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Lysondra
03-08-2008, 04:28 PM
Where's that head wall smiley?

Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 04:29 PM
You don't understand my view of G-d or faith, so rather than step graciously out of the conversation, you throw tantrums and call me stupid. It only makes you look juvenile and ignorant, honey. I really don't give a shit whether you believe in G-d or not but you really have nothing of value to offer in this thread, so it might be better if you just left the conversation.

IrishMarc
03-08-2008, 04:50 PM
You don't understand my view of G-d or faith, so rather than step graciously out of the conversation, you throw tantrums and call me stupid. It only makes you look juvenile and ignorant, honey. I really don't give a shit whether you believe in G-d or not but you really have nothing of value to offer in this thread, so it might be better if you just left the conversation.

Firstly I have called no one stupid besides thats rich coming from someone making derogatory comments about not understanding the language you speak and comparing me to your xenophobic relatives. The adhomein attacks are coming firmly from your corner.

Secondly you replied to me after I had left the conversation and thus I returned and replied, forgive me if I have misinterpreted the concept of internet fourming.

All I wanted was a plain worded and clear definition of what you where striking at, your belief in colours, hues and energies doesn't carry much meaning forgive me for being blunt but I don't see the need for poetic language.

I can see I am wading through a thread where I am of little use so I shall take my leave.

IrishMarc
03-08-2008, 04:54 PM
Where's that head wall smiley?

http://www.upstandingfuckingcitizens.com/images/smilies/eusa_wall.gif


http://www.upstandingfuckingcitizens.com/images/smilies/kkk.gif

http://www.upstandingfuckingcitizens.com/images/smilies/jackoff.gif

http://www.upstandingfuckingcitizens.com/images/smilies/unicorn.gif

Casual Observer
03-08-2008, 05:10 PM
As for the whole converted Jew vs. born Jew thing, I don't think it's as big an issue as you guys are making it out to be. As a freckled blond convert I definitely stood out, and a few little old ladies didn't accept me. Who gives a shit?

Well, I respectfully submit that Real Jews do give a shit. And I'm not talking about Rabbinate groups in Israel that determine if you're Jewish enough, as recently profiled in an NYT Magazine article, (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/magazine/02jewishness-t.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=jewish+marriage&st=nyt&oref=slogin) I'm talking about classically liberal American Jews which, as many an immigrant Jew has told me, are nothing like Real Jews with a registered trademark. ;)

A quote from the NYT article is but one example of the self-segregation that goes on even inside Judaism:


In recent years, the state’s Chief Rabbinate and its branches in each Israeli city have adopted an institutional attitude of skepticism toward the Jewish identity of those who enter its doors. And the type of proof that the rabbinate prefers is peculiarly unsuited to Jewish life in the United States. The Israeli government seeks the political and financial support of American Jewry. It welcomes American Jewish immigrants. Yet the rabbinate, one arm of the state, increasingly treats American Jews as doubtful cases: not Jewish until proved so...

snippage

In the United States, the Reform movement responded to rising intermarriage by deciding in 1983 to accept children of a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother as Jews if they were raised within the faith. The denominations also diverge on how to accept a convert into Judaism. Orthodox Jews generally do not regard conversions by non-Orthodox rabbis as valid — either because the rabbis do not strictly follow religious law or because they do not require the converts to do so. The number of people in America “recognized by some movements as Jewish but not by others” is “certainly in six figures,” according to Jonathan D. Sarna, a Brandeis University professor and the author of “American Judaism: A History.”

more gratuitous snippage

Not surprisingly, leaders of non-Orthodox denominations in the United States sound both pained and vindicated when discussing the rabbinate’s policies. “There is quite an irony in this,” Rabbi Eric H. Yoffie, president of the Union for Reform Judaism, told me. In the past, “Orthodox authorities in America have basically defended the system, and they’ve embraced this religious monopoly as being important and necessary, thinking all the while that it was directed primarily against us, us meaning the non-Orthodox community.”

I just think it's disingenuous (if unintentionally so) to say that converts and Reform Jews are held in the same esteem in the Jewish community as Conservative Jews, let alone Orthodox. And I'm not trying to minimize your own experiences Yek, but to a large segment of the community--particularly in cities with large Jewish populations--you're just another goy there for the club privileges.

cameron_keys
03-08-2008, 05:25 PM
I pray to no one, technically. I pray FOR myself. Sorry, bad wording. I just pray sometimes. I pray because I have to. I pray because I need the release. I pray because I feel better. I pray because it makes me cry. I pray because I'm desperate. I pray because it feels right. I just pray. I don't know why. .

I cant believe how this thread has exploded. Although with such a sensitive topic as religion I should have expected it.

I just wanted to say that the above is pretty much what I do. I dont know if you can call it praying since I dont address a specific deity..

I dont believe in G-D as a specific person or such..but I do believe in a higher power. I dont pretend to know anything about such a power since there is nothing I have read or experienced thus far in my life that sways my thoughts in any direction. I was raised VERY strict Irish Catholic and I do know that that isnt right for me. I just cant get on board with any organized religion. The rituals dont feel right to me, and I end up feeling like I'm just going through the motions for show. My beliefs are just such a private matter to me...I dont feel comfortable feeling what I feel around others..or feeling that I must go through the processes at a set time(like Sunday mass) rather then whenever the need for it strikes me.

But what I do is just speak. Or think..and project those thoughts into the universe. I ask for help, I say thanks for the good things in my life...etc... And all I can do is hope that whatever higher power there is out there is listening and caring about me. Sometimes when things get especially difficult, that support is hard to feel. But then again, I turn to my loved ones,both IRL and here, and low and behold..there the support is. I never know where it will come from..whether it will be in the form of other people holding me up, or a animal sensing I need comfort and snuggling next to me out of nowhere and kissing me, or just a sudden unexplainable feeling that all will be ok. But somehow, from somewhere...eventually comfort comes to me when I need it most.

Lysondra..I know nothing about conversion,so I cant help you there. But if this feels right to you..just tell the rabbi that. NO need to say right off the bat that you dont believe in G-D...just say that you are searching for answers and you feel that Judaism and it's teachings call to you. Take it slowly from there. Maybe belief will come to you, maybe it wont.But ultimately, learning will benifit you,conversion or not. I wish you the best of luck in your journey.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 06:47 PM
I think you're right Cam, I'll do that. It seems the best and most accurate answer.

"Why do you want to be Jewish?"
"Because it feels right."

And it does. It just feels right. I can't explain it. And maybe Yek's a bit right on me fitting in - I have black hair and a very Jewish nose, they probably won't even know!

The Rabbi e-mailed me back with a place to get challah anyday and a time to meet him after service!

BrunetteGoddess
03-08-2008, 07:58 PM
Oh, that was directed to Marc. Man, I can't keep up!

flickad
03-08-2008, 08:07 PM
Eh. PM'd you. Idealising any religion is dangerous- they all have their pitfalls. If you do convert, be sure you're fully aware of just what you're getting into and also be sure that you do still want to despite knowing that the religion of your choice contains unpalatable aspects and prejudiced followers just like any other religion does.

flickad
03-08-2008, 08:11 PM
I've actually considered converting as well, Lysondra. I thought I was kind of nuts, as I'm a pagan, but something about Judaism makes me happy. Can one be a Jewish pagan?

Nope, monotheism is a central tenet of Judaism.

Katrine
03-08-2008, 08:21 PM
I think you're right Cam, I'll do that. It seems the best and most accurate answer.

"Why do you want to be Jewish?"
"Because it feels right."

And it does. It just feels right. I can't explain it. And maybe Yek's a bit right on me fitting in - I have black hair and a very Jewish nose, they probably won't even know!

The Rabbi e-mailed me back with a place to get challah anyday and a time to meet him after service!

It simply not what Judaism is about. Go ahead and try if for yourself. I will be there for you when they reject you. Yes, it sounds harsh, but I've been in your shoes. I wish you the best, truly.

flickad
03-08-2008, 08:24 PM
Which is funny because Lola is Orthodox and is saying I'm a pretend Jew. So basically, I am being given a forsight into what I'll be undertaking when I convert. Good to know in advance.

Yep, Orthodox Jews don't recognise non-Orthodox conversions. Someone who converts via the Reform process is not considered Jewish and nor are their children unless the mother is an Orthodox Jew via birth or the conversion process.

Katrine
03-08-2008, 08:25 PM
Ladies and gentleman, please READ what Casual_Observer has referenced. Judaism isn't evangelical christianity with a "cool" twist. Its not a religion that wants you. Hence the overwhelming jealous over jews that has propogated over the years. I am closer to a jew than Yek will ever be (sorry) and they still do not accept me.

Hence, jews fucking rule. Very elitist. Respect it for what it is.

flickad
03-08-2008, 08:30 PM
Random: Is the Jewish G-d different from the Christian god. Like, not religions.. just the G-d? Because maybe if this G-d can have flaws and do what's best even if it hurts people and doesn't like to be cruel for no fucking reason (Job, anyone?)... I might like to believe in him.

I just can't believe in Christian god. Ever again.

But maybe Jew G-d is like, a cool groovy G-d.

The Jewish God is the God of the Old Testament, the very same one appearing in the Job story.

Katrine
03-08-2008, 08:32 PM
I can't get over the outright humour of the jewish god being more compassionate than the christian one?

Does anyone see the outright disguist in believing in a god as I do? Am I the only one who feels more comfortable knowing that there is nothing better than the life we live, here and now?

hockeybobby
03-08-2008, 08:34 PM
I can't get over the outright humour of the jewish god being more compassionate than the christian one?

Does anyone see the outright disguist in believing in a god as I do? Am I the only one who feels more comfortable knowing that there is nothing better than the life we live, here and now?

Kat: I agree with this

flickad
03-08-2008, 08:43 PM
Your side of this argument is so confusing. The Jews are saying one thing and you another and I'm not sure where you lie in the conversation, really.

Dude, creationism...a whooooole other can of worms I don't wanna get into right now. We can just work on the G-d bit for now.

Okay, I'm going to come clean here. I'm an ex-Jew, from birth, family Orthodox but secular. I rejected the religion before hitting puberty (a decision that's only cemented as I've aged) and dislike the Jew tag, that's why I never tell anyone about my origins. I even converted to another religion to escape the Jewish one, partly because of the prejudices of followers (no religion's followers are as tolerant as they profess to be, when the chips are all down) and partly because I found the theology illogical and the rabbis not responsive to questioning of a fundamental type (ie questioning foundational tenets), despite claiming to welcome intellectual probing at the religion's doctrines. So, I left the religion, but not before learning a helluvalot of intricacies regarding both it and its followers, partly from being raised by Jews and partly from attending Jewish schools, both Reform early on and ultra-Orthodox for much of my later school education.

Much of what Katrine says is completely and utterly true. I have a bloodline pedigree, am descended from Holocaust survivors (both maternal and paternal grandparents were in Auschwitz) and was never truly accepted by Orthodox Jews. Though they didn't deny I was Jewish by birth (when I was a child), they sure as hell judged my differences much more harshly than any irreligious secular types have before or since, were hostile to questioning and welcoming at only the surface level- you never truly penetrated into the cliques without being one of them in various respects, including blind faith and observance. Half-breed and Reform converts are considered Gentiles by Orthodox Jews- the conversion process isn't recognised.

I could go on but I don't want to come across as disrespectful to all Jews or as a bigot myself. I just want to say that the differences between Judaism and Christianity don't preclude the two being fucked up in some very similar ways at the core (both religiously and culturally), it's just much more hidden in Judaism, partly because the religion is so insular and so is the culture in terms of penetrating the deeper recesses (ie beyond invites to festive meals).

AlexxaHex
03-08-2008, 08:52 PM
I wish someone would have stopped those things from happening to you. I very rarely hate, it's just not me. But fuck, I hate that you had to suffer like that. Noting you could ever do, no matter what, could make you deserve that. You are special, and kind, and smart. And sooooo precious. It is beyond words that this happens.

I just want to also tell you you are loved, and there are so many people who care about you.

Yeah - what Lola said. :'( None of what happened is the fault of anyone BUT the person who abused you.
I just want to also say that you are a wonderful person and I've seen a LOT of positive changes happen in you. For fucks sake, you got out of a shitty situation, moved to another country, worked your ass off to get out of debt and into financial freedom and you're becoming so much more compassionate and sensitive to the world around you. Sometimes you frustrate the shit out of me but overall I think of you like a sister and it PAINS me to read about your unfortunate past. I've been through a lot of shit too, and I know just what GOOD can come out of negative situations. I also know what it's like to let the negativity take over. It really comes down to a matter of how you want to live your life and what you want each day to hold for you. You can wake up and feel like you are in control of your life, and that is the direction I see you going in.
God to me is not about religion, so I'm not going to get involved in the specific Jew stuff in this topic. It's not something I am an expert on, although I do think you can love yourself and the world around you without "converting" to anything. I feel the world is best experienced in it's natural state, one without any trappings other than simply BEING. I have long called myself a Satanist, which is basically saying that I am my own God. We are all Gods and we all have free will and choices to make all day long that leave us in control of ourselves. Giving up that control to an outside force (either real or imagined) is a good way to disconnect from yourself, I think.
If you feel as though the rituals in Judaism are providing a sense of peace and balance in your life, why not? What is it hurting? You don't have to know someone else's idea of God to enjoy rituals. I like them too, actually.
So I understand WHOLEHEARTEDLY where you are coming from. You have my support in whatever makes you happy.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 08:56 PM
I'm going to be bowing out of this thread soon because I think I've gotten what I needed out of it but...

I want to publicly thank Flick for her PMs to me. I didn't reply to them because I was still undecided and wanted to muse on her comments for awhile and let them steam inside me before making any rash comments, since she is a dear friend. So, thank you, Ms. Flick.

flickad
03-08-2008, 08:58 PM
Not to sound totally fucking off the wall but....

Is Sunday really bagel day?

Culturally, yes.

flickad
03-08-2008, 08:59 PM
I'm going to be bowing out of this thread soon because I think I've gotten what I needed out of it but...

I want to publicly thank Flick for her PMs to me. I didn't reply to them because I was still undecided and wanted to muse on her comments for awhile and let them steam inside me before making any rash comments, since she is a dear friend. So, thank you, Ms. Flick.
I didn't mean to offend you- I just want you not to make your decision based on idealism but make it knowing the whole picture and realising that you still want this.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 09:00 PM
Yeah - what Lola said. :'( None of what happened is the fault of anyone BUT the person who abused you.
I just want to also say that you are a wonderful person and I've seen a LOT of positive changes happen in you. For fucks sake, you got out of a shitty situation, moved to another country, worked your ass off to get out of debt and into financial freedom and you're becoming so much more compassionate and sensitive to the world around you. Sometimes you frustrate the shit out of me but overall I think of you like a sister and it PAINS me to read about your unfortunate past. I've been through a lot of shit too, and I know just what GOOD can come out of negative situations. I also know what it's like to let the negativity take over. It really comes down to a matter of how you want to live your life and what you want each day to hold for you. You can wake up and feel like you are in control of your life, and that is the direction I see you going in.
God to me is not about religion, so I'm not going to get involved in the specific Jew stuff in this topic. It's not something I am an expert on, although I do think you can love yourself and the world around you without "converting" to anything. I feel the world is best experienced in it's natural state, one without any trappings other than simply BEING. I have long called myself a Satanist, which is basically saying that I am my own God. We are all Gods and we all have free will and choices to make all day long that leave us in control of ourselves. Giving up that control to an outside force (either real or imagined) is a good way to disconnect from yourself, I think.
If you feel as though the rituals in Judaism are providing a sense of peace and balance in your life, why not? What is it hurting? You don't have to know someone else's idea of God to enjoy rituals. I like them too, actually.
So I understand WHOLEHEARTEDLY where you are coming from. You have my support in whatever makes you happy.

Oh more posts I missed...

Anyway, hahaha, I feel the same about you. You frustrate me too in that sister way. I think it's good, you've taught me a lot about myself, acceptance and to take a goddamn joke and to make one without going too far. You've helped me learn a lot in my life and I find myself glad I can thank you for that. It was really a good day in my life when we agreed to disagree and start again in that fateful thread.

I agree with your beliefs, actually. Honestly, I agree with a LOT of beliefs because I truly believe all religions and beliefs are true - to the person who believes them. (So I believe in God in a really roundabout way, I suppose).

I'm glad you see what I mean. I feel more release with the rituals of Judaism and don't feel I'm 'going through the motions' at all as Lola said earlier because I beleive that's right. Going through the motions for me would be going to a Christian church.

:hug:

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 09:01 PM
I didn't mean to offend you- I just want you not to make your decision based on idealism but make it knowing the whole picture and realising that you still want this.

No no! You didn't offend me! I was swallowing your advice because I knew it was what you were saying to do what's best for me. I wanted to thank you for that but wanted you to know I had nothing to reply because I didn't know WHAT to reply with - I'm still deciding after all.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 09:02 PM
Culturally, yes.

Holy crap. A day for bagels. This makes me happy in a childish way.

Katrine
03-08-2008, 09:05 PM
Thank you flickad. Without having to quote the details, I am glad you see if from my perspective. Judaism isn't simply a religion. And even if you enjoy the ritualistic aspects, you cannot deny the religious basis. Its all really complex. Insular, as flickad said. Hence the misunderstanding of jews, and subsequent resentment.

Let's accept judaism and jews for what it is instead of trying to christianize it as a "cool" religion. Those are my own words, not anyone else, btw.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 09:06 PM
Anyway, got what I needed from this thread. I have gotten the views of different kinds of Jews, from reformed to Orthodox to not-even-Jew anymore. It's good to see all sides as I make my decision so I don't go into it blindly, and I appreciate ALL (yes, Kat you too) your advice on my situation.

I will chew on this until and through when I go to Shabbat on Saturday.

Katrine
03-08-2008, 09:08 PM
Thanks, I hope you don't have to go through the frustration and rejection that I had to go through. And I'm partially of the tribe. Just don't expect it to be all latke, Manishevitz, and gefilte fish. Cerously though, its still religion, which is completely unessecary for you. Fuck, cant spell. anymore, must sleep soon....

flickad
03-08-2008, 09:10 PM
I can't get over the outright humour of the jewish god being more compassionate than the christian one?

Does anyone see the outright disguist in believing in a god as I do? Am I the only one who feels more comfortable knowing that there is nothing better than the life we live, here and now?

Nope, I've been an athiest since I was 13, with occasional agnostic periods.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 09:11 PM
Thanks, I hope you don't have to go through the frustration and rejection that I had to go through. And I'm partially of the tribe. Just don't expect it to be all latke, Manishevitz, and gefilte fish. Cerously though, its still religion, which is completely unessecary for you. Fuck, cant spell. anymore, must sleep soon....

I don't think religion is necessary either. But it makes me feel better.

AlexxaHex
03-08-2008, 09:12 PM
I'm glad I could be any kind of positive person in your life, Lysondra. What you said means a lot to me.
Have some matza ball soup for me. I can't have any since I gave up eggs.

Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 09:29 PM
I'm holding my tongue and stepping out of this thread before I say something very rude.

Good luck, Lysondra.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 09:35 PM
I'm holding my tongue and stepping out of this thread before I say something very rude.

Good luck, Lysondra.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone.

MsQwerty
03-08-2008, 09:39 PM
Lysondra, slightly off topic but not completely. Did you ever watch any of John Saffrans programmes? He is Jewish by birth but an atheist and does made some great shows about different religions. I have the series John Saffran Verses God on dvd if you would like to borrow it, its great! I just think youd like it.



This thread is a good example of why religion should be a personal thing...

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 09:41 PM
I watched the whole series. I even mentioned him in a Christian thread two days ago! :P

MsQwerty
03-08-2008, 09:43 PM
Cool - I love it! Theres some of his other stuff on youtube which is pretty funny too.

Christian thread? Ha, I wont got there lol!

flickad
03-08-2008, 09:44 PM
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone.

I think it's probably me who offended her. I didn't mean to offend anyone either- just calling it from my experience, to provide a balanced view and so as to enable a more truly informed choice. If that offended some, I apologise for that offence.

flickad
03-08-2008, 09:46 PM
Lysondra, slightly off topic but not completely. Did you ever watch any of John Saffrans programmes? He is Jewish by birth but an atheist and does made some great shows about different religions. I have the series John Saffran Verses God on dvd if you would like to borrow it, its great! I just think youd like it.

http://www.johnsafran.com/

This thread is a good example of why religion should be a personal thing...

I love John Safran. He actually went to the male equivalent of the ultra-Orthodox girls school I went to (it was actually over the fence, believe it or not) and came out with similar views to mine, so I really identify with his humour.

Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 09:47 PM
No, neither of you guys offended me. I just think it's interesting that in all my years as a Jewish woman, I get the most discrimination from goyim. ::)

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 09:50 PM
Dude, there's a word for 'everyone but Jews'. Cool. *dictionary.com, yo*

:hug: Yek... do you think I could make it as a Jew, honestly? You said before I even mentioned it was Judaism I was fond of that Atheist Jews could exist if they were a more liberal (and less recognized) form. One of the major synagogues near me is supremely Progressive.

But but... do you see me as a Jew? Ignore the atheism, ignore the back-and-forth thoughts... but personally. Could you look at me at go, "She'd make a great Jewish girl someday."?

Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 10:01 PM
Well, we aren't all alike. We do retain individuality and personality. Not many of the Jewish girls I know have all that much in common personality-wise.

I think you'd be right at home within the Reconstructionist movement, and I think you should definitely study Judaism and explore. Books are the best place to start. Once you learn a bit more you'll have a better idea of whether you really have a Jewish soul or not. But the fact that you're this interested is a sign that you might!

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 10:02 PM
Your faith means a lot to me Yek, thank you. It gives me hope.

Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 10:14 PM
Let me know if you ever have topics to discuss. I love to talk about this stuff and I'm trying to become more observant again myself. Pick up those two Kushner books, too, they're the best place to start.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 10:16 PM
Thanks!!

Also, I just told my mum my plans. You know what she did?

"Oh! I have a book here on Why Do Jews Do ____!! I'll send it to you for Easter!!"

*head....desk*

Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 10:21 PM
Better than when I told my mom I was converting to Judaism. I was 12 and I might as well have told her I was running away to marry Warren Jeffs. She absolutely freaked, LOL! I still don't know where I found the strength to stick with it for the next six years under some seriously relentless pressure. Now she just doesn't mention religion at all and pretends I'm agnostic or something.

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 10:23 PM
Yeah, at least my mum is super understanding. She believes the same I do - that all religions are true for those people and if people are happy and not hurting anyone with their beliefs, who cares?

But she just doesn't get it, hahaha. She asked me if I was still gonna celebrate 4th of July. I had to explain to her the 5 reasons why I don't.

Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 10:31 PM
You bad girl you! I celebrated the Fourth of July in Australia and the hell with all my neighbors who couldn't understand why I was playing with sparklers and grilling steaks outside on a gloomy Thursday in midwinter. :D

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 10:37 PM
You bad girl you! I celebrated the Fourth of July in Australia and the hell with all my neighbors who couldn't understand why I was playing with sparklers and grilling steaks outside on a gloomy Thursday in midwinter. :D

They understand if you say 'free beer'. This I have learned about Australians.

Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 10:38 PM
Yup. I had a friend come over after class for the Fourth once and we drank beer, ate peanut butter cookies, and watched Michael Moore movies to celebrate America. She thought it was a pretty bloody good holiday.

Don't even ask me about Australia Day at Misha's apartment last year in Hollywood, LOL!

Lysondra
03-08-2008, 10:41 PM
I heard about it. It was pretty much the ame idea. 'Free beer'.

Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 10:52 PM
Oh no honey, it was Bundaberg Dark & Stormy and sausage sizzle and a lot of screaming "AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE, OI OI OI" at three in the morning. I'm sure the neighbors were thrilled. The only thing we were missing was beach cricket!

I think we've earned first place in the Thread Drift category.