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RebeccaSolidarity
02-08-2008, 02:00 PM
I dunno what the hate-on for Lusty Lady in SF is all about, honestly. I know a bunch of the women who work there (through two really close friends who I know from activist stuff who also work there) or have worked there and the only complaints anyone has ever had - to my knowledge - concerns the hiring and firing practices of the worker owned cooperative. People sometimes bitch about the money but they also mention in the same breath that it is worth the low payout because they really love the club and the people there and so forth. So I kind of doubt that they are an example of "everything that is wrong" with whatever situation, because most of the people who work there dig on it and those who buy into the cooperative get a say in how the club is run.

Granted the peepshow booths are sometimes real gross (real real gross) buuuut yeah...

As for Deja-Vu... That is a hate-on that I understand. While squatting anbd scumbagging (couch surfing) in San Francisco I heard a whole lot of real nasty but true stuff about that company. The name kind of makes my face twitch, cause the labour activist in me gets all riled into some kind of anger ball.

Jenny
02-08-2008, 02:48 PM
I dunno what the hate-on for Lusty Lady in SF is all about, honestly. I know a bunch of the women who work there (through two really close friends who I know from activist stuff who also work there) or have worked there and the only complaints anyone has ever had - to my knowledge - concerns the hiring and firing practices of the worker owned cooperative. People sometimes bitch about the money but they also mention in the same breath that it is worth the low payout because they really love the club and the people there and so forth. So I kind of doubt that they are an example of "everything that is wrong" with whatever situation, because most of the people who work there dig on it and those who buy into the cooperative get a say in how the club is run.

Granted the peepshow booths are sometimes real gross (real real gross) buuuut yeah...

As for Deja-Vu... That is a hate-on that I understand. While squatting anbd scumbagging (couch surfing) in San Francisco I heard a whole lot of real nasty but true stuff about that company. The name kind of makes my face twitch, cause the labour activist in me gets all riled into some kind of anger ball.The thing about the Lusty Lady is that is essentially helping strippers right out of the part of the job they actually like the most - the money. There is no money there. They have girls who say "it's worth the low payout because we love the club" because those girls are the only girls that work there. Girls that want to make money work someplace else. That's why. As you see from this thread - labour changes are supposed to be positive, not negative. It's not a hate on; it's just not a system that anyone who wants to make money wants to work under.

Although - I do think everyone should keep in mind, that unionizing did not make it peep show. It was a peep show with a salary before; I don't think the dancers then were making much more (or possibly not more at all) than the "senior" dancers there now. Anyone work there who can chime in on that?

RebeccaSolidarity
02-08-2008, 03:03 PM
Right. But if the people who work there do not care about making as much money as they could elsewhere, I see no point in calling it an example of "everything that is wrong" or whatever. If anything it seems like a really great option for dancers who enjoy being dancers and do not care about money as much as other dancers do. One thing that I have noticed is that everyone seems to have a club preference for where they work as well as very different standards of what makes 'good money' and what does not. Some dancers here like the dive clubs while others like the more ritzie clubs, some happilly expect only $100 or $200 a night while others expect at least $600 to even call it a decent work night. If anything it seems like an example of an alternative for dancers who just have different priorities rather than an example of some horrible awful thing that we should all avoid.

Sorry, sorry. I do not need to ramble or go on about it. I just get defensive when union stuff and cooperative stuff and so forth comes up. It is probably the whole "solidarity between unions" thing we have going on between the IWW and the Lusty's union SEIU... that and a club like the Lusty looks amazing to me because although the money is not as good as some would want, it is good enough for me and it would help me get out of the outcall sub/domme work that I am totally getting really sick of while keeping the money at least somewhat comparable. Though I admit I would probably not seek work there just because I would have to change unions and the IWW is a lot better than the SEIU in my opinion.

Annnyway... time for exercise and water and stuff. Apologies again if I went off topic or anything.

:/

Oh, and I dun work there... but here is the info from their website:

http://www.lustyladysf.com/history/history.html

miabella
02-08-2008, 04:58 PM
unions suck unless the work is fungible. sexwork, being among the types of work* that are too private to usefully regulate/restrict on a large scale**, is also not fungible. thus, on two levels it is poorly served by unionising.

*childcare is also too private to usefully regulate/restrict on a large scale, as another example. and it's also not exactly fungible.

**by which i mean even with legalising or decriminalising, you still have a huge supply of unregulated labor to meet demands that cannot be legitimately legalised. stripping's often technically legal, but giving a properly legal dance many places would leave a girl broke each shift. likewise, some sex acts or methods of selling sex are not permitted to be for sale in places where prostitution is legal and/or decriminalised.

throwing the logistics of a union into labor that is primarily private and temporary is just asking for trouble and won't make conditions better for the bulk of people doing the work.

Melonie
02-08-2008, 05:35 PM
How does this work at the end of the year when you want to declare what you actually earned (or at least more than what the club is declaring?)

it puts the employee dancer technically in the wrong for 'wilfully failing to report' her full tip income to the club, so that income taxes can be withheld. If the employee dancer then attempts to report her additional tip income as independent contractor business earnings, it puts the employee dancer technically in the wrong for employing 'tax fraud' i.e. reporting income from a separate business venture that does not actually exist.


OK..so what I see happening is that the high earners bounce out because they won't want to deal with this crap. The girls who fly in will stay in their own state to work.

This will especially be the case if Nevada practices re tipped income of Casino workers is also applied to tipped income of Strip Club workers. The current arrangement typically involves tip sharing ... which would mean that girls who typically earn large amount of tips would be required to 'subsidize' other girls who typicall earn very little in tips.


And it's widely known that after said lawsuit, CA clubs started taking even MORE of the girls' money and that the nasty factor in CA clubs went way up - girls gotta do more in order to charge more, to make up for the heavy fees they pay to the clubs now.

If dancers are categorized as statutory employees, this creates a new financial burden for the club in the form of 'employer' Social Security taxes, unemployment insurance premiums, disability insurance premiums etc. which the club must pay in proportion to the REPORTED income of the dancers. So yes the clubs are going to glom onto a large percentage of customer private dance money and/or VIP-Champagne Room money, perhaps paying out 50% of the customer's money to dancers as a 'sales commission' (which will be fully documented, and fully taxed).

The same 'employer' costs will also serve as a strong incentive for clubs to limit individual dancers to 24 scheduled hours per week i.e. 'part time' employees under labor laws. Employers are able to avoid a large amount of mandatory employee benefit costs i.e. unemployment insurance premiums, disability insurance premiums etc. as long as the 'employee' does not work more than 24 hours per week.


And it's widely known that after said lawsuit, CA clubs started taking even MORE of the girls' money and that the nasty factor in CA clubs went way up - girls gotta do more in order to charge more, to make up for the heavy fees they pay to the clubs now.

this is basically because 'extras' money which directly changes hands between customers and dancers in the privacy of the VIP room is the only money that will not be subject to the club taking a 50% cut, the IRS taking another 30% cut, sharing with other dancers working on the same night etc.

Minette
02-08-2008, 07:10 PM
Having worked at strip clubs, the Seattle Lusty Lady, and a Deja Vu peep show as an independent contractor (blargh to Deja Vu) - I'm going to throw in the opinion that comparing either of the Lusty Ladies to strip clubs is like comparing apples and kumquats. Not only is it a completely different business model - it's a completely different type of work. Working on the Lusty mainstage isn't sales - it's dancing naked, paid by the hour and a lot less work that stripping, so it makes sense that it doesn't pay as much. It also requires a lot less equipment; off-the-job maintenence, and putting out money of your own. You just go to work; smear on some make-up; strap on some shoes; and dance and smile. It's practically zen. Not that there aren't asshole customers every once in a while, but it ain't even close to the hustling and customer interaction involved in stripping.

The peep show at the deja vu was the worst of both worlds in my opinion, but I was only a wee baby stripper back then and didn't know what the fuck I was doing. I still maintain that Deja Vu management sucks the mammoth dick of death though.

Jenny
02-08-2008, 07:23 PM
Right. But if the people who work there do not care about making as much money as they could elsewhere, I see no point in calling it an example of "everything that is wrong" or whatever.
Okay - look at it this way. When I say "everything wrong" perhaps what I should have said is "everything that we (most of us) don't want. Most of us want money. We do not want a model of work environment in which we cannot make money. Therefore for the vast majority of dancers that model would be "wrong." Of course, as I said - unionization didn't make it a peep show, and they were paid a salary beforehand; I don't think unionization resulted in the low pay. So that is something to keep in mind.

miabella
02-08-2008, 07:59 PM
Having worked at strip clubs, the Seattle Lusty Lady, and a Deja Vu peep show as an independent contractor (blargh to Deja Vu) - I'm going to throw in the opinion that comparing either of the Lusty Ladies to strip clubs is like comparing apples and kumquats. Not only is it a completely different business model - it's a completely different type of work. Working on the Lusty mainstage isn't sales - it's dancing naked, paid by the hour and a lot less work that stripping, so it makes sense that it doesn't pay as much. It also requires a lot less equipment; off-the-job maintenence, and putting out money of your own. You just go to work; smear on some make-up; strap on some shoes; and dance and smile. It's practically zen. Not that there aren't asshole customers every once in a while, but it ain't even close to the hustling and customer interaction involved in stripping.

The peep show at the deja vu was the worst of both worlds in my opinion, but I was only a wee baby stripper back then and didn't know what the fuck I was doing. I still maintain that Deja Vu management sucks the mammoth dick of death though.

the lusty lady is unique to most peepshows, where the customer has more direct verbal contact with the dancer by default, rather than as an exceptional circumstance. other peepshows tend to be nothing but 'private pleasures', and are correspondingly far more draining and stressful.

Bridgette
02-09-2008, 03:03 PM
Can we get off the Lusty Lady tirade? The only reason I brought it up is because the girls there are employees, always have been, and the money they get paid sucks ass. AND they have to abide by strict scheduling, etc. WTH wants to put up with that crap as a stripper? Clearly only a tiny percentage; for the vast majority of us, the MONEY and FREEDOM of being IC is the biggest reason we strip in the first place. HOWEVER, LL girls DID have to take a paycut after their unionization - the club can't afford to pay the salaries they once did. That's a fact. Maybe it's due to a decline in their business, but I'd bet that was at least in part due to a bunch of girls leaving because they didn't like the results of the unionization.

Shit, a whole lot of us, myself included, can make more than LL girls do with our clothes ON.

Deja Vu is a perfect example of how it would work if we all had to become employees. Clubs would take huge cuts of our sales and dancers would be left with 2 options: settle for earning about half the money, or start putting out in the VIP for tips in order to maintain income levels. I say FUCK THAT.

Dj Captain Rob
02-26-2008, 12:12 PM
My 2.5 Cents...

The odds are that certain small areas of the country will eventully make the dancers employees but I highly doubt it will ever become a universal law that covers all the clubs. It would greatly affect the hustle on all aspects of this business both Club and Performer. Plus the regulation on the dancers would create an enviroment where the "good" dancers would have so many restrictions and the clubs would take so much more that it would no longer make logical sense. There will always be dancers for the clubs (the skanky or drugged out ones, or the ones that care about nothing) but the days of the high quality entertainer would be a thing of the past.

Which brings me to the point of the ideas of a Dancer Union, IMO it would be nothing short of impossible. The benifits of a union would be to hold club owners to a standard that is favorable for the union. Reason this works, and i will use the recent writers strike as an example. Is that in that example the writers could strike and said strike DID damage to the studios and all members of the Union stuck together.
In our case, it is unrealistic to think that a Dancers Union would be taken seriously. First off a strike would be laughed at, the club owners would just hire a bunch of (lesser) dancers to make due in the meantime, dancers rarely all work together and in this business there is no loyality. So even if they all walked out on Monday, by Tuesday half would be back to work. As we well know alot of dancers live day to day and striking would hurt them more than the clubs themselves. Not to mention the regulations clubs would then place on the union.

Over the years of being a Dj, I have heard the Union idea mentioned (or just the dancers uniting together for a common cause) and on paper is sounded great but dont think it will ever happen in my lifetime :)

Cap't

RebeccaSolidarity
02-26-2008, 05:21 PM
well, there is technically already a sex workers union. the thing is that those of us who are in it do not try to work with clubs so much as we try to change state and federal laws in order to ensure safer work environments and the decriminalization of other professions beneath the umbrella. the model for our particular union is changing slowly and more resembles a political action group at this point than the unions of the steel workers and other labourers who use strikes and so forth as their main tools for change. but this is somewhat off the point i guess.

does anybody know anything new about what is happening in vegas?

bebewood
03-14-2008, 05:53 AM
wait, strippers dont get to keep all their tips? the club gets a cut from TIPS too? really? ive never worked at a club so i dont get it....isnt it enough that they get a cut off of dances, vips and you have to pay to get on stage and tip out everyone?

bebewood
03-14-2008, 06:08 AM
When hell freezes over. Clearly no stripper is going to sell those rooms if she is not getting paid.
Okay I know very little about this new law they are trying to pass, but I have a few questions
Are they gonna keep VIP prices the same if they pass this? couldnt they jsust lower the price and have the customers tip the stripper? or also couldnt they just make it commission based? Where do you guys get that the stripper will get NO cut of the dances she sells if they make her an employee?
Also in some clubs dancers are forced to work a minimum of a certain days and it has to be the same days each week already, so idk how that would change that....

bebewood
03-14-2008, 06:17 AM
K, let me rephrase my previous statement. Having strippers as employees will only work for THE STRIPPERS in 1 of 2 possible scenarios:

1. Clubs are held accountable by law for what goes on inside club walls, not just the strippers. Clubs are also held responsible and accountable by law for their labor handling and accounting practices. Considering the shift in local laws over recent years to remove much of the accountability for what goes on in stripclubs from the owners and place the burden on the dancers, I'd say FAT CHANCE of this happening.

2. Clubs willingly (ie, not by being forced) do the right thing and hire us as tipped employees and let us keep all of our tips. As we all know, in the vast majority of cases this is simply not gonna happen.

Otherwise, clubs are going to abuse the situation, just like they do now, and keep as much of our money as possible while doing just enough legally to keep their own asses covered. Most clubs will take all customer money and just pay us a crap hourly wage, MAYBE with some crap commission on sales - kinda like what happens at Lusty Lady and Deja Vu clubs.

The only dancers this arrangement will benefit is the girls on the low end who can't sell. The rest of us will basically wind up subsidizing their wages - those of us who still hang around that is.



Furthermore, to expand on what Susan said about dance prices being claimed as club charges so clubs can take most of the money. Sure, customers can still tip the girls on top of the dance price. But that will mean the customers will expect MORE for their "dance" if they're going to pay more. This is why CA clubs have become so dirty in general and why it's so hard for most CA dancers to make any kind of decent living as DANCERS.

Wait, some clubs dont take commision on sales???
i guess I'm screwed living in CA. i though taking a percentage off of dances was the norm? i didnt know in some clubs you kept all the money you earned off dances and only payed a FLAT house fee!

sinfulcandy
03-14-2008, 11:57 AM
Up front, let me just say that I am not, nor have I ever been a dancer. I have managed an adult website with live nude girls before and I dearly love strip clubs.

I think that you all have made some very valid points, both for and against becoming employees. Since I don't work in the industry I'm not going to take a side one way or the other on it in this post.

My objective is merely to point out that if this is truly something that you believe should not occur then perhaps you should request the opt-out form and simply carry a number of copies with you so that you can tell the out of town girls about what is going on and ask them if they would like to opt out. If they choose to do so (and I bet they would too), have them sign the form and send it in for them.

If they weren't on the official class mailing list, it won't matter because the attorneys have to sort that crap out anyway.

Just my two cents on this issue.

dangerousdiva
03-14-2008, 03:07 PM
Wait, some clubs dont take commision on sales???
i guess I'm screwed living in CA. i though taking a percentage off of dances was the norm? i didnt know in some clubs you kept all the money you earned off dances and only payed a FLAT house fee!

This is how it currently works in Vegas topless clubs. We pay a flat fee and keep ALL the money we earn from dances and VIP's. This is how it should stay!!!!