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Sophia_Starina
02-15-2008, 07:23 PM
When I'm at work, and the first 2 seconds of interaction pretty much determine whether or not I'll make a sale, I don't want any confusion.
"Who, me? Oh him..? Oh, you're talking to all of us! Hi. No, we're just having a beer, thanks"

Hunny... I'm assuming at work... (as in gentleMENS club) it would be very kosher to say guys to a group of... well... guys.

Sophia_Starina
02-15-2008, 07:26 PM
As for the feminist thing, I just think it's odd that in a world of phrases shifting

mail men ---> mail carriers

police man---> police officer

fireman---> fire fighter

....This particular phrase is gaining ground rather than losing it. Very odd.

scarlett_vancouver
02-15-2008, 07:27 PM
Hunny... I'm assuming at work... (as in gentleMENS club) it would be very kosher to say guys to a group of... well... guys.

Ya, should have been clearer- assume there's a broad or two at the table. ;)

Alaska
02-15-2008, 07:27 PM
Well, I'd rather be called unfeminist than gone country! :rotfl: Just kidding ya'll.

Sophia_Starina
02-15-2008, 07:29 PM
Ya, should have been clearer- assume there's a broad or two at the table. ;)

It wouldn't matter... I'm assuming the broads are co-workers and you aren't selling to them anywho.

For the sake of discussion, my gripes are with the phrase being used by people in the OTC world. Restaurants, the street, stores, etc.

scarlett_vancouver
02-15-2008, 07:35 PM
It wouldn't matter... I'm assuming the broads are co-workers and you aren't selling to them anywho.

For the sake of discussion, my gripes are with the phrase being used by people in the OTC world. Restaurants, the street, stores, etc.

No, the broads are customers, there with the guys. If you work in a magical place where all customers are men, spill it, bc I wanna go there, lol.

Ok, OTC, I dont even know. Eh, it bothers you, fine. Doesn't bother me, fine.

muhuwahaha
02-15-2008, 07:51 PM
I'm one of those guys that says "you guys"

"Hey ladies" sounds tacky and "hey girls" sounds girly.

UtahMike
02-15-2008, 09:54 PM
According to the Urban Dictionary:

Guy is the word used when a male is not quite a man but not still a boy. It can also be used to talk about a group of people of either gender.

Our language does suffer from a lack of gender neutral words. Heesh just never caught on.

Jenny
02-15-2008, 10:02 PM
Oh my gosh. I remember reading a comment on this once. A woman talked about how, upon greeting two of her woman friends as "guys", they asked her, nicely, not to do it again. I actually got very indignant about it - all "it's gender neutral" blah, blah, blah. She also got very indignant about it. Then she said she really had to consider what had made her so mad - so I thought I did too. Like from where comes this curious stubbornness regarding the gender neutral language? Like why is that so damn hard for us? And sorry Jay - but I don't buy "there can be no communication without domination of the male subject position."

I think you're right, actually, my occasional slip up notwithstanding. Male language is not gender neutral. It's male. Every second man is a woman, my butt.

TOO - she advocated for a rerise of "gals", btw.

I sometimes say "Ya'all" (although not with a southern accent). Sometimes I say "Hey there cats and kittens." I also might say "Hi, penguins". I like animals.

scarlett_vancouver
02-15-2008, 10:40 PM
Sometimes I say "Hey there cats and kittens."

"Hi girls", "hi kittens"...all much more offensive to me than "guys" when referring to groups of women, because they're diminuitive.

I mean, I know you're not intentionally saying "Hey there cats (MEN) and kittens (WOMEN)", but isn't it kinda implied that there's a separation, and that the inverse definitions are definitely not it? Just sayin'. ;)

Jenny
02-15-2008, 10:45 PM
"Hi girls", "hi kittens"...all much more offensive to me than "guys" when referring to groups of women, because they're diminuitive.

I mean, I know you're not intentionally saying "Hey there cats (MEN) and kittens (WOMEN)", but isn't it kinda implied that there's a separation, and that the inverse definitions are definitely not it? Just sayin'. ;)
Yes. Good point. Way to ruin my cute phrases.

Although... now that I think about it... why are the cats men? Now that I think about it, I'm not sure that the "cats" are the "men". I mean, if I were drawing gender distinctions wouldn't it be "hey there queens and toms"? (I just had to google the term for a female cat. I researched for you, Scarlett.) Maybe I'm just referring to the cat and kitten inside of all of us?

Dirty Ernie
02-15-2008, 11:20 PM
It would seem "guys" has lost it's gender specificity. I tend to use "you all".
I nearly started a thread a while back regarding the word "gal". I have a couple of friends who use it, and it pops up in SW on occasion and I have the same reaction. I cringe when I hear that word. I don't know if it's generational or regional, but it has never sat right with me. And , not necessarily from a pc perspective. I prefer, and use, the word "chick" and I like it!

scarlett_vancouver
02-15-2008, 11:29 PM
^Another baby animal. Jeez. At least say hen. ;)

Dirty Ernie
02-15-2008, 11:54 PM
Hen is gender specific. Chick is not. OK...that's stupid :D . Anyway, it's become part of my inner convo to the point it's lost it's connotative power. In the real world, I use it with the guys and familiar mixed company. I just like the whole 60's vibe it gives off...That's one groovy chick. I dunno, maybe too many Brady Bunch reruns.

jaizaine
02-16-2008, 12:18 AM
meh.

tomatoe tomato.

i use guys for groups of both girls and guys and mixed. ive neevr really thought about if people get offended by it, tbh, if they pick at a word that much, its easier not to bother with them at all.lol.

Yep. Can think of much worse things to be called than guys.

cutey5032
02-16-2008, 02:22 AM
deleted

britt244
02-16-2008, 02:25 AM
Yep. Can think of much worse things to be called than guys.

same here.

Darcy Foxx
02-16-2008, 02:26 AM
i use 'guys' all the time. but me and my best girlfriend also call each other 'dude' and 'bro'. i'm such a boy sometimes.

Jay Zeno
02-16-2008, 07:10 AM
And sorry Jay - but I don't buy "there can be no communication without domination of the male subject position."
?????????????????????????????????

I don't remember saying that. I don't remember believing it.

Will
02-16-2008, 07:23 AM
I really.... really... hate it when mixed company is referred to as "guys".

I am not, nor have I ever been a guy....

I have even seen groups of women called "guys".

Hi guys... how are you guys doing.... what's new with you guys?

Not a guy... and I do correct people who make that blunder... call me crazy but I think it's pretty damn rude.

Then what is the alternative you would prefer?

PhillyDancer1982
02-16-2008, 11:16 AM
It is a linguistic problem.

How would you rather address a mixed group? "Ladies and gentlemen"? This sounds a bit old-fashioned and even, gasp, ironic. "Peoples"? That's gramatically incorrect. "Gang"? "Okay, gang. I have to get going..." Better?

Yes. And I tend to use the word "guys" in a very unisex way, even for groups that do not contain any males at all. Perhaps I'm not being politically correct though...I don't do it to be offended, I just do it out of habit.

I think the mixed-company "guys" part can, however, be traced back to other languages' grammar rules. In Spanish, a boy is a "muchacho"(plural = "muchachos"); a girl is a "muchacha"(plural = "muchachas"). But for a group of mixed genders, the male form takes dominance, hence a group of mixed genders is called "muchachos." This goes back to the times when guys were viewed as more dominant and prominent, and women were viewed as "second class citizens" to men. Nowadays, thankfully we are a lot closer to gender equality in society, but the grammar rules still stay the same due to habit/longstanding use I guess.

PhillyDancer1982
02-16-2008, 11:19 AM
I really.... really... hate it when mixed company is referred to as "guys".

I am not, nor have I ever been a guy....

I have even seen groups of women called "guys".

Hi guys... how are you guys doing.... what's new with you guys?

Not a guy... and I do correct people who make that blunder... call me crazy but I think it's pretty damn rude.

I actually have a very progressive, feminist friend named "June" who feels the same way and frequently tells me this. LOL she said that one of these days when she has to address a group of girls with maybe 1 or 2 guys in the bunch, she will refer to them all as "girls" or another name that implies "all females," because if society can refer to a group of mixed company by the male precedence(e.g., calling a group of guys and girls "muchachos), then how is it wrong for her to do the same thing but call them by the female precedence? Haha.

Jenny
02-16-2008, 11:35 AM
?????????????????????????????????

I don't remember saying that. I don't remember believing it.I was referring to this:

If we stopped using every word that someone had a problem with, we'd be mute. This is a very specific and very articulable issue; I cannot believe that we'd all be mute if the male subject position was displaced; if your comment had nothing to do with the necessity of the male subject position to communication, I kind of wonder why you posted in a thread about the male subject position.

Yekhefah
02-16-2008, 11:38 AM
It's good to be Southern. The English language really needs an obvious plural form of "you," and we have it in the word "y'all." So y'all need to start using it! :D

Jay Zeno
02-16-2008, 12:17 PM
I was referring to this:
This is a very specific and very articulable issue; I cannot believe that we'd all be mute if the male subject position was displaced; if your comment had nothing to do with the necessity of the male subject position to communication, I kind of wonder why you posted in a thread about the male subject position.I didn't have gender in mind at all when I made the comment. I don't believe male gender word forms are all that necessary for communication in English, unless you're addressing male gender issues. Then they're handy.

Jenny
02-16-2008, 12:31 PM
I didn't have gender in mind at all when I made the comment. I don't believe male gender word forms are all that necessary for communication in English, unless you're addressing male gender issues. Then they're handy.
So... it was just a complete non sequitor?

Jay Zeno
02-16-2008, 12:35 PM
No, it was a passing response to the general theme of "I don't like that word" as opposed to the specific theme of "it's a male-oriented word."

Jenny
02-16-2008, 12:38 PM
Considering that the reason she didn't like that word is BECAUSE it is a male oriented word (I mean, you didn't really think she was saying she disliked the sounds of long i's did you?) I'm not sure that distinction is reasonable. It seemed to me like you were taking this discrete issue and minimizing it by rolling it in with "all words that all people, either reasonably or unreasonably, might not like" and then saying "well there is nothing we can do about all of that." At any rate, that is what I was responding to - if that wasn't what you were doing - super.

Jay Zeno
02-16-2008, 12:44 PM
It's super, then. :)

Sophia_Starina
02-16-2008, 01:06 PM
I actually have a very progressive, feminist friend named "June" who feels the same way and frequently tells me this. LOL she said that one of these days when she has to address a group of girls with maybe 1 or 2 guys in the bunch, she will refer to them all as "girls" or another name that implies "all females," because if society can refer to a group of mixed company by the male precedence(e.g., calling a group of guys and girls "muchachos), then how is it wrong for her to do the same thing but call them by the female precedence? Haha.


:D Yeah.... seriously. I think the boys need a taste of their own medicine.

DJ Machismo
02-16-2008, 01:09 PM
meh.

tomatoe tomato.

i use guys for groups of both girls and guys and mixed. ive neevr really thought about if people get offended by it, tbh, if they pick at a word that much, its easier not to bother with them at all.lol.

Pretty much how I feel. There are so many bigger things in this life to get worked up over.

Sophia_Starina
02-16-2008, 01:16 PM
Pretty much how I feel. There are so many bigger things in this life to get worked up over.

Okay there... Mr. Machismo.... somehow I'm not surprised.

PrettyCurlieQ
02-16-2008, 01:18 PM
Mabye it's just common vernacular and you shouldn't take it personally. :shrug:

hardkandee
02-16-2008, 01:19 PM
As for the feminist thing, I just think it's odd that in a world of phrases shifting

mail men ---> mail carriers

police man---> police officer

fireman---> fire fighter

....This particular phrase is gaining ground rather than losing it. Very odd.


Yet, it can also happen in the other direction.
Now actresses have become actors. :shrug:

Isn't better to not recognize gender diffrences as a way of indicating everyone is on the same level?

Sophia_Starina
02-16-2008, 01:21 PM
Mabye it's just common vernacular and you shouldn't take it personally. :shrug:

You are so right. I am just miffed that it has become so widely accepted.

English is not my first language, and I guess that particular phrase always raised red flags in my mind. I would always think "How can this be right????"

Jenny
02-16-2008, 01:25 PM
Yet, it can also happen in the other direction.
Now actresses have become actors. :shrug:

Isn't better to not recognize gender diffrences as a way of indicating everyone is on the same level?
Is everyone "on the same level" when women are, essentially, honourary men? Policemen, firemen etc. Are we all on the same level when the universal male subject position is adopted as "normal", "common vernacular" and "no big deal" as opposed to a brand of hegemony? I'm not sure we are.

I would suggest that without the female auxiliary to "actor", the word "actor" becomes pretty gender neutral in the English language (or so says my intuition; anyone with a better background please correct me); I don't think you have the same effect with "police man".

Again, I ask - why the investment in maintaining the male gender as representing gender neutrality? I mean - it ISN'T neutral. What exactly makes us so uncomfortable about acknowledging that?

PrettyCurlieQ
02-16-2008, 01:26 PM
Political correctness is way overrated.

Sophia_Starina
02-16-2008, 01:26 PM
Jenny... :worship:

Sophia_Starina
02-16-2008, 01:29 PM
Political correctness is way overrated.

I don't quite understand.... but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

For me it goes beyond the political. Being referred to by some male moniker WEIRDS me out. It weirds me out as it would for a group of people (male & female) to all be referred to as "girls" or "gals". The men would get all huffy and pissed yet I am not allowed to do the same.

Even women on this board are shrugging it off like it's no big deal.

If the tables were turned......

PrettyCurlieQ
02-16-2008, 01:36 PM
You're absolutely right. If guys were called girls they'd have a fit. The thing is, if generations upon generations of people grow accustomed to a way of speaking, it's gonna be hell to change it. Of course you can always do your part to move along the evolution of human speech, but it really is trivial. Being called a guy doesn't make you one.

In a lot of languages there are words to describe, say objects, as male or female. For example, in my boyfriend's language, boat is a male word. In English, I've heard people refer to boats as 'she' or 'her'. It doesn't make the boat male or female, it's just the way people talk.

Sophia_Starina
02-16-2008, 01:40 PM
I've heard people refer to boats as 'she' or 'her'. It doesn't make the boat male or female, it's just the way people talk.


Boats don't have feelings... I do. :'(

Paris
02-16-2008, 01:41 PM
Hmmm. "Gals" makes me squirm so much more than "guys".

"Gals" is used a lot in the Pacific Northwest. I like it better than "girls".

PrettyCurlieQ
02-16-2008, 01:42 PM
Boats don't have feelings... I do. :'(
But it's not intended to offend you, that's just how people talk!

Jenny
02-16-2008, 01:51 PM
Political correctness is way overrated.I don't think it is. I think it is, fundamentally, a way of being non-offensive. I can't agree that not being offensive is overrated. I also am of the school that words form thought; witness what you say below - like there is a heavy and serious investment in words. It is not "trivial". If it was, it would be easy to change. Why do you think people resent "political correctness"? It is not because it is difficult to say "African American", "Asian" or "Pakistani" instead of one of the myriad of terms that were used before; it is not because it is difficult to say "Native American" or "Aboriginal" instead of "Indian"; it is certainly not because it is difficult to say "people" or "humankind" rather than "mankind".


You're absolutely right. If guys were called girls they'd have a fit. The thing is, if generations upon generations of people grow accustomed to a way of speaking, it's gonna be hell to change it. Of course you can always do your part to move along the evolution of human speech, but it really is trivial. Being called a guy doesn't make you one.
Being called a cow doesn't make me one either. But, you know, still. Seriously - why is it so hard to change? Look at all the new words and new ways of speaking and thinking that come about purely normally - I mean, you can say "I'll text you" instead of "I'll call you" and the change isn't difficult for anyone; nobody is sitting around moaning that they can't possibly remember to say "text" instead of "call". Nobody feels the need to refer to cds or mp3s as "records" because people had been doing it for years. We have a problem, it seems, making a change in a fairly precise area; it is only in the area of challenging language hegemony that "new words" become so onerous. I tend to think there is a reason for that.


In a lot of languages there are words to describe, say objects, as male or female. For example, in my boyfriend's language, boat is a male word. In English, I've heard people refer to boats as 'she' or 'her'. It doesn't make the boat male or female, it's just the way people talk.
Yes. Many languages gender all nouns. I have no idea what that means - someone with a background in languages could probably tell us. We don't. And this is not an issue of gendering a genderless noun, if you know what I mean by that. We are re-gendering actual women, not genderless objects.

Jay Zeno
02-16-2008, 02:20 PM
Some of us just float with the tide.

If women we know say, "You guys," when referring to a mixed gender group, we go with that without a second thought.

If a woman is chairing a meeting and is referred to as "Madame Chairman" (as opposed to Chairwoman or Chairperson), we don't give it a thought about the gender dissection of the term, unless one were to protest the phrase (and one never has, in my presence). Nor would we blink if she were referred to as "Chairwoman," "Chairperson," or simply, "Chair."

And indeed, if our female/feminine/girl/gal/woman/distaff friends were to say, "Oh, you're just one of the girls," we wouldn't take offense or feel belittled. We'd feel included.

Sophia has every right in the world to say this bugs her. If I meet Sophia and happen to remember this thread, I'll keep that in mind and be mindful of one more potential faux pas in my life when talking to her. But when my female teammates, bosses, employees, colleagues, family members, friends, and chance acquaintances are heard saying, "you guys" in a generic sense, I'm not too much worried about using the term that way in my everyday life.

sol_de_pr2
02-16-2008, 02:26 PM
Well, I wouldn't want to be in a mixed group and have someone say "How are you girls" ;D

Bridgette
02-16-2008, 02:31 PM
In Latin-based languages all mixed groups are referred to in the male form. I don't see it as rude - the word "guys" in English has evolved to simply refer to a group of people in context. No big deal.

Jay Zeno
02-16-2008, 02:37 PM
Well, I wouldn't want to be in a mixed group and have someone say "How are you girls" ;D
On the other hand, I've written articles about groups of which I've been a part that are predominantly women. In using examples, I might say, "She did this," or that, because it's more reflective of the group. I've never gotten a complaint, except from one male, and I didn't find his complaint to be valid.

hardkandee
02-16-2008, 03:32 PM
Is everyone "on the same level" when women are, essentially, honourary men? Policemen, firemen etc. Are we all on the same level when the universal male subject position is adopted as "normal", "common vernacular" and "no big deal" as opposed to a brand of hegemony? I'm not sure we are.

I'm sorry, I wasn't referring to the policemen/firemen thing in my comment on level. Just the use of "guys" as all encompassing.

Sure, language (more so parole than langue) is determined by hegemony. I cannot think of any language that does not take on the male you plural pronoun when it is a group of people that includes at least one male.

English being as gender neutral as it is, I believe, leads native English-speakers to be more sensitive to gender assignment.

PrettyCurlieQ
02-16-2008, 04:05 PM
Or maybe YOU GUYS are taking something small and meaningless and turning it into a huge deal. It's a non-issue IMHO, but if you feel so offended by something, correct people when they say it instead of crying about being called masculine.