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BrunetteGoddess
02-21-2008, 10:10 AM
Propaganda......

Melonie
02-21-2008, 10:14 AM
So its seems appear you are saying that even though the US economy is growing... despite the problems its still better than Europes?

Not to worry. If Obama or Hilary win, America's personal and corporate tax rates will soon be just as high as those in Europe, and American economic growth will also turn negative.

BrunetteGoddess
02-21-2008, 10:30 AM
For eff's sake. I have lived in Europe, and might go there again, so I know what taxes are. R and I need to.

If you're actually looking at the taxes in comparison, they aren't much different at all. MAYBE 1% difference. Want to know the difference? European taxpayers actually get something for their hard earned taxdollars. And I'm not talking as a whole only, but individually. They get retirement, great unemployment, more vacation time., socialized health care. And then there are things like better roads.

I for one would be happy to pay the small increase in taxes when I'm getting something for it. I will also say that Europeans are living quite well and aren't all rich, so it must not be that bad. And they're happier people too. I just don't buy the whole "It's so bad, repressed, and expensive".

Lysondra
02-21-2008, 10:34 AM
For eff's sake. I have lived in Europe, and might go there again, so I know what taxes are. R and I need to.

If you're actually looking at the taxes in comparison, they aren't much different at all. MAYBE 1% difference. Want to know the difference? European taxpayers actually get something for their hard earned taxdollars. And I'm not talking as a whole only, but individually. They get retirement, great unemployment, more vacation time., socialized health care. And then there are things like better roads.

I for one would be happy to pay the small increase in taxes when I'm getting something for it. I will also say that Europeans are living quite well and aren't all rich, so it must not be that bad. And they're happier people too. I just don't buy the whole "It's so bad, repressed, and expensive".

I feel the same way. I actually LIKE paying my taxes because I'm so happy to see it working. Why, they fixed my main gripe about the road off the bridge about a month ago that I was getting annoyed with..and damned if I haven't used that free heathcare... so fuck it! More taxes it is!

leilanicandy
02-21-2008, 11:36 AM
For eff's sake. I have lived in Europe, and might go there again, so I know what taxes are. R and I need to.

If you're actually looking at the taxes in comparison, they aren't much different at all. MAYBE 1% difference. Want to know the difference? European taxpayers actually get something for their hard earned taxdollars. And I'm not talking as a whole only, but individually. They get retirement, great unemployment, more vacation time., socialized health care. And then there are things like better roads.

I for one would be happy to pay the small increase in taxes when I'm getting something for it. I will also say that Europeans are living quite well and aren't all rich, so it must not be that bad. And they're happier people too. I just don't buy the whole "It's so bad, repressed, and expensive".


I agree! They get more for thier money! They take care of there own! Brunette what part of europe did you live in! PM me we should talk! I might go there myself! There education system is so much better also!

Eric Stoner
02-21-2008, 12:09 PM
For eff's sake. I have lived in Europe, and might go there again, so I know what taxes are. R and I need to.

If you're actually looking at the taxes in comparison, they aren't much different at all. MAYBE 1% difference. Want to know the difference? European taxpayers actually get something for their hard earned taxdollars. And I'm not talking as a whole only, but individually. They get retirement, great unemployment, more vacation time., socialized health care. And then there are things like better roads.

I for one would be happy to pay the small increase in taxes when I'm getting something for it. I will also say that Europeans are living quite well and aren't all rich, so it must not be that bad. And they're happier people too. I just don't buy the whole "It's so bad, repressed, and expensive".

For one thing, they don't have our Defense Budget. They tax EVERYTHING that's not nailed down at rates ranging from 50% to a 90% marginal rate. Most have strong national governments and don't have to worry about state and local as we do. They have more homogenous populations ( for the most part ) and their educational systems teach everyone in the native language. In the U.S. we try top educate kids who speak somewhere around 100 different languages.

Lysondra
02-21-2008, 12:11 PM
For one thing, they don't have our Defense Budget. They tax EVERYTHING that's not nailed down at rates ranging from 50% to a 90% marginal rate. Most have strong national governments and don't have to worry about state and local as we do. They have more homogenous populations ( for the most part ) and their educational systems teach everyone in the native language. In the U.S. we try top educate kids who speak somewhere around 100 different languages.

LOL, even AMERICA doesn't have it's defense budget.

Eric Stoner
02-21-2008, 12:55 PM
LOL, even AMERICA doesn't have it's defense budget.

Huh ? It's bigger than ALL of Europe's COMBINED !

jester214
02-21-2008, 02:27 PM
Huh ? It's bigger than ALL of Europe's COMBINED !

Not sure, but I think Lysondra meant we can't afford what our defense budget is..

There are also points to be argued about both the size of our country and our population...

jester214
02-21-2008, 02:30 PM
Not that I know of we don't. Well, not me personally, I think allowing more immigration would be a very positive thing for both this country and the immigrants, assuming certain careful screening procedures remained in place (obvious things like excluding violent criminals, carriers of certain types of infectious diseases and those who won't be likely to support themselves by working, with the exception of refugees). But both public policy and the views of the average xenophobic street yobbo suggests that the vast Australian majority is not especially desirous of immigrants at all. Particularly not if they come in funny colours >:( .

Well thats what I thought... But according to Lysondra and afew others I'm wrong... Just read the end of the first page and most of the second...

Melonie
02-21-2008, 03:37 PM
the US will spend $623 billion on military / defense in 2008, compared to $266 billion for all of the EU (which has just about the same population). They don't NEED to spend their own money to provide for their own defense, since the US still has troops stationed in the UK, in Germany, and in other EU countries.

There are also a huge difference in taxation policy between the US and the EU. In America, people earning $25k a year or less pay no income tax at all, and people earning $50k a year or less pay perhaps a 5% income tax plus a 7% SSI tax plus an average 5% sales tax. In comparison, EU workers earning the equivalent of $25k per year pay a 10% minimum tax rate ... plus a 15% VAT ... plus an average 5% sales tax. In other words, whereas the lower earning 50% of Americans pay at most a 16% total tax rate, in the EU the lower earning 50% of workers pay closer to a 30% total tax rate.

Another major difference is the availability of 'tax havens' in Lichtenstein, Switzerland, Monaco, the Channel Islands etc. such that 'middle class' Europeans can avoid taxes almost as easily as uber-rich Europeans. Middle class Americans have no similar 'tax havens' within easy driving distance, such that only uber-rich Americans can afford to take advantage of the European 'tax havens'. The point of course is that when France says that the tax rate on the equivalent of $75k per year will be 33%, your average Frenchman can easily pop over to Lichtenstein or Switzerland and 'hide' some of their earnings from the tax man. But when America says that the tax rate on $75k per year will be 25%, your average American can't afford to travel to Lichtenstein or Switzerland to 'hide' any of their money from the IRS.

Bottom line is that EU goverments collect far more tax revenue from lower income workers than the US does. This allows them to provide better social welfare benefits for lower income workers because the EU workers are paying taxes to fund at least a part of their own benefits ... whereas in the USA the social welfare benefits for lower income workers are almost entirely funded by imposing higher tax rates on the 'middle class' and then transferring that wealth to the American 'poor'.

I would also point out that many EU countries now have a rapidly growing problem of non-working residents ... who are typically ex-colonials. As such the EU countries' social welfare burden, which was traditionally far lower than Americas in terms of the percentage of non-working benefit recipients versus total tax revenues, is now rapidly growing. The EU countries are responding to this problem by severely limiting additional immigration, as well as by attempting to deport non-working residents (and their family members in some cases) who are already living in the country legally. See . If America pursued this matter with equal energy and attempted to deport our estimated 12 million illegal residents, there would be FAR more federal, state and local tax money to go around !

Additionally, EU countries provide a very easy mechanism for high earning residents to change their own income tax rate via relocation. Americans can do this to a limited degree by moving from one state to another to lower their state tax rate, but Americans cannot avoid US federal income taxes even if they DO move out of the country unless they are able to actually obtain citizenship in a second country, renounce their US citizenship, and never return to the USA. However, with US income tax rates slated to rise no matter what, and slated to rise a lot if Obama or Hilary are elected, there is now a booming business of 'selling citizenship' to American ex-patriates by countries such as Costa Rica, Panama etc.

Lastly, the corporate tax rates in the EU are far lower than in America ... at least for American companies who are not the recipients of gov't subsidies / tax breaks. And just like European individual incomes, European corporations can also very easily 'hide' money from the tax man in the same European 'tax haven' countries and/or base their official operations in 'tax haven' countries to take advantage of extremely low tax rates.

BrunetteGoddess
02-21-2008, 04:35 PM
I'm sorry, but US and "budget" is just a huge joke.

jester214
02-21-2008, 04:39 PM
I'm sorry, but US and "budget" is just a huge joke.

What makes you say that?

BrunetteGoddess
02-21-2008, 04:40 PM
If we were really budgeting worth a damn, would we be in such debt? Somehow I don't think so.

jester214
02-21-2008, 04:43 PM
If we were really budgeting worth a damn, would we be in such debt? Somehow I don't think so.

Ha... We've never budgeted worth a damn, even in the late 90's the Gov. just caught up with a 10 year economic boom.

But yeah, you balance the budget and we'll talk.

Lysondra
02-21-2008, 05:18 PM
Huh ? It's bigger than ALL of Europe's COMBINED !

I was making a joke.

Lysondra
02-21-2008, 05:19 PM
Not sure, but I think Lysondra meant we can't afford what our defense budget is..

There are also points to be argued about both the size of our country and our population...

Yes, that's what I was saying.

Lysondra
02-21-2008, 05:27 PM
Please what country doesn't have a deficit?

Bailing out and aiding other countries has contributed A LOT to the current US deficit as well as extravagant social spending.

It's easier for other countries to "budget" cuz if they fall into crisis, usually the US will help bail them out.

Australia just celebrated it's one year anniversary of not having a deficit. ;D

jester214
02-21-2008, 06:12 PM
Australia just celebrated it's one year anniversary of not having a deficit. ;D

Yeah, the US did that for a few years... It won't last, it can't, for anyone...

jester214
02-21-2008, 06:13 PM
It's amazing the racist remarks in Australia I've heard towards other races. Today, I swear, I heard the ACTUAL FUCKING WORDS, "That woman has SOME redeeming qualities. At least she hates Abbos!"

Like...wtf....

Yeah, I hear that kind of thing a lot when I'm down there... People seem really open about it too...

flickad
02-21-2008, 09:10 PM
It's amazing the racist remarks in Australia I've heard towards other races. Today, I swear, I heard the ACTUAL FUCKING WORDS, "That woman has SOME redeeming qualities. At least she hates Abbos!"

Like...wtf....

Makes me ashamed of my country :/.

flickad
02-21-2008, 09:12 PM
Well thats what I thought... But according to Lysondra and afew others I'm wrong... Just read the end of the first page and most of the second...

I've read this whole damn thread, and what I said appeared to be pretty damned similar to what Lysondra said first.

jester214
02-21-2008, 10:55 PM
I've read this whole damn thread, and what I said appeared to be pretty damned similar to what Lysondra said first.

sigh... I didn't mean anything negative by it... people are so edgy lately....

The reason I said that was I thought you might have just caught the last couple of posts... I also missed one of Lysondra's posts, and I think missread another...

god forgive me for making a mistake...

jester214
02-21-2008, 11:00 PM
And I still stand by with Eric in that I think Aussie is the easiest of the 4 that were named to get into...

France is having a terrible time with the immigrants it already has, so I doubt there open for more...

Germany I know is hard to get into because I have had friends that tried...
Same for Italy...

Why would Aussie be easier?? Because the Gov. itself announced (in recent years) that almost 25% of its population wasn't born in Australia...

flickad
02-21-2008, 11:49 PM
sigh... I didn't mean anything negative by it... people are so edgy lately....

The reason I said that was I thought you might have just caught the last couple of posts... I also missed one of Lysondra's posts, and I think missread another...

god forgive me for making a mistake...

I think you've misread me, too- I'm not at all edgy about this issue, I was just correcting you. I have no issue with the fact that you missed a post- everyone's human and it can be hard to ascertain insinuations in the absence of expression and tone.

I do have a habit of saying 'damned' and 'fuck' a lot, which might have been what made you think I was offended by your post. That's a cultural thing, I don't mean anything by it. Australians swear habitually far more than Americans do.

flickad
02-21-2008, 11:55 PM
And I still stand by with Eric in that I think Aussie is the easiest of the 4 that were named to get into...

France is having a terrible time with the immigrants it already has, so I doubt there open for more...

Germany I know is hard to get into because I have had friends that tried...
Same for Italy...

Why would Aussie be easier?? Because the Gov. itself announced (in recent years) that almost 25% of its population wasn't born in Australia...

I'd say that similar percentages in the countries you named weren't born there. Immigration policy gets tighter all the time, and much of that 25% would not necessarily be recent arrivals. Hell, none of my grandparents were born here, but they all arrived in the 1950's.

jester214
02-22-2008, 12:00 AM
I'd say that similar percentages in the countries you named weren't born there. Immigration policy gets tighter all the time, and much of that 25% would not necessarily be recent arrivals. Hell, none of my grandparents were born here, but they all arrived in the 1950's.

I have no idea about Italy... I am confident France's is nowhere near that high... and I'm positive Germany's is not.

25% is a lot.

flickad
02-22-2008, 12:05 AM
I have no idea about Italy... I am confident France's is nowhere near that high... and I'm positive Germany's is not.

25% is a lot.

Maybe it's partly because we're a relatively new country. It's only been a little over 200 years since white settlement, so it seems natural that more of our populace would be newcomers than in a more established nation.

Lysondra
02-22-2008, 04:53 AM
And I still stand by with Eric in that I think Aussie is the easiest of the 4 that were named to get into...

France is having a terrible time with the immigrants it already has, so I doubt there open for more...

Germany I know is hard to get into because I have had friends that tried...
Same for Italy...

Why would Aussie be easier?? Because the Gov. itself announced (in recent years) that almost 25% of its population wasn't born in Australia...

You haven't accounted for the fact not 100% of the 25% migrants are not American. It is MUCH harder to migrate as an American than a European, which are much more common.

flickad
02-22-2008, 06:15 AM
^

I wonder why that is?

Lysondra
02-22-2008, 06:50 AM
^

I wonder why that is?

Commonwealth. You didn't say 'fuck off' to the Queen.

minnow
02-22-2008, 08:31 AM
In todays global economy, there are several cases of Americans working & living overseas for a period of time, but doing so under a "corporate umbrella". Then, too, there are skilled professionals working for foreign company on a 1-3 yr. "renewable contract" basis, but still maintaining US ties.
I don't personally know anyone who has chucked their US citizenship, and moved lock, stock, and barrel to work for foreign company, open a "roo burger franchise " in Australia, or the like. (except maybe well publicized big black sumo wrestler of several yrs ago.....)

jester214
02-22-2008, 08:58 AM
You haven't accounted for the fact not 100% of the 25% migrants are not American. It is MUCH harder to migrate as an American than a European, which are much more common.

I'm not sure what you're saying here?

flickad
02-22-2008, 03:26 PM
Commonwealth. You didn't say 'fuck off' to the Queen.

Suspected as much with Britain, but not with other parts of Europe.

Lysondra
02-22-2008, 06:05 PM
I'm not sure what you're saying here?

I'm saying that even though you're saying Australia is easier to imigrate to for the American's leaving because Australia WANTS immigrants doesn't make it easier. YES, Australia does have more immigrants but NO, they are not majority American. Americans have a MUCH harder time going to Australia because they screwed the Commonwealth (Boston Tea Party? Did NOTHING for ya!) with a rusty spoon. So saying it's easier to immigrate to because they have more immigrants is not true for Americans.

Mastridonicus
02-22-2008, 06:47 PM
You can count me in.

If the next legislation doesn't fix things economically...

Well the thought has more than crossed our minds.

jester214
02-22-2008, 11:22 PM
I'm saying that even though you're saying Australia is easier to imigrate to for the American's leaving because Australia WANTS immigrants doesn't make it easier. YES, Australia does have more immigrants but NO, they are not majority American. Americans have a MUCH harder time going to Australia because they screwed the Commonwealth (Boston Tea Party? Did NOTHING for ya!) with a rusty spoon. So saying it's easier to immigrate to because they have more immigrants is not true for Americans.

# of Italian Immigrants from U.S. in 1996 - Between 10K and 50K
Italian Population in 2006 - Just shy of 60 Million

# of French Immigrants from U.S. in 1996 - Between 10K and 50K
French Population as of 2008 - Just shy of 62 Million

# of German Immigrants from U.S. in 1996 - Between 50K and 100K
German Population as of 2007 - Just over 82 Million

# of Australian Immigrants from U.S. in 2006 - 64,832
Australian Population as of 2008 - Just over 21 Million

Germany, a country with almost 4 times the population of Australia, is the only country of the 4 that possibly has more immigrants from the U.S.

Lysondra
02-22-2008, 11:27 PM
More immigrants does not make 'easier', is what I'm saying. And from the numbers I'm seeing, Germany is winning...and nobody but Australia seems to count exactly.

Yekhefah
02-22-2008, 11:43 PM
There's so many people from the good ol' Us of A that leave and go, "Well fuck, I don't wanna go home!" The only reason they end up back there is because they have to, not want to.

:wave:

Not a day goes by that I don't wish I'd stayed in Australia. If I could move back, I'd be on that plane so fast they wouldn't have time to confiscate my nail clippers.

Lysondra
02-22-2008, 11:45 PM
:wave:

Not a day goes by that I don't wish I'd stayed in Australia. If I could move back, I'd be on that plane so fast they wouldn't have time to confiscate my nail clippers.

Hahaha, awesome. Like I said... if you ever wanna visit I have a spare bedroom. The only price is that you sometimes walk around with no shirt. :) (and in that wig... orororor...schoolgirl clothes...omgomg...Yekkie is so fucking hot as a redhead)

jester214
02-22-2008, 11:46 PM
I could not find a clear number for Germany, so who knows. Also Germany has 4 times the population Australia has...

As far as I'm concerned, the numbers make it pretty obvious... 25% of Australia's population is made up of immigrants, and they have more immigrants from America than any of the 4 but POSSIBLY Germany, a country that is so much bigger than Australia and the other two are also much larger than Australia.

jester214
02-22-2008, 11:47 PM
Hey, once this massive problem gets resolved could you guys do the world a favor and answer the age old question of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? ::)

What choir of angel? ;D

minnow
02-23-2008, 08:12 AM
More immigrants does not make 'easier', is what I'm saying. And from the numbers I'm seeing, Germany is winning...and nobody but Australia seems to count exactly.

Maybe the fact that English is the predominant language in Australia is the thing that makes Australia immigration "easy" for Americans.:P

Lysondra
02-23-2008, 06:04 PM
Affggg, I'm trying to figure out how I missed that! Of course all the other countries named aren't English speaking.

GoldCoastGirl
02-24-2008, 01:47 AM
Have we forgotten the saying here in Aust about how we have the biggest greek populance outside of Greece :laughing: ! A whole section in Melbourne CBD is devoted to the Greek culture. Then there is the ChinaTowns across the nation... we have plenty of immigrants that aren't american tho' it is easier for people from commonwealth countries to immigrate here.

i don't know anything tho' i will allow lysondra to speak as she obviously knows since she is going thru the who she-bang about immigrating from usa to australia... and i'm aussie born.

GoldCoastGirl
02-24-2008, 01:49 AM
Have we forgotten the saying here in Aust about how we have the biggest greek populance outside of Greece :laughing: ! A whole section in Melbourne CBD is devoted to the Greek culture. Then there is the ChinaTowns across the nation... we have plenty of immigrants that aren't american tho' it is easier for people from commonwealth countries to immigrate here.

i don't know anything tho' i will allow lysondra to speak as she obviously knows since she is going thru the who she-bang about immigrating from usa to australia... and i'm aussie born.

GoldCoastGirl
02-24-2008, 01:50 AM
Have we forgotten the saying here in Aust about how we have the biggest greek populance outside of Greece :laughing: ! A whole section in Melbourne CBD is devoted to the Greek culture. Then there is the ChinaTowns across the nation... we have plenty of immigrants that aren't american tho' it is easier for people from commonwealth countries to immigrate here.

i don't know anything tho' i will allow lysondra to speak as she obviously knows since she is going thru the who she-bang about immigrating from usa to australia... and i'm aussie born.

Lysondra
02-24-2008, 05:34 AM
Well hard to forget when you tell us three time. ;) Teasing.

Madcap
02-24-2008, 05:36 AM
4th time's a charm!