View Full Version : Converting Religions - Is there a RIGHT reason?
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Lysondra
03-09-2008, 01:56 PM
Wasn't a kosher fish. It was swordfish. :(
And the chips were fried in pig fat.
Like this resturant was SERIOUSLY not veggie/kosher at all. Not a thing. This is Australia - land of bacon and bbqs. Nobody eats kosher and rarely do people eat vegetarian. It's just not common here.
That and it was Italian food. :/
Yekhefah
03-09-2008, 01:56 PM
most of the time, the rebitson is the only one there, and since it's by appt usually, it's less of an issue. Maybe email her to talk about your previous bad experiences of being hurried and interrigated, and ask how things are in their mikvah. That way, she's especially unlikely to give you the 3rd degree.
Oh, awesome idea. Thank you.
Lola Rose
03-09-2008, 02:01 PM
Wasn't a kosher fish. It was swordfish. :(
And the chips were fried in pig fat.
Like this resturant was SERIOUSLY not veggie/kosher at all. Not a thing. This is Australia - land of bacon and bbqs. Nobody eats kosher and rarely do people eat vegetarian. It's just not common here.
That and it was Italian food. :/
italian=fish n chips :O
Lola Rose
03-09-2008, 02:02 PM
Oh, awesome idea. Thank you.
fo sho!!!!
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 02:08 PM
italian=fish n chips :O
I didn't even think about that one, actually. It's just so common to see fish 'n' chips on a menu. And this place was even called Venice. hahaha.
flickad
03-09-2008, 03:01 PM
I'm not insulted, and I hope I didn't insult you either. I justr wanted to say that, b/c so far, I think this has been a great thread, with a lot of different opinions, and I just want to keep that up. I do not mean to make you feel trapped at all, and I do understand how that is quite probably whay I did. I'm sorry.
I don't feel like you've been insulting, either. Very respectful, actually, so thank you!
I've often wondered how your family coped with you stripping, becoming less frum and being with a non-Jew- are you still fully accepted by your family and childhood friends? Were there storms when you broke away a bit? I've known a lot of Hasidim and I think most of them would not cope well with those things, especially someone in their family dancing, so I'm interested to find out how a real-life Hasidic family did cope.
Your family are Lubavich, yes?
kitana
03-09-2008, 03:26 PM
Pft... when I was a good little Christian girl going to Christian school, people sure as HELL picked and chose what they wanted. Dude even my school uniform in Christian school was a cotton/poly blend. I mean, really. That's against the bible. Saying you can't 'pick and chose' your beliefs in a religion is silly. NOBODY can control what they believe in and NOBODY is going to agree with 100% of something - ever. I have never seen a single Christian/Jew/Buddhist/Catholic/ChurchofEngland/Muslim do every. single. little. itty. bitty. thing. in a religion. They sure as FUCK pick and choose. Every one of them!
Dude, I've even seen some Hasidics doing a bit of the naughty involving some things.
The thing is that Judaism revloves solely (mostly) around G-d, belief in G-d and Love and Respect for G-d.
I convered cause I didn't believe the Jesus stuff, but I certainly believed and loved G-d. Judaism, as I learned more and more about it, was a perfect fit for me and my beliefs in G-d and family and community and life in general.
It's not one of those religions you can just try out, IMO. Either you have the passion or you don't.
Lola Rose
03-09-2008, 03:27 PM
I don't feel like you've been insulting, either. Very respectful, actually, so thank you!
I've often wondered how your family coped with you stripping, becoming less frum and being with a non-Jew- are you still fully accepted by your family and childhood friends? Were there storms when you broke away a bit? I've known a lot of Hasidim and I think most of them would not cope well with those things, especially someone in their family dancing, so I'm interested to find out how a real-life Hasidic family did cope.
Your family are Lubavich, yes?
you're welcome, and I'm glad. A lot of times online I
yes, they are lubavitchers. No one knows I stripped in my family, and only a few friends knew. My mom did know I worked in a bar, but as a cocktail waitress. My other family members thought I was a nanny.
My parents have always been very accepting. At the same time, I do not share many things with them. I act like me, but I wear a skirt and long sleves, instead of a tee and jeans. I do it out of respect, they know I do not always dress that way. But I have a lot of young family members, to be a good example by.
My mom likes Rob, and knows he isn't jewish, and is ok with that. She'll be at my wedding, which means so much to me. If a brother was to do the same thing, it would be a lot worse tho.
I went to a private school, but got mixed up in drugs.... I was given the choice of moving to live with an aunt, and to stop fucking up, or to be expelled. I moved with my aunt but kept doing drugs, mostly x, some coke too tho. I eventually realized I'd die if I didn't stop. So I did, and I no longer see any of those friends, some who are jewish, some who were not.
Even while I was messed up in drugs, I was keeping kosher and was still frum. After I moved away, it became harder, and that aunt as well is not as religious as my family. I no longer had a bunch of resturants, tons of jew peers, or a very active shul, so I sort of just drifted, and then became much more secular.
now I feel like I've gone full circle, I left, and now I want to return. I am so lucky Rob is so open to this. He doesn't want to convert or anything, but he is happy to go to services with me and really enjoys it. He is open to niddah and mikvah practice, and to kosher if I so choose.
Lola Rose
03-09-2008, 03:29 PM
I didn't even think about that one, actually. It's just so common to see fish 'n' chips on a menu. And this place was even called Venice. hahaha.
haha! that was my first thought. i've never heard of fnc being swardfish..... but sometimes it is catfish here in the south ::) I like it with tilapia or something mild and clean.
this thread has gotten wierd!
flickad
03-09-2008, 03:32 PM
^
Yeah, my family aren't that religious, and dancing freaked them out big time when I told them. Not telling's probably the kindest thing.
You're lucky your family is quite accepting, a lot aren't. One of my uncles married a Catholic and, though everyone still accepts him as part of the family, no-one ever quite got over it.
GoldCoastGirl
03-09-2008, 05:12 PM
I'm not jewish however I have to agree with the others.. Just tell the date before-hand that you don't eat any meat including seafood thus will require a restaurant with vegetarian (non meat) options. This is much easier than saying to someone you are kosher. Plus if they ask why you do not eat meat, just say "because I choose not to do so" .. they don't need to know anything more than that esp. as a first date.
People are more accepting of being vegetarian these days tho it can be quite hard in "smaller" areas (as I have learnt A LOT).
MsQwerty
03-09-2008, 05:22 PM
Lysondra, I think there was a Kosher restaurant or cafe in Coolangatta, Im not sure if its still there or not but if youre down this way it was on the main street.
Katrine
03-09-2008, 07:50 PM
I just wanted to quote this for truth.
a jewish woman is not supposed to touch her husban if she has not been to mikvah. So, after her period is over, she must have 12 completely blood free days
before she goes to the mikva (ritual bathing) and then they can have sex. This is hell for people who have short cycle, mid cycle bleeding, or early ovulation (for those wanting to get pregnant).
I want so badly to keep mikva, but I would not be able to get pregnant then, most likely, b/c I generally ovulate before 12 blood free days.
I know about the mikvah, my friend was dating a guy who told her he would only marry her if she did this. Personally, I think its a really outdated tradition. What is the value in following mikvah in the modern era?
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 08:11 PM
The thing is that Judaism revloves solely (mostly) around G-d, belief in G-d and Love and Respect for G-d.
I convered cause I didn't believe the Jesus stuff, but I certainly believed and loved G-d. Judaism, as I learned more and more about it, was a perfect fit for me and my beliefs in G-d and family and community and life in general.
It's not one of those religions you can just try out, IMO. Either you have the passion or you don't.
Thanks but I'm converting to Progressive Jew, not Orthodox. So even though you don't see me as a 'real' Jew, I can still pray the way that makes me happy. And that's all I want.
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 08:12 PM
Lysondra, I think there was a Kosher restaurant or cafe in Coolangatta, Im not sure if its still there or not but if youre down this way it was on the main street.
Thanks! Anything anywhere is helpful!
Yekhefah
03-09-2008, 09:06 PM
I know about the mikvah, my friend was dating a guy who told her he would only marry her if she did this. Personally, I think its a really outdated tradition. What is the value in following mikvah in the modern era?
I found a lot of beauty in it. It made sex special, and the separation made it very hot when we were together. It emphasized my appreciation for my body and my femininity, and made my then-husband find creative non-physical ways of displaying his love and affection. It makes the entire home more spiritually centered. It's definitely not for everyone and I don't want to go back to doing it every month, but it's a beautiful thing for those who do it and I certainly see the appeal.
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 11:15 PM
Why is there no sad-hyper icon?
I found a Synagogue within walking distance!! I drove up.. spent an hour calling people asking if it was against Jewish traditions to enter on a random weekday, built up courage, walked to the door, knocked...
..and ran away. D:
Yekhefah
03-09-2008, 11:26 PM
:laughing: It would've been open on a weekday if it were a decent-sized synagogue. What would you do there though? You'd need an appointment to talk to the rabbi for any length of time and there's really not a whole lot you could do, maybe browse the library. Just go to the service next weekend and mingle afterward (there will be coffee and cookies). Judaism isn't going anywhere, take your time!
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 11:28 PM
:laughing: It would've been open on a weekday if it were a decent-sized synagogue. What would you do there though? You'd need an appointment to talk to the rabbi for any length of time and there's really not a whole lot you could do, maybe browse the library. Just go to the service next weekend and mingle afterward (there will be coffee and cookies). Judaism isn't going anywhere, take your time!
Well I called and the phone was disconnected. I could've made an appointment then and read some books.
And what's the building behind the Synagogue with a glass roof? Is that normal?
Yekhefah
03-09-2008, 11:30 PM
Glass roof? Dunno, could've been anything. Maybe it's a greenhouse or just a building with a skylight, or maybe they enclose the sukkah when it isn't Sukkot, dunno.
I think it's a bit early to make any appointments. Get a feel for the community first.
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 11:32 PM
Now that you're here.. is there any nono about going into Synagogue on a non-holiday-thingy.. like no service or anything? Just walk in and kinda get a feel for the place.
And lol, what if it's a coverup drug Synagogue?
Yekhefah
03-09-2008, 11:37 PM
LMAO!! That would be awesome, actually.
There aren't any no-nos. If it's a bigger synagogue they'll have a weekday minyan (sort of a miniature service, but these tend to be mostly attended by elderly men) and people will be in and out of the Hebrew school, library, etc. You might get some people wondering what you're doing there but that's just because they don't know you. There should at least be someone in the office, like a secretary, plus the rabbi if s/he isn't busy somewhere else, and maybe the cantor if there is one. They all keep office hours.
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 11:44 PM
Well I can't find this one's hours ANYWHERE! D: But funny enough in re: drugs... someone just now told me to go that Synagogue because 'they're more relaxed and groovy'. It's a pot smuggling Jewish Ring!!
I know two Jewish people walked by while I was hemming and hawing at the gate (they were one curl away from Hasidic).... an old man who smiled at me and looked REALLY happy I was interested in the Synagogue... and a young boy holding a bunch of Hebrew books looking at me like I was an idiot. Hahahaha.
Yekhefah
03-09-2008, 11:45 PM
You look like a stunningly beautiful Jewish girl and you were hanging out at the shul on a weekday. OF COURSE they were looking at you!
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 11:47 PM
I'm so glad I look Jewish and don't have to worry about that! The young one seemed super confused though, like...wtf are you doing there on a Monday? FREAK!
The old man seemed super happy I was there on a Monday.
OH! Now I get it. Silly older Orthodox men bein' all proud of the good Jewish girl trying to pray on a Monday.
I bet he hooks me up with his son on Saturday.
Yekhefah
03-09-2008, 11:52 PM
Dude, you have no idea what an advantage dark hair is. I didn't get that much discrimination once I explained that I'd converted to Judaism, but every time I walk into any Jewish community (except Chabad, actually) I get the once-over and everyone's obviously wondering what the shiksa's doing here by herself. My ex had dark hair - fair skin and blue eyes, but no freckles and dark hair - and when he told one old bitchy lady he was in an intermarriage, she looked at me and said, "Oh, this must be the shiksa." Despite the fact that I'd been going there for months and it was his first time! :banghead:
I know plenty of fair-haired Jews and everyone bleaches nowadays anyway so I don't know why it's an issue, but it is. With dark hair I bet you aren't questioned at all. Wear your glasses and you REALLY won't be.
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 11:54 PM
Ahahahaha I was wearing my glasses, too!!! XD
Awesome. Silly Jews, tricks are for Rabbis.
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 11:55 PM
And also, I'm not really liking the word shiksa... it's depressing. :(
Yekhefah
03-09-2008, 11:56 PM
^^^ :laughing:
Did I ever tell you about the time I had to be a female Rabbi for a Domme session? This guy didn't even know I was Jewish but I dressed up in a knee-length black dress with an updo and glasses and mezuzah necklace, and lectured him on his observance and then pretended to "circumcise" him as a punishment so he'd be better about his religious observance. Dominatrix Rabbi, that's me.
And yes, shiksa is a very bad word, though it's like the n-word; some use it proudly because they can.
Lysondra
03-09-2008, 11:58 PM
^^^ :laughing:
Did I ever tell you about the time I had to be a female Rabbi for a Domme session? This guy didn't even know I was Jewish but I dressed up in a knee-length black dress with an updo and glasses and mezuzah necklace, and lectured him on his observance and then pretended to "circumcise" him as a punishment so he'd be better about his religious observance. Dominatrix Rabbi, that's me.
And yes, shiksa is a very bad word, though it's like the n-word; some use it proudly because they can.
Oh. my. god. I'm trying to think of how many levels of wrong, how many levels of wtf, how many levels of cool and how many levels of funny that is.
Yekhefah
03-10-2008, 12:00 AM
It was way past awesome. Afterward the guy told me how great I was and I told him I'd actually applied to rabbinical school years ago. True, too. I applied to Hebrew Union College in 2001 but I decided to be a filmmaker instead. Poor guy just lucked out, he was looking for a Domme and probably found the only one in L.A. who could give him the Rabbi treatment he was looking for!
What's REALLY funny is that I was a Nazi Domme several times too. I had a few Jewish clients who got off on a Nazi Domme calling them Jewish pigs and Jewboys and such, and since I'm blond and blue-eyed I pulled it off. Never told those guys I was Jewish, heh.
Lysondra
03-10-2008, 12:06 AM
Speaking on a similar note, my friends and I joked last night that the entire Brisbane Jewish religion was three people, all hiding German soldiers with wigs.. because it would be the best disguise ever.
I think that's super funny. I might even like the German treatment in that twisted sick hot way. And the Rabbi treatment.... :D
It's so cool you're such an awesome open Jew. It makes me know I can still be a stripper and Jewish.
Lysondra
03-10-2008, 12:09 AM
Randomly I'd like to point out I'm reading an article called "Jews and Shoes"
hockeybobby
03-10-2008, 05:37 AM
Randomly I'd like to point out I'm reading an article called "Jews and Shoes"
Hahahahaha You're the best Lys :D
Lysondra
03-10-2008, 05:49 AM
:hyper:
kitana
03-10-2008, 07:40 AM
OH MY FUCKING GOD!!! Lys, Abromovich jokes are anti-semitic russian humor. Its very popular, and meant as hate speech. Something gets lost in translation, but I am super fucking pissed that this is going around.
It is NOT humor. Ask any russian on this board about this joke, its NOT funny. Now, my father, as a Uke jew, can say it, but any non-jew that said it would get a punch in the face by anyone in my family. >:(
Yup!!!!
kitana
03-10-2008, 07:47 AM
I think you're right Cam, I'll do that. It seems the best and most accurate answer.
"Why do you want to be Jewish?"
"Because it feels right."
And it does. It just feels right. I can't explain it. And maybe Yek's a bit right on me fitting in - I have black hair and a very Jewish nose, they probably won't even know!
The Rabbi e-mailed me back with a place to get challah anyday and a time to meet him after service!
Lys, I am glad that you are excited about Judaism and maybe converting, but I can't help but think you are not there for the right reasons.
G-d is a VERY intrigal part of my life as well as ALL Jewish peoples lives. How can you want to be a part of Judaism if you don't believe in G-d?
Lysondra
03-10-2008, 07:51 AM
Lys, I am glad that you are excited about Judaism and maybe converting, but I can't help but think you are not there for the right reasons.
G-d is a VERY intrigal part of my life as well as ALL Jewish peoples lives. How can you want to be a part of Judaism if you don't believe in G-d?
That... is what the entire last 14 pages covered?
hockeybobby
03-10-2008, 07:56 AM
That... is what the entire last 14 pages covered?
:hyper: ;D .....
Lysondra
03-10-2008, 07:57 AM
Hahahahahahahaha....
:hyper:
kitana
03-10-2008, 08:00 AM
I'm not saying keeping kosher is hard... I'm just saying I really didn't think I'd have to tell people straight up before a first date to remember I'm kosher so please take that into consideration before booking us a resturant, is all.
Keeping kosher is VERY hard.
Especially when half if it doesn't make any sense, lol.
Like no meat of the child mixed with the milk of the mother. Ok that that cuts out cheeseburgers.
But chickens and fish don't breastfeed or produce milk and you still can't mix them with cheese, lol.
Two sets of dishes, pot, pans, pretty much two full kitchens and NEVER NEVER NEVER get them mixed up!!!
kitana
03-10-2008, 08:06 AM
That... is what the entire last 14 pages covered?
I'm just saying.
I think your mind wants it, but your heart is not in the right place.
Lysondra
03-10-2008, 08:06 AM
Keeping kosher is VERY hard.
Especially when half if it doesn't make any sense, lol.
Like no meat of the child mixed with the milk of the mother. Ok that that cuts out cheeseburgers.
But chickens and fish don't breastfeed or produce milk and you still can't mix them with cheese, lol.
Two sets of dishes, pot, pans, pretty much two full kitchens and NEVER NEVER NEVER get them mixed up!!!
And no pepperoni pizzas...and only certain fish with a certain kind of scale...omg it just keeps going!
RebeccaSolidarity
03-10-2008, 09:12 AM
assimilating into a different culture is always a tough one; and really with judaism it is not just a conversion into a new religion but an assimilation into culture as well. adopting a respectful and educated understanding of tradition without slipping into misappropriation is difficult somtimes. i trust that (as an example) you are not only keeping kosher but also educating yourself on why kosher laws were first established and why they remain relevant to jewish people even now.
anywise! best of luck to you!
ColetteCalahan
03-10-2008, 03:03 PM
I am going to agree with katrine and disagree with Yek.
I consider myself an atheist. I do not call myself an "atheist jew." I'm technically Jewish, Bat mitzvah and all that jazz. but Judaism is, first and foremost, a RELIGION, not a cool little club with a fun culture and cute jokes and gutteral sounds and close historical ties, etc. Judaism is a RELIGION based on god. Judaism is not an ethnic/national background... unless you're using the Nazi definition of what 'makes a Jew.' I believe in a more constructivist point: when you give up god, you give up your right to the claim of being a Jew.
I think from reading this thread that you sound way too enthused with the idea of judaism- the people, food, culture, history, closeness, etc... everyone wants to belong to something that seems attractive... i dunno. You do what you feel is right.
Katrine
03-10-2008, 04:34 PM
I found a lot of beauty in it. It made sex special, and the separation made it very hot when we were together. It emphasized my appreciation for my body and my femininity, and made my then-husband find creative non-physical ways of displaying his love and affection. It makes the entire home more spiritually centered. It's definitely not for everyone and I don't want to go back to doing it every month, but it's a beautiful thing for those who do it and I certainly see the appeal.
Wow, that's an interesting outlook on a ritual based on the belief that the woman's body is a dirty, filthy thing. Yes, that's harsh, but its a ritual based on historical gender oppression and control of females. Much of jewish tradition is rooted in an era that is no longer relevant. Of course, mikvah can symbolize many things in regards to "ritual cleansing", but the sex part is really misogynistic. And yes, I know that women are usually the biggest proponents of it. Its like a long-term stockholm syndrome, idenfication with the oppressor.
This is JUST my opinion, since we are sharing so much in this thread. If its a positive experience for you, then by all means, it doesn't hurt anyone.
Yekhefah
03-10-2008, 04:34 PM
I did not mean to convey the impression that I think Judaism is a "cool little club" and not a religion. I certainly hope that isn't what you think I believe.
I agree it's far too soon for Lysondra to actually convert, but it isn't too soon to explore. That's all.
kitana
03-10-2008, 04:35 PM
I am going to agree with katrine and disagree with Yek.
I consider myself an atheist. I do not call myself an "atheist jew." I'm technically Jewish, Bat mitzvah and all that jazz. but Judaism is, first and foremost, a RELIGION, not a cool little club with a fun culture and cute jokes and gutteral sounds and close historical ties, etc. Judaism is a RELIGION based on god. Judaism is not an ethnic/national background... unless you're using the Nazi definition of what 'makes a Jew.' I believe in a more constructivist point: when you give up god, you give up your right to the claim of being a Jew.
I think from reading this thread that you sound way too enthused with the idea of judaism- the people, food, culture, history, closeness, etc... everyone wants to belong to something that seems attractive... i dunno. You do what you feel is right.
I have to agree 100% with you, and that was what I was trying to say all along, lol!
Yekhefah
03-10-2008, 04:37 PM
Katrine, I can totally see why you would feel that way about it. I know a lot of women do, and I felt that way myself after the two times I went to indoor Orthodox mikvaot. But I already had the outdoor mikvah experience so I knew it could be better, and when I didn't have those hostile bitchy women treating it like a dirty chore, it was amazing.
Yekhefah
03-10-2008, 04:38 PM
BTW, the Kinsey Report found that Orthodox Jews reported the highest levels of sexual fulfillment and also continued having regular sex far later in life than everyone else. I think the mikvah rituals have a lot to do with this.