View Full Version : Converting Religions - Is there a RIGHT reason?
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Katrine
03-10-2008, 04:41 PM
But I already had the outdoor mikvah experience so I knew it could be better
I really do like the concept of outdoor mikvaeot quite a bit, just not for sexual purposes. I do enjoy the idea of connecting with nature in order to symbolize change and progress. But we also know, with modern technology, that the woman's body does not need any "ritual cleansing" and that we can have sex whenever we want it.
The mikvah was there to ensure that the wife/property got pregnant with the seed of her husband/owner.
ColetteCalahan
03-10-2008, 04:44 PM
I did not mean to convey the impression that I think Judaism is a "cool little club" and not a religion. I certainly hope that isn't what you think I believe.
no, no no not at all. when i speak in super-simplistic generalities, they are usually meant to implicate society at large, not one person in particular and CERtainly not one who actually has a lot of meaning, understanding, and experience in the topic at hand.
I dunno about the whole mikvot thing... I am agreeing again with Katrine here. I think that women/couples have EVOLVed ways of thinking about it that reconcile the patriarchic and misogynistic practice with what they'd LIKE it to mean for themselves... but it doesn't change the fact that it's the same crap as Eskimo tribes banishing girls to the wilderness while they were "unclean."
Lola Rose
03-10-2008, 04:45 PM
I really do like the concept of outdoor mikvaeot quite a bit, just not for sexual purposes. I do enjoy the idea of connecting with nature in order to symbolize change and progress. But we also know, with modern technology, that the woman's body does not need any "ritual cleansing" and that we can have sex whenever we want it.
The mikvah was there to ensure that the wife/property got pregnant with the seed of her husband/owner.
well, for orthodox jews, marrige=children. Everyone knows and understands that, and the hope for the blessing of a child is so strong in the community, so I see nothing wrong with that.
Lola Rose
03-10-2008, 04:46 PM
I really wish anyone bashing mikvot would go do a lot of research. It has nothing to do with uncleanliness!!!!!!
I think I need the bashing head icon too ::)
ColetteCalahan
03-10-2008, 04:47 PM
^there's nothing wrong with that if you leave out the property/seed part.
ummm, lola, no need to be insulting with the head-banging. please. I'm well-aware that Mikvah means "ritual purity" but I simply say "unclean" because I refuse to use such a peverse euphemism as "purity" when the rituals are a gift to men and an imposition for women.
Yekhefah
03-10-2008, 04:49 PM
It is designed to promote pregnancy, but like Lola said, it's a community that welcomes pregnancy and children. At the same time, it's a community that has no problem whatsoever with birth control pills or most other contraception if the timing isn't right for children. I think that the niddah laws are neither bad nor good; like most things in life, they are what you make of them. I think the fact that I CHOSE to keep them out of my own free will, because I personally found meaning in them, made it a much more positive experience for me. This is why I'm a liberal/progressive Jew - not because I don't believe in Jewish law, but because I believe that the laws should be freely embraced where they fit.
Lola Rose
03-10-2008, 04:49 PM
^there's nothing wrong with that if you leave out the property/seed part.
and I did. Those are her own personal biases, not fact :headbange
Katrine
03-10-2008, 04:59 PM
and I did. Those are her own personal biases, not fact :headbange
Again, this is just my opinion, based only on speaking to Orthodox Jews from North Africa/Israel about the tradition. They do not deny the sexist history of it.
We all now know that ovulation can occur at ANY time, not just for two arbitrary weeks after the period. This tradition has been completely outtdated. Its unecessary, and can actually harm a couple's chances of getting pregnant if the woman ovulates during the "unclean" time. Hence, Lola is not participating in it at the moment.
The fact that Orthodox jews value the importance of marriage and children has little to do with a historical tradition meant to prevent men from having to father someone else's children.
ColetteCalahan
03-10-2008, 05:06 PM
and I did. Those are her own personal biases, not fact :headbange
oh man, that's so not what i meant. & stop the insulting emoticons.
Yek, I appreciate your experience and of course it's based on free will... but the ORIgin of the laws remain the same.
Lola Rose
03-10-2008, 05:07 PM
It is designed to promote pregnancy, but like Lola said, it's a community that welcomes pregnancy and children. At the same time, it's a community that has no problem whatsoever with birth control pills or most other contraception if the timing isn't right for children. I think that the niddah laws are neither bad nor good; like most things in life, they are what you make of them. I think the fact that I CHOSE to keep them out of my own free will, because I personally found meaning in them, made it a much more positive experience for me. This is why I'm a liberal/progressive Jew - not because I don't believe in Jewish law, but because I believe that the laws should be freely embraced where they fit.
not really. You need permission from a rabbi to avoid conception and be on BC.
"Although there is a Biblical commandment to have children, and although Jewish law strongly encourages families larger than the minimum size, contraception is permitted under certain circumstances. A woman whose life would be endangered by pregnancy or childbirth is required to use birth control, in accordance with the principle that all commandments (except for the prohibitions against adultery/incest, idolatry, and murder) are suspended where life is in danger. Other situations, including the woman's physical or emotional condition and the family's ability to cope, may also be grounds for allowing contraception. Some authorities permit spacing of births. Each couple should discuss their individual circumstances with a rabbinic authority."
As with any method of contraception, a rabbinic opinion should be sought to determine whether delaying conception is permissible for the couple in their current life circumstances. If they are permitted to delay conception, this method does not interfere with the natural course of relations, nor does it lead to hotza'at zera lebatalah (wasting seed).
According to halacha, ejaculation of semen should take place only in the context of vaginal intercourse (or anal intercourse, according to some opinions). Ejaculation at other times raises concerns about hotza'at zera levatalah, generally translated as wasting of seed, or hashchatat zera, the destruction of seed. There is much rabbinic debate about the scope of this prohibition but it clearly subsumes a number of issues:
1) The withdrawal method of birth control is prohibited. This is derived from the biblical story of Er and Onan (Genesis 38) where God's displeasure with this practice is expressed.
2) Male masturbation is prohibited. This means that masturbation is not the method of choice when procuring a semen sample. Similarly, this practice cannot be recommended for the solution of medical problems without careful rabbinic consultation.
3) Barrier methods of contraception that do not allow the flow of semen into the vagina are prohibited. This is the problem with the use of condoms, which are almost never allowed. Some authorities feel that diaphragms and sponges also present this problem.
4) Producing a semen sample for diagnosis and/or treatment of infertility is not a simple procedure to permit within halacha. While there is room for leniency for the purpose of allowing the couple to have children, most rabbis will want some workup done first on the wife before allowing the husband to submit such a sample.
the site this is from is:
The term "jewess" is damn sexy.
I joined Hillel in college. They recruited me, oddly enough.
Dear Colette here has missed the boat on the redefinition of Judaism. It wouldn't surprise me if most jews were agnostic. Rabbis have even come out in mainstream press admitting the bible is mostly fiction. These days, it seems to mostly be about the club, not the religion.
I'm surprised the non-anthropomorphic idea of God hasn't come up in this thread yet to those who have converted.
As for myself, I was baptized a methodist, went to Catholic grade and junior high school, but lost my religion around age 12. I love the study of theology but I don't believe in anything supernatural or even most of the moral recommendations in the Abhramic religions.
I'm quite proud of the Methodists, I must say. John wesley in my view has been mankind's greatest hero.
In boot camp, I became a Buddhist because they had the longest service(most time away from DIs).
ColetteCalahan
03-10-2008, 05:59 PM
"dear colette" has not missed the boat on anything, sh0t. I know many jews are agnostic and many rabbis take the torah with a grain of salt.
agnostic/atheist.. not the same thing. Plus... Lysondra states that she wants to be progressive... and then says something about keeping kosher? i don't understand this.
umm, lola- you're saying you only have sex with your fiance for reproductive reasons? ...
Lysondra
03-10-2008, 06:03 PM
^ You can be Progressive and keep kosher. I want to keep kosher because I see where the belief stems from. The reason I like Judaism as a religion is because it's traditions make sense (to me anyway). I can't follow all rules simply with how my life is lead - but I respect the decisions. Everything that is done has an explanation, a reason. And I like that, I appreciate it.
Also, digging deeper into myself, I am starting to think I'm agnostic - you can even tell by the way I wrote a few things.
ColetteCalahan
03-10-2008, 06:15 PM
hell, you can be catholic and keep kosher.
i dunno... i respect your choice- just as long as you research the shit out of it and don't do anything til you're really ready. if i said anything else i'd be speaking from my own bias. i grew up going to synagogue, immersed in the culture, etc., and i think religion is a crock and most of the rituals are outdated and stem from an unequal, classist, gendered society/rhetoric. but whatever.
Lysondra
03-10-2008, 06:19 PM
I agree a lot of the traditions are outdated - but I can see where they came from. That's the whole thing. I know it sounds weird but I hateloath when people say DO this..why?...uh, cause god said so. No other reason. None. Whereas Judaism it's like... why do we do this? uh.. well, one, cause G-d said so and two, because we should be kind to all people and animals and make sure that nobody suffers as best we can to be kind Jews. Like... there's always a freaking REASON. I like that.
And considering it takes years to convert, I really don't think I'm just gonna pop into Shabbat one day and be a Jew... so obviously I'm going to be looking into this more as time continues.
nicole84
03-10-2008, 06:23 PM
Ok, just to pop back in here for a second....
It seems like too many people are trying to tell her why she shouldnt convert...either because you dont think she knows whats shes doing, isnt serious enough, doesnt believe in god, or because you simply dont like the customs/traditions.
why don't you just support her choice. It makes her happy, leave it at that? shes made it clear she is serious about it.
As for folks who just don't like the customs, well, just cause you dont like them or they didnt work for you, doesn't mean they don't/wont work for her.
Lysondra
03-10-2008, 06:28 PM
It's okay. I respect people's decisions to be against what I'm doing. I expected that. Orthodox raised or Hasidic Jews will never find me to be real if I'm atheist/agnostic.
The bickering that is here is what is preparing me for how the Jewish religion itself will treat me.
And if I'm not willing to take it with a grain of salt, what am I doing converting?
Not to say I don't seriously think it's sweet or don't appreciate you sticking up for me. :heart:
Katrine
03-10-2008, 06:31 PM
Oh, I hope you don't think I am discouraging you. I'm just jibber jabbering about my experiences. I dislike any and all religion.
nicole84
03-10-2008, 06:33 PM
I know you'll be up against folks who wont take you as "real" as unfortunate as that is. I just hate that kind of stuff, so, I guess I sort of over react:blush:
I'm totally amazed at how well you're taking it btw...I would have blown up by now, lol ;D
Lysondra
03-10-2008, 06:54 PM
Oh, I hope you don't think I am discouraging you. I'm just jibber jabbering about my experiences. I dislike any and all religion.
If your opinion stops me from converting than I really AM doing it for all the wrong reasons. :) You mean well. I know it.
Lunarobverse
03-10-2008, 07:32 PM
This is all too strange. Let me see if I get this straight...?
Lysondra asked for opinions and suchlike, about a touchy subject, very nearly an almost taboo subject... and people are giving them to her, and everyone seems to have really strong feelings on the matter...
...and yet, Lysondra is accepting what they all say, even when they disagree with her. And the conversation hasn't devolved into name-calling and mentions of a strange German goverment of the early 20th century that shall not be named, even with plenty of provocation.
Have I stumbled into some kind of rational Bizarro world?
Y'all rock. Just sayin'. I can't imagine anywhere else on the internet where a discussion like this could happen in this way.
I love StripperWeb.
Yekhefah
03-10-2008, 07:44 PM
I was thinking earlier that this would be a great thread to interest the llama! But she hasn't put her furry nose in here at all. Could it be that she's finally wandered off to wherever it is llamas go?
AlexxaHex
03-10-2008, 07:50 PM
I know! I'm really impressed with everyone here as well. I've been having fun reading this for quite a while, and I'm learning a lot too.
*yawn* Now I don't have time to read any other threads.
Lysondra
03-10-2008, 07:57 PM
This is all too strange. Let me see if I get this straight...?
Lysondra asked for opinions and suchlike, about a touchy subject, very nearly an almost taboo subject... and people are giving them to her, and everyone seems to have really strong feelings on the matter...
...and yet, Lysondra is accepting what they all say, even when they disagree with her. And the conversation hasn't devolved into name-calling and mentions of a strange German goverment of the early 20th century that shall not be named, even with plenty of provocation.
Have I stumbled into some kind of rational Bizarro world?
Y'all rock. Just sayin'. I can't imagine anywhere else on the internet where a discussion like this could happen in this way.
I love StripperWeb.
What can I say? I'm just not in the mood for drama. And I asked questions.. why should I be mad if I got some angry answers? This isn't a 'tell Lysondra what she wants to hear or she'll cry' thread. This is a religion thread about Judaism asking for advice.
We're all grown up. We should be able to appreciate different opinions.
Katrine
03-10-2008, 09:50 PM
If your opinion stops me from converting than I really AM doing it for all the wrong reasons. :) You mean well. I know it.
Thank you honey. I really, really, really, really wanted to be jewish for many years. I completely and totally know where you are coming from. I don't know if I've made my stance clear, but I was almost exactly in your shoes at one point. And I was hurt by it, by the lack of acceptance.
I almost think it worse to be an ethnic half-breed trying to adapt. Its as if the community resented me because my dad married a shiksa. My father's family hasn't been religious in 200-300 years. Now THAT is how deep the roots go. My father may be somewhat of a douche, but my mother is a saint. I protect her against anyone who wants to speak ill against her. Hence, I am colored in my views. However, I did study, and practice, with all of the jewish sects, for many years. I hope to be a resource to you Lysondra. Just understand, above all, that I am unwilling to believe in any sort of god concept.
You and I are very similar here, I hope you know. I want to support you, mother you, and educate you, in this matter.
Big hugs and kisses, Kat
hardkandee
03-10-2008, 10:04 PM
Llamas aren't kosher.
Yekhefah
03-10-2008, 10:06 PM
Oh, right! That's why there haven't been any in this thread!
From now on, the Jews are responsible for keeping the llamas away.
ColetteCalahan
03-10-2008, 10:10 PM
I know you'll be up against folks who wont take you as "real" as unfortunate as that is. I just hate that kind of stuff, so, I guess I sort of over react:blush:
I'm totally amazed at how well you're taking it btw...I would have blown up by now, lol ;D
i definitely stated that I supported her choice, whatever it was... I simply said to keep researching it. However- this point about being a "real" Jew IS one this I hope (if you do this) you don't have to deal with...
For someone to convert to Judaism takes a LOT of work, study, effort, time, etc... it's a major decision that, no matter what someone's personal opinion is, should be commended if nothing else as a major show of ethic, commitment, etc... However, someone can know NOTHING about their religion and still claim being more "real" simply due to who their mother was. Don't listen to this bs- if you go through the process of conversion, you have as much (if not more) legitimacy to claiming Jewish as anyone else.
Are llamas not kosher?? What's the cloven-hoofed rule again?? and, err.. do llamas have cloven feet? hmm... i do not know this.
ColetteCalahan
03-10-2008, 10:16 PM
^ ahh.. thank you star-k online....
How do we know which animals and birds are kosher? Regarding animals, the Torah provides two physical indicia. Any animal that has split hooves and chews its cud is kosher. All others are not. Thus, sheep, goat, cow, deer, buffalo, gazelle, and giraffe are kosher; pig, camel and llama are not.
MrChristopher
03-10-2008, 10:37 PM
Llamas don't chew their cud? Hmm, I coulda sworn they did, in the few encounters I've had with them.
I hope I didn't come off as horribly abrasive. I often do. I went back and re-read the post, it seemed a bit abrupt. So, apologies if they're required.
ColetteCalahan
03-10-2008, 11:26 PM
^ that's the definition according to star-k kosher certification. i'm not gonna argue. (second paragraph)
MrChristopher
03-10-2008, 11:44 PM
I found this on a llama fact sheet. I was right about the cud. There are differences, though.
---Many people think llamas are ruminants because they chew a cud. They are actually not, since they are classified as tylopoda, as are camels. Llamas do chew a cud, like cattle or sheep. But unlike cattle, llamas have only one stomach, which is divided into three parts. Llamas chew in a figure-eight motion and can spend hours at a time, just sitting and chewing their cud. Llamas have front teeth only on the bottom jaw and a toothless upper jaw, like a gum. This helps them rip the grass off at ground level, leaving the roots for future growth.----
I'm honestly not sure what that has to do with Kosher, but it was bothering me.\
Man I am a threadjackin' fool tonight.
RebeccaSolidarity
03-11-2008, 12:32 AM
...the redefinition of Judaism. It wouldn't surprise me if most jews were agnostic...
Redefinition?
Even in Biblical times there were secular Jews.
Cause they were part of the tribes regardless.
That having been said, it is mostly unimportant to where this conversation has gone and I just want to voice my support again. I am impressed by the grace displayed here by Lysondra and others. Super impressed.
Lysondra
03-11-2008, 12:57 AM
I went to a Jewish deli today and asked for the kosher meat. When I picked that out, they took me to the Kosher wine section and gave me some matzo... without question!!
I definitely at least look Jewish.
Lysondra
03-11-2008, 12:57 AM
Oh... and... :hyper:
flickad
03-11-2008, 01:47 AM
I am going to agree with katrine and disagree with Yek.
I consider myself an atheist. I do not call myself an "atheist jew." I'm technically Jewish, Bat mitzvah and all that jazz. but Judaism is, first and foremost, a RELIGION, not a cool little club with a fun culture and cute jokes and gutteral sounds and close historical ties, etc. Judaism is a RELIGION based on god. Judaism is not an ethnic/national background... unless you're using the Nazi definition of what 'makes a Jew.' I believe in a more constructivist point: when you give up god, you give up your right to the claim of being a Jew.
I think from reading this thread that you sound way too enthused with the idea of judaism- the people, food, culture, history, closeness, etc... everyone wants to belong to something that seems attractive... i dunno. You do what you feel is right.
Yep, got to agree there. You can't be truly part of a religion when you don't accept its central tenets, though I think you can be an atheist Jew at the technical level.
Judaism absolutely is a religion before it is anything else. Sure, culture and language has developed around the religion, but that's all gravy. It is the religion itself that is the main meal.
flickad
03-11-2008, 01:57 AM
Wow, that's an interesting outlook on a ritual based on the belief that the woman's body is a dirty, filthy thing. Yes, that's harsh, but its a ritual based on historical gender oppression and control of females. Much of jewish tradition is rooted in an era that is no longer relevant. Of course, mikvah can symbolize many things in regards to "ritual cleansing", but the sex part is really misogynistic. And yes, I know that women are usually the biggest proponents of it. Its like a long-term stockholm syndrome, idenfication with the oppressor.
This is JUST my opinion, since we are sharing so much in this thread. If its a positive experience for you, then by all means, it doesn't hurt anyone.
Unsurprisingly, I agree with you on this one too. To me, the niddah laws have always carried the implication that women's bodies are unclean. In fact, I've always found vast sections of Jewish theology sexist and misogynist as hell. I remember being told by a rebbetzin in high school that 'men and women are equal but have different roles'. This was in the 1990s, by the way.
flickad
03-11-2008, 02:14 AM
hell, you can be catholic and keep kosher.
i dunno... i respect your choice- just as long as you research the shit out of it and don't do anything til you're really ready. if i said anything else i'd be speaking from my own bias. i grew up going to synagogue, immersed in the culture, etc., and i think religion is a crock and most of the rituals are outdated and stem from an unequal, classist, gendered society/rhetoric. but whatever.
Fuck, a kindred spirit.
xdamage
03-11-2008, 06:31 AM
Lysondra, here is my personal experience. Not to sway you, just another point of view....
My father still thinks of himself as Jewish, yet he has become an Atheist. He comes from a long line of Jews that escaped Germany, although his father was killed by the Germans.
When he was younger he was an agnostic and avoided the religion. Somewhere along the way he became interested in it again, then very involved, then after reading hundreds of books covering topics like physics, evolution, psychology, turned atheist again seeing that there was just no way to merge the religious teachings with everything else he knew (that humans have since learned).
Me, I don't think of myself as Jewish anymore then I think of myself as "Baptist" just because my mom comes from a long line of Baptists. I have some DNA from both sides, but so what? If that DNA actually did give me any special privilege with a god then how screwed up would that be? It's a pure crap shoot what DNA we have. I sure didn't pick it, and I sure don't want it held against me or giving me a racial advantage either that is about as meaningful as rolling a pair of dice.
My family on my Dad's side came across as quite close minded about many things. They seemed to spend more time looking for things to be unhappy about, and living in the past then in the present. I feel no attraction at all to the lifestyle or the way the interact with each other. It just feels like a big show to me .... rituals and group think, lifeless and cold once I look past the surface.
Lysondra
03-11-2008, 06:57 AM
I like your story, thank you so much for telling it. I have just found a few communities of Jews by Birth who consider themselves Jewish but are atheist or agnostic. It doesn't seem uncommon, except for in my case I am a convert. It just seems more odd that a conversion would be agnostic where a Jew by Birth would be still Jewish.
Anyway, yes... thank you.
Lysondra
03-11-2008, 06:58 AM
Also, is it wrong to have the wiki page open to Pesach during the ceremony? Do I print out the prayers and list of 15 things to do... or do I remember it?
D:
xdamage
03-11-2008, 07:18 AM
I guess I should have mentioned, my dad has had to be fairly close mouthed though about his Agnostic POV, and even more so about his current Atheist POV. Most of his family doesn't understand it. As others have said, it is not unheard of but there is a fundamental disconnect between the notion of a people tied together by a common God, and Atheism. When you take the God out of the equation, a lot of the rituals and teachings just make no sense since they were based on that premise.
Lunarobverse
03-11-2008, 08:24 AM
What can I say? I'm just not in the mood for drama. And I asked questions.. why should I be mad if I got some angry answers? This isn't a 'tell Lysondra what she wants to hear or she'll cry' thread. This is a religion thread about Judaism asking for advice.
We're all grown up. We should be able to appreciate different opinions.
Welcome to the internet. I hope as you gain more experience you still maintain your openness and honesty. ;D I find it really refreshing.
Lola Rose
03-11-2008, 09:18 AM
umm, lola- you're saying you only have sex with your fiance for reproductive reasons? ...
I didn't say anything about me in that post, just that BC is not easily accepted, that you need to consult a rabbi to be halachicly correct (verify jewish laws say it is ok), that condoms and withdraw method are forbidden, and that the purpose (in jewish law) is primarily to have babies.
But men are also supposed to put the woman's pleasure above their own, and it is more important for them to climax first. There are also all sorts of kabalastic reasons for this as well. But it's such a vast topic. I was just trying to give an overview.
I very much enjoy sex with my fiance. If I knew we were both infirtile, G-d forbid, I'd still want to be intimate with him.
But right now, we're purposly trying to have a baby, so that is definatly a major reason that we do it.
Lola Rose
03-11-2008, 09:30 AM
Unsurprisingly, I agree with you on this one too. To me, the niddah laws have always carried the implication that women's bodies are unclean. In fact, I've always found vast sections of Jewish theology sexist and misogynist as hell. I remember being told by a rebbetzin in high school that 'men and women are equal but have different roles'. This was in the 1990s, by the way.
I'm sorry, why is this so horrible? Women and men are different emotionally, physically, mentally. How many treads say "men are immature, they mature later, guys are horrible, guys are putty for a hot chick" and so on. Everyone knows men and women are DIFFERENT!!!!!!!!!!
They do things in different ways. For someone who intends to stay childless, I see this as possibly less important. But for the traditional people, the truth in this is magnified. How many men can breastfeed and give birth? Woman (not all, but definatly most) just have a natural way about them, more nurturing, very compassionate, more MATERNAL. For a family with young children, where the mother breastfeeds, or stays home to care for her children, it is natural that she do the dishes, laundry, and most of the childrearing. But someone has to work, to provide, to have an income. That leaves the man to do that. It is a very natural, logical position. Unfortunatly, many people live above their means, and the woman decides to work, to pay someone else to care for her children, usually in a group setting, and therefore these natural lines are...... sort of foggy.
Lola Rose
03-11-2008, 09:31 AM
Also, is it wrong to have the wiki page open to Pesach during the ceremony? Do I print out the prayers and list of 15 things to do... or do I remember it?
D:
the pasach guide is called a sader. You can order them online, or buy through the shul, or possibly even at the kosher deli.
ColetteCalahan
03-11-2008, 10:21 AM
I'm sorry, why is this so horrible? Women and men are different emotionally, physically, mentally. How many treads say "men are immature, they mature later, guys are horrible, guys are putty for a hot chick" and so on. Everyone knows men and women are DIFFERENT!!!!!!!!!!
They do things in different ways. For someone who intends to stay childless, I see this as possibly less important. But for the traditional people, the truth in this is magnified. How many men can breastfeed and give birth? Woman (not all, but definatly most) just have a natural way about them, more nurturing, very compassionate, more MATERNAL. For a family with young children, where the mother breastfeeds, or stays home to care for her children, it is natural that she do the dishes, laundry, and most of the childrearing. But someone has to work, to provide, to have an income. That leaves the man to do that. It is a very natural, logical position. Unfortunatly, many people live above their means, and the woman decides to work, to pay someone else to care for her children, usually in a group setting, and therefore these natural lines are...... sort of foggy.
i.... wow. Natural?? Show me where, biologically, other than the fact that I can have children and a man cannot, economic inequality and unequal division of labor factors into "natural." There's nothing NATURal about it. Logical only if you WANT to think like that. Women and men are not that inherently different. Sure, different hormones that cause different emotions/responses, but as to aptitude/capability?? Your statement is a 50's throwback and frankly I'm offended.
Lola Rose
03-11-2008, 10:36 AM
i.... wow. Natural?? Show me where, biologically, other than the fact that I can have children and a man cannot, economic inequality and unequal division of labor factors into "natural." There's nothing NATURal about it. Logical only if you WANT to think like that. Women and men are not that inherently different. Sure, different hormones that cause different emotions/responses, but as to aptitude/capability?? Your statement is a 50's throwback and frankly I'm offended.
Me stating my opinion and explaining why is offensive to you? ok, if you wanna be that way, I'm seriously not even going to bother.
Saying my thoughts are outdated or w/ev is the only thing I see as offensive here ::)
AlexxaHex
03-11-2008, 11:05 AM
I agree with you Lola. It makes more sense for women to stay home and raise kids if they are a family-oriented couple. The mother should be the primary caregiver during a child's infant years. It's just...easier and more practical that way. Also it's better for the children. Fathers definitely contribute invaluable things and play an extremely important role in child rearing, but they are more biological suited to contribute financially by default.
This isn't to say that women and men are always destined to be caregivers of children. There are gay men and lesbians who don't procreate. There are straight people who don't want kids- etc etc.
We are all aware of the exceptions. I just want to say that I get what you're saying.
Yekhefah
03-11-2008, 11:08 AM
I agree with Lola. Men and women are built differently, and presumably it's for a reason. We balance each other out. They have greater physical strength, we have better communication skills, they're problem solvers, we're nurturers. Not all men are alike and not all women are alike, but we do have pretty common distinctions. I am NOT a man with a vagina. I'm a woman and I like how that makes me different from a man. And in my opinion, yes, we do fill different social roles and that's a good thing.
Lysondra, whoever is hosting the seder should have a little book called a haggadah for everyone. There are a zillion haggadot out there so just let the host be responsible for providing them so that everyone's on the same one. You just follow along in the haggadah, no Wiki necessary.