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Sophia_Starina
02-12-2008, 11:58 PM
So when I do my Little Red Riding Hood or my Little Bo Peep or my Little Miss Innocence(frilly skirt with stockings and a pink and white frilly corset and pig tails) or my School Girl im being creepy?

In my opinion.... the last two are creepy. But this is just me.

I know Canada has more emphasis on costumes for dancers... around here we just wear lingerie or something short/tight.

One day a girl came in dressed as Bo-Peep... in June... we all thought she was nuts. So yes... that might be creepy too.

I just don't get how anything having to do with children can be considered sexy.

Jenny
02-12-2008, 11:59 PM
^^^
I think it is very creepy when you start looking at it on a social level; like why these things have the iconographic values they do, etc., etc. But I think that is much different than saying that a guy who finds an adult woman wearing a girl scout uniform sexy actually wants to fuck an actual girl scout. Like, obviously pedophiles exist; but I think most guys who find it sexy find it sexy because an adult woman is wearing it, not in spite of it. In a nutshell I think it is way excessive and inaccurate to peg guys who like school girl outfits, pigtails and/or lollipops as pedophiles.

Sophia_Starina
02-13-2008, 12:04 AM
I tried to think about this....
I said "maybe if I come up with an equivalent thing from the female perspective, I will understand."

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j116/yozerities/Misc/StuartMadTV.jpg

Nope... still unsexy...

Callyish
02-13-2008, 12:05 AM
In my opinion.... the last two are creepy. But this is just me.

I know Canada has more emphasis on costumes for dancers... around here we just wear lingerie or something short/tight.

One day a girl came in dressed as Bo-Peep... in June... we all thought she was nuts. So yes... that might be creepy too.

I just don't get how anything having to do with children can be considered sexy.


The thing is though... this is a feature thats doing it.

Features are paid to put on theme shows. Obviously the feature is going to go with the theme that fits her best.

Im starting to become to tattood to pull these themes off now but there was a time when they were my major money makers.

I am going to go with what makes me money. As this girl is doing or any girl who does this.

When I worked in PHX I still made bank in my school girl with pig tails as a regular house girl. When I first started dancing I had a young face with braces and glasses... I did the school girl well.

Sophia_Starina
02-13-2008, 12:06 AM
Hehehehehe...

Mad TV: Stuart--- Toothfairy Skit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIDJDkbutGk


Ohhh... this video is making me so horny. This guy looks SO young.... and he's in jammies...

Nope, still not working.

Mily
02-13-2008, 12:07 AM
I tried to think about this....
I said "maybe if I come up with an equivalent thing from the female perspective, I will understand."

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j116/yozerities/Misc/StuartMadTV.jpg

Nope... still unsexy...


I disagree. I want to fuck him. :P

Sophia_Starina
02-13-2008, 12:09 AM
I disagree. I want to fuck him. :P

;D Hehehehe...

Callyish
02-13-2008, 12:12 AM
So I just asked my man... he wants to fuck me in a school girl with pigtails... and hes in no way into pedophilia... he just thinks the school girl thing is hot...

Sophia_Starina
02-13-2008, 12:13 AM
But why is it hot?

Callyish
02-13-2008, 12:18 AM
First off your hard pressed to find a guy who doesn't find the school girl thing hot.

My man said its hot because it suggests innocence... seeing an innocent girl do naughty things is attractive to a lot of guys.

Jeska
02-13-2008, 12:32 AM
I doubt the men that come to see her are imagining her as a 14 year old.

I think she's hot. :-*

dollyrocker
02-13-2008, 12:47 AM
Believe it or not, it's the economy. I read a study awhile back that said when times are good and people are flush with cash, then men like curvy womanly adult bodies. But when men are having financial trouble, the economy isn't doing well, and men are feeling emasculated, then they seek solace in skinny, immature girls who make them feel like bigger, more impressive men. It makes sense.

Ahhhh, I'm a sucker for studies like this! Do you have a link to it?

Ironically, when the economy is in better shape and people can eat better, they want to be thinner too, and the fashion/dieting industry glamourises the thin frame. Right now our economy blows, and curves are all over Hollywood. This probobly fuels the demand for a novelty skinny chick since it's not an image men are as bombarded with right now.

It goes beyond stick thin and va-va-voom though. Marilyn Monroe and Twiggy had the same bust-waist-hip ratios, which is what most men are subconciously drawn to. It's whats known as the nulliparous figure - the ideal figure of a woman whos never had children before. Younger girls are more likely to have it, hence men are turned on by young/young looking bodies.

Whats more disturbing to me is that young faces are considered more sexually attractive as well. A group of scientists in Germany studied this for several years and concluded that women who have the features of average 14 year old caucasian girls are considered most attractive; full lips, small noses, round wide set eyes, high cheekbones, etc. etc. Our most beloved Hollywood popstars, sex symbol actresses, etc. have these features - for a reason. It's a beauty thats precieved as submissive, non-threatening, and 'fresh'. Whereas stars such as Meryll Streep and Jamie Lee Curtis, stars with sharper features, can play up their sexuality but usually don't get slapped with the sex symbol label.

Thats the way of our culture though, and has been for a long, long time. Theres a lot of great books on this subject in one way or another, but the one I'm most fond of (and have recomended here before) is Survival of the Prettiest: The Science of Beauty by Nancy Etcoff. A MUST READ for anyone in an appearance related industry. It's very easy to read yet highly informative, with some statistics that are just downright depressing.


With that said, I googled this features pics and while she has a very young looking body, her features aren't as soft looking, so in that sense she breaks the mold, and I applaud her for it. It's cool thats shes found a gimmick that works for her. And I think Anton LaVey was 1000% right when he said the ultimate worth of a person is how much they can accomplish with what (little) they have. ;)

Tofulita
02-13-2008, 01:44 AM
But why is it hot?

I think it has to do with the personality that is expected to go along with it. Happy, bright, bouncy girls who are a nice change from depressing reality. Happy girls who are happy about sex, and who don't know much about it. Not just in the virginal sense, but they don't know how it can hurt, how men can fail, or how stds are passed. Someone whose sexuality has so far just been her pleasuring herself, and only positive. Someone who is ready for more.

Or at least that's my take on it. Happy, and without a negative view on sex.

Pretty_Penny
02-13-2008, 01:47 AM
Like, if a guy thinks I look cute in my spiderman underoos, it does not mean that he wants to fuck a 10 year old boy.

please please please tell me you have spiderman underoos...

because i actually do too.

bebewood
02-13-2008, 01:52 AM
im sorry that you think you need fake tits to be a woman. jenna isskinny, with low body fat comes little boobs. it doesnt make her any less "womenly"
people like you are the reason why so many girls get implants

Pretty_Penny
02-13-2008, 01:53 AM
and PS i think a lot of the "why is hot" questions can be answered by "the media"

for instance.. the "schol girl thing" is hot because we've been told 927291 times that it's hot. not that it didn't -start- somewhere.

i think for most guys the school girl thing is hot because it makes them think the girl is being playful/naughty and/or it reminds them of porn. i think it has little to do with wanting to fuck an underage girl.

although....
i worked with a girl at my old club who SERIOUSLY looked 10. i'm not kidding. not 16, not even 13.... TEN.

she used to wear real child-like outfits, carry a stuffed animal around and hand out candy. she would even talk like a child. she made RIDICULOUS amounts of money, and i'd be lying if i said it didn't disturb me a bit.

Sophia_Starina
02-13-2008, 02:02 AM
and PS i think a lot of the "why is hot" questions can be answered by "the media"


Yeah, you're right. I think the fashion industry has a lot to do with it too.

Now that I think about it, Jean Kilbourne wrote about this exact topic in:

http://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Persuasion-Women-Addictive-Advertising/dp/0684865998/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202893597&sr=8-1


Younger and younger girls are being portrayed as sex objects. Can we really blame these guys in the clubs for desiring that which is made to look "desirable"? (I know I can... hehehe but I'm evil)
Can I sit here and blame Jenna Haze for working that which God gave? (maybe...)

I think that this whole fucking thing is warped.

Corey
02-13-2008, 02:52 AM
I don't know why but I do know what you mean.

I get a lot of returning customers.. and besides being intellectual in conversation I don't do anything too unique. But I am very tiny.. about 110lbs, 32B.. a lot of guys like to guess my size which is kinda awkward. I know one perv for sure likes to fantasize about me being his daughter who is like 15. He's never said it but his whole body language changes when he speaks of her. And I remember mentioning I like to drive and him telling me he needs a new "driving partner" because she's begun to spend so much time with friends.

I'm around the same size as you and weigh even less, but in my club, big and curvy rules. Bad economy or not. I think it depends on the area.

AlexxaHex
02-13-2008, 02:59 AM
My point is that men still like what they liked in high school. For example, why is classic rock played on loop in every club? It reminds them of the good times as young men. The Catholic school uniform was their first impression of sexiness, and they do like their wives, lovers, and strippers to wear them. That plaid skirt was lingerie then and continues to be now. That, and a Wonder Woman costume. Bankity bank.

Agreed.


^^^
I think it is very creepy when you start looking at it on a social level; like why these things have the iconographic values they do, etc., etc. But I think that is much different than saying that a guy who finds an adult woman wearing a girl scout uniform sexy actually wants to fuck an actual girl scout. Like, obviously pedophiles exist; but I think most guys who find it sexy find it sexy because an adult woman is wearing it, not in spite of it. In a nutshell I think it is way excessive and inaccurate to peg guys who like school girl outfits, pigtails and/or lollipops as pedophiles.

And also agreed....


I have been a dominatrix for many years and I've seen a lot of clients, many of them with fetishes for all kinds of things (if there is a fetish I've pretty much done and seen it all - you name it). If there's one thing I have to say is true among 90% of them is that they all go home and live normal productive lives after our sessions and don't continue to have a Mistress/slave relationship 24/7. Therefore, the fetishes they act out are part of a fantasy, and they understand the difference between fantasy and reality.
Men don't need to live out fantasy as part of their real lives in order to be fulfilled. Just as you can put on a wig and pretend to be the hot neighbor once in a while as your boyfriend is fucking you, it doesn't necessarily mean that fucking you in a wig is a prelude to him eventually cheating. Most men are often even satisfied by just talking about their fantasies with someone. This is why phone sex and sex on the internet are so successful.
Men also become fixated on whatever crystalized their first erotic experience. So if they are 10 years old and playing with mommy's stockings and happen to get an erection, it doesn't mean he wants to fuck his mom when 20 years down the road he is reminded of that experience while seeing a beautiful woman in stockings by gaining a sexual response from it.

To come on here though and diss a porn star because you think that her mere body type promotes sexual deviance in some way is really stretching things. Women who have this body type CAN and DO make money and it's fucked up to tell them they are "boyish". Women come in all shapes and sizes and I think a lot of women were offended by this thread.

Dottie Rebel
02-13-2008, 03:11 AM
Women come in all shapes and sizes and I think a lot of women were offended by this thread.

Not so much offended as: ::)

I'm 5'4", 104 pounds, barely a B, and look damn young. And I'm a fucking woman. BTW, I agree with everything you said about fantasy. I LOVE barely legal porn. I'm well aware the women are over 18. Wouldn't have it any other way. But the idea of young, innocent girls getting crazy for the first time is a turn on. Maybe it reminds me of my youthful discoveries. I never really examined it and don't think I need to.

Callyish
02-13-2008, 03:23 AM
I think its great this girl is rockin a natural body.

She didn't fall into the 'i need a million surgeries to look hot' group.

I say good on her for rockin and bankin off what she was born with.

It really pisses me off that girls are bashing her for making bank off being a natural good looking girl. So what if she looks young? She is going with what goes with her look.

xxxblueeyesxxx
02-13-2008, 03:30 AM
I can understand if skinny, yougish looking girls want to be dancers and do well... but TRYING to look younger is a whole 'nuther can of worms.


This is a particularly passionate subject for me, as I am a huge advocate for the charities and organizations that work to promote awareness of and end sex trade/human trafficking SPECIFICALLY that of which children are involved.

But, I know that if I start typing about THAT this will turn into a ten page lecture, so I'll just state a question/comment that came to me after reading Sophia's post..

As I said before, if I start talking about the MEN/COUPLES that are INTERESTED in the "young to creepily childlike" dancers, I would start spitting nails. Their levels of deep pathology are not what is at debate for me.

My question (truly just a question, I'm not sure of which side I'm on, or if I think that this is right or wrong) is: is it really wrong for a (legal aged) dancer to do the whole "pigtail, I'm nine years old" thing? I mean, in the Hustle Hut, we discuss every single way to hustle and appeal to every kind of demographic. Everything from "i pretended to be drunk" (which TOTALLY works btw!! }:D) to well, everything else.

How can we begrudge the women that this works for? We can dislike/hate/be repulsed by/feel mind numbing pity for the wives/mothers/sisters/DAUGHTERS that these men darken the hallways of.. But aren't the women in our industry who play up this role simply hustling in their way?

I am a 34D. 105lbs, and all of 5'0 tall. I'm young (21) and look younger. While I personally don't play up the whole "kiddie" thing, (simply because as someone said much earlier, it doesn't make me feel sexy - rather it makes me feel silly, and well, kinda "childish" next to the 5'9 blondes legging their way around me) I can't hate on the girls that do. RATHER I HATE ON THE MEN that make it a type of demographic that has financial potential.

The issue that our world suffers from in places such as Cambodia is the same that we are suffering from in the U.S.:

IT IS NOT THAT THE "PROVIDERS" ARE THERE (may it be 7 year olds available for $30 american, or $1K an hour NY VIP rooms) IT IS THAT THERE IS A MARKET FOR IT. IF THERE WERE NO AMERICAN, AND EUROPEAN etc. MEN OUT THERE PAYING FOR THESE TYPES OF PEOPLE, THERE WOULD BE NO ONE SELLING IT.

These men are REVOLUTIONIZING the economies of ENTIRE THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES. They are the men that are walking amongst us. I can ONLY HOPE that they are keeping their fantasies inside the strip club with OF AGE (albeit underage LOOKING) women, rather than acting out these repulsive compulsions with those who ARE TRULY CHILDREN.

AmazingKat
02-13-2008, 03:32 AM
I agree with Alexxa. I'm 21 but on the petite/flat side and I find it impossible to pull off looking any older than I am. I hate getting called "boyish." I'm not a boy, I'm just not a woman with wide hips and large breasts. Some days I wish I was a 6 foot tall amazon but I'm a 5 foot petite girl and fortunate that everyone (mom and grandma) in my family look at least 20 years younger than they are.

I also find as customers get older they get worse at guessing my age. Most guys under 30 pin point me around 21-22. Guys 45+ can't guess worth a damn, they just know I'm young enough to be their daughter. I don't think any of these guys are honestly really pedophiles. I think the key to the school girl routine is looking fresh, fun and natural instead of a sexy vixen. The school girl outfit I wear is sooo far removed from an actual school uniform that I don't think any guys really associate it with actually being a little girl. I like it because the skirt is short and perfectly frames my ass and the tied white shirt looks slightly amateurish. I do the lollipop thing sometimes because I mimic giving a bj on it. I think guys enjoy the simulated bj more than the lollipop as a prop.

I'm not an expert on pedophile fetishes but I think any real pedophile would see the difference between a woman in her young twenties and an actual 10 year old. Some of us just look really young, but thats just the way we are. Some guys like experienced vixens and some guys like the slightly naive, fresh look. I would much rather have a pedophile in a strip club dealing with a 21 year old women who looks younger than dealing with children. Such a man knows where his attention (and wallet) belong.

I actually find I make more money with what I call the "good girl gone bad" look. I still wear the tiny pleated skirt but I'll wear it in black and pair it with a regular non-stripper bra from Fredericks or tiny cropped 3/4 sweater. Its the same idea as the school girl costume but without that particular....icon? (not sure what to call it). I don't think its necessarily the thought of some catholic high school girl that gets them aroused but of the fresh but naughty attitude that accompanies it.

Mily
02-13-2008, 06:47 AM
How can we begrudge the women that this works for? We can dislike/hate/be repulsed by/hate/feel mind numbing pity for the wives/mothers/sisters/DAUGHTERS that these men darken the hallways of.. But aren't the women in our industry who play up this role simply hustling in their way?




I completely agree, and I told the very young-looking dancer that I worked with to play that school girl theme up if that's what it took for her to make her money. It was her story about the teacher regular that disturbed me. Like you, I can only hope these guys/couples keep it all in the club.

LatinaRose
02-13-2008, 09:21 AM
I have to disagree - Jenna Haze is HOT. In fact, she's one of my favorite porn stars. I don't think she looks like a little girl either. Her body is natural and HOT, especially that ass. Yes she is younger looking and natural, but in no way does she look (or act!) like a child. Honestly, I think a lot of you are over-analyzing.

We used to have a girl at my club who really did look like a 12 year old with baby fat and prepubescent looking breasts. That was worrisome and disgusting. Jenna Haze does not look like that.

ETA: Jenna probably just chose those costumes b/c they looked good on her and she's not that creative. Not b/c she wanted to please pedophiles.

DanceLunaDance
02-13-2008, 09:33 AM
Believe it or not, it's the economy. I read a study awhile back that said when times are good and people are flush with cash, then men like curvy womanly adult bodies. But when men are having financial trouble, the economy isn't doing well, and men are feeling emasculated, then they seek solace in skinny, immature girls who make them feel like bigger, more impressive men. It makes sense.

This is pretty interesting...

SundayMorning
02-13-2008, 09:37 AM
Agreed.



And also agreed....


I have been a dominatrix for many years and I've seen a lot of clients, many of them with fetishes for all kinds of things (if there is a fetish I've pretty much done and seen it all - you name it). If there's one thing I have to say is true among 90% of them is that they all go home and live normal productive lives after our sessions and don't continue to have a Mistress/slave relationship 24/7. Therefore, the fetishes they act out are part of a fantasy, and they understand the difference between fantasy and reality.
Men don't need to live out fantasy as part of their real lives in order to be fulfilled. Just as you can put on a wig and pretend to be the hot neighbor once in a while as your boyfriend is fucking you, it doesn't necessarily mean that fucking you in a wig is a prelude to him eventually cheating. Most men are often even satisfied by just talking about their fantasies with someone. This is why phone sex and sex on the internet are so successful.
Men also become fixated on whatever crystalized their first erotic experience. So if they are 10 years old and playing with mommy's stockings and happen to get an erection, it doesn't mean he wants to fuck his mom when 20 years down the road he is reminded of that experience while seeing a beautiful woman in stockings by gaining a sexual response from it.

To come on here though and diss a porn star because you think that her mere body type promotes sexual deviance in some way is really stretching things. Women who have this body type CAN and DO make money and it's fucked up to tell them they are "boyish". Women come in all shapes and sizes and I think a lot of women were offended by this thread.

Agreed 100%. Very well-put.

ViolaStrings
02-13-2008, 11:32 AM
A few points

1. I think, even though it makes money, specifically child themed outfits are participating a culture that forces sexuality onto girls at a continually younger age. Even though it "works" for you and makes you money, have you ever stepped back and wondered WHY you're making money? I personally think it's disturbing and won't budge on that. I'm not condemning anyone who does it, it's just my personal opinion.

2. Jenna Haze does have a great natural body, and I was using her as an example. I wasn't blaming her for this trend. Plenty of far more attractive NATURAL porn stars have featured at my club and have not brought about the kind of response she has, and the only explanation I can draw is her specifically targeting the audience that fetishizes youth. If you saw her in person, and not pictures, you might see why I'm disturbed with how young of an image she's portraying on stage.

3. Jesus, I am not saying all dancers need to be voluptuous or enhanced. Thin is FINE. Jeez, other than my breasts, I am not a curvy girl.

ViolaStrings
02-13-2008, 11:35 AM
As for "Men will find what was sexy at the dawn of their sexuality sexy for the rest of their lives" - well, that's a guy who hasn't matured in his sexuality and emotional capacity to relate to women past his teens. He's stuck in that time, and can't move past it to see how sexy someone in an appropriate age bracket for him is.

A 60 year old man desiring school girls, girl scouts, little bo peep, etc suggests something very disturbing, imho. Whatever pays the bills.

Indira
02-13-2008, 11:41 AM
I think a lot of men being attracted to the whole "young girl" thing is very disturbing.

Out of expierence (12 yrs) in a club has taught me that it is most of it is an ego thing. Quite frankly some men especially the ones with a low self esteem are imtimidated by a women that looks like a confident, knows what she is doing, woman. If I have seen it once, I have seen it a thousand times. They will quickly flock to the stage to tip a dancer who does not know what the hell she is doing and moves awkwardly. They love it too when they are naive. I think it makes some men feel more comfortable because they feel superior and the girl would be more easily impressed by them. I am sure that they feel that a "woman" would be harder to impress and it would require more work and isn't as quick to jump into bed with them. (not saying that a young girl will jump into to bed any quicker just because she is young).

I am sure this may offend some people but this is my perspective. I used to be an 18 yr old dancer and played up the whole naive, innocent girl thing. I remember how the men reacted to that. I also remember my best friends dad coming in and confessing that he had always had a thing for me. Met him when I was 14.

So I think it is like what I said above or they are just flat out filthy pedophiles.

I personally will never wear little school girl outfits. I can't stand to see girls wearing them and I think those of you who don't see anything wrong with it might feel differently if one day you have a young daughter and look back on this issue.

AlexxaHex
02-13-2008, 11:42 AM
Okay a man who is a pedophile is one who is attracted to children. Women in girly, frilly (shall I say childlike) outfits are not children. It is fantasy, and not pedophilia.

RebeccaSolidarity
02-13-2008, 11:44 AM
it is hot because people fetishize the forbidden and taboo. why do you think shibari rope bondage became so popular originally? because it looked pretty? no, because it developed out of the military rope restraint techniques of the Japanese military once upon a long time ago. they paraded prisoners through town and folk just wound up fetishizing it cause of the military connection. people like being bound because it made them feel like criminals, et cetera.

teachers sure do have student fantasies, both male teachers and female teachers. because the aesthetic is forbidden to them. so they think about it, and eventually it becomes fetishized and so on. same thing with incest scenarios like "daddy and girl" and all other variations on that. it is taboo, therefore lots and lots and lots of people are secretly going to find it hot.

does that mean they are sick?

no, not really.

just because someone fantasizes about calling someone daddy or even roleplaying the scenario does not mean they actually want to fuck their father. most would even find the idea of actual incest disgusting. I have to pull this sort of stuff out of peoples heads all the damn time for work and to be honest most folk are embarassed about that sort of fantasy because they know it is wrong, they only want the fantasy and not the reality. After all, everyone needs an outlet.

NewMoon
02-13-2008, 11:45 AM
Okay a man who is a pedophile is one who is attracted to children. Women in girly, frilly (shall I say childlike) outfits are not children. It is fantasy, and not pedophilia. Well put. I'm obviously against child molestation and hurting children but there is nothing wrong with fantasy play.

Heck, if deviant fantasies are wrong, then send me to the electric chair!!

Jenny
02-13-2008, 11:46 AM
As for "Men will find what was sexy at the dawn of their sexuality sexy for the rest of their lives" - well, that's a guy who hasn't matured in his sexuality and emotional capacity to relate to women past his teens. He's stuck in that time, and can't move past it to see how sexy someone in an appropriate age bracket for him is.

A 60 year old man desiring school girls, girl scouts, little bo peep, etc suggests something very disturbing, imho. Whatever pays the bills.
Well, not to beat a dead horse, but I think there is a big and significant different in desiring an adult woman dressed up as Bo Beep or a girl scout (or spiderman or a cat) and desiring an actual girl scout, a character in a nursery rhyme or spiderman or a cat. While you might find the source of the iconography disturbing or dislike it and can certainly criticize it, you cannot legitimately conflate those things.

And I would further suggest that nostalgia is not incompatible with maturity.

AlexxaHex
02-13-2008, 11:50 AM
Jenny (once again) sums it up pretty well.

ViolaStrings
02-13-2008, 11:52 AM
Well, not to beat a dead horse, but I think there is a big and significant different in desiring an adult woman dressed up as Bo Beep or a girl scout (or spiderman or a cat) and desiring an actual girl scout, a character in a nursery rhyme or spiderman or a cat. While you might find the source of the iconography disturbing or dislike it and can certainly criticize it, you cannot legitimately conflate those things.

What's the difference? One's legal and one's not, but I still think it's the same idea.

mollyzmoon
02-13-2008, 11:55 AM
^^I don't think it is. I think there's a very important premise missing...I think we can play-act without forgetting that it's the adult we desire. I don't think you can easily jump to the conclusion that dressing up means you're 'showing your true colours'.

I dress up in polka dots and school girl outfits sometimes. I don't think the men I dance for believe me to be a teenager though. So much of psychological desire is reduced to infantilization, isn't it?

I'm no expert, but it really seems that way. People calling their partners "baby" and "babe". This echoes childhood affection...May-September romances always creep me out too, but if we're all adults, isn't that what it comes down to? Wanting an adult who is imitating a teenager is not really reducible to wanting to fuck a kid. I think people have all sorts of primal instincts, very deepseated, that might be really 'sick'. But we sublimate, and that's how we roll as people. Isn't it? I know the underpinnings can be chilling though. I think it's horrifying how easily that sublimation unravels and allows for instances of rape, torture, and genocide. Like, all the time.

ViolaStrings
02-13-2008, 11:55 AM
im sorry that you think you need fake tits to be a woman. jenna isskinny, with low body fat comes little boobs. it doesnt make her any less "womenly"
people like you are the reason why so many girls get implants

OMG did I ever say anything about her breasts?! NO! I think the fact that she's dressing like a girl scout is the reason I can't see her as womanly and as portraying an inappropriate image.

Yes, people like me are the reason people get implants. I'm the entire reason. Just me. Sorry, everybody.

Jenny
02-13-2008, 12:01 PM
You cannot intuitively see the difference in say, desiring Cally while she is wearing a cat costume and crawling around all cat-like and drinking milk and maybe giving you an occasional purr and wanting to fuck your cat? Gosh, I thought this was fairly obvious.

In a nutshell one is engaging with an icon; the other is not. One is desiring a woman (because there isn't really similar iconography for men - at least not heterosexually) who is dressing up; the other is desiring a fictional character, a child, an animal or a male comic book character. The dressing up and the representation is a key element of what makes it an icon as opposed to just... a thing. What the men like is the icon; not the thing. The "thing" they like is the woman. Someone with a better background in semiotics or teaching semiotics might be able to explain it better.

ViolaStrings
02-13-2008, 12:02 PM
^^I don't think it is. I think there's a very important premise missing...I think we can play-act without forgetting that it's the adult we desire. I don't think you can easily jump to the conclusion that dressing up means you're 'showing your true colours'.

Let me make one thing clear, I'm not attacking the girls that it works for, because there is a big market out there for that. I'm creeped out by the men who are so turned on by a girl who appears so young that they create a market for it.

ViolaStrings
02-13-2008, 12:05 PM
Ok, let's move past costumes - there is a girl I work with who dresses like an adult, got breast implants, etc. She tries her hardest to look grown up, but she just looks like a young teenager playing dress up. Guys shit their pants over her, and she is constantly back in VIP with much older men. Men will specifically request "the youngest looking girl you have" and she gets sent over.

It's a body type, which of course no one can help and IS attractive. But why is the image of extreme youthfulness so enticing?

RebeccaSolidarity
02-13-2008, 12:06 PM
A few points

1. I think, even though it makes money, specifically child themed outfits are participating a culture that forces sexuality onto girls at a continually younger age. Even though it "works" for you and makes you money, have you ever stepped back and wondered WHY you're making money? I personally think it's disturbing and won't budge on that. I'm not condemning anyone who does it, it's just my personal opinion.

I have heard this from people before.

But they also typically say:


I think, even though it makes money, stripping is participating in a patriarchal culture which encourages the sexual objectification of all women through the male gaze. This creates an unsafe public environment in which men believe that all women are sexual objects while simultaneously demeaning those women who embrace sexuality and condemning those who do not. Even though it "works" for strippers and makes them money, have they ever stepped back and wondered WHY they are making money? I personally think it is disturbing and will not budge on that. I am not condemning anyone who does it, it is just my personal opinion.

Do I believe any of that?

Not really.

But the point that we all participate in a problematic and patriarchal culture regardless of how we may feel about what we do? That is true and it is absolutely unavoidable, because it is symptomatic of living in a patriarchal hegemonic system. So then, rather than being critical of those who participate because they have no other option than to participate (regardless of what we wear or what we do we all participate in one way or another) perhaps focus criticism on those who consciously attempt to maintain that system. You are intelligent (like many other women here) and it may do some real good if you instead focus your criticism on those who pay for this thing that disgusts you so much - the active participants in the system - rather than those who are simply filling a niche which the active participants find desirable.

Turning off radical feminist mode now....

:O

ViolaStrings
02-13-2008, 12:13 PM
Rebecca, I basically agree with you on all points. It's unavoidable.

velvet
02-13-2008, 12:13 PM
ahh jenny always the voice of reason. hehe. the facts ma'm and only the facts. j/p jenny.

to viola's point. i do understand what she is saying. many, many years ago when i was an 19 year old baby stripper. i used to play that underage thing to the hilt. back then NO ONE was doing school girl (shocking i know) i wore a short dress frilly socks and ribbons in my hair. trust me the guys i attracted probably were pedophiles. they all swore i was underage and i BANKED. it wasnt until years later that i realised what role i had really played then. i did look around 14 or 15 no doubt. tiny boobs, tiny butt and i weighed around 98 pounds.

i also notice that the truly old guys LOVE a barely legal girl. does that make them a pedophile, probably not but it is creepy none the less.

Jenny
02-13-2008, 12:13 PM
Um; I'm not sure I really feel like moving past the costumes since they were kind of a cornerstone of your original premise.

Why is the image of extreme youthfulness so enticing? is the exact right question. But I feel the need to separate it from the supposition that everyone "enticed" by it is a pedophile. The reason it is "enticing" could have a lot of explanations; personally I'm most convinced by a fairly dated explanation that it is a good image on which to sell things. Like if you go WAY back to 1990 and read "The Beauty Myth" Wolf discusses her teenaged friend's modeling career and the strange duality that involved this very young and inexperienced woman being portrayed as some kind of sex goddess; she talked about how women more than twice her age, who had experienced things sexually that her young friend had yet (to her knowledge) even start thinking about comparing herself to her and finding herself wanting; but she realizes even then that the men who look desiringly on this photograph are desiring her qua a model, not qua a young teenaged girl.

ETA - I feel I must make a point. True pedophiles are not in strip clubs in large numbers. They are at home masturbating to the underwear section of the sears catalogue.

Yoni
02-13-2008, 12:24 PM
But why is it hot?

I don't know.

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/7533/lizhurleybedazzledteachrm6.jpg

Jenny
02-13-2008, 12:29 PM
And oh - oh. This isn't a threadjack, I swear - it's totally related. Do you think it is coincidence that Britney Spears was all fine and cute and blah, blah, blah back when her sexuality was being exploited only to sell records, and whatever she controlled was essentially a public announcement to keep her legs crossed, but as soon as she started owning her own sexuality, like as an adult (as Janet Jackson said - "how long did you expect me to wait?") and started actually having and being interested in sex is when she became this public icon of white trash? Like so long as it was for our benefit and she privately kept the shop closed up it was good; the second she was like "Hey - my candy store. I want in" we all went nuts.

Kalligirl
02-13-2008, 12:35 PM
I think she slowlyearned the white trash thing. It was kinda like she was becoming (or trying to) her own person and she... well.. I personally think she has no taste and looks trashy (but i do feel very bad 4 her:( ). I don't think it had to do with her loss of virginity, but she really as overtly sexual. She went from one end of the spectrum to the next. Madonna wasn't hated on as much for her sexuality cause she never claimed to be anything she wasn't.


AS FOR THE SCHOOL GIRL SHIT/"Childlike" etc agrument

Some guys love petite women, and women that look 16. Oops, girls that look 16. I am one of them. 4'11" and my implants are barely B's but I am all woman and men love it. I mean, have you ever heard of the word spinner?

ViolaStrings
02-13-2008, 12:45 PM
And oh - oh. This isn't a threadjack, I swear - it's totally related. Do you think it is coincidence that Britney Spears was all fine and cute and blah, blah, blah back when her sexuality was being exploited only to sell records, and whatever she controlled was essentially a public announcement to keep her legs crossed, but as soon as she started owning her own sexuality, like as an adult (as Janet Jackson said - "how long did you expect me to wait?") and started actually having and being interested in sex is when she became this public icon of white trash? Like so long as it was for our benefit and she privately kept the shop closed up it was good; the second she was like "Hey - my candy store. I want in" we all went nuts.

You should read "IV" by Chuck Klosterman. There's a whole essay about exactly this!

Miss Jessica
02-13-2008, 12:49 PM
Believe it or not, it's the economy. I read a study awhile back that said when times are good and people are flush with cash, then men like curvy womanly adult bodies. But when men are having financial trouble, the economy isn't doing well, and men are feeling emasculated, then they seek solace in skinny, immature girls who make them feel like bigger, more impressive men. It makes sense.

That makes alot of sense. I'd put my money on that theory.