! We'd have even more pain than we have now! So one of the reasons I seem to "enjoy" the US economic turbulence is that it will help to level the global playing field and equalize the power of USA vis a vis China, and the EU.
I think there will be some international spillover effects. Like it or not, the common US consumer (these middle class people coloquially referred to as "joe sixpack") is responsible for a lot of the world's consumption! If they're forced to cut down on consumption, there will be a reduction in worldwide demand, in markets where there is a global market anyway. In the equity markets anyway, the US rules the roost. In the very short term there is a huge correlation between the behaviour of US equity markets and worldwide markets.
Personally, I think Australia will be relatively insulated. Look at our reserve bank, they're almost certainly going to raise interest rates today. For the Australian who actually owns some wealth in Australian $ denominated assets, the last few months has been a godsend! I'm travelling to HK (which has a currency peg with the USA) this month and I couldn't be more excited with the exchange rate! I've totally banked on my long gold positions, the price of gold having rocketed up from <$700 in october or so to >$900 now. If you read especially Melonie's posts in the DD, you'd realize it was pretty obviously coming. Now consider how much gold Australia still produces. The price of commodities is rocketing, in terms of USD anyway, so for a commodity heavy country like Australia, it's not too bad either.
jester214
02-04-2008, 08:23 PM
:banghead: fucking-a how many times do I have to write? I have said they need to be fully on board. Annex #1 level. not developing country exempt for Kyoto to work. And for that matter our own USA needs to fully get back on board too considering we are the world's largest producer of CO2.
but back to China and India, I have repeatedly said that if they won't or don't agree to level #1 of Kyoto then the international communtiy needs to "dangle carrots" to get them to WANT to limit their emissons.
I can tell you this much for sure though, doing nothing to reduce CO2 like Melonie thinks is the best course of action ( because according to her many, many topics on the subject she doesn't think CO2 is even connected to global warming) is going to do acomplish NOTHING in terms of slowing the negative consequences of global warming/climate change.
I'm done with this now because those who oppose Kyoto and/or CO2 reduction in general are so myopic further discussion is a waste of time.
Then why the fuck have you been touting the strengh of Kyoto? As it is now, it doesn't fucking work period. Melonie, in this topic atleast, was talking about Kyoto. If they make a Kyoto Protocal 2 that fixes everything I will be on board.
jester214
02-04-2008, 08:33 PM
OK I will retract my "karma" remark.
If you study economics, you would realize just how manipulative the USA has been in re the world economy. From Bretton Woods and the abolition of the gold standard, followed by massive and uncontrolled issuing of bonds that foreigners have hitherto been willing to buy because of their (in my opinion largely unjustified) position as the world's reserve currency.
Having issued all this US dollar based debt to countries like Switzerland, China, Japan, Taiwan, Israel, etc. the US government then shits on its creditors as it's doing now, by hyperinflating it's currency.
I will be awaiting with bated breath to see whether the USA precipitates war against Iran and other countries in concert, if they dare to further undermine the USA's unfair advantage by accepting Euros and Yen in exchange for oil.
I have studied economics, and all countries are manipulative in regards to there position in the world economy. Look at every stable and even semi-stable country in the world, they look after themselves first, always. (With the obvious exclusion of a very few countries, who are so dependent on other nations, they try not to offend anyone).
America gets blamed for it because we're on top right now. China, Japan, etc. took the risk when they decided to play in our yard. Just like we take the risk when we dabble in any unstable economy.
I think you'll be holding it for awhile.
salsa4ever
02-04-2008, 09:15 PM
America gets blamed for it because we're on top right now. China, Japan, etc. took the risk when they decided to play in our yard. Just like we take the risk when we dabble in any unstable economy.
I think you'll be holding it for awhile.
Well we can agree on that much.
That's why I think a correction in the US economy is a good thing because it will drag them back towards the rest of the playing field.
And I hope so. I don't want war.