View Full Version : Is it racist to decry how a black person speaks?
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doc-catfish
03-03-2008, 04:45 PM
There's a reason that a lot of companies put their call centers in the Midwest. We have a "neutral" dialect here, therefore our voices are apparently easiest on everybody's ears.
Even a number of companies who outsourced such work to South Asian countries have brought it back to the US because a lot of their customers got frustrated dealing with someone from India or Pakistan over the telephone. I mean, could that be considered racist?
http://www.crm-daily.com/story.xhtml?story_id=57397
In the case of the tour guide, I have a number of Southern relatives, and would have probably heard so much of the local drawl by the time that I got to her that I wouldn't bat an eye to it. I suppose to someone who just got off the plane from Cali or the Northeast, it would be a bit more frustrating.
i.breathe.in
03-03-2008, 04:47 PM
MODS PLEASE DO NOT TAMPER WITH THIS THREAD
Everything is under control. Nobody is offended.
Let us play and get the discussion moving
im offended your not naked in your youtube video in a bed with silk sheets and singing me love songs.
ive never had a sw crush till now haha.
PaigeDWinter
03-03-2008, 04:47 PM
Hur dur dur. This thread doesn't deserve any real words anymore. So Imma make up a few.
Roplemax. Jurgenstile. Memmonophone.
All Good Things
03-03-2008, 04:49 PM
^ OK, Sh0t, come clean. Is that you in the video?
All Good Things
03-03-2008, 04:52 PM
^ Now that wasn't so painful, was it? :)
xdamage
03-03-2008, 04:55 PM
Here is the scoop for me -
When it comes to friends, and people I care about, I don't care if their grammar or spelling is perfect; I don't care about dialect; I don't care about style; I don't care about perfect agreement over terminology, so long as I understand what is being communicated. This is simple to me. People create languages for the purpose of communicating, and languages are constantly being re-invented. I don't give a damn about "proper" English in this regard. In fact I expect it to constantly change, constantly evolve. I am not a slave to language - rather it is a tool to serve me/us.
When it comes to a business setting, I do care to a degree because the reality is that our customers care, and I am in favor of the basic notion that a business should do what it can, including little things like using common grammar and spelling, if it improves our income. I also care to the degree that it interferes with our productivity.
Finally, the notion of "When in Rome do as the Romans do" applies. Exactly what is considered common, and normal varies by region, and if a dialect or style is commonly used in other parts of the world, then in that part of the world I am the one who should adapt, not the other way around.
I guess I really didn't answer the OPs question, but the above is a summary of how I view the matter. Bottom line is, it depends on the context.
BrunetteGoddess
03-03-2008, 04:56 PM
Oh jesus. Can we grow up already?
scarlett_vancouver
03-03-2008, 05:03 PM
The sh0t hotness makes me want to overlook a lot of assholery. damn.
BrunetteGoddess
03-03-2008, 05:29 PM
Haha...
TigersMilk
03-03-2008, 05:56 PM
yum - internet sarcasm. lol
sassysummer
03-03-2008, 06:10 PM
when i say
'proper' english, i don't mean "formal", I mean standard as TOO says.
meaning, the english that should be spoken when dealing with the general public, especially when those are people possibly from other countries.
this isn't a "black vs white" or "accent" thing, which is definitely regional. like in a southern accent "rIce" short "i", vs, "rieece" the "ie" sound. it's ALMOST another language.
plain and simple, especially in a tour guide situation, she needs to speak, "proper" as my southern mother would say, or as TOO would say "standard" :P
this whole thing kind of reminds me of my mom used to say to me when i said "ain't"
"SUMMER ELAINE! AIN'T, AIN'T A WORD!" lol
sparkleeyz
03-03-2008, 06:13 PM
There is a difference between street slang and "ebonics".
I speak with correct English grammar rules in place, but I use a lot of NYC-related street slang.
Ebonics is to me a sort of linguistic mutation of English where the rules of intransitive verbs, tenses, and contraction rules are mangled.
Also, you reversed her statement. She said most ghetto-ese speakers are black, not that most blacks speak ghetto-ese. I have no idea on the veracity of either statement, but HERS sounds like a fairly reasonable guess. To me.
She implies in her "black area" comment that maybe she means most blacks cannot speak well, but I won't try to extrapolate.
Maybe the problem is the "black area" part and not blacks per se. Maybe blacks-dominant areas place less stress on "professional" communication whereas blacks mixed in the general population follow the usual crowd?
If I may beg to differ for a moment: how many articulate speakers are in predominantly black areas. lets be real.
One can argue that the above statement implies that there are very few, if any "articulate speakers" in predominantly black areas; which deductively implies that most black people in predominantly black areas speak "ghetto-ese" as we are currently referring to it. Since these areas are predominantly black, that would mean that most black people speak "ghetto-ese". It seems to me that she stated BOTH "most ghetto-ese" speakers are black AND that most black people speak ghetto-ese.
Now, as far as your second statement that's in bold. I would reason that the conclusion to whether or not she's right would be what we are considering to be "ghetto-ese". Is the west-indian version of the English language considered "ghetto-ese" (People saying "me" in place of the word "I" and "no" in the place of the word "dont" for example: instead of saying "I don't know.", they might say "Me no know.") Or in this case, common southern slang such as the word "Y'all", "Wah" instead of "Watch" etc. Or our NY slang, "Yous" instead of the plural "You" (which, I personally have ONLY heard white people say so far); "Tawk" or "Cawfee" or "Wawta" instead of "Talk", "Coffee" and "water". Which is "ghetto-ese"? Because let me tell you, MOST spin offs of PROPER English are not spoken by black people when you take into consideration the different variations. Perhaps, "Wanker" may come to mind as an example; it's definately slang, but for an american version...so are "dude", "sweet", "gnarly", "awsome" etc. in the ways that they are used by youth most of the time. Just like "off the chain" etc. are all proper English words, but are used out of context.
sparkleeyz
03-03-2008, 06:19 PM
when i say
'proper' english, i don't mean "formal", I mean standard as TOO says.
meaning, the english that should be spoken when dealing with the general public, especially when those are people possibly from other countries.
this isn't a "black vs white" or "accent" thing, which is definitely regional. like in a southern accent "rIce" short "i", vs, "rieece" the "ie" sound. it's ALMOST another language.
plain and simple, especially in a tour guide situation, she needs to speak, "proper" as my southern mother would say, or as TOO would say "standard" :P
this whole thing kind of reminds me of my mom used to say to me when i said "ain't"
"SUMMER ELAINE! AIN'T, AIN'T A WORD!" lol
LOL, my mom used to do the same thing. She'd say "Aint, isn't a word. When you decide to speak english, I'll listen. Until then, speak to someone else."
I think we all understood the formal versus standard idea.
Your first 2 paragraphs are what I meant in my second-to-last one.
I'm certainly not arguing blacks are the major culprits of deviations from standard issues. I grew up in Queens, our most diverse county, and I had to learn to interrupt shit loads of horrendous English just to order breakfast in the mornings.
"Off the chain" is an idiom and English is full of them. As Katrine said earlier, a lot of the complaint comes from elitists versus non-elitists. I think if the message is communicated lucidly, all is well.
Has anybody here ever checked out HL Mencken's The American language?
I found it a rather fascinating look at how American English split off from the British.
I'm rather fond of "ain't" to be honest.
It's a good idea to replace the stuffy but technically wrong construction of "Aren't I"
Are doesn't mate with I. Yet people think they are geniuses for saying "Aren't I"
Ain't I seems to work, imo. I even like the sound of it.
twisterinAZ
03-03-2008, 06:29 PM
Yes Duh
Duh :D Wow you seem likeable ! Ain't that somethin '?
cameron_keys
03-03-2008, 06:36 PM
I think we all understood the formal versus standard idea.
Your first 2 paragraphs are what I meant in my second-to-last one.
I'm certainly not arguing blacks are the major culprits of deviations from standard issues. I grew up in Queens, our most diverse county, and I had to learn to interrupt shit loads of horrendous English just to order breakfast in the mornings.
"Off the chain" is an idiom and English is full of them. As Katrine said earlier, a lot of the complaint comes from elitists versus non-elitists. I think if the message is communicated lucidly, all is well.
Has anybody here ever checked out HL Mencken's The American language?
I found it a rather fascinating look at how American English split off from the British.
Well put. How I speak with my friends is very differant from how I speak in a professional environment. Theres a time and place. While I might wear ripped jeans and a motercycle jacket and say "aint" and "gonna" with my friends...when I worked in an office I wore a suit and spoke with correct grammer. Its what is expected in such an environment.
I donthave a problem with people speaking in slang or whatever vernacular is popular for the area..esp in a casual social environment...I have a problem when someone who is in a professional position speaks like an uneducated teenager or when people take it SO far that I can no longer understand them. Esp when they look at ME like theres something wrong with me because I dont speak like a rap star!
TheSexKitten
03-03-2008, 06:43 PM
Sh0t is unfortunately a bit too sexy for his own damn shirt... ;)
Anyway, it's not ebonics! I thought ebonics includes much more slang and more deviant grammar. Since her word choice was correct, it was probably just a "Deep-South-African-American" accent. Or maybe just southern. I could see myself saying something like, "Now how do y'all be likin Coke?" if I were to imitate a southern accent. It sounds friendly and unpretentious. So I wouldn't call it racist but I'd say your friend is hoity-toity. Yeah. You know you like that official word usage right thurr. :D
Skin color does not dictate how someone speaks. Culture does.
LoveSexMoney
03-03-2008, 06:46 PM
All right, that's it! I hereby decree :queen: that today is officially Hop-on-Sh0t Day! :lovestruc
sparkleeyz
03-03-2008, 06:49 PM
I think we all understood the formal versus standard idea.
Your first 2 paragraphs are what I meant in my second-to-last one.
I'm certainly not arguing blacks are the major culprits of deviations from standard issues. I grew up in Queens, our most diverse county, and I had to learn to interrupt shit loads of horrendous English just to order breakfast in the mornings.
"Off the chain" is an idiom and English is full of them. As Katrine said earlier, a lot of the complaint comes from elitists versus non-elitists. I think if the message is communicated lucidly, all is well.
Has anybody here ever checked out HL Mencken's The American language?
I found it a rather fascinating look at how American English split off from the British.
Alas.....we agree! LOL. Great debate my friend. I truely enjoyed it. And I'm GONNA (yes, one of MY fave "words") check out The American Language.
High_Heel_Lover
03-03-2008, 06:50 PM
I really detest the word retarded.
Katrine
03-03-2008, 06:55 PM
I enjoy using the contraction "ya'll" and northerners jump on my ass about it all the time. Cerously (sic), I've been told I'm stupid because I use it often, even in professional speech.
I still question the veracity of this second-hand story. Did this girl speak with a heavy southern drawl, did she implement too much casual slang into her presentation, or did she really make multiple significant grammatical mistakes?
Because I see white people speaking improperly all the time. Have you ever heard someone say "I could care less."? They just negated the meaning they implied. How many of us tell our friends about that "white dude who uses double negatives?"
See what I mean?
P.S. I want to have Sh0t's baby.
Online at Bartleby. I have the hardcover, it's a hefty book.
This is my favorite part, on the double-negative:
Many languages use the double negative as a way to reinforce(or even create) the negation. American grammarians are at odds with that view, however.
sparkleeyz
03-03-2008, 07:01 PM
I enjoy using the contraction "ya'll" and northerners jump on my ass about it all the time. Cerously (sic), I've been told I'm stupid because I use it often, even in professional speech.
I still question the veracity of this second-hand story. Did this girl speak with a heavy southern drawl, did she implement too much casual slang into her presentation, or did she really make multiple significant grammatical mistakes?
Because I see white people speaking improperly all the time. Have you ever heard someone say "I could care less."? They just negated the meaning they implied. How many of us tell our friends about that "white dude who uses double negatives?"
See what I mean?
P.S. I want to have Sh0t's baby.
I get the same B.S. because I constantly say "Y'all" and I'm FROM the north. We're on the same page.
Katrine
03-03-2008, 07:11 PM
Many languages use the double negative as a way to reinforce(or even create) the negation. American grammarians are at odds with that view, however.
Yes, this is common with Spanish, and I imagine other romance languages.
MsQwerty
03-03-2008, 07:15 PM
Is it sexist that I was so busy oogleing Sh0t in his video, I wasnt paying attention to anything he said >drool< :eyebrow::lovestruc
Sh0t can you should just make an audio post so I can hear it without distravtion! ;D
BrunetteGoddess
03-03-2008, 07:15 PM
I say y'all and I've never been in the South for longer than 5 days.
*shrug*
BrunetteGoddess
03-03-2008, 07:18 PM
Shit, I had to go watch sh0t's vid again just to look at him. Dammit.
Where was I?
sparkleeyz
03-03-2008, 07:19 PM
Is it sexist that I was so busy oogleing Sh0t in his video, I wasnt paying attention to anything he said >drool< :eyebrow::lovestruc
Sh0t can you should just make an audio post so I can hear it without distravtion! ;D
LOL. I think we're all a bit sexist right now with his video post. I had to watch it twice because as soon as it came on, the theme song to The Wonder Years popped into my head.
Sidebar: That "eyebrow" icon is soooo cute!
Budai
03-03-2008, 07:25 PM
Has anybody here ever checked out HL Mencken's The American language?
I found it a rather fascinating look at how American English split off from the British.
Sh0t, you're startlingly lucid and reasonable today! I think your swollen hand (and the resultant video) has paradoxically expanded your SW demographic. Are you on painkillers or something? ;D
I still question the veracity of this second-hand story. Did this girl speak with a heavy southern drawl, did she implement too much casual slang into her presentation, or did she really make multiple significant grammatical mistakes?
Because I see white people speaking improperly all the time. Have you ever heard someone say "I could care less."? They just negated the meaning they implied. How many of us tell our friends about that "white dude who uses double negatives?".
I agree with you, Kat. The current blending/butchering of the English language stems from more than race or class. I see it as an amalgam of regional norms, historical biases and media-driven trends.
I believe Walt Whitman addressed this debate over language succinctly when he wrote:
"Viewed freely, the English language is the accretion and growth of every dialect, race, and range of time, and is both the free and compacted composition of all."
P.S. I want to have Sh0t's baby.
Katrine, you coquette! Does this foreshadow the return of the SW stork? ;)
SundayMorning
03-03-2008, 07:35 PM
Mmmmmmmmm TOO talking linguistics. A largely (and unfairly) overlooked post, strangely!
nicole84
03-03-2008, 07:38 PM
what is amusing is that if it had been the reverse in terms of race....the OP wouldn't be asking if it was racist. yes, off topic, i know, but still, struck me as interesting.
If you make it about race, it becomes racist. If you are simply saying that the way she spoke was annoying, well, that's fine. I use incorrect grammar all the time with friends and online, but I sure as heck use correct/standard/proper(chose your word folks) when I need to, like in a job.
I think too many people out there excuse poor grammar. an accent is one thing, I get it. But you can have an accent without having poor grammar.
I've met folks of all colors who used horrid english, so I know it doesn't have to do with race, but yes, more of the ones I have come across (let me repeat that for those of you who might jump me...THE ONES I HAVE COME ACROSS) have been black and usually from an economically depressed area.
Is it racist to decry how a white person speaks?
Cue Larry the Cable Guy
RoseLeigh
03-03-2008, 07:48 PM
Mmmmmmmmm TOO talking linguistics. A largely (and unfairly) overlooked post, strangely!
Punishment for not posting the sans-stash pics? I caught it though. }:D
twisterinAZ
03-03-2008, 07:52 PM
I love the word ya'll. I also think 'funner' is more fun to say than more fun. I am a heathen.
twisterinAZ
03-03-2008, 07:53 PM
Is it racist to decry how a white person speaks?
Cue Larry the Cable Guy
No. That's just plain funny if you ask me.
jaizaine
03-03-2008, 08:00 PM
Maybe it's coz Im Australian and it's a bit of a novelty but I like listening to that talk sometimes. I watch Snoop Doggs Fatherhood and I admit I don't know what half of the sayings mean until he explains them but it sounds pretty cool.;D
cameron_keys
03-03-2008, 08:00 PM
I say y'all and I've never been in the South for longer than 5 days.
*shrug*
Me too. Except I AM from the South.....South JERSEY!LOL!
Pan Dah
03-03-2008, 08:02 PM
I've met folks of all colors who used horrid english, so I know it doesn't have to do with race, but yes, more of the ones I have come across (let me repeat that for those of you who might jump me...THE ONES I HAVE COME ACROSS) have been black and usually from an economically depressed area.
Interestingly (at least to me...:) ), thinking specifically of people from the workplace, the most horrendous mangling of English, especially written English, has been by white college graduates. ::)
Co-sign the above.
They need copies of Strunk and White.
nicole84
03-03-2008, 08:06 PM
I agree, in the workplace...I totally agree. It's like they forget everything they ever learned....ok, so i'm only guessing they learned it. It's amazing what you can get out of school not knowing.
ColetteCalahan
03-03-2008, 08:06 PM
.... i think we've been over this before...
Budai
03-03-2008, 08:10 PM
Cue Larry the Cable Guy
"But Butlin..." :D
Larry [after farting] : 'Good Lord Jesus and Dale Earnhardt Jr., I am a dadgum time bomb. '
Colette obviously missed pages 2 on from this thread. this thread took a MUCH different turn than that other thread.
Not to diss Dale E. but I saw Marines CRYING over his death when the news hit my ship.
Budai
03-03-2008, 08:20 PM
Mmmmmmmmm TOO talking linguistics. A largely (and unfairly) overlooked post, strangely!
Agreed, Sunday Morning, he has a lot to offer. However, I'll take the Cliff Notes, please...
SundayMorning
03-03-2008, 08:23 PM
Cliff's Notes: Speak english good, yall.
Budai
03-03-2008, 08:28 PM
Cliff's Notes: Speak english good, yall.
:-[ Ouch! :-[
Slinks off to Picture Post to peek at SM again...
Jenny
03-03-2008, 08:39 PM
I'm rather fond of "ain't" to be honest.
It's a good idea to replace the stuffy but technically wrong construction of "Aren't I"
Are doesn't mate with I. Yet people think they are geniuses for saying "Aren't I"
Ain't I seems to work, imo. I even like the sound of it.How about "Am I not"? Are I a genius yet?