View Full Version : Converting Religions - Is there a RIGHT reason?
Pages :
1
2
3
4
5
[
6]
7
8
9
10
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 10:53 PM
Let's have a deep meaningful convesation of what Judaism means to us.
AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE OI OI OI! BEER BEER BEER!
Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 10:55 PM
Well hey, Purim IS coming up soon... ;D
The Talmud commands us to get fucking trashed! And yes, those are the words. I believe it was Rashi who said, "And on the Celebration of the Lots, let us all get totally fucking trashed and eat some yummy cookies."
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 10:58 PM
DUDE I saw that the first thing you had to do was drink wine. HERE'S SOME WINE...now let's pray.
Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 10:59 PM
There is an old saying that you can boil down almost every Jewish holiday thusly:
"They tried to kill us, we survived, let's eat."
hockeybobby
03-08-2008, 11:00 PM
There is an old saying that you can boil down almost every Jewish holiday thusly:
"They tried to kill us, we survived, let's eat."
Good one Yek ;D
hockeybobby
03-08-2008, 11:01 PM
Let's have a deep meaningful convesation of what Judaism means to us.
AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE OI OI OI! BEER BEER BEER!
Jewtoberfest
Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 11:02 PM
If only Yom Kippur came with feasting and wine, I'd be happy as a dead pig in the sunshine.
Lysondra
03-08-2008, 11:02 PM
There is an old saying that you can boil down almost every Jewish holiday thusly:
"They tried to kill us, we survived, let's eat."
This is gonna be one hell of a tasty religion. :drool:
Yekhefah
03-08-2008, 11:04 PM
A tip before I go to bed: Sephardi food is WAY better than Ashkenazi food.
ellebelle
03-08-2008, 11:39 PM
I think I learned quite a bit from this thread.
flickad
03-08-2008, 11:54 PM
There is an old saying that you can boil down almost every Jewish holiday thusly:
"They tried to kill us, we survived, let's eat."
Oh, the other side of the coin is, 'They tried to kill us, we survived, let's fast' (though Yom Kippur's a bit of a variation). Fast days abound in Orthodox Judaism, though the people I knew who actually fasted all the days that you're supposed to fast were pretty damned religious (think Lubuvich- black hats for men and the modesty rules of dress for women, plus a fervent messianical bent), though I did go to school with one girl, only moderately religious (kosher at home, vegetarian non-kosher out, kept shabbat, wore whatever), who did all the fast days for weight loss purposes. My family never really were religious at all, though having gone to religious schools, I knew plenty of ultra-Orthodox types. My background was traditional, sure, in some ways, religious never. Dad is the person who introduced me to the joys of crustaceans in grade one or two, and his mother kept ham in the house, though oddly enough both sets of grandparents observed Passover quite strictly. Three out of four of my grandparents, like a lot of concentration camp survivors, became atheists, though they identified culturally with Judaism and referred to themselves as Jews (like Lys, they just didn't think there was a god after the experiences they'd had). Personally I found the culture just as problematic as the religion, though I'm almost alone in my family on that one.
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 12:24 AM
I think I learned quite a bit from this thread.
Yeah, you learned who to avoid giving a Christmas present to next year you greedy woman! :P
ellebelle
03-09-2008, 12:27 AM
Hey - I openly admit that I think receiving more than giving.
Damn I before E except after C.
See - I learned something in this thread. So did my neighbour.
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 12:28 AM
Hey - I openly admit that I think receiving more than giving.
Damn I before E except after C.
See - I learned something in this thread. So did my neighbour.
I totally lolled.
GoldCoastGirl
03-09-2008, 12:47 AM
It's given me food for thought as well except not in relation to Judaism.
On a lighter note, I have loved how entertaining this thread was overall! ;D
Fuck the sex thread... :laughing:
ellebelle
03-09-2008, 12:49 AM
I'm a funny gal, that's why I wear funny hats.
If you become a Jew you too can wear funny hats. Previous to this thread and some episodes of Entourage this was my complete knowledge of Jewish culture.
flickad
03-09-2008, 01:10 AM
Holy crap. A day for bagels. This makes me happy in a childish way.
Well, they tend to form part of Sunday brunch rather than being the focus of the day ;), but it's a very common tradition among Ashkenazi Jews. The whole lox/cream cheese thing also makes an appearance quite often in some families.
P.S.- Maybe you should have a chat to a Rabbi when you come to Melbourne for the SW fest and ask any questions you might have. There's a substantial Jewish population in the inner South Eastern suburbs here (Caulfield, Balaclava, East St Kilda, Bentleigh, Carnegie, Glenhuntly, Elsternwick, Elwood, Malvern), and at least you won't have to worry about alienating the Brisbane Rabbis. Do some internet research to find a Rabbi in your area and sect of choice, and perhaps book an appointment ahead of time if you want to be sure of getting your questions answered.
Kaylinn
03-09-2008, 03:29 AM
Hi! Sorry to pop my head in here, but I read this thread, and then I read the JewFAQ's...
And I just gotta say...i'm lovin this religion!
from jewfaq.org
Sex is the woman's right, not the man's. A man has a duty to give his wife sex regularly and to ensure that sex is pleasurable for her. He is also obligated to watch for signs that his wife wants sex, and to offer it to her without her asking for it. The woman's right to sexual intercourse is referred to as onah, and it is one of a wife's three basic rights (the others are food and clothing), which a husband may not reduce. The specifies both the quantity and quality of sex that a man must give his wife. It specifies the frequency of sexual obligation based on the husband's occupation, although this obligation can be modified in the (marriage contract). A man may not take a vow to abstain from sex for an extended period of time, and may not take a journey for an extended period of time, because that would deprive his wife of sexual relations. In addition, a husband's consistent refusal to engage in sexual relations is grounds for compelling a man to his wife, even if the couple has already fulfilled the obligation to procreate
seriously...I myself have been searching for quite some time fo a religion...or spirituality I can align myself with. That's why I read this thread and followed the links...I'm exploring many religions, trying to find one I can believe in. mostly tho, 'm just trying to find a way to be spiritual. I, like you, Lys, am athiest, but want something....
flickad
03-09-2008, 04:11 AM
No, neither of you guys offended me. I just think it's interesting that in all my years as a Jewish woman, I get the most discrimination from goyim. ::)
For the record, Yek, though I might have the requisite unbroken maternal orthodox bloodline (on the paternal side too, in fact), you're Jewish in your heart and beliefs and I'm not. Since religion, to me, is something you either believe or not (though it's not only acceptance of the religion that makes you a member, it's one of the factors), I consider myself not to be Jewish and you to be, whether or not the Jewish orthodoxy recognise either your conversion or mine. It is commitment and action (ie conversion, practice), not only accident of birth, that make you part of a religious group. You can choose to be in or out by taking certain steps. Your posts suggest, that in a lot of ways, you think like a Jew (in fact I used to think you were born one and wonder vaguely at your Southern girl appearance). Your way of seeing the world isn't out of step with that of a lot of the Jews I grew up with (some of my mother's spiritual views, too, come to think of it), including your connection to Israel. I've never thought like a Jew in my life. I've always been secular as all hell in my way of seeing the world and I've never felt at all connected to Israel. Spiritual colouring of things has never made any sense to me, has never resonated for me, and that's something that is woven all through Judaism.
I've been told the orthodoxy don't recognise conversions out of Judaism if you're born a Jew, which frustrates the fuck out of me and is a major reason I don't tell most that I'm of Jewish descent. Actually, I like to play up the suspected Polish Catholic blood in my grandfather's family, which seemed evident to us all in classic Slavic features and colouring, which also got passed down to my mother, who has a classic Polish Shiksa face despite her mother's unmistakably dark, soft Jewish looks (I got Mum's Slavic cheekbones and Dad's Jewish nose, though most people think it looks Greek).
Anyways, I'm afraid (and this is backed up by some experiences) that my decision to no longer be a member of that religion will be treated as meaningless, baptism or no (though I really did think my baptism would work to get certain people to accept the fact of my non-membership in the Jewish faith). I don't know why I care so much, and in some ways I don't (why should I accept a view that a rabbinical decree I disagree with sets the agenda here?) but in another I find it horribly disconcerting that the attempt has been made to dictate my own religious identity to me. I'll add that most people do accept that I have converted out and am not now a Jew, but some just won't accept it as valid.
StrawberrySwitchblade
03-09-2008, 04:51 AM
Lys, just popping in to say great big hugs for you. I support you 110%, and I'm not going to throw in Why you can do this, or You can't do that, or Why would you even believe in this? Just a silent supporter! Good luck on finding what is out there for you!
flickad
03-09-2008, 05:10 AM
Hi! Sorry to pop my head in here, but I read this thread, and then I read the JewFAQ's...
And I just gotta say...i'm lovin this religion!
from jewfaq.org
seriously...I myself have been searching for quite some time fo a religion...or spirituality I can align myself with. That's why I read this thread and followed the links...I'm exploring many religions, trying to find one I can believe in. mostly tho, 'm just trying to find a way to be spiritual. I, like you, Lys, am athiest, but want something....
If you're orthodox, though, oral sex is out as is sex or touching per se for two weeks out of every four. Not every Jew obeys every last Jewish law, of course, but you do have to pick and choose your sect and level of religiosity to find what's comfortable. Things like JewFAQs will give you an incomplete, shallow picture of what is a complex religious tapestry.
It's very important to be thorough about research before committing, though I'm not saying that Judaism's not suitable for anyone (it resonates very very deeply for some, and those who feel a genuine connection to the faith are often prepared to follow even some of the curlier Jewish laws- one of my aunts by marriage is an orthodox convert whose faith is exceedingly deep, and her practice is also terribly strict, much more so than any of the blood members of my family- she is also horrified by my atheism in a way that none of my blood relatives are). Just saying that there's a lot to it, and various sects, and it's something to really investigate and experience over time on a number of levels (culturally, socially, religiously) before you can know if it's something that will resonate with you and that you will be able to genuinely participate in.
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 06:05 AM
Thanks everyone who PMed me or posted just to say they supported me. I got quite a few lovely comments and thank you from deep down.
I went to my Synagogue today. It was so pretty. Closed (11pm on a Sunday, yannow) but the outside was so pretty. I can't wait to go in. I might go in tomorrow.
Lola Rose
03-09-2008, 08:58 AM
I've been told the orthodoxy don't recognise conversions out of Judaism if you're born a Jew, which frustrates the fuck out of me and is a major reason I don't tell most that I'm of Jewish descent.
******************************
I don't know why I care so much, and in some ways I don't (why should I accept a view that a rabbinical decree I disagree with sets the agenda here?) but in another I find it horribly disconcerting that the attempt has been made to dictate my own religious identity to me. I'll add that most people do accept that I have converted out and am not now a Jew, but some just won't accept it as valid.
yep, if you are born with a jewish soul, you cannot make it disapear, or die. Which is what would be necessary to convert out of judiasm. Also, those who truely convert (under orthodoxy) cannot ever convert back out. it's a life sentance, so to speak.
Just saying this for educational purposes, I'll make no public opinions reguarding it.
Lola Rose
03-09-2008, 09:04 AM
If you're orthodox, though, oral sex is out as is sex or touching per se for two weeks out of every four. Not every Jew obeys every last Jewish law, of course, but you do have to pick and choose your sect and level of religiosity to find what's comfortable. Things like JewFAQs will give you an incomplete, shallow picture of what is a complex religious tapestry.
It's very important to be thorough about research before committing, though I'm not saying that Judaism's not suitable for anyone (it resonates very very deeply for some, and those who feel a genuine connection to the faith are often prepared to follow even some of the curlier Jewish laws- one of my aunts by marriage is an orthodox convert whose faith is exceedingly deep, and her practice is also terribly strict, much more so than any of the blood members of my family- she is also horrified by my atheism in a way that none of my blood relatives are). Just saying that there's a lot to it, and various sects, and it's something to really investigate and experience over time on a number of levels (culturally, socially, religiously) before you can know if it's something that will resonate with you and that you will be able to genuinely participate in.
I just wanted to quote this for truth.
a jewish woman is not supposed to touch her husban if she has not been to mikvah. So, after her period is over, she must have 12 completely blood free days
before she goes to the mikva (ritual bathing) and then they can have sex. This is hell for people who have short cycle, mid cycle bleeding, or early ovulation (for those wanting to get pregnant).
I want so badly to keep mikva, but I would not be able to get pregnant then, most likely, b/c I generally ovulate before 12 blood free days.
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 09:04 AM
Duly noted.
Either way, I can't wait. <3
Lola Rose
03-09-2008, 09:16 AM
Good luck!
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 09:18 AM
:hyper:
flickad
03-09-2008, 09:35 AM
yep, if you are born with a jewish soul, you cannot make it disapear, or die. Which is what would be necessary to convert out of judiasm. Also, those who truely convert (under orthodoxy) cannot ever convert back out. it's a life sentance, so to speak.
Just saying this for educational purposes, I'll make no public opinions reguarding it.
I've never identified with Judaism and deeply doubt that I have a Jewish soul. Accident of birth doesn't necessarily determine the type of soul you have- I've always felt very secular and haven't been able to identify with any spiritual principles beyond certain Catholic rituals, though the actual religion behind those rituals never truly resonated for me either. I was born into an orthodox Jewish (though basically irreligious) family and had a very thorough Jewish education (most of it Hasidic) and yet none of it has ever resonated for me on an emotional level, nor has it made much intellectual sense to me- I find the theology to be contradictory and doubtful in various respects, though I can also appreciate that others find much wisdom in it (I won't say I don't like Hillel though- his words are just utterly universal). I found the culture stifling from a very early age (not that I'm saying there are no good aspects to the religion or the culture, but neither suited my particular propensities in the least). The evidence of my soul being a Jewish one appears scanty. If, for argument's sake, it can be true that a gentile might be born with a soul that is Jewish, it must conversely also be true that a Jew by birth can yet have a soul that is not, and can thus opt out of the faith quite conclusively.
I don't believe that birth in a Jewish body translates to having a soul that matches, and I guess being told that it does and that I can never escape the faith makes me feel very trapped, since I really do find Judaism to be a very poor fit for me. I realise that the fact of a religious doctrinal decree isn't necessarily going to trap me in actuality (dogma's existence isn't the same as its truth), but hearing it brings back the childhood feeling of being stifled and trapped by the religion, brings back the fear that I can't ever get out.
I hope I haven't insulted anyone, I realise that Judaism can feel like a very warm place to be for many of its followers, my own family included (and hell, I love my mother intensely, but we just agree to disagree on religious issues), but it just wasn't that way for me.
Yekhefah
03-09-2008, 10:03 AM
If Jewish souls can be born into non-Jewish families, then it makes sense that sometimes a non-Jewish soul can be born into a Jewish family. That sounds so sad though, I can imagine how frustrating it must be.
Have you heard David Cross' bit on that? He's the same, born Jewish and doesn't identify with it and wants to not be Jewish. "I don't believe it, I don't feel it, I'm not." "But was your mother's vagina Jewish?" "Well, yes. Yes it was." "Then you're a Jew!" "What the fuck!"
Anyway, thanks for your kind words, I appreciate them.
Oh, and Lola, I used to do the niddah thing. I hadn't considered early ovulation, that sucks! There's a minority opinion somewhere in the Talmud, I think, that only requires a seven-day separation (assuming you're no longer bleeding when that week ends). Could you do that instead? That way you'd get the spirit of the mitzvah but you wouldn't miss your fertile days.
flickad
03-09-2008, 10:20 AM
If Jewish souls can be born into non-Jewish families, then it makes sense that sometimes a non-Jewish soul can be born into a Jewish family. That sounds so sad though, I can imagine how frustrating it must be.
Have you heard David Cross' bit on that? He's the same, born Jewish and doesn't identify with it and wants to not be Jewish. "I don't believe it, I don't feel it, I'm not." "But was your mother's vagina Jewish?" "Well, yes. Yes it was." "Then you're a Jew!" "What the fuck!"
Anyway, thanks for your kind words, I appreciate them.
No, this David Cross sounds like someone I have to check out.
I don't know anyone who was born and raised a Jew yet considers themselves not to be one- it seems that genuinely opting out is pretty rare and that even religiously lapsed Jews will still call themselves Jews rather than rejecting the whole thing outright, so this guy sounds like someone I'd want to read about.
I've met a few people who were born into other religions yet feel and want to be Jewish, and I've often felt the urge to diverse myself of my pedigree by giving it to one of them!
Lola Rose
03-09-2008, 11:05 AM
I don't believe that birth in a Jewish body translates to having a soul that matches, and I guess being told that it does and that I can never escape the faith makes me feel very trapped, since I really do find Judaism to be a very poor fit for me. I realise that the fact of a religious doctrinal decree isn't necessarily going to trap me in actuality (dogma's existence isn't the same as its truth), but hearing it brings back the childhood feeling of being stifled and trapped by the religion, brings back the fear that I can't ever get out.
I hope I haven't insulted anyone, I realise that Judaism can feel like a very warm place to be for many of its followers, my own family included (and hell, I love my mother intensely, but we just agree to disagree on religious issues), but it just wasn't that way for me.
I'm not insulted, and I hope I didn't insult you either. I justr wanted to say that, b/c so far, I think this has been a great thread, with a lot of different opinions, and I just want to keep that up. I do not mean to make you feel trapped at all, and I do understand how that is quite probably whay I did. I'm sorry.
Oh, and Lola, I used to do the niddah thing. I hadn't considered early ovulation, that sucks! There's a minority opinion somewhere in the Talmud, I think, that only requires a seven-day separation (assuming you're no longer bleeding when that week ends). Could you do that instead? That way you'd get the spirit of the mitzvah but you wouldn't miss your fertile days.
I am definatly going to look into this. I have been so hoping to be able to be able to do this, I'm furiously researching!!! Thanks yek, I've never heard of this
[email protected]!!! :D
Yekhefah
03-09-2008, 11:13 AM
I would think it would be better than not doing the mitzvah at all. If the mikvah lady gives you any crap, just go to the beach! I used to immerse in the Pacific when I was in Australia and it was beautiful. I've always preferred outdoor mikvaot.
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 11:16 AM
:hyper:
hardkandee
03-09-2008, 11:35 AM
^I love that little caffeinated smiley.
I'm very interested to know how everything turns out for you. I'm sure you will, but please keep up informed. :)
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 11:36 AM
:hyper: Okay!
Lola Rose
03-09-2008, 12:47 PM
I would think it would be better than not doing the mitzvah at all. If the mikvah lady gives you any crap, just go to the beach! I used to immerse in the Pacific when I was in Australia and it was beautiful. I've always preferred outdoor mikvaot.
ok, I'm going to ask my rabbi about it too..... I'm not going to do it this cycle, so hopefully I'll just be KO and can then go to the mikvah and not have to worry about it for 9 months!
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 12:49 PM
^:hyper:?
Yekhefah
03-09-2008, 12:54 PM
Do you love immersion as much as I do? I've marked almost every major event in my adult life with it, not just periods. One of the most amazing moments of my life was an impulsive immersion in in Tasmania... unbelievably cold but my life changed there. The two times I went to an indoor mikvah it wasn't a spiritual experience at all for me, at least not to the extent that outdoor immersion was.
I should find a place to dip in Portland. I haven't immersed in years and now would be a good time to do it.
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 12:59 PM
:help2: :hyper:
Lola Rose
03-09-2008, 01:17 PM
yek:
http://www.chabadoregon.com/templates/articlecco_cdo/aid/355851/jewish/Mikvah.htm
Yekhefah
03-09-2008, 01:32 PM
Lysondra, you always make me laugh!
Thanks for the link, Lola! If I can't find a secluded lake, I'll give them a call. I just hate going to indoor mikvaot because I can't stand getting the third degree from the mikvah ladies. They take all the beauty and magic out of it and reduce it to mechanics, and they always want to get into a pedigree discussion. But maybe Chabad would be different, I've always found them to be welcoming.
BTW, Lys, just in case you get the idea... don't immerse until you convert. Your conversion should be the first one.
Lola Rose
03-09-2008, 01:39 PM
Lysondra, you always make me laugh!
Thanks for the link, Lola! If I can't find a secluded lake, I'll give them a call. I just hate going to indoor mikvaot because I can't stand getting the third degree from the mikvah ladies. They take all the beauty and magic out of it and reduce it to mechanics, and they always want to get into a pedigree discussion. But maybe Chabad would be different, I've always found them to be welcoming.
BTW, Lys, just in case you get the idea... don't immerse until you convert. Your conversion should be the first one.
I've never had them ask me any questions I felt uncomfortable with..... I've only ever been to an indoor mikvah. And also only by chabad. Mostly at ones where I know the rebitson, but not always.
I've never imersed for the purpose of the mitzvos in a outside body of water, only indoors.
I love it, especially how beautiful and spa like they are..... it's just amazing. Whenever I've been, it's always calm and lovely, and when I'm in the water, and I usually take my time, and use it as an introspection/prayer time.
Yekhefah
03-09-2008, 01:43 PM
I'll have to try that Chabad one then. I tried two at Orthodox synagogues where I wasn't a member, and the mikvah ladies made it feel like the Spanish Inquisition. They rushed the whole thing too, like it was some nasty business to get over with. I totally understood why the practice has all but disappeared when I went there... immersion outdoors is lovely though, just you and G-d and nature. My conversion was in a lovely lake on a summer day and I've never gotten over the beauty of it.
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 01:46 PM
Lysondra, you always make me laugh!
Thanks for the link, Lola! If I can't find a secluded lake, I'll give them a call. I just hate going to indoor mikvaot because I can't stand getting the third degree from the mikvah ladies. They take all the beauty and magic out of it and reduce it to mechanics, and they always want to get into a pedigree discussion. But maybe Chabad would be different, I've always found them to be welcoming.
BTW, Lys, just in case you get the idea... don't immerse until you convert. Your conversion should be the first one.
Definitely. I'm just shoving more of my excitement into this thread 'cause I'm really EXCITED.
:hyper:
And omg. I went on a date last night and NONE of the food was kosher. Like... NONE. If they had cow, it was on mashed potatoes with cheese and butter... the soup of the day was chicken parmesan... the special was the crab or the fish 'n' chips.... fuuuuck. D: Now I'm gonna have to explain before dates that I have to eat kosher so take they should that into consideration before booking a restaurant!
And now.. back to your earlier scheduled program: :hyper:
Yekhefah
03-09-2008, 01:47 PM
Keeping kosher is so much easier when you eat vegetarian.
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 01:48 PM
But there wasn't even vegetarian options on the menu.
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 01:49 PM
I'm not saying keeping kosher is hard... I'm just saying I really didn't think I'd have to tell people straight up before a first date to remember I'm kosher so please take that into consideration before booking us a resturant, is all.
Lola Rose
03-09-2008, 01:52 PM
I don't think I've ever had an issue not finding anything to eat in a resturant.... worst comes to worst, tell them you're veggie, and they can usually make something special.
fish and chips can be kosher, depending on the fish....
Lola Rose
03-09-2008, 01:55 PM
I'll have to try that Chabad one then. I tried two at Orthodox synagogues where I wasn't a member, and the mikvah ladies made it feel like the Spanish Inquisition. They rushed the whole thing too, like it was some nasty business to get over with. I totally understood why the practice has all but disappeared when I went there... immersion outdoors is lovely though, just you and G-d and nature. My conversion was in a lovely lake on a summer day and I've never gotten over the beauty of it.
most of the time, the rebitson is the only one there, and since it's by appt usually, it's less of an issue. Maybe email her to talk about your previous bad experiences of being hurried and interrigated, and ask how things are in their mikvah. That way, she's especially unlikely to give you the 3rd degree.
Yekhefah
03-09-2008, 01:55 PM
The word "kosher" confuses people so I've always just said I was a vegetarian, even when I wasn't. Vegetarian airline meals taste a damn sight better than kosher ones anyway! And yeah, if you talk to the waiter they can usually come up with something, even though it annoys the chef in a fine restaurant.
Just be glad you're not really strict at keeping kosher or you wouldn't be able to eat out at all!