View Full Version : Converting Religions - Is there a RIGHT reason?
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Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 06:26 AM
I think converting is really an unnecessary step. Jewish people, of pretty much any type, will welcome you to their shabbos table just b/c of your interest. You can practice, experience, learn (judiasm is huge... there is so much you still won't know, even if you were raised hassidic), and then, if you feel even more strongly in a year or two, then you'll be more dedicated in the conversion process (which is difficult and long, with a lot of learning as well) and you'll already have a good head start.
Many people who once had no belief in G-d find that over time, as they go through the motions: baking challahlighting candles, listening to a child read at pasach..... the faith part grows, and that belief may find you. I'm not saying it will definatly happen, but it is good to be open to the idea of it happening. I found G-d entering my life at all sorts of times, and I really had very little faith left, for a time. I did nothing to "find" anything, I just went through the motions, recited the prayers, and eventually, I believed a little bit of what I was saying, then more, then more.
I personally don't know anything about the convirsion process of progressive judiasm, but good luck if that's the path you decide to take.
xdamage
03-08-2008, 06:47 AM
...Blind faith is an ugly thing. ...
Maybe an interesting story about the wrong reasons...
When I was much younger I became a Christian, basically catalyzed by having met a girl that I fell for. I despised the rituals, but the people seemed honestly to be likable... problem was... the blind faith required of the group. Like any group think mentality, there was no room for honest questions or open discussion that threatened the group beliefs.
Somewhere along the way I found myself in their midst, realizing I had no business in a group of people who put blind faith before provable fact. I had an epiphany, that if there really was such thing as the devil, that nothing could be better then people who act on faith vs intellect and fact. They will believe any lie, no matter how outrageous in the name of God.
Plus it hit me, these people really didn't do anything anymore then the non believers I knew. They made no more significant effort in their lives to help anyone than non Christians. Sure, they showed up at church and gave donations to church, but otherwise they were just like everyone else I knew in terms of practical helping other people. Poof... I felt like if there was a God, this sitting around in a building and believing in faith over fact and yet really doing nothing would be the last thing a God wanted. Bye bye rituals and religion for me.
I don't know what the right reasons are, but doing it for a girl... definitely the wrong reason.
hockeybobby
03-08-2008, 07:00 AM
I'm cool with anything that helps to make you a happy, content Lysondra. Whatever gets you through the night, as Lennon said.
The Lysondra sense of humour is worship worthy to me. Laughter is the sacrament.
hb
RoseLeigh
03-08-2008, 09:13 AM
I've actually considered converting as well, Lysondra. I thought I was kind of nuts, as I'm a pagan, but something about Judaism makes me happy. Can one be a Jewish pagan?
Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 11:01 AM
Lola's post is dead-on. And whoever said on page one that conversion within the Reform movement was "simple" doesn't know what they're talking about - it takes years of study, a beit din and mikvah just like in any other movement.
Don't rush it, Lys. Join the community with the understanding that it may be a few years before you're ready to get wet. Read all the books you can (you could fill whole libraries with books on Judaism); I especially recommend Harold Kushner's To Life! and Anita Diamant's Choosing a Jewish Life. Start out by lighting candles on Friday night and gradually expand your observance from there. Passover is coming up, and a seder is a wonderful time to learn more about what it means to be Jewish. You can meet with a rabbi at any time you like, but the rabbi will not formalize your conversion for another few years until you both are completely ready. I met with a rabbi every week for about two years until my conversion was final.
What movement are you looking at? All non-Orthodox movements (and in fact some Orthodox congregations) walk under the "progressive" umbrella. It sounds like you're going for Reform or Reconstructionist - I don't know if there's a Reconstructionist congregation in Brisbane but it sounds like the best fit for you.
PM me anytime! I'm trying to get back into Judaism after some lax observance and I'd love to share with you. Oh, BTW, I've never met a Jewish guy who wasn't already married to his mother, so get used that stereotype, LOL!
nicole84
03-08-2008, 11:06 AM
I was not saying that the conversion was "simple" I was merely trying to point out, without going into great detail, that the rules you are expected to follow under reform judaism are very different than orthodox..for example.
I also know, that my father, who was a gentile, was perfectly welcome to attend services, say prayers, etc. without converting.
Each persons journey is individual, and each congregation is a bit different. Just as episcopalians and catholics are both christian...they have very different rules.
SnakeBabe
03-08-2008, 11:09 AM
If you do not believe in all of the faith is it really a conversion?
Hugs and Hissessss,
Maria
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 11:24 AM
I was not saying that the conversion was "simple" I was merely trying to point out, without going into great detail, that the rules you are expected to follow under reform judaism are very different than orthodox..for example.
I also know, that my father, who was a gentile, was perfectly welcome to attend services, say prayers, etc. without converting.
Each persons journey is individual, and each congregation is a bit different. Just as episcopalians and catholics are both christian...they have very different rules.
my fiance, who is southern baptist by birth, has been welcomed graciously at hassidic services and events in my community. I've never met a Rabbi who was anything but completely accepting of visitors.
In fact, I recently went to a charity event one night when Rob was at work, and I had quite a few people ask where he was!
Also, no one has ever asked him if he wanted to "convert" or implied AT ALL that he should.
I know the more orthadox and hessidic are often thought as unaccepting, but they really are not.
Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 11:28 AM
^^^ Very true. Chasidim have been nothing but lovely and welcoming in my experience. I can't actually be a Chasid but I love their community so much!
And yeah, Reform aren't necessarily as strict with observance, but you still need to know what all the laws are. Reform Judaism isn't Christianity without Jesus, it's about understanding the tradition and finding the elements within it that are meaningful to you. That still takes a lot of time and study, and plenty of Reform Jews are quite observant.
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 11:30 AM
Lola's post is dead-on. And whoever said on page one that conversion within the Reform movement was "simple" doesn't know what they're talking about - it takes years of study, a beit din and mikvah just like in any other movement.
Don't rush it, Lys. Join the community with the understanding that it may be a few years before you're ready to get wet. Read all the books you can (you could fill whole libraries with books on Judaism); I especially recommend Harold Kushner's To Life! and Anita Diamant's Choosing a Jewish Life. Start out by lighting candles on Friday night and gradually expand your observance from there. Passover is coming up, and a seder is a wonderful time to learn more about what it means to be Jewish. You can meet with a rabbi at any time you like, but the rabbi will not formalize your conversion for another few years until you both are completely ready. I met with a rabbi every week for about two years until my conversion was final.
What movement are you looking at? All non-Orthodox movements (and in fact some Orthodox congregations) walk under the "progressive" umbrella. It sounds like you're going for Reform or Reconstructionist - I don't know if there's a Reconstructionist congregation in Brisbane but it sounds like the best fit for you.
PM me anytime! I'm trying to get back into Judaism after some lax observance and I'd love to share with you. Oh, BTW, I've never met a Jewish guy who wasn't already married to his mother, so get used that stereotype, LOL!
Lol :) totally true, jewish men are almost always mamma's boys! :P
Me too Yek. I got really far away, and it makes me sad. I'm working on doing more and more, making sure I bake challah, bentching more often, and also praying before bed. These "baby steps" are really the way to go.
I've seen so many people go head over heals, and at that point, it's really just overwhelming, and very easy to give up all together. I heard a rabbi (at a bal chuva lecture) say, one thing a week, at most, and maybe even 1 new thing a month.
Katrine
03-08-2008, 11:32 AM
Jewish people, of pretty much any type, will welcome you to their shabbos table just b/c of your interest.
I have found that to be untrue, although not always. There are some Jewish people who are very unwelcoming of half-breeds. That's fine though, I know many more that are kind and welcome. But its an inclusive religion. They may welcome her for Shabbos, but she will not truly be a jew until she takes the proper steps. Even then, it will be different.
I'm only speaking from my experience of growing up with other eastern euro jews who married gentil, then had the spouse try and convert.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 12:54 PM
Um... I don't get why people are saying not to convert when it's what I want to do because it 'is hard' and/or because I can do it without converting. I kinda don't really think I can. You kinda need a rabbi to convert you or you're not considered Jewish at all and that's what I want to be. Also, I know damn well it's hard. I already knew that walking in. I don't care if it takes years - it's something I am fond of and hold respect for.
The place I'm planning on attending next Saturday has the first rule of 'We do not judge people for who they are or what they have done - we just all want to share ourselves together'. And I like and respect that.
And I don't know a SINGLE person that believes in 'all of the faith' of ANY religion that has technically fully converted. How many fricken Christians do you know that wear two types of fabric? How many Mormons own TVs? How many do you know that go, "Well the book of XXYYZ says this, I don't know that that means, so I don't really follow it?"
Saying I can't be a religion because I don't believe in ALL of it, is silly. Sure, I can kinda see the part where I don't believe in a god now as silly when talking of religions - but not the 'All' part.
I don't want to go through the motions. I want to convert. I'm willing to take classes. I'm willing to take years. I'm just wondering if my non belief of God (or G-d, since it is offensive to say his name, I suppose) will hinder my actual belief in Judaism as a lifestyle more than a religion.
I like the people. I like the food. I like the respect. I like the morals. I like the hard work. The parts I don't or can't do I like - because I respect the reasoning behind those choices. It seems Jews don't do things 'just because' like some religions. They have a REASON for every one of their little things.. and it's the reasons I respect. Maybe I can't do them or be them or say them, but I can look at why they do it and go, "Fair enough, I see where you're coming from there."
Bah. Either way, going next Saturday and excited!
hardkandee
03-08-2008, 01:11 PM
Absolutely check out a seder this Passover. After all these years, I find most of the ritual aspects of religion stale, but the seder is still something special.
http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm
I wish I could ship you some challah, but I have a feeling it wouldn't arrive in the feak of freshness. :-\
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 01:18 PM
HAHAHAHAHHAA JEWFAQ.ORG....AHAHHAHAHAHA....
Oh my god. Sorry, I know you were helping and being totally awesome but... JEWFAQ.ORG!
Like... Jew....FAQ....JEWFAQ... hahahahahaha....
Whew... I'm done....
JEWFAQ!
A place near me makes challah every Friday only... but I work. :( :(
kitana
03-08-2008, 01:35 PM
Thank you.. because I had actually wanted to convert to Judaism. :)
Feel free to PM me about it as well.
I convered to Judaism years ago.
It's not easy to convert and be prepared to get "turned away" a few times before a rabbi will say ok, let's do this. It took me about a year for the full process.
I converted cause it felt right deep down ya know? And while I miss ham and cheese sandwiches, it's easier every day, lol! ;)
If you aren't 100% sure about your reasons for Judaism, try Noahide.
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 01:35 PM
I'm not saying you should not convert just that you should have a very good idea of what it is you're converting to. What is your knoweledge of Judiasm? What is your firsthand experience of it?
The jewish "lifestyle" is primarily based around G-d. Every rule is b/c G-d said so, although there may be additional, lesser, reasons. So yes, imo, not believing in G-d at all would definatly hinder the longgevity of your fracticing the lifestyle, imo. Be straight up with the rabbi you meet. Ask him his opinion. I'm quite interested to know what he'll say.
I'm all for you making changes and adapting the practice of it to whatever your comfort level is, but it's not Judiasm without G-d. It's just a neat lifestyle.
The central prayer of Judiasm is the shema.
- the parts I found most important for you to understand are :loving G-d, and jewish unity.
katrine, I guess my experiences are much different then yours. I'm sorry it is that way.
Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 01:44 PM
It's not easy to convert and be prepared to get "turned away" a few times before a rabbi will say ok, let's do this.
Jewish law mandates this. The prospective convert should be rejected three times in order to make sure s/he really understands and appreciates the burden and genuinely wants it. It's much easier to be a righteous gentile than a righteous Jew. (I'm sure you know this already, kitana; I'm explaining for Lysondra's benefit.)
Not sure why you're laughing, Lys, JewFAQ is a great site and very informative.
I really think you'd be a perfect fit with Reconstructionist Judaism. Here's an explanation on and the . I don't know if there are any Reconstructionist congregations in Australia though.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 01:45 PM
With the immense shortage of Rabbis where I live (I found a whole three), I'm worried about being honest with my opinion. I fully expect to be turned down a few times (I even heard it was tradition, hahaha). I'm just worried I'll f* my chances over for good if I say, "Look, I like praying, I like lighting candles, I like the release I get, I like everything except for that whole pesky God part." I light the candles out of respect for Judaism. I pray to release myself of my inner demons to nobody in particular. I am willing to do most of the stuff Judaism asks, just not the part where I believe in God (and since I don't believe him but want to be Jewish, should I still say G-d? Out of respect for Jews who believe his name should not be said or at the same time since I don't think he exists, is he God? CONFUSING!)
I have met and known a lot of Jews. While not ever been fully enveloped in a Jewish religion (which is what I hope the classes teach me before full conversion in a few years) I have found that I am quite fond of the 'personality' Judaism brings in people - and I want to be that kind of person. I
have always found Jews to be understanding and calm about explaining their religion to dumbfounded people, how they don't pressure conversion, how they smile with an honesty of what they do, how they believe in hard work and perserverence. It comes as a package deal with being Jewish. I respect Jews, I respect Jewish culture and I want to convert because it makes me happy. Because I believe in the people and the idea and find release in the rituals and solace in the synagogues (where I always feel nervous in churches...odd).... I just... don't believe in God.
I know, it's fucking weird to me, too.
Obviously inner turmoil here.
Hope no one thinks I'm arguing with them. I'm arguing with myself in my head, too... so anything I throw out into this thread is just a thought train.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 01:46 PM
Jewish law mandates this. The prospective convert should be rejected three times in order to make sure s/he really understands and appreciates the burden and genuinely wants it. It's much easier to be a righteous gentile than a righteous Jew. (I'm sure you know this already, kitana; I'm explaining for Lysondra's benefit.)
Not sure why you're laughing, Lys, JewFAQ is a great site and very informative.
I really think you'd be a perfect fit with Reconstructionist Judaism. Here's an explanation on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstructionist_Judaism) and the Jewish Reconstructionist Federation website (http://www.jrf.org/). I don't know if there are any Reconstructionist congregations in Australia though.
I knew that already. The whole '3 times things'.
And I just think the website name itself is funny. The site is great - it was the name that made me giggle. Just so nonchalant. Jewfaq. Frequently asked questions! About Jews! (Not websites, not a product...Jews! Real live faqs.. about Jews!)
Thank you for the links!!
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 01:49 PM
Now I'm wondering if I really don't believe in G-d or if I do but don't wanna admit it... wtf? I need to stop thinking after 6am.
Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 01:51 PM
The jewish "lifestyle" is primarily based around G-d. Every rule is b/c G-d said so, although there may be additional, lesser, reasons. So yes, imo, not believing in G-d at all would definatly hinder the longgevity of your fracticing the lifestyle, imo. Be straight up with the rabbi you meet. Ask him his opinion. I'm quite interested to know what he'll say.
I'm all for you making changes and adapting the practice of it to whatever your comfort level is, but it's not Judiasm without G-d. It's just a neat lifestyle.
Not necessarily in the more liberal movements. I recommended Kushner's book not just because it's awesome, but there's a great chapter on how G-d is not the sole focus of Jewish life; community is. And actions are far more valuable than beliefs. It doesn't matter if you keep kosher because G-d said so or because you find beauty and meaning in it, what's important is that you keep kosher (just as an example). If you live righteously, as a contributing member of your community, it doesn't matter whether you believe in G-d or not. We have survived for this long as a people not because of our beliefs, but because of our community and our traditions.
I do believe in G-d, mind, and I agree with you that G-d is an important part of Judaism. But He isn't the most important part and one can definitely be a liberal Jewish atheist. Besides, you're right in that very often the traditions lead us to the faith later on.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 01:55 PM
Not necessarily in the more liberal movements. I recommended Kushner's book not just because it's awesome, but there's a great chapter on how G-d is not the sole focus of Jewish life; community is. And actions are far more valuable than beliefs. It doesn't matter if you keep kosher because G-d said so or because you find beauty and meaning in it, what's important is that you keep kosher (just as an example). If you live righteously, as a contributing member of your community, it doesn't matter whether you believe in G-d or not. We have survived for this long as a people not because of our beliefs, but because of our community and our traditions.
I do believe in G-d, mind, and I agree with you that G-d is an important part of Judaism. But He isn't the most important part and one can definitely be a liberal Jewish atheist. Besides, you're right in that very often the traditions lead us to the faith later on.
Yesyesyes!! This is exactly how I feel!! Like, this is the exact reason I want to be Jewish nailed on the head.
I am willing to follow everything through, but I worried because people said it was 'shallow' to pray for me and not to G-d when converting to a religion. I'd be kosher out of respect for my fellow Jews and I'd light my candles and I'd go to Shabbat and everything.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 01:56 PM
^ Oooh, which I guess answers my question about the G-d/God part. I'll call him G-d, out of respect for the Jews. Nifty, answered my own question with Yek's help!
Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 01:56 PM
Lysondra, asking complicated questions about the nature of G-d and your own faith is a big part of being Jewish. ;) No worries, it's totally fine to question and debate with yourself and whoever else!
I don't necessarily believe in G-d as an old man in the sky who will reward me if I'm good and punish me if I'm bad. That's a child's view of faith. I think G-d is that unexplainable thing that makes us intelligent, self-aware, and arbiters of good and evil. I don't know if it's an external consciousness or a shared consciousness, or Dust if you read the Pullman books, but it's whatever has imbued our lives with depth, meaning, and continuity.
Oh, and when typing online "G-d" or "God" is fine. I just type G-d out of habit because I write it that way. The idea is that you don't write it out (or the actual Name of G-d, the one we can't write or speak) because then you don't want to throw away that piece of paper or otherwise inappropriately dispose of it. It's just a respect thing.
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 01:56 PM
ok, first of all, to the thread title question:
yes. yes, the RIGHT reason to convert is that anything else would break your heart day after day. You couldn't be happy unless you convert, and that you KNOW the missing piece of yourself is in that religion. And most of all, b/c you want to honor the G-d of that religion, and cannot find another way to do so.
With the immense shortage of Rabbis where I live (I found a whole three), I'm worried about being honest with my opinion. I fully expect to be turned down a few times (I even heard it was tradition, hahaha). I'm just worried I'll f* my chances over for good if I say, "Look, I like praying, I like lighting candles, I like the release I get, I like everything except for that whole pesky God part." I light the candles out of respect for Judaism. I pray to release myself of my inner demons to nobody in particular. I am willing to do most of the stuff Judaism asks, just not the part where I believe in God (and since I don't believe him but want to be Jewish, should I still say G-d? Out of respect for Jews who believe his name should not be said or at the same time since I don't think he exists, is he God? CONFUSING!)
I have met and known a lot of Jews. While not ever been fully enveloped in a Jewish religion (which is what I hope the classes teach me before full conversion in a few years) I have found that I am quite fond of the 'personality' Judaism brings in people - and I want to be that kind of person. I
have always found Jews to be understanding and calm about explaining their religion to dumbfounded people, how they don't pressure conversion, how they smile with an honesty of what they do, how they believe in hard work and perserverence. It comes as a package deal with being Jewish. I respect Jews, I respect Jewish culture and I want to convert because it makes me happy. Because I believe in the people and the idea and find release in the rituals and solace in the synagogues (where I always feel nervous in churches...odd).... I just... don't believe in God.
I know, it's fucking weird to me, too.
Obviously inner turmoil here.
Hope no one thinks I'm arguing with them. I'm arguing with myself in my head, too... so anything I throw out into this thread is just a thought train.
I don't think you are arguing. I do think your confused though, so I suppose we're agreed.
You can say G-d however you wish to. B/c it's more comfortable for me, I'm going to type hashem, which means the name.
it makes sense that you feel more comfortable in a synogogue, they are often a low pressure enviroment. It's a lot less likely to be all this is the only way, the right way, this or hell. In my experience, churches are like this. I'm sure not all of them, but everyone I've been in.
If you're going to attemt to convert under false pretenses, you might as well save your time. Conversion is accepting and finding your jewish soul at the bottom of it. If you don't believe in hashem, you cannot do that, obviously. If you're not willing to tell a rabbi how you really feel, 100%, it's not even worth bringing up the conversation about conversion.
Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 02:01 PM
If you're not willing to tell a rabbi how you really feel, 100%, it's not even worth bringing up the conversation about conversion.
Absolutely true. Totally true about the Jewish soul too; I knew I was Jewish when I was a little kid. But it sounds like Lysondra's at a good point for an early exploratory stage and that's fine.
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 02:02 PM
Yek, ya, ultimatly, the practice of it is the mitzvot, not the why. But I don't think someone is going to keep kosher just because as a lifelong habit, and not as a mitzvot. Without the belief, the beauty is gone.
for me, the beauty of judiasm is that there are so many questions, and so few answers. But still, people do what they are supposed to do, not out of blind faith, but out of just..... the knowledge, deep down, that it is what hashem wants us to do.
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 02:02 PM
Absolutely true. Totally true about the Jewish soul too; I knew I was Jewish when I was a little kid. But it sounds like Lysondra's at a good point for an early exploratory stage and that's fine.
I agree. I'm 100% supportive of her exploring and learning.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:04 PM
I would be willing to tell a Rabbi how I felt if there weren't so few of them where I live. There's THREE. Which means if one disagrees, I pretty much fucked up my chances with ALL of them (as I'm sure they talk) and can't convert in my home town or anywhere nearby. I would gladly admit my reasons were I not a bit hesitant about the fact the Rabbis nere here might not be fond of it whereas Rabbis of Yek's mentioning would be. It's just, I have like one whole chance and don't wanna screw up. It's like I wouldn't tell someone I'm a stripper the first time I met them because I might screw up. I'm sure I'd tell him eventually - but I don't want to have the most awkward conversation ever, y'know?
And CHRIST what's with the big letters? I don't want to honour G-d by converting, I want to honour Judaism and I believe G-d exists for THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM. But I don't - so he doesn't exist for me. So I respect OTHERS decision to believe in G-d because I know he's real to them. I respect Jews belief in G-d, even if I don't believe in him myself.
And even if I am ALONE in a church and ALONE in a synagogue, I feel more at home in the latter. I just don't feel... confined. I feel free to express my true feelings on the inside without being DAMNED TO IT ALL for thinking a bad thought in church.
And I've decided to say G-d out of respect for the Jews.
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 02:05 PM
Now I'm wondering if I really don't believe in G-d or if I do but don't wanna admit it... wtf? I need to stop thinking after 6am.
this is sort of where I'm thinking as well. why would you really want to do this if you don't?
it seems awfully dificult to do if you don't have your heart really in it, if there is no belief there.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:05 PM
I would tell a Rabbi.. just not the very first meeting, yannow? I just kinda want to get the feel for the guy first before I explain. I just feel kinda...awkward about it, is all.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:06 PM
this is sort of where I'm thinking as well. why would you really want to do this if you don't?
it seems awfully dificult to do if you don't have your heart really in it, if there is no belief there.
You're not getting this. MY HEART IS REALLY IN IT. I BELIEVE IN JUDAISM JUST NOT GOD.
It makes sense in my head anyway.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:07 PM
Lysondra, asking complicated questions about the nature of G-d and your own faith is a big part of being Jewish. ;) No worries, it's totally fine to question and debate with yourself and whoever else!
I don't necessarily believe in G-d as an old man in the sky who will reward me if I'm good and punish me if I'm bad. That's a child's view of faith. I think G-d is that unexplainable thing that makes us intelligent, self-aware, and arbiters of good and evil. I don't know if it's an external consciousness or a shared consciousness, or Dust if you read the Pullman books, but it's whatever has imbued our lives with depth, meaning, and continuity.
Oh, and when typing online "G-d" or "God" is fine. I just type G-d out of habit because I write it that way. The idea is that you don't write it out (or the actual Name of G-d, the one we can't write or speak) because then you don't want to throw away that piece of paper or otherwise inappropriately dispose of it. It's just a respect thing.
Posts can be deleted. I have chosen G-d because I don't want his name deleted out of respect for the Jews that believe in him.
Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 02:09 PM
Yek, ya, ultimatly, the practice of it is the mitzvot, not the why. But I don't think someone is going to keep kosher just because as a lifelong habit, and not as a mitzvot. Without the belief, the beauty is gone.
Well, I don't keep kosher because G-d said so. I keep kosher because I think it makes better people and better communities; it instills a respect and consideration for the animals we eat and the world we live in, it pushes us to pay attention to what we put in our bodies and how it affects our souls (garbage in, garbage out), because millions of Jews before me kept kosher and I'm part of that tradition, because it makes me a higher being. I think that's just as respectable as doing it for the mitzvah (although in my opinion, I AM doing it for the mitzvah because this is the result of the mitzvah).
"Doing Jewish" is like keeping office hours, so that when G-d wants to speak He knows where to find you. I used to be extremely observant, and there were a lot of days I'd say my prayers and it was just going through the motions, and I'd order the pasta without shrimp just because it was my habit. But when I really needed guidance and spirituality, I discovered that it came when I was doing those little habits that kept me connected. It could be that Lysondra just hasn't found G-d yet because she hasn't been looking for Him.
Katrine
03-08-2008, 02:09 PM
Now I'm wondering if I really don't believe in G-d or if I do but don't wanna admit it... wtf? I need to stop thinking after 6am.
As Lola said, there is no judaism without god. Judeo-christian religion stems from believe in an ominpotent and omnipresent creator being. Obviously, we all know that. I'm just saying...if you don't believe in god (right on) you can't really be a jew. But you can always pretend, I do sometimes.
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 02:10 PM
I would be willing to tell a Rabbi how I felt if there weren't so few of them where I live. There's THREE. Which means if one disagrees, I pretty much fucked up my chances with ALL of them (as I'm sure they talk) and can't convert in my home town or anywhere nearby. I would gladly admit my reasons were I not a bit hesitant about the fact the Rabbis nere here might not be fond of it whereas Rabbis of Yek's mentioning would be. It's just, I have like one whole chance and don't wanna screw up. It's like I wouldn't tell someone I'm a stripper the first time I met them because I might screw up. I'm sure I'd tell him eventually - but I don't want to have the most awkward conversation ever, y'know?
And CHRIST what's with the big letters? I don't want to honour G-d by converting, I want to honour Judaism and I believe G-d exists for THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM. But I don't - so he doesn't exist for me. So I respect OTHERS decision to believe in G-d because I know he's real to them. I respect Jews belief in G-d, even if I don't believe in him myself.
And even if I am ALONE in a church and ALONE in a synagogue, I feel more at home in the latter. I just don't feel... confined. I feel free to express my true feelings on the inside without being DAMNED TO IT ALL for thinking a bad thought in church.
And I've decided to say G-d out of respect for the Jews.
I just wanted to make sure you were reading :P
Did you read the shama article? To me, that is what it is about.
I understand you not wanting to talk to a rabbi about it. But I really think you're missing the point. You need a rabbi's guidance to convert, and he cannot guide you without knowing how you really feel.
as for your example of not telling you're a stripper, it's nothing like that. It'm more like ommiting the fact that the check is bad, as you pay someone with it. :-\
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:11 PM
I fully believe in Judaism. I believe in the people and the structure and the reasoning. I see beauty in Judaism, I respect Judaism. I can see where it's coming from, I can see what they're trying to accomplish, I can see what they want to do in their lives. I get it. It's a religion I get AND respect AND believe in. Even if -I- don't believe in G-d, I respect the way the Jews DO believe in him and the way they tie their faith in him. I believe in them believing in him... does that make sense?
I want to convert because I believe in Judaism. I believe in it's core, in it's essense...and I DO see the beauty... otherwise what's the point, as you said?
It's every part BUT the G-d part I like and feel is right for me. When I light candles, I will do it because I believe it is RIGHT for what I feel. I won't do it for G-d because I don't believe, but I will do it for the Jews.
AGGGHHHH IT MAKES SENSE IN MY HEAD.
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 02:13 PM
You're not getting this. MY HEART IS REALLY IN IT. I BELIEVE IN JUDAISM JUST NOT GOD.
It makes sense in my head anyway.
well then, it's like yek said about keeping kosher. It really is just going through the motions. But that tiny little spark of something, that thing that makes judiasm special. That's hashem. And from your posts, that's the part you want most.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:13 PM
I just wanted to make sure you were reading :P
Did you read the shama article? To me, that is what it is about.
I understand you not wanting to talk to a rabbi about it. But I really think you're missing the point. You need a rabbi's guidance to convert, and he cannot guide you without knowing how you really feel.
as for your example of not telling you're a stripper, it's nothing like that. It'm more like ommiting the fact that the check is bad, as you pay someone with it. :-\
Yeah, but we're also most likely talking about two completely different sects of Judaism.
Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 02:14 PM
Judeo-christian religion
*bristle*
That phrase is like fingernails on a chalkboard every time I hear it. There is no such thing, none whatsoever. Judaism and Christianity are RADICALLY different. You might as well say "Islamo-Buddhist."
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 02:14 PM
As Lola said, there is no judaism without god. Judeo-christian religion stems from believe in an ominpotent and omnipresent creator being. Obviously, we all know that. I'm just saying...if you don't believe in god (right on) you can't really be a jew. But you can always pretend, I do sometimes.
yep. Going through the motions. To me, it's like, you can read a book, but if you don't pay attention, you won't get anything out of it.
Katrine
03-08-2008, 02:15 PM
But religion makes no sense. You don't have to be an apologist or fundamentalist, but judaism, like all the others, is based n your belief and following of their dogma. Cultures and traditions are secondary.
Its like AA, at first they tell you that you can pick and choose what appeals to you, but once you are in their, bam, shock to the system. You must accept and submit, all or nothing.
Religion is a crock. Judaism has some good stuff in it, and jews rock the house. But its not all about the fun traditions, you are still "god's" minion. If that makes your stomach turn (it does mine), then they will not likely accept you in the process of conversion.
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 02:16 PM
*bristle*
That phrase is like fingernails on a chalkboard every time I hear it. There is no such thing, none whatsoever. Judaism and Christianity are RADICALLY different. You might as well say "Islamo-Buddhist."
to me she was just refering to the one G-d thing. /:O
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:17 PM
I think it's kinda cruel to say I'd 'just be going through the motions' when I fully have my heart into something that means a lot to me. It's hurtful, really. It's like saying I'm just bullshitting because I think it's fun.
Fuck, fine, I'll tell the Rabbi the first time I meet him. I just didn't want to fuck up the first meetup without getting a feel for him, but okiedokie. Whatever, it seems to make you happy to hear what someone else has to say to me.
I don't wanna pretend to be a Jew. I want to be a Jew. :(
Katrine
03-08-2008, 02:17 PM
*bristle*
That phrase is like fingernails on a chalkboard every time I hear it. There is no such thing, none whatsoever. Judaism and Christianity are RADICALLY different. You might as well say "Islamo-Buddhist."
I'm sorry, not trying to be incindiary towards you. How about monotheistic religion adapted in the western world?
BTW, I do respect everyone's beliefs. I know its important to you. So when I slam religion, please do not take it personally. I admire your faith.
Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 02:19 PM
No worries, a lot of people think Judaism is just Christianity without Jesus or "Old Testament" Christianity. The fundamental beliefs and understandings are so very, very different, most people in the USA (and Australia) have no idea.
Katrine
03-08-2008, 02:19 PM
I think it's kinda cruel to say I'd 'just be going through the motions' when I fully have my heart into something that means a lot to me. It's hurtful, really. It's like saying I'm just bullshitting because I think it's fun.
Fuck, fine, I'll tell the Rabbi the first time I meet him. I just didn't want to fuck up the first meetup without getting a feel for him, but okiedokie. Whatever, it seems to make you happy to hear what someone else has to say to me.
I don't wanna pretend to be a Jew. I want to be a Jew. :(
BTW, I know you are serious. I know EXACTLY where you are coming from. I wanted to be a jew too at one point. When I began to apply towards the process was when I found out how strict and elitist the religion really is. Now, I think its neat. Back then, I was very angry that I was told I had no right to step foot into synagogue.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:19 PM
http://www.bpjc.org.au <-- the place I was planning on going, if anyone wants to know.
Katrine
03-08-2008, 02:20 PM
No worries, a lot of people think Judaism is just Christianity without Jesus or "Old Testament" Christianity. The fundamental beliefs and understandings are so very, very different, most people in the USA (and Australia) have no idea.
No, I know exactly what Judaism is, and what its about. I was raised immersed in the religion and culture. I studied it as well. I was just using "judeo-christian" as a term. But believe me, I know what I am talking about when I reference Judaism.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:20 PM
BTW, I know you are serious. I know EXACTLY where you are coming from. I wanted to be a jew too at one point. When I began to apply towards the process was when I found out how strict and elitist the religion really is. Now, I think its neat. Back then, I was very angry that I was told I had no right to step foot into synagogue.
Thank you. I just keep feeling like I'm getting told I'm a little kid playing with mummy's makeup when I'm a big girl making a big decision for what I believe is right for me. I'm not pretending to be Jewish, I want to BE Jewish. And as Yek pointed out quite a few times in her examples; you can be a Jewish atheist. And as Lola pointed out in hers; you also can't be.
This sucks.