View Full Version : Converting Religions - Is there a RIGHT reason?
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Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 03:09 PM
Why do you feel the need to believe in a god like some all knowing all seeing security blanket. Any god that was created by a human society is almost certainly wrong. If you consider our place in the cosmos we have absolutely no relevance outside of our little gassy sphere. Consider the sheer vastness of the universe, relating that to a personal god who cares about you (1 person on a planet consisting of over 6,000,000,000 others) is being childish in the extreme.
The simple fact is the question of god existence is not a philosophical matter for theologians to spout crap about its an existence claim and therefore is a matter of science. I'm sorry but all of the claims made by pretty much every religion of a physical nature have been absolutely crushed by scientific explanation.
Certainly it would be better for you to wake up and consider that if their is a god the chances of him even knowing of your existence are next to nil (when was the last time you gave any thought to a specific electron in your body?).
Far better to take the time we have and enjoy it to the full than pining after non existent entities, bronze age fairy tales and dogma based in thousand years old metaphysic nonsense.
wow. I am so sorry for you. :hug:
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:09 PM
Why do you feel the need to believe in a god like some all knowing all seeing security blanket. Any god that was created by a human society is almost certainly wrong. If you consider our place in the cosmos we have absolutely no relevance outside of our little gassy sphere if you consider the sheer vastness of the universe and try and relate that to a personal god who cares about you (1 person on a planet consisting of over 6,000,000,000 others) then you are being childish in the extreme.
The simple fact is the question of god existence is not a philosophical matter for theologians to spout crap about its an existence claim and therefore is a matter of science. I'm sorry but all of the claims made by pretty much every religion of a physical nature have been absolutely crushed by scientific explanation.
Certainly it would be better for you to wake up and consider that if their is a god the chances of him even knowing of your existence are next to nil (when was the last time you gave any thought to a specific electron in your body?).
Far better to take the time we have and enjoy it to the full than pining after non existent entities, bronze age fairy tales and dogma based in thousand years old metaphysic nonsense.
Oh for Gourd's sake... you have NO WAY of telling if a G-d is manmade or real. No freaking way. Which is the POINT of religion.
And I'm not doing the whole science/religion debate... nor am I even saying I WANT TO BELIEVE IN GOD (hello did you fucking READ this thread?!)....
Dude, I believe in science. I don't believe in Big Bang. I don't believe i Creationism. I don't FUCKING KNOW how the world was made so I'm not going to say how it was!! I DON'T KNOW SO I DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING.
NOW the whole fucking POINT of this thread was whether or not I could be Jewish and be ATHEIST. Dude. Really. Read.
Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 03:09 PM
Like I said already, I don't think G-d is really an old man in the sky rewarding and hurting people. While some say "G-d let me be raped," others could just as easily say "I was raped and G-d gave me the strength to move past it." G-d is inspiration, soul, "breath of life," whatever you want to call the thing that makes us free and aware. Unfortunately there can't be any good in this capricious world without suffering to balance it out. (BTW, this is me talking, not Kushner; his book is different.)
I like to think of G-d as a cosmic artist, or whatever creates artistic inspiration. A painting all in white on a white canvas can't be appreciated and does no good to anybody (I've seen such a painting, and it was stupid). A beautiful painting will have lights and darks, many different colors, bright areas and deep blacks. Life is like that too. Some people have more black in their lives and others have more blue or red or yellow or white, but it's the combination of all of it together that makes this world what it is.
It's about where you choose to channel your energy, and what you choose to dwell on. You can blame G-d for your suffering, or you can thank G-d that you survived it and take the inspiration to help others.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:12 PM
Pft... now I want to be Hasidic just to make a point, hahahaha.
Anyway... thank you SO much Lola (I meant to say it in a previous reply) for the hugs and the caring and the love you've shown me. It means a lot to me... and strengthens my reasoning for wanting to be Jewish. (even if you don't think I'm a real one! :P)
I feel Jewish. I know that sounds weird. But I feel like I should be Jewish. It just feels right.
Except for that whole...G-d...thing. That minor detail.
Katrine
03-08-2008, 03:12 PM
Your side of this argument is so confusing. The Jews are saying one thing and you another and I'm not sure where you lie in the conversation, really.
Dude, creationism...a whooooole other can of worms I don't wanna get into right now. We can just work on the G-d bit for now.
No, this has nothing to do with creationism. No one is talking about that. Abraham is a jewish story that exhibits god's cruelty.
I have spent my life involved in judaism. You are thinking like a christian about all of this. Just because I am not a practicing jew does not mean I do not know the mindset. As you see, we are a diverse group of people, and there is no one jewish way of thinking.
My place in the conversation is as an atheist who is of a jewish father and a christian mother. My parents allowed me to explore the religion I wanted, so I have spent my entire life learning both sides, amongst other. I choose nothing. Do you really think I have no place in this conversation? If so, that is very hurtful. I hope that I'm misunderstanding you Lys.
Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 03:12 PM
They told me god would do his best and if I was a good little girl I'd be saved and loved and cherished forever.
This is how some (mostly Christian) parents raise children. It has nothing to do with G-d Himself. Anyone who really believes that people who behave get perfect lives and sinners have to suffer has never stepped outside for five minutes. Life just ain't that way. But most adults with a mature faith would never spread such a bogus, immature philosophy.
IrishMarc
03-08-2008, 03:15 PM
Oh for Gourd's sake... you have NO WAY of telling if a G-d is manmade or real. No freaking way. Which is the POINT of religion.
Don't be ridiculous they are books written by men that can be sourced back to authors they are not inspired by a god that is just blatantly absurd.
And I'm not doing the whole science/religion debate... nor am I even saying I WANT TO BELIEVE IN GOD (hello did you fucking READ this thread?!)....
Forgive me for jumping in.
Dude, I believe in science. I don't believe in Big Bang. I don't believe i Creationism. I don't FUCKING KNOW how the world was made so I'm not going to say how it was!! I DON'T KNOW SO I DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING.
NOW the whole fucking POINT of this thread was whether or not I could be Jewish and be ATHEIST. Dude. Really. Read.
Pardon my irrelevant ranting.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:17 PM
Like I said already, I don't think G-d is really an old man in the sky rewarding and hurting people. While some say "G-d let me be raped," others could just as easily say "I was raped and G-d gave me the strength to move past it." G-d is inspiration, soul, "breath of life," whatever you want to call the thing that makes us free and aware. Unfortunately there can't be any good in this capricious world without suffering to balance it out. (BTW, this is me talking, not Kushner; his book is different.)
I like to think of G-d as a cosmic artist, or whatever creates artistic inspiration. A painting all in white on a white canvas can't be appreciated and does no good to anybody (I've seen such a painting, and it was stupid). A beautiful painting will have lights and darks, many different colors, bright areas and deep blacks. Life is like that too. Some people have more black in their lives and others have more blue or red or yellow or white, but it's the combination of all of it together that makes this world what it is.
It's about where you choose to channel your energy, and what you choose to dwell on. You can blame G-d for your suffering, or you can thank G-d that you survived it and take the inspiration to help others.
See that's the things... I don't blame him or thank him because when my life went to the nuthouse, I stopped believing. Full stop. How can I blame someone I don't believe in? The whole idea was I didn't GET it. I didn't understand if the Christian god was X, why was it suddenly Y? So I lost faith. I never really 'blamed' him (even though my post is accusatory, it was more trying to make a point that 'HOW could I believe in him when....').... it's just I was told all my life that if you were ____, god would be _____. And when I put blind faith in something that turned out to be a lie, I kinda went... well fuck that. I like cheese!
It's just they tell you that you need blind faith and then god with do this/that/thing and then like, he doesn't, and OH your faith wasn't strong enough...wtf.... how much more could I have done? I was seven and carried three bibles to church and knew all the hymns. It's like Christinity and the Christian god were just a bundle of excuses for a poorly executed religion.
But now that I'm hearinf this Jewish G-d is an older non-Job-betting version of the Christian god, I might look into him more from a Jewish light and see how I feel.
IrishMarc
03-08-2008, 03:18 PM
Pft... now I want to be Hasidic just to make a point, hahahaha.
Anyway... thank you SO much Lola (I meant to say it in a previous reply) for the hugs and the caring and the love you've shown me. It means a lot to me... and strengthens my reasoning for wanting to be Jewish. (even if you don't think I'm a real one! :P)
I feel Jewish. I know that sounds weird. But I feel like I should be Jewish. It just feels right.
Except for that whole...G-d...thing. That minor detail.
There are plenty of atheists who still attend religious ceremony as a social event.
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 03:19 PM
lys, I get that. You were taught you would be fine as long as you were a good girl, that god would protect you.
I've never been told something like that. That is not how the jewish G-d is. it's not a reward/punishment thing.
Katrine
03-08-2008, 03:19 PM
God did a bunch of mean things to people well before Job. Again, Abraham. That's the jewish Yah-weh.
Ultimately, I'm inclined to the type of thinking and critial reasoning that Irishmarc has threadjacked about, so you won't see me trying to encourage anyone to add any more religion to the world.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:20 PM
No, this has nothing to do with creationism. No one is talking about that. Abraham is a jewish story that exhibits god's cruelty.
I have spent my life involved in judaism. You are thinking like a christian about all of this. Just because I am not a practicing jew does not mean I do not know the mindset. As you see, we are a diverse group of people, and there is no one jewish way of thinking.
My place in the conversation is as an atheist who is of a jewish father and a christian mother. My parents allowed me to explore the religion I wanted, so I have spent my entire life learning both sides, amongst other. I choose nothing. Do you really think I have no place in this conversation? If so, that is very hurtful. I hope that I'm misunderstanding you Lys.
No, I was just having a hard time figuring out where you were coming from and why it was contrasting so brilliantly with other people's thought processes in almost every aspect. I'm just trying to gather where you get your information and where you stand, is all.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:21 PM
lys, I get that. You were taught you would be fine as long as you were a good girl, that god would protect you.
I've never been told something like that. That is not how the jewish G-d is. it's not a reward/punishment thing.
Yeah... it probably wouldn't have been so screwed in my head if they had just been forthright from me in the fucking beginning about religion instead of babying me into it like a child and going ONLY GOOD WIDDLE GIRLS WHO EAT THEIR VEGGIES GO TO HEAVEN!...
I bet that's what ruined me to Christianity forever.
I love their passive agressive babying bullshit.
Katrine
03-08-2008, 03:22 PM
No, I was just having a hard time figuring out where you were coming from and why it was contrasting so brilliantly with other people's thought processes in almost every aspect. I'm just trying to gather where you get your information and where you stand, is all.
I am a weirdo, my thinking is what it is, my own internalized experiences. I've been intimately involved with both sides. Lola, for example, has not. Therefore, I can see where both of you are coming from, where you want to go, and how I feel about it.
IrishMarc is my god, I worship the alter that is his hotness.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:22 PM
There are plenty of atheists who still attend religious ceremony as a social event.
Yes. That was the idea of what I was talking about. But actually converting because I wanted to be Jewish. An Atheist Jew, specifically.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:23 PM
I am a weirdo, my thinking is what it is, my own internalized experiences. I've been intimately involved with both sides. Lola, for example, has not. Therefore, I can see where both of you are coming from, where you want to go, and how I feel about it.
IrishMarc is my god, I worship the alter that is his hotness.
Cool, now I'll reread and try to see if it sheds a new light. Thanks.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:25 PM
My heavily Jewish friend sent me this when I mentioned my needs... I thought it was appropriate:
A frightening rumor was spreading like wildfire through a small Ukrainian village, at the turn of the century. Apparently, a young Christian girl had been found murdered. Knowing how anti-Semitic many of the local peasants were -- even with no evidence of who'd actually killed the girl -- the Jews logically feared horrible repercussions,. Perhaps even a pogrom. A huge crowd congregated in their small, simple synagogue. Ideas were flying around the room about the best way to ward off the inevitable revenge they both feared and had come to expect.
People were shouting, ideas were flying back and forth, when suddenly Abramowitz runs into the synagogue and makes a momentous announcement:
"I have great news! The murdered girl was Jewish!"
Judiasm isn't about so much as the laws, based ethically, or so it is believed. i.e. Jews judge themselves based on the rules, not the deity, to the point where if it was proven that God didn't exist, it wouldn't change the obligation to obey the laws.
Not that you wouldn't be a good addition to the tribe, but once you join up, you will be considered to have been one of the ones who murdered Jesus, Muslims in the middle east may want to kill you for being, Christians will accuse you of being dishonest and money grubbing, but worst of all, if you have any kids, you will become a Jewish mother.
:P
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 03:25 PM
Pft... now I want to be Hasidic just to make a point, hahahaha.
Anyway... thank you SO much Lola (I meant to say it in a previous reply) for the hugs and the caring and the love you've shown me. It means a lot to me... and strengthens my reasoning for wanting to be Jewish. (even if you don't think I'm a real one! :P)
I feel Jewish. I know that sounds weird. But I feel like I should be Jewish. It just feels right.
Except for that whole...G-d...thing. That minor detail.
I think as you grow and learn, your thoughts may change. We don't always know what we believe in.
And you're welcome. You do not need to thank me though. If you ever need to talk, or rant, or anything. I am here for you. 100% seriously.
I do not think you cannot be a "real" jew. I think converts are as real as someone with the birthright. I do still think you need to believe in G-d, at least a little, to be Jewish. And honestly, I think you'll develop that part with time. If you are ever in florida, you are welcome at my shabbos table.
Katrine
03-08-2008, 03:26 PM
Yes. That was the idea of what I was talking about. But actually converting because I wanted to be Jewish. An Atheist Jew, specifically.
Lordy, I'm a post whore. Really honey, I think they will welcome you in reform of Lubovich, but I don't see a rabbi letting you convert without any faith in god. Who knows, perhaps they can convince you. I almost became convinced to believe in something godlike when I was in rehab, because faith was being crammed down my throat non-stop. Thank god I was sober enough to be aware of what they were trying to do!
IrishMarc
03-08-2008, 03:26 PM
Like I said already, I don't think G-d is really an old man in the sky rewarding and hurting people. While some say "G-d let me be raped," others could just as easily say "I was raped and G-d gave me the strength to move past it." G-d is inspiration, soul, "breath of life," whatever you want to call the thing that makes us free and aware. Unfortunately there can't be any good in this capricious world without suffering to balance it out. (BTW, this is me talking, not Kushner; his book is different.)
I like to think of G-d as a cosmic artist, or whatever creates artistic inspiration. A painting all in white on a white canvas can't be appreciated and does no good to anybody (I've seen such a painting, and it was stupid). A beautiful painting will have lights and darks, many different colors, bright areas and deep blacks. Life is like that too. Some people have more black in their lives and others have more blue or red or yellow or white, but it's the combination of all of it together that makes this world what it is.
It's about where you choose to channel your energy, and what you choose to dwell on. You can blame G-d for your suffering, or you can thank G-d that you survived it and take the inspiration to help others.
Whilst that is quite a poetic and lovely written view point it is completely void of any meaning or physical content.
If you are a deist than you are pretty much bullet proof as a god who doesn't interfere with the physical word is completely impossible to detect.
When talking about gods we are talking probabilities. Everything in science points to complexity coming about via small cumulative jumps in said complexity. If you where presented with an eye it requires an explanation (a mechanism which Darwin's theory explains beautifully and is verified exhaustively through experiment.) much the same with a universe.
A god who creates a universe must be infinitely complex and begs an explanation (so we get to the old question where did god come from?).
Any complex creator god is so statistically improbable it begs belief.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:28 PM
I think as you grow and learn, your thoughts may change. We don't always know what we believe in.
And you're welcome. You do not need to thank me though. If you ever need to talk, or rant, or anything. I am here for you. 100% seriously.
I do not think you cannot be a "real" jew. I think converts are as real as someone with the birthright. I do still think you need to believe in G-d, at least a little, to be Jewish. And honestly, I think you'll develop that part with time. If you are ever in florida, you are welcome at my shabbos table.
Dude I'm welcome in a Jewish home, awesome. :D
My Judaism brings all the shabbos to the table, and damn right, my challah is better than yours. Damn right. I could teach you and you know I'D charge.
Katrine
03-08-2008, 03:28 PM
My heavily Jewish friend sent me this when I mentioned my needs... I thought it was appropriate:
OH MY FUCKING GOD!!! Lys, Abromovich jokes are anti-semitic russian humor. Its very popular, and meant as hate speech. Something gets lost in translation, but I am super fucking pissed that this is going around.
It is NOT humor. Ask any russian on this board about this joke, its NOT funny. Now, my father, as a Uke jew, can say it, but any non-jew that said it would get a punch in the face by anyone in my family. >:(
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 03:29 PM
I almost became convinced to believe in something godlike when I was in rehab, because faith was being crammed down my throat non-stop. Thank god I was sober enough to be aware of what they were trying to do!
this is definatly siggy worthy! I totally laughed.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:29 PM
Whilst that is quite a poetic and lovely written view point it is completely void of any meaning or physical content.
If you are a deist than you are pretty much bullet proof as a god who doesn't interfere with the physical word is completely impossible to detect.
When talking about gods we are talking probabilities. Everything in science points to complexity coming about via small cumulative jumps in said complexity. If you where presented with an eye it requires an explanation (a mechanism which Darwin's theory explains beautifully and is verified exhaustively through experiment.) much the same with a universe.
A god who creates a universe must be infinitely complex and begs an explanation (so we get to the old question where did god come from?).
Any complex creator god is so statistically improbable it begs belief.
Points go over your head easily, don't they? /:O
IrishMarc
03-08-2008, 03:29 PM
Yes. That was the idea of what I was talking about. But actually converting because I wanted to be Jewish. An Atheist Jew, specifically.
Sorry that makes no sense.
Katrine
03-08-2008, 03:30 PM
I would like to once again add that I am in mad cyber-lust with IrishMarc.
IrishMarc
03-08-2008, 03:30 PM
Maybe I should bow out and read the thread.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:30 PM
OH MY FUCKING GOD!!! Lys, Abromovich jokes are anti-semitic russian humor. Its very popular, and meant as hate speech. Something gets lost in translation, but I am super fucking pissed that this is going around.
It is NOT humor. Ask any russian on this board about this joke, its NOT funny. Now, my father, as a Uke jew, can say it, but any non-jew that said it would get a punch in the face by anyone in my family. >:(
He didn't say it to me as humour. He said it to me to prove that people would hate me and why should I convert.
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 03:31 PM
Dude I'm welcome in a Jewish home, awesome. :D
My Judaism brings all the shabbos to the table, and damn right, my challah is better than yours. Damn right. I could teach you and you know I'D charge.
oh no you didn't! I'd kick your ass is a challah bake off.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:31 PM
Sorry that makes no sense.
Okay... I retract my previous question and make it a statement. Points DO go over your head.
IrishMarc
03-08-2008, 03:32 PM
I would like to once again add that I am in mad cyber-lust with IrishMarc.
I came across you photo in the gallery section (totally by chance....) and I must say apart from your blurry face you look smoking hot (forgive my thread jacking/postwhoring)
Katrine
03-08-2008, 03:32 PM
He didn't say it to me as humour. He said it to me to prove that people would hate me and why should I convert.
Gotcha. I re-read the post a few times and now understand. But it initially instigated my internal fires. There are some really funny Abramovich jokes too though, but they are super racist.
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 03:32 PM
Maybe I should bow out and read the thread.
it is always a good idea to actually read..... shocking, I know.
Katrine
03-08-2008, 03:33 PM
I came across you photo in the gallery section (totally by chance....) and I must say apart from your blurry face you look smoking hot (forgive my thread jacking/postwhoring)
You are my mySpace friend, you can see more, I'll send you a message.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:33 PM
it is always a good idea to actually read..... shocking, I know.
Funny. That.
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 03:33 PM
this thread has doubled in length in an hour. WOW!
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:34 PM
oh no you didn't! I'd kick your ass is a challah bake off.
Probably... I buy mine from Goldstein's bakery.
(And lol, I went to them once and tried to order some jewish breads and they told me they weren't Jewish. Ignore the photos of some very Hasidic jews opening up the shop in the corner... GOLDSTEINS BAKERY dude!)
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:35 PM
this thread has doubled in length in an hour. WOW!
It's because we've all injected way too much caffeine.
I don't think I've even changed thread in an hour. :O
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:36 PM
Gotcha. I re-read the post a few times and now understand. But it initially instigated my internal fires. There are some really funny Abramovich jokes too though, but they are super racist.
Yeah.. he italicized the 'joke' and said the rest to me as his personal opinion. He was just warning me that people would hate me and then ended it with a 'worst of all' you'd be a jewish mum!
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 03:37 PM
Probably... I buy mine from Goldstein's bakery.
(And lol, I went to them once and tried to order some jewish breads and they told me they weren't Jewish. Ignore the photos of some very Hasidic jews opening up the shop in the corner... GOLDSTEINS BAKERY dude!)
lol. Mine is made from scratch, and is a lot of work (the kneading)
nothing beats fresh challah bread. oooo, and challah french toast!!!!!
I'm going to have a challah and meatloaf sandwich for dinner. ohhh, so hungry.
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 03:38 PM
It's because we've all injected way too much caffeine.
I don't think I've even changed thread in an hour. :O
me has no caffine! :P
this is all natural baby!
I did. just once tho. and i was back w/in a minute.
Katrine
03-08-2008, 03:40 PM
I'm hungry for some turkey on challah now! Ok, check this thread later. My boy is going to kill me if I dont' get to the store and buy the HD cable for our new tv.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:42 PM
lol. Mine is made from scratch, and is a lot of work (the kneading)
nothing beats fresh challah bread. oooo, and challah french toast!!!!!
I'm going to have a challah and meatloaf sandwich for dinner. ohhh, so hungry.
Once I had a sugar challah french toast with raisins...omfg.... who the fuck needs G-d to convert. I'll convert in the name of the Ol' Mighty Challah loaf!
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:43 PM
omg a religion thread that ended happily. :D
Now... to steal Lola's challah recipe...
Lola Rose
03-08-2008, 03:44 PM
lol. ya, this has got to be a SW first :P
and, um... no.
Family secret, biotch'!!!!!
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:49 PM
Whut?! You no make exception for other Jew? I thought I was part of family!!
(Too soon for the Jewish jokes? Most definitely. But still amusing.)
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 03:51 PM
Not to sound totally fucking off the wall but....
Is Sunday really bagel day?
Casual Observer
03-08-2008, 03:53 PM
Interesting thread. I find myself agreeing with Kat on this, due in no small part to personal experience with Jews in my life. I also think there's been a bit too much glazing over of the treatment of converted Jews by matriarchal-certified Jews (aka Real Jews).
I like a great deal about Judaism, since so much of it is simply based on concepts of ethical living, and was actively investigating it at one point. At the same time, the more I learned about the dogma of Judaism the less inclined I was to accept it--not the least of which was the notion that since I wasn't a Real Jew, I wouldn't ever be accepted by a preponderance of Jews anyway, so I may as well stay goy and enjoy crumbled Gorgonzola with my filet mignon. ;)
The unfortunate thing about any religion is that adopting the dogma and rituals immediately creates an environment of Us vs. Them, and I hate that. All religions are closed clubs, it's just that Judaism has more locks on their doors than most.
Based on some events in my life for which I have no rational explanation, I'm quite sure there's a Higher Power in the universe, but at the end of the day we are not created in God's image; God is created in our image, to serve our own purposes.
Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 04:20 PM
Marc, the fact that you don't understand the meaning doesn't make it devoid of meaning. You don't even get what language I'm speaking. Reminds me of my relatives who think all fur'ners are stupid because they don't understand English. ::)
As for the whole converted Jew vs. born Jew thing, I don't think it's as big an issue as you guys are making it out to be. As a freckled blond convert I definitely stood out, and a few little old ladies didn't accept me. Who gives a shit? I was a valued and active member of my synagogue community and the Rabbi was quick to point out that the Talmud says there is no difference between a Jew born into Judaism and a Jew who converted to it. In fact, it's a violation of Jewish law to draw attention to a convert's non-Jewish origins. There is discrimination but discrimination is everywhere, and it never interfered with my Jewish life.
IrishMarc
03-08-2008, 04:27 PM
Marc, the fact that you don't understand the meaning doesn't make it devoid of meaning. You don't even get what language I'm speaking. Reminds me of my relatives who think all fur'ners are stupid because they don't understand English. ::)
I'm sorry if you would like to say what you mean in plain English rather than speaking in simily and metaphor, other than seeing god as some sort of cosmic Picasso I can't see what your striking at.