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Lola Rose
03-03-2008, 08:45 PM
i only read page 1, but i live in a pretty southern part of florida, and that just sounds like a southern speech pattern and vocab. it's informal.

i'd love to have her be my tour guide, I bet she was fun and had a lot of personality.

All Good Things
03-03-2008, 08:59 PM
Mmmmmmmmm TOO talking linguistics. A largely (and unfairly) overlooked post, strangely!

Strange? No, totally obvious. All the girls are blinded by Sh0t's hotness and are trying to reconcile his "asshattery," as Scarlett so succinctly put it, with his hottness.

Hottness is winning, of course.

I'm going to have to do full nudes to get anybody to even read my posts. My studio shots are not working anymore. It's why nobody has a crush on me anymore. :-\ LOL


I think we all understood the formal versus standard idea.

It's not "formal vs. standard." What was being used throughout the thread was "proper vs. improper." This is a completely false dichotomy, and a hugely judgmental one. It's where all the "look-down-your-nose" power is coming from.


I'm certainly not arguing blacks are the major culprits of deviations from standard issues. I grew up in Queens, our most diverse county, and I had to learn to interrupt shit loads of horrendous English just to order breakfast in the mornings.

OK. Let's try this. Dialects are not "deviations" from "standard." They originate from standard and they evolve and grow in their own direction. They are like independent organic plants. AAVE is completely different, distinct, its own body. It obeys its own internally consistent rules. At this point it not a deviation.

What you heard in Queens was not "horrendous English." By definition, as you've said elsewhere, as long as people can communicate, it's cool for you. What you heard was "non-standard English." It was likely a mixture of dialect, ethnically-driven pronunciations that were difficult to understand and a use of grammar that is accepted locally, but not universally throughout the U.S. because it's simply not understood.


I donthave a problem with people speaking in slang or whatever vernacular is popular for the area..esp in a casual social environment...I have a problem when someone who is in a professional position speaks like an uneducated teenager or when people take it SO far that I can no longer understand them. Esp when they look at ME like theres something wrong with me because I dont speak like a rap star!

The fact that they are speaking in the vernacular does not make them "uneducated." But you made that value judgment. It's everywhere throughout this thead, no matter how many times I try to point it out.

This idea that one should speak "professional" English or "business" English or some other made-up distinctions that don't really exist is that the speaker feels more comfortable with SAE in those settings and thinks other people should do the same. But I can think of countless examples where speaking SAE instead of AAVE in this country would make you look ridiculous -- any hip-hop or rap recording session, meeting, discussion, film whatever; local small business in any major African-American (and WELL-EDUCATED) areas in major cities. And tour guides! People who are meant to be accessible, to speak the colloquial language; to be more friendly.

Most of these guys on the music and entertainment industries are multidialectical to begin with and can switch easily to perfect SAE to mimic how stupid and silly it sounds in the context where AAVE grew up and evolved. Did anybody see the film "Crash?" Ludacris was code-switching between dialects so fast that I had a hard time keeping up with him.

Education does not teach us language, so how we speak cannot be attributed to the presence or absence of education. We communicated by language tens of thousands of years before we became literate. Language's natural form is speech. The written form is an arbitrary abstraction, one we have used to form rules only very, very recently -- for most of the populace, only within the last 200 years or so. Before that, humans communicated perfectly successfully through speech without formal education, dictionaries, Grammar Nazis or people to correct them who were in fact themselves wrong.

What did exist all along was the ability to differentiate one's group or tribe from others by use of speech. This is a deliberate, specific, programmed part of human speech generation. We are designed to produce dialects -- they are hard-wired into our brains from birth. So prejudice has nothing to do with education -- it has everything to do with "the other," the way "other" tribes or groups speak, and how it is different from the way we do. We do not like it. We do not think it is proper. We think it is OK if they speak it here but not there. All of these are ways of pointing our fingers at another person or group who is speaking a perfectly consistent dialect, but it's not ours. We don't like it. This is how racism can grow so quickly from waters this infested with misunderstanding.

All I've been trying to do in my two posts is point out all the laws we already know. None of this is in the slightest dispute. I feel like I wrote out the basic facts known to the science of linguistics so everybody would have the linguistic basis to continue the discussion, sort of like a primer, but it seems everybody promptly ignored it. It's like my saying, "look, 5 x 5 =25, OK? It will help you in the discussion." And the thread continues on arguing "since 5 x 5 = 236, we need to make sure everybody understands that 50 + 50 = 1,000." It's crazy.



Because I see white people speaking improperly all the time. Have you ever heard someone say "I could care less."? They just negated the meaning they implied.

No they didn't. The person they spoke to -- you included -- knew what they meant. Therefore, it was not "improper." It was simply non-standard. For right now.

But even that is changing. Slang dictionaries already allow "I could care less" to enter the slang lexicon to in fact mean "I couldn't care less." Why? Because it is used that way. This is actually the natural evolution of language. "I could care less" is simpler. It obeys the ironclad rule of language efficiency. And most importantly, you, the speaker, and everybody else knew exactly what was intended. Bingo, it is adopted to represent how people are using it. Give it a few years before it shows up as "standard" in the dictionaries.

Pan Dah
03-03-2008, 09:04 PM
i only read page 1, but i live in a pretty southern part of florida, and that just sounds like a southern speech pattern and vocab. it's informal.
That's what I didn't understand about this thread to start with. The OP's from Tampa FFS, not Portland (Oregon or Maine) or the Bronx or something. I mean hell, it's been a while but the last time I was in Tampa I was at a NYE party with a bunch of drunken rednecks firing off their pistols at midnight...
I would of figgered that talk was right normal.;)

Sh0t
03-03-2008, 09:06 PM
I meant "we all understand that by standard, we mean formal"

If it sprang up from an original thread and splintered off, it's a deviation. I see it in software all the time. We call them "forks". Xyz program will be a "fork" of program ABC. I understand the linguistics community has their own jargon, of course.

Languages do have a standard people expect. that's the value in having a language. The symbols and sounds codify something people who understand the language can understand.

What is a friendly vernacular can be offense to another.

I think people ignored your point because it was wrapped around all that verbiage that was probably unnecessary.

Just because two people can agree on a misuse of a language snippet doesn't mean it will last. I think there is also a strong pressure for accuracy in language, which is why there is a constant pressure against colloquial double negative usage, reversed emphasis, etc.

I think that idea butts up against several other ideas, including the encoding of each individual phonetic piece(in the case of English).

jester214
03-03-2008, 09:14 PM
Too much emphasis on is being put on accent... If you say "how yall be likin coke" in any accent, to a person who is used to better grammar... It is going to appear weird... Accent isn't the issue here, it's word choice...

All Good Things
03-03-2008, 09:42 PM
Languages do have a standard people expect. that's the value in having a language. The symbols and sounds codify something people who understand the language can understand.

Not quite. You are mixing spoken language with written language.

Spoken language, e.g. the "real" language, evolves because of modified usage that is more efficient, or introduces new concepts or allows things to be said in a simpler way. Spoken language evolves much faster than written language. It is the "real" language and survived perfectly well for tens or hundreds of thousands of years without formal codification among the vast majority of the populace.

The written language was codified broadly very, very recently, specifically to allow people with different regional pronunciations (such as people in Boston and those in Atlanta) to understand each other, e.g. to assure that radically different pronunciations of words did not lead to widespread misunderstandings. It also codified spelling and usage, but recognized, almost worshipped, regional variations. This happened specifically because literacy became more widespread and there had to be some agreement to link together the variations.

A good example of the dramatic difference between spoken and written language is the example of Chinese. Chinese has two independent writing systems -- Simplified and Traditional -- but there are seven different independent dialects of spoken Chinese. Technically, because they are mutually unintelligible, they are independent languages. But if you put one Chinese speaking Mandarin next to somebody speaking Cantonese, they will be completely unable to communicate by speech. But they can both read the exact same newspaper and understand it perfectly. The reading skills were taught by education. Speech, however, had nothing to do with education, and evolved independently.


What is a friendly vernacular can be offense to another.

That is exactly my point. It is linguistic prejudice -- a condition, unfortunately, that we are distinctly hard-wired for.


Just because two people can agree on a misuse of a language snippet doesn't mean it will last.

It's not "misuse." It's often a new or unique use.

Example. For the longest time, the phrase "to grow a company" drove me nuts. You can't grow inanimate objects. You can't "grow" a table lamp. You need life to grow something, so you can grow a tree or weed, but not a baseball. In every way, this was "nonstandard." Eventually, however, I noticed that there was a reason for the distinction. The phrase had arisen spontaneously to represent companies that are "grown organically," e.g. from internal growth, and to distinguish them from those grown from acquisition. So what was non-standard in every way became standard because it highlighted a distinction. I voted for including it within a year of first hearing it.

cameron_keys
03-03-2008, 09:51 PM
I'm going to have to do full nudes to get anybody to even read my posts. My studio shots are not working anymore. It's why nobody has a crush on me anymore. :-\ LOL





I think most of us would have difficulty concentrating on what you write if there are naked pics to distract us!

Sh0t
03-03-2008, 09:57 PM
it's not a confusion for ENGLISH, which as a spoken and written language, relies on codified symbols(drawn or spoken) to represent phonetic blocks which are then combined to form conceptual blocks.

Written language itself is very important also evolves fast. Take for example something like a homophone? Same auditory encoding, but the drawn symbols correspond to something else. Likewise, heterophones and homographs represent evolution of language as a written form advancing alongside or often diverging from the spoken form.

Chinese is a bad example to compare with English because Chinese, unlike English, is not based around phonetics as things relate from written word to sound to resolve concept.

All that example shows is that you failed to grasp the distinction. This is similar to using further versus farther, etc.

Also, English as a written and spoken language is quite young and our current incarnation of it evolved pretty much side by side as "it" came from a clash of Germanic and Romantic languages to form something quite different yet similar to both.


This happened specifically because literacy became more widespread and there had to be some agreement to link together the variations.
Did you check out the Menken book earlier?(You may have read it before).

Where are you getting this history from? The written English was codified to help different dialects understand each other?? Wut? English, especially American vulgate, contains many such concessions to regional differences.

English, unlike French, has never had a board to dictate what the language should be. It's just been extended and modified by the vulgate. To say that English evolved as-spoken faster than as-written is really to superimpose the history of OTHER languages on English, which to my knowledge, has had quite a different history from say, your other example: Chinese.

SportsWriter2
03-03-2008, 10:07 PM
Slang dictionaries already allow "I could care less" to enter the slang lexicon to in fact mean "I couldn't care less." Why? Because it is used that way. This is actually the natural evolution of language. "I could care less" is simpler.
There's a cultural evolution here as well. "I couldn't care less" expresses contempt. "I could care less" expresses measured indifference, which is now more often what people want to say.

hardkandee
03-03-2008, 10:08 PM
Darn it all. I have a lot to say and no time to post. :(

But, so far, I like this discussion.

Budai
03-03-2008, 11:29 PM
OK let's see if this starts a firestorm...

So....my question is...is it racist to be taken aback when a black person speaks in such a way in situations like this?
No firestorm yet, Mr. H...

Several years ago, Bum Phillips--the colorful, Texan, 10-gallon-hat-wearin' head coach of the NFL's Houston Oilers--said respectfully of rival coach Don Shula of the Miami Dolphins during a press conference:

"He could take his'n and beat your'n and take your'n and beat his'n."

This was well before Art Shell became the NFL's first Af-Am head coach. Far from being taken aback, people of varying races, colors, shades, cultures, ethnicities, origins, etc were charmed and amused by the congruence between Bum's background, his appearance and his spoken words. Contextually, the presence of a large gathering of people when he said it meant less than a flea fart.

Your friend may have been influenced by preconceptions about the speaker based on both her appearance and her profession. Whether there were racist connotations underlying his indignation in this particular instance is something that y'all (as his friend) seem best qualified to discuss...

sassysummer
03-03-2008, 11:56 PM
my brain is 'splodin from all the intellectual talkin :dunce:

:bomb: <<<that's my head lol




seriously though, i love all you smarty pants, but you make my head hurt sometimes! i feel so dumb around all you intellects! hahaha




:-*

jaizaine
03-03-2008, 11:57 PM
[COLOR=black]

Strange? No, totally obvious. All the girls are blinded by Sh0t's hotness and are trying to reconcile his "asshattery," as Scarlett so succinctly put it, with his hottness.



Please don't say ALL. Not ALL of us i'm sure. I know for me it's simple:

Asshattery > hotness.

Tauries
03-04-2008, 03:19 AM
Please don't say ALL. Not ALL of us i'm sure. I know for me it's simple:

Asshattery > hotness.

That level of taste and smarts has upped you to crush status in my book Jaiz!!;)

Djoser
03-04-2008, 05:59 AM
I find Ebonics to be a dialect utterly devoid of any aesthetic appeal whatsoever, whatever race is employing it. I've heard more white guys use it than any other ethnic category. They sound like idiots, but I often suspect it's intentional.

To each be dey own...

I do sometimes suspect that Ebonics represents an unusual case--an apparent attempt to invent, legitimize, and proselytize a relatively new dialect in record time.

If I heard that tour guide speaking in such a manner, I'd instantly lose the group and figure out the displays myself, which is generally a lot more fun anyway. But I fucking hate tours, and always will.


TOO, I have said it before and I'll say it again, your mastery of linguistics is extremely impressive, I really wish you would write more on the subject, instead of the erotica (though of course I realize you have been encouraged by many female members). Your reasoning here is precise and cogent, and your impressive academic background quite evident.





Written language itself is very important also evolves fast.

...our current incarnation of it evolved pretty much side by side as "it" came from a clash of Germanic and Romantic languages to form something quite different yet similar to both.


What?

On second thought, never mind. I think I get what you are trying to say about English being a fusion of Germanic and Romance languages (primarily French, of course).

Semantics and proper spelling of linguistic terminology are clearly superfluous here. Your masterful use of the Swollen Hand Ploy means you won out in this thread long ago, which should probably be moved to Picture Post as a result, lol...

That was an impressively speedy recovery, BTW. The hand, I mean. The Game appears to be working quite well for you.



Please don't say ALL. Not ALL of us i'm sure. I know for me it's simple:

Asshattery > hotness.

Without getting into whether asshattery is being displayed in this particular thread, I do so admire a woman who requires more than an appealing exterior in a man.


That level of taste and smarts has upped you to crush status in my book Jaiz!!;)

If you saw her in a WW bikini, you'd be in serious trouble, then.

Tauries
03-04-2008, 06:13 AM
If you saw her in a WW bikini, you'd be in serious trouble, then.

I know I owe ya shots but the smarts, coolness,taste, hotness displayed by the fine Aussies' on this board might have me moving there real soon!! I fully agree with the street gutter slang employed by drug dealers/rappers as not fit for human consumption....no matter if white knights prefer taking black rooks!!

RoseLeigh
03-04-2008, 06:58 AM
Please don't say ALL. Not ALL of us i'm sure. I know for me it's simple:

Asshattery > hotness.

Seriously. :yes: I'm offended by your generalization, TOO. Now you must write Jaiz and I some linguistic porn.:biggrin:

Jenny
03-04-2008, 07:40 AM
Please don't say ALL. Not ALL of us i'm sure. I know for me it's simple:

Asshattery > hotness.
To be fair - it is considered kind of rude, when other members are saying nice things, to come wandering in with your criticisms. Note below where Djoser and Tauries are in rhapsodies about your taste and body - wouldn't it be impolite for someone else to pipe in all "I'm actually not that impressed"? (I am, of course, very impressed - I'm just saying that it is not always absolutely necessary to come blundering in with one's "real" opinion just because people are being nice to or about people one might not be inclined to be nice to).

Sh0t
03-04-2008, 07:43 AM
To be less fair, fire away I say. Doesn't bother me.

@DJoser, was getting late as I wrote that so my words started blending together.

I meant that for English, the verbal and written evolved side by side because it was "created" in the post-written world. It(in modern form) didn't have centuries of oral use before the written glyphs came on top of it.

cinammonkisses
03-04-2008, 08:33 AM
why was the race mentioned? becuase most people who speak ghetto-ese are black. its a hard sentence to read for some people but come on how many articulate speakers are in predominantly black areas. lets be real.

im leaving my comments there, and gonna sit back and watch the flames rise.
;)

Wow, I honestly can't even believe that's coming from you. Now lets be real, when was the LAST time you were in a black community and sat in on a community council meeting or some other community event that caused the need for some spoken dialoge to take place? YOUR post was pretty racist IMO :(

Mr. Hyde, to answer your question, no I don't think it was racist for your friend to be taken aback. I dont' think the woman was being ghetto, I just think she had a bit of that "southern twang" Quiet as kept, I've heard whites and blacks have this kind of "twang"

Djoser
03-04-2008, 08:40 AM
To be fair - it is considered kind of rude, when other members are saying nice things, to come wandering in with your criticisms. Note below where Djoser and Tauries are in rhapsodies about your taste and body - wouldn't it be impolite for someone else to pipe in all "I'm actually not that impressed"? (I am, of course, very impressed - I'm just saying that it is not always absolutely necessary to come blundering in with one's "real" opinion just because people are being nice to or about people one might not be inclined to be nice to).


Right, spanking for Jaizaine. And TOO of course for bringing up Sh0t's presumed asshattery in the first place. Oh wait, a spanking for Scarlett as well, she started it.

Now I'm off to compose a symphony for Scarlett, an ode to Twister, and perhaps a dittie for Dottie.

;D

Katrine
03-04-2008, 09:37 AM
Katrine, you coquette! Does this foreshadow the return of the SW stork? ;)

No stork for me, ever. I cannot share in the baby joy. :'(

All Good Things
03-04-2008, 10:18 AM
Right, spanking for Jaizaine. And TOO of course for bringing up Sh0t's presumed asshattery in the first place. Oh wait, a spanking for Scarlett as well, she started it. ;D

How did I get caught up in the middle of this? My somewhat tongue-in-cheek point was that all the girls were sidetracked by Sh0t's video and hottness and were not paying attention to what I was writing because my pics are not as hott as Sh0t's video. I've been out-hotted. ;D

Hell, I was the one who asked point-blank if that was Sh0t in the video so we would all know.

Anyway, I did not bring up Sh0t's asshattery in the first place. I was totally quoting Scarlett, who I am sure was also speaking just to be fun.

Katrine
03-04-2008, 10:21 AM
Jealous much TOO?

Sh0t
03-04-2008, 10:23 AM
I.breathe.in asked first, and got answered first!

It wasn't really in contention, people should know what I look like, since I have posted pictures. I also don't endorse the view I am hot(or an asshat for that matter).

Do you have a copy of "Strunk and White" TOO?

All Good Things
03-04-2008, 10:35 AM
^ I think three copies in different editions, the first one when I was about 16. But Strunk and White are all about codifying SAE in written form. Essentially, "best practices" for writers who compose in SAE.

And, of course, a good percentage of what they say varies from what is quoted as "standard" in the Chicago Manual of Style. Which is different from the New York Times manual, which is different from the Washington Post guide.....

S&W do not deal with anything outside of SAE. Nothing about AAVE or Southern American English or dialect formation or dialect distribution or creolization or anything at the core of what we've been describing here.

All Good Things
03-04-2008, 10:40 AM
Jealous much TOO?

Well, in my book, "I've been outhotted" with a ;D = humorous self-deprecation.

I'm perfectly willing to be corrected if I missed that one.

Sh0t
03-04-2008, 10:48 AM
My point of bringing up Elements of Style was to apply its lessons to your posts, not as commentary on our the topic.

I have the NYT and Chicago Manuals of Style, not much differs. They deal with different domains. I collect writing books alongside my feminist library.


You weren't out-hotted.

What is your opinion on the usage of double-negatives in English(especially the vulgate), compared to the constructions of normal negatives in other languages, like French?

seraya
03-04-2008, 10:59 AM
Haha I find it ever so amusing how Sh0t continues to stay on topic and turn a blind eye to all the fawning over his vid. I'm impressed ;D

threlayer
03-04-2008, 11:37 AM
Hard to say if it is "ghetto". Southern accents from rural areas use a LOT of tripthongs (yes, well beyond dipthongs) which may well be completely separate from education. I don't think it's a racist issue.

I do think this is not good business image to present in a big company's world headquarters.

To those who think it is 'racist', what is your idea of racist?

-----

no it's not a southern drawl. it's ebonics

i was born and raised in the south, never once i have i spoke ebonics.

her race has nothing to do with it. nowadays, it's more age than anything. i see white people speaking ebonics also....

Sassysummers's quote's very realistic, and it answers your question. Grammar book discussions are irrelevant here. WADR. :)

Sh0t
03-04-2008, 11:59 AM
McDonald's has those "I'm lovin' it" commercials.

Do you think that's racist? How about ineffective?

vivianbear
03-04-2008, 03:25 PM
Now that is just ignorant and stupid. Most black people DO NOT speak "ghetto-ese" (whatever the fuck that is).

It would have been nice (if you're going to try and peg black people as ignorant) if you could have used your all mighty whiteness to come off as a mildly intelligent person who made it past 9th grade English. Jeezuz.

As someone from both race, there are plently of ignorant sounding white people as well.

Yeah, I agree. I'm a mixed-race latina from the northwest. My husband is mixed race black/native from the deep south. Both of us have to hear the same shit out of white people about our speech. Be it regional or social, I really have a problem with white people being the final judges on what is "proper english" and I do think comments from the OP's friend to be underlyingly racist. At least, elitist. I also subscribe to the definition of racist to be a very specific form of power-play from WHITE people who hold social and economic privelege over people of color. Its not just as simple as the mean shit white people say on a daily basis.

PS--
I'm totally aware that this is just the internet and people say dumb shit all the time (myself included, I'm sure), that's fine. But for the record, if I EVER hear a hipster white chick who brags about living near the projects even mumble the word ghetto-ese in my company, I am going to break her god-damn jaw. That is easily one of the most fucked up things I've heard in a while, yo. I mean, did you make that up yourself or is there a dictionary of fucked-up words white people get to use that I don't know about?

tampadancer
03-04-2008, 04:10 PM
No. This is definitely not racist. In our society, standard English is what is acceptable in professional or business situations. Ebonics and slang are not appropriate in these environments.

I would also like to point out that there is a difference between an accent, and speaking slang. Someone can have an accent from any region, and still speak perfect standard English. The bottom line is that slang gives the appearance of a lack of both education and professionalism.

I have a VERY hard time getting my high school students to distinguish between standard and informal English. Between slang and text/im language, many are totally lost. One of my friends is a college professor. She was grading some essays from her JUNIOR level students, and she was able to instantly pull out five papers in which her students had used "u" in replace of "you" throughout their entire papers.

I recognize that not everyone is brought up with standard English, but if you are going to be a professional in America, you should be expected to learn it.

So, yes, if I were a part of the Coke, I would have been terribly embarrassed by the girl's murder of the English language.

Then again, I am a frustrated English teacher...

Djoser
03-04-2008, 04:12 PM
How did I get caught up in the middle of this? My somewhat tongue-in-cheek point was that all the girls were sidetracked by Sh0t's video and hottness and were not paying attention to what I was writing because my pics are not as hott as Sh0t's video. I've been out-hotted. ;D

Hell, I was the one who asked point-blank if that was Sh0t in the video so we would all know.

Anyway, I did not bring up Sh0t's asshattery in the first place. I was totally quoting Scarlett, who I am sure was also speaking just to be fun.

I was just having fun, sorry. Just a joke to try to keep things light, along he lines of Jenny's reminder that we be nice. Only I might have botched it, it seems.

My compliments on your linguistic knowledge were no joke at all, however. I am seriously impressed.

Bella21
03-04-2008, 04:15 PM
This thread makes me feel bad about using "like", "dude", "rad", "totally", "awesome" etc... a lot. (I managed to cut out "tubuler" a long time ago.) I can see myself using some of those words even if I were doing a tour of a museum, seriously. (Oh yea, add "seriously" to that list.) Of course, I spent a good portion of my life in surfer towns. I guess that counts as what we're talking about, right? If I went to a different part of the country and used those words, would I get the same reaction? Would I get, "Stupid white girl can't speak proper English"? Like, if I said, "Coke is so totally rad. Dude, it's seriously tubuler! Like, how do you guys like it?". (Okay, I'm not THAT bad unless I'm drunk... but what would the reaction be?)

TheSexKitten
03-04-2008, 04:17 PM
^^^ LOL! Good point. How would stuffy middle aged white men react if I said something like, "So like, do you dudes like coke? I mean, it's totally rad, right?!"

:D

Budai
03-04-2008, 05:05 PM
^^^ LOL! Good point. How would stuffy middle aged white men react if I said something like, "So like, do you dudes like coke? I mean, it's totally rad, right?!"
:D

Somehow, TSK, your post triggered the memory of a scene from the movie "Airplane," where Barbara Billingsley (June Cleaver) makes a priceless cameo appearance translating 'jive' between a flight attendant and two black men.

Sh0t
03-04-2008, 05:27 PM
They would probably get rock hard and ask you how did you get so wonderful.

I see middle-aged white males tripping over themselves for dumb chicks out here all the time whenever I go out downtown.

Ever see a group of bankers go eat at hooters? It's a supply of lulz

Djoser
03-04-2008, 06:22 PM
WTF? Sh0t and I agree, twice in one day?

But yeah, you could speak the most debased form of vulgarity imaginable, in Sanskrit, and they'd be lapping it up--judging from that avatar.

From my observations in the clubs, this is a well-neigh universal effect.

What is this, a paean to TSK? Could be a bit much for one day on SW. Time for Djoser to go out for a drink, I think.

CinammonGirl
03-04-2008, 06:51 PM
Is this guy and his family from the South as well?

White people in the south talk like "how's yall be liking coke?" too. I lived in Alabama for awhile. It's not just some black people that talk like that.

Budai
03-04-2008, 06:56 PM
White people in the south talk like "how's yall be liking coke?" too. I lived in Alabama for awhile. It's not just some black people that talk like that.
They have Piggly Wiggly's, too...Shop the Pig and SAVE!

Bob_Loblaw
03-04-2008, 06:59 PM
Addressing the OP and ignoring the dialogue in between:

He said that she spoke in a very distinctly non-professional manner the whole tour...not her choice of words, but the way she talked.
<snip>
...is it racist to be taken aback when a black person speaks in such a way in situations like this?

If the question was, "Is it unreasonable to be taken aback when a person speaks in such a way in situations like this?" no, not at all. There is a socially accepted level of standardism (trying to appease TOO here) that applies to everyone when it comes to communicating at work. But since the spotlight was put on the tour guide's race, I most definitely consider it to be racist. Subtly racist but racist nonetheless.

I like some others actually read "How y'all be likin' Coke" as a Southern drawl rather than ghetto-ese.

As far as Sh0t's video commentary goes, he posted a video response to Jenny back in November on the blue side. At the risk of sounding too much like hockeybobby, the pinkies are more than welcome to visit downstairs once in a while. Perhaps Sh0t's attempt at leading the men to the blue side was a failure but maybe he'd have more success as a pied piper leading women there.

Sh0t
03-04-2008, 07:09 PM
No thanks.

Keep the blue, blue.

You are blue on the outside, but pink on the inside bro. What's wrong with you?

Bob_Loblaw
03-04-2008, 07:25 PM
Clearly I'm a confused individual trying to find himself

Budai
03-04-2008, 07:35 PM
[

I have an acquaintance who was at the Coca-Cola museum in Atlanta this past weekend. He said he and his family took a tour that was led by what appeared to be a very nice, well-dressed, and well mannered black woman in her early 20s. However...

To the OP:

Consider how the woman's language impacted your friend's reaction to her. Did it reinforce his expectations, or did it reshape them?

The language people use to discuss something often reflects their attitudes toward that thing. Assuming that you haven't judiciously "edited" his indignation and upon reviewing your choice of words, it appears that both of you are demonstrating a form of linguistic bias.



But since the spotlight was put on the tour guide's race, I most definitely consider it to be racist. Subtly racist but racist nonetheless.

Yes, yes, y'all!!!

nicole84
03-04-2008, 07:41 PM
Maybe I'm an elitist, but I personally think that whatever race you are, you should speak what is generally considered "proper" english when in a professional situation...be it tour guide or CEO.

At home and with your buddies, I don't care, even if it does still bug me after a while.

Yes, the way the OPs question was posed was in a a racist manner, but, I do understand being annoyed/surprised/etc. at english like that.

Lexi
03-04-2008, 09:34 PM
Of course it's me.



You are fuckin hot. :drool:


Haha I find it ever so amusing how Sh0t continues to stay on topic and turn a blind eye to all the fawning over his vid. I'm impressed

Just makes him hotter, right??? lol

TarsTone
03-05-2008, 04:18 AM
I also subscribe to the definition of racist to be a very specific form of power-play from WHITE people who hold social and economic privelege over people of color.
I'm half-European, half-Middle Eastern. I grew up in a Middle Eastern country and came to the US in my early teens. As an immigrant who didn't even grow up in a "white" culture, I think your definition of racism is absurd and self-serving. Racism is the view that one's race is superior to other races. Period. The idea that only people of a certain race can be racist, is not only dumb, but quite racist in and of itself. It's just a cop-out for non-white racists to make derogatory racial statements and not have to answer for their hypocrisy.


But for the record, if I EVER hear a hipster white chick who brags about living near the projects even mumble the word ghetto-ese in my company, I am going to break her god-damn jaw. That is easily one of the most fucked up things I've heard in a while, yo.
Very impressive. You seem quite rational and pleasant. Must be a joy to have you around, yo.


I mean, did you make that up yourself or is there a dictionary of fucked-up words white people get to use that I don't know about?
It's one of those code words they come up with at secret meetings. I can't go to them as I'm impure. But these devils are always coming up with something. I think you should break the jaw of the next white person you see. That would put the bastards in their place.

zippyelf
03-05-2008, 05:31 AM
As an immigrant who didn't even grow up in a "white" culture, I think your definition of racism is absurd and self-serving. Racism is the view that one's race is superior to other races. Period. The idea that only people of a certain race can be racist, is not only dumb, but quite racist in and of itself. It's just a cop-out for non-white racists to make derogatory racial statements and not have to answer for their hypocrisy.


Quoted for truth. This was going to be my exact reply.

Djoser
03-05-2008, 07:42 AM
Haha I find it ever so amusing how Sh0t continues to stay on topic and turn a blind eye to all the fawning over his vid. I'm impressed ;D

I am impressed as well, but I don't think for a moment he isn't aware of the fawning. In fact I don't believe for a second his hand being swollen was the reason he made the video, especially seeing as how he was merrily typing away shortly afterwards. Sorry, Sh0t, maybe your powers of recuperation are greater than I am aware of, but I doubt it, lol.

And I wouldn't be posting this if I didn't find you to be a likable person, as I have said before--in spite of your Pick Up Artist ways.

I'm so impressed I am breaking my own rule about posting a reply to any thread in which a guy is getting fawned over.

What really impresses me is that we have a guy here who has actually said that women are boring, that the guys on the pink side are spineless, that he is primarily concerned with racking up a high score of women he has fucked, that a couple of our male mods are pussies or whatever, etc., etc. And yet the women here fawning over him don't care.

I think Sh0t is running a Game here on SW, and he is running it very well. No one really cares about whether that woman should use Ebonics, lol--this thread is about Sh0t, basically. And even I am posting in it!

Bravo, Sh0t--well done...

Now, my challenge to you--and I know you like a challenge--is to stop running the fucking Game here on SW. I think you should go ahead and post more videos if you want (and who could blame you, lol!).

But get real. Post them in Picture Post, and enjoy the response there. Not a damn thing wrong with that--I did it myself, as you know. And so many of our eminently desirable female members have done it as well, neither of us should feel any remorse. If women can do it, why not the men?

If I didn't still somehow like you in spite of doing all these things I normally deplore, I wouldn't say this.