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Dottie Rebel
02-15-2008, 08:19 PM
It is a synthesized vitamin supplement, just like we take in multi-vitamins. It is added to pet food because the high temmperatures of the rendering process destroy most of the natural occurring vitamin, the same way many vitamins are leeched out of all food during cooking.

flickad
02-15-2008, 08:27 PM
The couple that every one referred to as vegan were absolutely not vegan. They fed their child cod liver oil which is an animal product. Here is a quote from Fox News.

The Swintons, who say they approach veganism as a religion, fed the child a diet of "ground nuts, fresh-squeezed fruit juices, herbal tea, beans, cod liver oil and flax seed oil," a complaint said.

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Definitely, not vegan. Veganism is about compassion for other sentient beings, not their own or their baby's health.

Take a look at this book available for $10 and some change from Amazon.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/2135GT2ZCAL._PIsitb-dp-arrow,TopRight,21,-23_SH30_OU01_AA115_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Dr-Spocks-Baby-Child-Care/dp/B000F9SUVC/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203131408&sr=8-1)
Dr. Spock's Baby and Child Care : 8th Edition (http://www.amazon.com/Dr-Spocks-Baby-Child-Care/dp/B000F9SUVC/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203131408&sr=8-1) by Benjamin, M.D. Spock



Regards,

Johnny

I was talking about the Australian cases. I've never heard of the Swintons.

flickad
02-15-2008, 08:30 PM
It is a synthesized vitamin supplement, just like we take in multi-vitamins. It is added to pet food because the high temmperatures of the rendering process destroy most of the natural occurring vitamin, the same way many vitamins are leeched out of all food during cooking.

That I didn't know, though I had read that raw meat is the best way to meet the nutritional needs of obligate carnivores such as cats.

Dottie Rebel
02-15-2008, 08:34 PM
Ok, I found this:

"In 2000 a breastfed toddler from NSW, whose parents were vegetarian and rejected conventional medicine, died of malnutrition. The couple refused conventional medical treatment for the 14-month-old girl and turned to naturopathic remedies and Reiki massage. Both parents were jailed for manslaughter after her death." (http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/malnutrition-a-fact-of-life-for-many/2007/11/08/1194329410308.html?page=2)

She didn't have a vegetarian or vegan diet. She had a diet of breast milk, which is supposed to be sufficient nutrition for a child up to four, according to the World Health Organization. The media just made vegetarism a red herring.

Can you point me to the other cases you'd heard of?

AmazingKat
02-15-2008, 08:36 PM
I read a few of the articles listed above. It seems that the stance of those against vegan diets in children is that they are not receiving all the nutrients they need. These sources seemed to be unreliable news articles. The position paper from the American Dietetic Association agrees that if a child were to simply cut out meat they would be lacking, so that is why supplements and fortified products should be used. I think this is an incrediably reliable source and it also lists many sources of iron and zinc that so many say are impossible for children to obtain.

My main concern is raising children from birth on antibiotic and hormone filled meats and dairy. I believe that all the antibiotics we consume since birth contribute to the mutations in bacteria that eventually lead to superstrains and staph resistant infections.

I don't have the time right now to write a full fledged argument and cite my sources. I'm just playing devils advocate here and throwing the idea out as something to consider and perhaps someone else can add to it.

flickad
02-15-2008, 08:39 PM
Ok, I found this:

"In 2000 a breastfed toddler from NSW, whose parents were vegetarian and rejected conventional medicine, died of malnutrition. The couple refused conventional medical treatment for the 14-month-old girl and turned to naturopathic remedies and Reiki massage. Both parents were jailed for manslaughter after her death." (http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/malnutrition-a-fact-of-life-for-many/2007/11/08/1194329410308.html?page=2)

She didn't have a vegetarian or vegan diet. She had a diet of breast milk, which is supposed to be sufficient nutrition for a child up to four, according to the World Health Organization, so my guess is there is much more to this case. The media just made vegetarism a red herring.

Can you point me to the other cases you'd heard of?

There was one of a Victorian baby who died as a result of only being fed rice milk by vegan parents, though I don't recall the name of the family. It does seem horribly obvious that rice milk is a very inadequate diet for anyone, never mind an infant, though I also remember nutritionalists coming out at the time and saying that veganism was a dangerous regime for children and infants, because it may well be inadequate for development and growth.

Dottie Rebel
02-15-2008, 08:45 PM
^^Again, these are unfounded opinions that are espoused in news articles after hotbutton cases, not facts. When a nutritionist comes out after these cases and says "See, veganism is dangerous" that is a huge leap in logic. But the writer got their quote from a dietician and they're onto the next story.

No, babies shouldn't be fed rice milk or soy milk NOR dairy milk as their main nutrition. They should drink breastmilk or formula.

As long as children are getting the nutrients they need, they will not be malnourished. Period. And it's not rocket science to eat a healthy vegan diet. I can't stress enough this is about proper nutrition--not the sources of the foods. Children who subsist on "kid foods" like hot dogs and crap are NOT being properly nourished. These stories of vegan parents are sexy and sensationalistic, but if you search for articles on child nutrition you will find about 1000 articles about childhood obesity to every one of those articles. The latter are just more novel.

AlexxaHex
02-15-2008, 10:32 PM
I love this thread - thanks to everyone for participating civilly. I will look over some of those links when I'm more awake tomorrow.

flickad
02-15-2008, 11:15 PM
No, babies shouldn't be fed rice milk or soy milk NOR dairy milk as their main nutrition. They should drink breastmilk or formula.


Absolutely, and I've already said that in relation to Crown Shakur's parents. As I said when I posted the links, I can't say for certain that a carefully balanced and appropriately supplemented vegan diet would necessarily impede child development. I am just erring on the side of caution when I say that I do worry about a complete lack of animal foods in the diets of very young children.

However, the available information I've read does conflict, and if you have a good understanding of nutritional needs during various stages of childhood and how to meet them without resorting to any animal products, the likelihood may well be that the child in question will be fine. I'm just not completely convinced that it will always be, which may well be based on illogical fears and my own experience with (admittedly stupidly unsupplemented) veganism. I suppose one of the things I worry about is the existence of trace nutrients in animal-derived foods that we may not know about but that may be necessary for maintenance of a child's health, which was one of my fears with regard to my cat as well.

Malnutrition and childhood obesity caused by junk food diets certainly are problems that are far more widespread than any caused by unbalanced vegan diets, simply because diets that are inadequate by reason of being overly processed are far more common. I don't advocate these types of diets, and when I was vegan, railed against people who criticised the nutritional adequacy of my intake (on the basis that I wouldn't eat any animal foods, though I did eat plenty of vegetables, fruits, wholegrains, soy and other plant proteins) while existing on diets of largely processed junk foods. I'm not completely disagreeing with you, in other words. I'm just questioning whether veganism truly is adequate during early developmental stages. I'm not saying that it isn't- it may well be, if done right- but I can't bring myself to accept it for little ones without any reservations.

AlexxaHex
02-16-2008, 05:46 AM
I myself have met children who were raised completely vegan and they were unbelievably happy and healthy (and well behaved). I know it can be done.
The question for me is "how?".

flickad
02-16-2008, 08:14 AM
^

Read up as much as you can about nutritional needs in childhood and how best to meet them with a vegan diet. You could begin by googling keywords like 'vegan', 'children' and 'nutrition' and then sifting through the results. Also, you might like to ask the parents of these kids you've met for their tips. If their children are doing well, they must have useful information to share.

StrawberrySwitchblade
02-18-2008, 12:39 PM
This thread has inspired me to go veg again! Thanks Alexxa! I really, really do appreciate it!

AlexxaHex
02-18-2008, 09:33 PM
Hey, no problem! Glad I could help! ;D

I made something really yummy for dinner tonight although it wasn't totally vegan.
I took some tempeh, sliced it up and pan fried it in some pesto I hadn't used up yet. I sprinkled a little nutritional yeast on it too.
Then I put it in a spinach wrap with some sliced red peppers, avocado and red leaf lettuce. It was awesome. I wish I had more tempeh so I could make it again tomorrow. The pesto has a little cheese in it, but I can also make my own vegan pesto when this jar runs out.