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Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 02:21 PM
I think it's kinda cruel to say I'd 'just be going through the motions' when I fully have my heart into something that means a lot to me. It's hurtful, really. It's like saying I'm just bullshitting because I think it's fun.

Fuck, fine, I'll tell the Rabbi the first time I meet him. I just didn't want to fuck up the first meetup without getting a feel for him, but okiedokie. Whatever, it seems to make you happy to hear what someone else has to say to me.

I don't wanna pretend to be a Jew. I want to be a Jew. :(

I do not want to hurt you, or see you be hurt. I am just interested in leaning what a rabbi would say when hearing that. I also never said you need to say anything to him the first time you meet. I acvtually sugguested you not say anything about conversion for a while.

I'm sorry that you think it is cruel, but that is my opinion. I'm not trying to be hurtful. I just see no sense in it.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:24 PM
Thanks Lola :hug:. I know religious debates get heated sometimes and we just all want the best for eachother (and THIS I see you doing is another Jewish trait I admire)... and it sometimes just gets... like we're both hitting our heads against walls.

I think we just both believe in different types of Judaism. I'm leaning more Progressive.

And how do you hang around a synagogue when you're not Jewish without mentioning conversion anyway? Hi, Rabbi, how are you? I'm new. Jewish? Nah, I was jus' hangin' wit' da homies at Pesachzzzzzz'

Katrine
03-08-2008, 02:24 PM
I don't think Lola is being cruel. She is pointing out some things you will face. You can't really be a jewish atheist.

Yek, I am curious about how that works. For example, I only see one as being a jewish atheist if they were born carrying the jewish claim from at least their mother's side, but not actually practicing. They are still a jew, technically.

It gets confusing when the lines between religion and ethnic group blurs. Because the religion is so inclusive, it tends to have specific groups of people associated with it. Judaism is a complex beast.

Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 02:25 PM
I just read your last post on pg 4 lys, and I really do want you to know, I do sort of Get what you mean, at least to the greatest extent that I can. I am just trying to share with you what I know and believe. I feel like you're sort of pegging me as the attacker, but I really am not. I'm not perfect, I don't do this all right. Right now, I can't. I do the best I can, I be as "jewish" as I can, today.

:hug:

hardkandee
03-08-2008, 02:27 PM
Religion is a crock. Judaism has some good stuff in it, and jews rock the house. But its not all about the fun traditions, you are still "god's" minion. If that makes your stomach turn (it does mine), then they will not likely accept you in the process of conversion.

I grew up in a very religious household and have to admit ^this is where I am now. I'm happy I grew up in a Jewish home but I've lost any type of god years ago.
That being said, I think it's refreshing to hear someone is interested in pursuing Judaism. And perhaps there is a way to be Jewish without a god, especially if you have an interest in the ritualistic aspect.

Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 02:29 PM
Lysondra, I think you should get involved in the community and go to services before you sit down with the rabbi to talk about conversion. Read books. I spent seven years studying Judaism before I started the conversion process, which took another two years. Read absolutely everything you can, even if it doesn't seem to apply to you. Go to Bible study. You don't have to convert to participate. If anyone asks, just say you're exploring and that should be fine. (Unlike me, you don't have the burden of light hair, which for some reason attracts people who want to play the name game and question your Jew Cred.)

Also consider that Lola and I are coming from very different viewpoints. I converted under Conservative and Reform rabbis and she was raised Orthodox. I used to keep Orthodox observance and I still go to services at Chabad once in awhile, but liberal Judaism is MUCH less focused on G-d than Orthodoxy is. Lola's right, in Orthodoxy everything is because of G-d... you might say that in Orthodoxy, the community is a function of G-d, where in liberal movements G-d is a function of the community.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:29 PM
Ahahaha, I like how we came to the conclusion to try to understand eachother at the same time. That's awesomely cool.

And Kat, Yek pointed out a few times how you can be an atheist Jew. She gets what I mean and where I'm going with this while Lola is more *ahem* Hasidic than I intend to be and doesn't get the point without God. We all just have different views on what Judaism means to us, I think.

Which FUNNY enough was the entire point of my thread.... does having a different than conventional interpretation of Judaism make it any less so? Is there really a right reason to convert or a wrong reason? If I just liked the colour candles at a service and converted purely out of that but did EVERYTHING else and accepting everything... is that still wrong? Is it right?

Whoa, now it's 730 in the morning, I haven't slept in 24 hours and I'm being all philisphical. Cool.

Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 02:29 PM
Thanks Lola :hug:. I know religious debates get heated sometimes and we just all want the best for eachother (and THIS I see you doing is another Jewish trait I admire)... and it sometimes just gets... like we're both hitting our heads against walls.

I think we just both believe in different types of Judaism. I'm leaning more Progressive.

And how do you hang around a synagogue when you're not Jewish without mentioning conversion anyway? Hi, Rabbi, how are you? I'm new. Jewish? Nah, I was jus' hangin' wit' da homies at Pesachzzzzzz'

just say you'd like to learn more about the religion, that something about it just interests you. I'd actually just call, and find out times (or look on the site) and just go, and watch, participate, and learn. After a while, then ask to meet with the rabbi, to talk. Most rabbis mingle a lot, after services and events, so you can say hello a few times. I doubt he'd ask are you jewish.

also, every different type of judiasm is different in to what extent they do things, but there are some key constants. hashem is one of them, and a tendancy to be tough on people converting, or considering it, is another.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:30 PM
Dude, we all came to the same conclusion at the same time and that's awesome.

hardkandee
03-08-2008, 02:32 PM
I don't think Lola is being cruel. She is pointing out some things you will face.

Especially when you come in contact with more orthodox and close-minded Jews. There are sects that won't recognize conservatives, reformists or progressives. Hell, I didn't know what a progressive Judaism was until a couple weeks ago. I thought someone was making a joke.
Even if you do eventually convert, there are those that will consider you a "pretend" Jew. The climate is generally more welcoming now, but there are always more conservative opinions out there.

Katrine
03-08-2008, 02:34 PM
Ahahaha, I like how we came to the conclusion to try to understand eachother at the same time. That's awesomely cool.

And Kat, Yek pointed out a few times how you can be an atheist Jew. She gets what I mean and where I'm going with this while Lola is more *ahem* Hasidic than I intend to be and doesn't get the point without God. We all just have different views on what Judaism means to us, I think.

Which FUNNY enough was the entire point of my thread.... does having a different than conventional interpretation of Judaism make it any less so? Is there really a right reason to convert or a wrong reason? If I just liked the colour candles at a service and converted purely out of that but did EVERYTHING else and accepting everything... is that still wrong? Is it right?
.

Honey, its a religion, there are guidelines and set pedantry. You can't just pick and choose the fundamentals, although there is much more variety in the lifestyle and activities.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:34 PM
Lysondra, I think you should get involved in the community and go to services before you sit down with the rabbi to talk about conversion. Read books. I spent seven years studying Judaism before I started the conversion process, which took another two years. Read absolutely everything you can, even if it doesn't seem to apply to you. Go to Bible study. You don't have to convert to participate. If anyone asks, just say you're exploring and that should be fine. (Unlike me, you don't have the burden of light hair, which for some reason attracts people who want to play the name game and question your Jew Cred.)

Also consider that Lola and I are coming from very different viewpoints. I converted under Conservative and Reform rabbis and she was raised Orthodox. I used to keep Orthodox observance and I still go to services at Chabad once in awhile, but liberal Judaism is MUCH less focused on G-d than Orthodoxy is. Lola's right, in Orthodoxy everything is because of G-d... you might say that in Orthodoxy, the community is a function of G-d, where in liberal movements G-d is a function of the community.

See, I didn't see this as an option. I thought if you went to Pesach and Kabbalat Shabat... people would kinda go...wtf is the new chick doing here? Is she even Jewish?

You know... like a cheerleader suddenly sitting down at the goth kid table. There's like 10 whole Jews in my entire STATE... they're gonna notice if someone randomly pops up, y'know?

I figured I'd talk to a rabbi first so when I popped up in the back pew at Shabbat Kiddush next week he'd do his mingling and next thing I know... why are you even praying with us if you're not Jewish and haven't mentioned converting?

I planned on going to Shabbat anyway (I'm even looking forward to it!)... but I kinda didn't want to go without a Hey, New Chick in the Back...Yeah...Converting...Ignore me for now.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:35 PM
Especially when you come in contact with more orthodox and close-minded Jews. There are sects that won't recognize conservatives, reformists or progressives. Hell, I didn't know what a progressive Judaism was until a couple weeks ago. I thought someone was making a joke.
Even if you do eventually convert, there are those that will consider you a "pretend" Jew. The climate is generally more welcoming now, but there are always more conservative opinions out there.

Which is funny because Lola is Orthodox and is saying I'm a pretend Jew. So basically, I am being given a forsight into what I'll be undertaking when I convert. Good to know in advance.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:38 PM
Honey, its a religion, there are guidelines and set pedantry. You can't just pick and choose the fundamentals, although there is much more variety in the lifestyle and activities.

Pft... when I was a good little Christian girl going to Christian school, people sure as HELL picked and chose what they wanted. Dude even my school uniform in Christian school was a cotton/poly blend. I mean, really. That's against the bible. Saying you can't 'pick and chose' your beliefs in a religion is silly. NOBODY can control what they believe in and NOBODY is going to agree with 100% of something - ever. I have never seen a single Christian/Jew/Buddhist/Catholic/ChurchofEngland/Muslim do every. single. little. itty. bitty. thing. in a religion. They sure as FUCK pick and choose. Every one of them!

Dude, I've even seen some Hasidics doing a bit of the naughty involving some things.

Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 02:38 PM
Lysondra, I think you should get involved in the community and go to services before you sit down with the rabbi to talk about conversion. Read books. I spent seven years studying Judaism before I started the conversion process, which took another two years. Read absolutely everything you can, even if it doesn't seem to apply to you. Go to Bible study. You don't have to convert to participate. If anyone asks, just say you're exploring and that should be fine. (Unlike me, you don't have the burden of light hair, which for some reason attracts people who want to play the name game and question your Jew Cred.)

Also consider that Lola and I are coming from very different viewpoints. I converted under Conservative and Reform rabbis and she was raised Orthodox. I used to keep Orthodox observance and I still go to services at Chabad once in awhile, but liberal Judaism is MUCH less focused on G-d than Orthodoxy is. Lola's right, in Orthodoxy everything is because of G-d... you might say that in Orthodoxy, the community is a function of G-d, where in liberal movements G-d is a function of the community.

I do openly admit most of my knowledge of reform and less observant forms of judiasm is mostly textual. I never did realize it was so little focused on hashem..... The few reform services I've went to all seemed quite focused on hashem, as opposed to focused on the comunity


Ahahaha, I like how we came to the conclusion to try to understand eachother at the same time. That's awesomely cool.

And Kat, Yek pointed out a few times how you can be an atheist Jew. She gets what I mean and where I'm going with this while Lola is more *ahem* Hasidic than I intend to be and doesn't get the point without God. We all just have different views on what Judaism means to us, I think.

Which FUNNY enough was the entire point of my thread.... does having a different than conventional interpretation of Judaism make it any less so? Is there really a right reason to convert or a wrong reason? If I just liked the colour candles at a service and converted purely out of that but did EVERYTHING else and accepting everything... is that still wrong? Is it right?

Whoa, now it's 730 in the morning, I haven't slept in 24 hours and I'm being all philisphical. Cool.

definatly awesomely cool. Yek supplies a much diferent viewpoint then I do, that's for sure. I'm glad it works for you.

my most philisophical times tend to happen in times of little sleep. I've only slept 9 hours tin 3 days, in fact. Which is strange, i tend to be quite the sleepyhead.

I would like to understand what you mean about praying to yourself???? :O :O

Have you tried praying to g-d? Or just praying to say the words? Who knows, you may find you believe in things you don't know you do.

Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 02:39 PM
Definitely get a copy of . There's an excellent chapter on "What We Believe About G-d" and it completely nails it for me. I especially love this bit:


Moses Maimonides... taught that when we use human language to talk about G-d, we are being poetic, metaphorical. G-d is so totally Other that we cannot describe Him with words borrowed from descriptions of human beings. ... Maimonides went on to say that we can speak accurately (as opposed to metaphorically) about G-d only when we speak negatively, when we deny inaccurate statements about G-d. To say that "G-d exists" does not explain anything about G-d; it denies that G-d is a figment of our imagination... To say that "G-d hears our prayers" does not say anything about G-d; it rejects the idea that praying is a waste of time.

Oh, and there is no "conventional interpretation of Judaism." Two Jews, three opinions!

Katrine
03-08-2008, 02:40 PM
See, I didn't see this as an option. I thought if you went to Pesach and Kabbalat Shabat... people would kinda go...wtf is the new chick doing here? Is she even Jewish?

You know... like a cheerleader suddenly sitting down at the goth kid table. There's like 10 whole Jews in my entire STATE... they're gonna notice if someone randomly pops up, y'know?.

Yes, they absolutely will notice. Depending on the type of people they are (has little to do with religion, just some groups of people are unfriendly assholes) they might be warm and welcoming, or they may ignore you as an outsider and refuse to approach you.

When I went to temple as a kid, all the other kids were really nice, and we all played together. After everyone had their bar/bat mitztvah, I was treated as if I were invisible whenever I tried to join and participate. It was really heartbreaking. But this was a congregation of snooty Houston yuppies.

We had a much better time at the Lubovitch temple. My dad and I went for the holidays. Everyone there was SUPER warm and welcoming, I believe because Lubavitch is rooted in Ukrainian Jewry, and they considered my father a special person. The totally westernized, Conservative congregration, were different animals all together.

Reform temple was nice and friendly too. Its funny that I'm digging up all of these memories that I have not thought about in years since I shunned all religion.

This is a great thread, thanks to everyone for sharing and contributing.

hardkandee
03-08-2008, 02:40 PM
In an attempt to lighten this discussion, I suggest you get ready for Purim and make some shalach manot and bake some Hamantaschen.

I like poppy the best. :P
http://www.marthastewart.com/recipe/hamantaschen?autonomy_kw=hamantaschen

Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 02:41 PM
I really do not see that I am close-minded or w/ev....

in fact, I've done my best this whole time to be accepting and just try to share knowledge.

S/w seems to be getting very.... "if you don't agree with the OP, and treat them like glass, you're mean, closeminded, and unaccepting"

wtf?

Katrine
03-08-2008, 02:44 PM
Pft... when I was a good little Christian girl going to Christian school, people sure as HELL picked and chose what they wanted.

Christianity is a bit different. And as we've all discussed, there are some drastic variations to judaism. The main difference is that MOST christian denominations will accept you if you have accepts god and jesus into your lives. Some Christ. denominations have some more complex rituals in addition, but the criteria for inclusion tends to be easier. Hence the flexibility in picking and choosing beliefs.

If you know Judaism, you will see that there are many non-negotiable beliefs and rituals. Ultimately, if you don't believe in god, you really can't be neither jew, nor christian. That's rule number one.

Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 02:44 PM
I do openly admit most of my knowledge of reform and less observant forms of judiasm is mostly textual. I never did realize it was so little focused on hashem..... The few reform services I've went to all seemed quite focused on hashem, as opposed to focused on the comunity.

Services are religious, but how many Reform Jews go to services on a regular basis? Not many. And overall it's more centered around tradition and community than G-d. I'd hazard a guess that any Jewish Community Center in a decent-sized city will have hundreds of members who are enormously active in the community, completely focused on Judaism and Israel, raising Jewish kids in BBYO and Schechter schools, and who only go to synagogue for High Holidays.

Katrine
03-08-2008, 02:45 PM
I really do not see that I am close-minded or w/ev....

in fact, I've done my best this whole time to be accepting and just try to share knowledge.

S/w seems to be getting very.... "if you don't agree with the OP, and treat them like glass, you're mean, closeminded, and unaccepting"

wtf?

I really enjoy your contributions Lola, for the record, if it matters at all. Your knowledge and experience are invaluable here.

IrishMarc
03-08-2008, 02:45 PM
Religion is nonsensical bull shit.

Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 02:47 PM
Services are religious, but how many Reform Jews go to services on a regular basis? Not many. And overall it's more centered around tradition and community than G-d. I'd hazard a guess that any Jewish Community Center in a decent-sized city will have hundreds of members who are enormously active in the community, completely focused on Judaism and Israel, raising Jewish kids in BBYO and Schechter schools, and who only go to synagogue for High Holidays.

I do know that many people are like that. But only going on highholidays does not mean you believe any less. I do get your point tho.


I really enjoy your contributions Lola, for the record, if it matters at all. Your knowledge and experience are invaluable here.

thank you. I'm enjoying yours as well.

Katrine
03-08-2008, 02:47 PM
I'd hazard a guess that any Jewish Community Center in a decent-sized city.

Dude, lots of non-jews and halfsies like myself hung out at the JCC. They had all type of fun things for kids to do, and was the best community center close by, far superior to the YMCA. I can still smell the indoor pool and raquetball courts and transport to childhood memories, most of them overwhelmingly positive.

Sorry to keep turning this around me, but I can totally see how Lys would fall in love with the community and culture. OTOH, from a purely faith perspective, a rabbi will expect a certain buy-in close to what Lola is saying.

Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 02:48 PM
Religion is nonsensical bull shit.

ok, do you have anything to add that is even remotley on topic ::)

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:50 PM
I do openly admit most of my knowledge of reform and less observant forms of judiasm is mostly textual. I never did realize it was so little focused on hashem..... The few reform services I've went to all seemed quite focused on hashem, as opposed to focused on the comunity



definatly awesomely cool. Yek supplies a much diferent viewpoint then I do, that's for sure. I'm glad it works for you.

my most philisophical times tend to happen in times of little sleep. I've only slept 9 hours tin 3 days, in fact. Which is strange, i tend to be quite the sleepyhead.

I would like to understand what you mean about praying to yourself???? :O :O

Have you tried praying to g-d? Or just praying to say the words? Who knows, you may find you believe in things you don't know you do.

I pray to no one, technically. I pray FOR myself. Sorry, bad wording. I just pray sometimes. I pray because I have to. I pray because I need the release. I pray because I feel better. I pray because it makes me cry. I pray because I'm desperate. I pray because it feels right. I just pray. I don't know why. Maybe because I was raised super Christian? I don't believe in G-d (but I believe there is a chance at more gods... so polytheism).... but I believe in the release of prayer. I HAVE tried praying to G-d.

I lost faith in Him long ago. He has hurt me too much to exist if he's real and I can't go back in putting all my faith in someone that I once did as a child and getting handed the life I was. I did believe in him. I fucking did. I was a good Christian girl who went to church three times a week, prayed every night for my mummy and daddy, didn't eat cookies before dinner, only watched an hour or TV and obeyed every word of my teachers, ministers and parents. And do you know what that got me?! I know I've mentioned some horrific stuff on here about my childhood but I haven't mentioned even HALF of it. At seven I was raped by my father who had HPV and gave me cancer that left me unable to bear children. HOW FUCKED UP IS THAT? How fucked up is that for a little girl who put all her faith in someone who would 'always take care of her'... only to give her the life I was dealt. If G-d exists, than he is truly a cruel human being, because I did my DAMN best... and was fucked in the end. I just CANNOT believe that a loving caring God would be that fucking cruel to an honest caring loving child who prayed every night. I also have a hard time in believing ONE being can create everything. I can't do it. I just... can't. It's too much.

Fuck, I'm crying. I ranted and now this'll probably bite me in the ass. And just so you know, that little 'raped by my daddy' thing isn't even the most fucked up shit that happened in the years to follow up until recently.

I believed in G-d once, with my whole heart and soul. I won't do that again. I can't.

hardkandee
03-08-2008, 02:51 PM
I really do not see that I am close-minded or w/ev....

in fact, I've done my best this whole time to be accepting and just try to share knowledge.

S/w seems to be getting very.... "if you don't agree with the OP, and treat them like glass, you're mean, closeminded, and unaccepting"

wtf?

I wasn't directing my comment towards you. Just giving Lysondra a warning that no matter how far she takes it, even if she does convert, that she will considered a pretend Jew by some.
I had said orthodox and close-minded because there are many orthodox that now recognized the less stricter forms of Judaism. I don't think you are close-minded whatsoever.

When one of my cousins married a convert, it was seen as if he had married a non-Jew. My grandparents didn't even want the wedding to take place at our synagogue, a large part of which is actually named after my family. Slowly, as the years went by the fact that she's a convert was "forgiven" and she's now part of the family.
I just wanted to fore-warn about prejudices like that.

Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 02:51 PM
Dude, lots of non-jews and halfsies like myself hung out at the JCC. They had all type of fun things for kids to do, and was the best community center close by, far superior to the YMCA. I can still smell the indoor pool and raquetball courts and transport to childhood memories, most of them overwhelmingly positive.

Sorry to keep turning this around me, but I can totally see how Lys would fall in love with the community and culture. OTOH, from a purely faith perspective, a rabbi will expect a certain buy-in close to what Lola is saying.

ok, I think you summed up what I mean. It is perfectly fine (to me at least) for Lys to participate in the comunity, but the conversion is the religious part, and: no G-d, no religion.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:51 PM
I really do not see that I am close-minded or w/ev....

in fact, I've done my best this whole time to be accepting and just try to share knowledge.

S/w seems to be getting very.... "if you don't agree with the OP, and treat them like glass, you're mean, closeminded, and unaccepting"

wtf?

NONONONO.... I don't think that! I was just having a hard time wrapping myself around why you couldn't see my beliefs while I was trying to see yours. You're not closed minded at all..we just have different views on what Judaism means to us.

hardkandee
03-08-2008, 02:52 PM
Religion is nonsensical bull shit.

Huh. Thanks for the insight. Way to contribute.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:52 PM
Religion is nonsensical bull shit.

Okay... but that wasn't the topic? Like... at all?

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:54 PM
I wasn't directing my comment towards you. Just giving Lysondra a warning that no matter how far she takes it, even if she does convert, that she will considered a pretend Jew by some.
I had said orthodox and close-minded because there are many orthodox that now recognized the less stricter forms of Judaism. I don't think you are close-minded whatsoever.

When one of my cousins married a convert, it was seen as if he had married a non-Jew. My grandparents didn't even want the wedding to take place at our synagogue, a large part of which is actually named after my family. Slowly, as the years went by the fact that she's a convert was "forgiven" and she's now part of the family.
I just wanted to fore-warn about prejudices like that.

Hey, some Jews won't see me as real since it's not from birth. Some Jews won't see me as real if it's not Hasidic. It's good I learn that NOW as apposed to learning it harshly in the real world with people I put faith in, y'know? I don't think Lola is closed-minded... just that she is very Orthodox and many like her really don't get why I'd be Jewish without the G-d.

Katrine
03-08-2008, 02:54 PM
Lys, I pray too, and I don't believe in god. Honey, I feel for you more than you know. This makes me sentimental and melancholy too

Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 02:54 PM
I pray to no one, technically. I pray FOR myself. Sorry, bad wording. I just pray sometimes. I pray because I have to. I pray because I need the release. I pray because I feel better. I pray because it makes me cry. I pray because I'm desperate. I pray because it feels right. I just pray. I don't know why. Maybe because I was raised super Christian? I don't believe in G-d (but I believe there is a chance at more gods... so polytheism).... but I believe in the release of prayer. I HAVE tried praying to G-d.

I lost faith in Him long ago. He has hurt me too much to exist if he's real and I can't go back in putting all my faith in someone that I once did as a child and getting handed the life I was. I did believe in him. I fucking did. I was a good Christian girl who went to church three times a week, prayed every night for my mummy and daddy, didn't eat cookies before dinner, only watched an hour or TV and obeyed every word of my teachers, ministers and parents. And do you know what that got me?! I know I've mentioned some horrific stuff on here about my childhood but I haven't mentioned even HALF of it. At seven I was raped by my father who had HPV and gave me cancer that left me unable to bear children. HOW FUCKED UP IS THAT? How fucked up is that for a little girl who put all her faith in someone who would 'always take care of her'... only to give her the life I was dealt. If G-d exists, than he is truly a cruel human being, because I did my DAMN best... and was fucked in the end. I just CANNOT believe that a loving caring God would be that fucking cruel to an honest caring loving child who prayed every night. I also have a hard time in believing ONE being can create everything. I can't do it. I just... can't. It's too much.

Fuck, I'm crying. I ranted and now this'll probably bite me in the ass. And just so you know, that little 'raped by my daddy' thing isn't even the most fucked up shit that happened in the years to follow up until recently.

I believed in G-d once, with my whole heart and soul. I won't do that again. I can't.

:hug: I am so sorry for every unfair thing that was done to you. I'm crying as well, and not just a tear or two. The nurturer in me just wants to hold you, and rock you and cry with you. To tell you you are special and beautiful and you did noting wrong, nothing to deserve anything that happened to you. To make it better, even though that can't be done. :hug:

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:55 PM
Random: Is the Jewish G-d different from the Christian god. Like, not religions.. just the G-d? Because maybe if this G-d can have flaws and do what's best even if it hurts people and doesn't like to be cruel for no fucking reason (Job, anyone?)... I might like to believe in him.

I just can't believe in Christian god. Ever again.

But maybe Jew G-d is like, a cool groovy G-d.

Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 02:56 PM
NONONONO.... I don't think that! I was just having a hard time wrapping myself around why you couldn't see my beliefs while I was trying to see yours. You're not closed minded at all..we just have different views on what Judaism means to us.

I am trying to see your views. They're just completely foriegn to me. I do understand the want for the community of judiasm, and now that I realize that is what you want, it makes a lot more sense.

hardkandee
03-08-2008, 02:57 PM
Random: Is the Jewish G-d different from the Christian god. Like, not religions.. just the G-d? Because maybe if this G-d can have flaws and do what's best even if it hurts people and doesn't like to be cruel for no fucking reason (Job, anyone?)... I might like to believe in him.

I just can't believe in Christian god. Ever again.

But maybe Jew G-d is like, a cool groovy G-d.

He was the Jewish god before the Christians stole him. :P

No, really. It's a very different concept of god. Forgiveness and compassion are more much important than vengeance and retribution.

Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 02:58 PM
Without getting into too intense a theological discussion here...

We are free agents. G-d didn't do all that to you, Lys, people did. We wouldn't be able to do good things if we didn't have the ability to do bad things as well; it's our freedom to choose our actions that makes us higher beings. This is not a perfect world, which is why we all have to pitch in and work to make it better. Some have written that this is how we were created "in the image of G-d" - we have the agency to improve ourselves and our world. A frog has no agency and just does whatever he's programmed to do, which is the difference between you and a frog.

I'm going to recommend another Kushner book, When Bad Things Happen To Good People. Rabbi Kushner's son died young, after long suffering from a painful disease. This book is Kushner's answer to the question, "How could G-d let this happen?" It's very insightful and I can't recommend it highly enough.

Katrine
03-08-2008, 02:58 PM
Random: Is the Jewish G-d different from the Christian god. Like, not religions.. just the G-d? Because maybe if this G-d can have flaws and do what's best even if it hurts people and doesn't like to be cruel for no fucking reason (Job, anyone?)... I might like to believe in him.

Sorry, nope. The jewish god pre-dates the Xian one. Have you read the story of Abraham? That's god at his finest. God is not kind. The best god to believe in is the one that makes you feel happy, if you can buy into the silly concept of a creator in the first place.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 02:58 PM
:hug: I am so sorry for every unfair thing that was done to you. I'm crying as well, and not just a tear or two. The nurturer in me just wants to hold you, and rock you and cry with you. To tell you you are special and beautiful and you did noting wrong, nothing to deserve anything that happened to you. To make it better, even though that can't be done. :hug:

Ah Jeebus fuck (hey I can say Jesus' name in vain now, right? he?).... I'm crying like hell. I didn't think that shit about my past still effected me... like... at all. I haven't cried about it in YEARS. Years upon years. Thank you Lola, for saying it wasn't my fault. It means a lot to me.

I once sat a friend down for a few hours and told them every single fucked up thing I could remember from my childhood (starting with that one pivitol moment).... at the very end, he just sat there and looked at me and said, "You have got to have had the most fucked up life I have ever even seen in movies." It's just... it went downhill from there. That's all.

Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 02:59 PM
Random: Is the Jewish G-d different from the Christian god. Like, not religions.. just the G-d? Because maybe if this G-d can have flaws and do what's best even if it hurts people and doesn't like to be cruel for no fucking reason (Job, anyone?)... I might like to believe in him.

I just can't believe in Christian god. Ever again.

But maybe Jew G-d is like, a cool groovy G-d.

The jewish G-d is not at all like what (I understand) the christian god to be. I have times when I feel such hate for all the bad things he LETS happen. Like you being hurt like that, like my losing my babies, like wars and hunger and hate. But he doesn't make them happen. At the same time, he doesn't stop it.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:02 PM
Without getting into too intense a theological discussion here...

We are free agents. G-d didn't do all that to you, Lys, people did. We wouldn't be able to do good things if we didn't have the ability to do bad things as well; it's our freedom to choose our actions that makes us higher beings. This is not a perfect world, which is why we all have to pitch in and work to make it better. Some have written that this is how we were created "in the image of G-d" - we have the agency to improve ourselves and our world. A frog has no agency and just does whatever he's programmed to do, which is the difference between you and a frog.

I'm going to recommend another Kushner book, When Bad Things Happen To Good People. Rabbi Kushner's son died young, after long suffering from a painful disease. This book is Kushner's answer to the question, "How could G-d let this happen?" It's very insightful and I can't recommend it highly enough.

I don't think it was G-d's fault or anyone's fault. I just don't think he could possibly exist if he was supposed to be a loving caring god and that happened to me. What he 'let' or didn't 'let' is not for me to decide. But I prayed. Every day. I participated in church bake sales. I took Christian SUMMER SCHOOL for godsake.. for FUN! I went door to door at 6 with my little bible and tried to spread the word of god.

It's like the fucking Job story, dude. It's like god went, Hey, Devil, see how much this chick likes me? Wanna bet I can make her not lose faith in me?

Like dude, what kind of fucking god tells you everything will be okay when it won't? Maybe if god didn't lie to me, I'd put some faith in him. I just find it kinda hard when I was lied to, did my best and still got fucked in the end.

Katrine
03-08-2008, 03:03 PM
The jewish G-d is not at all like what (I understand) the christian god to be. I have times when I feel such hate for all the bad things he LETS happen. Like you being hurt like that, like my losing my babies, like wars and hunger and hate. But he doesn't make them happen. At the same time, he doesn't stop it.

Sorry, no. Its the same basic God/creator. The jewish religion doesn't dwell on his power to create suffering. Then again, neither do most christian sects. Those few loud christian fundies make a lot of noise about hellfire and damnation.

If you are going to believe in God, and the made up stories of the bible, torah, etc, you will have to believe in the evil god too. Well, you don't have to do anything if you don't want to. I'm just saying, its the same god.

Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 03:03 PM
Ah Jeebus fuck (hey I can say Jesus' name in vain now, right? he?).... I'm crying like hell. I didn't think that shit about my past still effected me... like... at all. I haven't cried about it in YEARS. Years upon years. Thank you Lola, for saying it wasn't my fault. It means a lot to me.

I once sat a friend down for a few hours and told them every single fucked up thing I could remember from my childhood (starting with that one pivitol moment).... at the very end, he just sat there and looked at me and said, "You have got to have had the most fucked up life I have ever even seen in movies." It's just... it went downhill from there. That's all.

I wish someone would have stopped those things from happening to you. I very rarely hate, it's just not me. But fuck, I hate that you had to suffer like that. Noting you could ever do, no matter what, could make you deserve that. You are special, and kind, and smart. And sooooo precious. It is beyond words that this happens.

I just want to also tell you you are loved, and there are so many people who care about you.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:03 PM
Sorry, nope. The jewish god pre-dates the Xian one. Have you read the story of Abraham? That's god at his finest. God is not kind. The best god to believe in is the one that makes you feel happy, if you can buy into the silly concept of a creator in the first place.

Your side of this argument is so confusing. The Jews are saying one thing and you another and I'm not sure where you lie in the conversation, really.

Dude, creationism...a whooooole other can of worms I don't wanna get into right now. We can just work on the G-d bit for now.

Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 03:05 PM
Sorry, no. Its the same basic God/creator. The jewish religion doesn't dwell on his power to create suffering. Then again, neither do most christian sects. Those few loud christian fundies make a lot of noise about hellfire and damnation.

If you are going to believe in God, and the made up stories of the bible, torah, etc, you will have to believe in the evil god too. Well, you don't have to do anything if you don't want to. I'm just saying, its the same god.

my idea of the christian god is of fire and damnation....

I do understand g-d does some horrible things, and allows, and makes some horrible things happen. I think G-d and I have a love/hate relationship, but that does not stop my belief.

IrishMarc
03-08-2008, 03:06 PM
Random: Is the Jewish G-d different from the Christian god. Like, not religions.. just the G-d? Because maybe if this G-d can have flaws and do what's best even if it hurts people and doesn't like to be cruel for no fucking reason (Job, anyone?)... I might like to believe in him.

I just can't believe in Christian god. Ever again.

But maybe Jew G-d is like, a cool groovy G-d.

Why do you feel the need to believe in a god like some all knowing all seeing security blanket. Any god that was created by a human society is almost certainly wrong. If you consider our place in the cosmos we have absolutely no relevance outside of our little gassy sphere. Consider the sheer vastness of the universe, relating that to a personal god who cares about you (1 person on a planet consisting of over 6,000,000,000 others) is being childish in the extreme.

The simple fact is the question of god existence is not a philosophical matter for theologians to spout crap about its an existence claim and therefore is a matter of science. I'm sorry but all of the claims made by pretty much every religion of a physical nature have been absolutely crushed by scientific explanation.

Certainly it would be better for you to wake up and consider that if their is a god the chances of him even knowing of your existence are next to nil (when was the last time you gave any thought to a specific electron in your body?).

Far better to take the time we have and enjoy it to the full than pining after non existent entities, bronze age fairy tales and dogma based in thousand years old metaphysic nonsense.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:06 PM
I wish someone would have stopped those things from happening to you. I very rarely hate, it's just not me. But fuck, I hate that you had to suffer like that. Noting you could ever do, no matter what, could make you deserve that. You are special, and kind, and smart. And sooooo precious. It is beyond words that this happens.

I just want to also tell you you are loved, and there are so many people who care about you.

Yeah... maybe if it happened when I was older and I understood more about religion I wouldn't have lost faith entirely.

Like when you're a kid and they tell you I BEFORE E... and then two years later they tell you EXCEPT AFTER C...and then two years they tell you EXCEPT IN NEIGHBOUR AND WEIGH.... and you're like.. fuck... why did you tell me I before E in the first fucking place then??!

They told me god would do his best and if I was a good little girl I'd be saved and loved and cherished forever. Why the fuck did they teach me that INSTEAD of the 'god is a vengeful god and likes to fuck with people like Job to prove a point to the devil'.

It's really stupid the way they teach religion (and English, now that I bring it up).

hardkandee
03-08-2008, 03:06 PM
Katrine just means it is the same god. The Christians just adapted the pre-existing Jewish one for their own purposes.