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yoda57us
03-18-2008, 09:23 AM
Honestly, I don't understand the brouha over ES. Yes, he has pissed a lot of people off in the past. But come on. Getting caught with an escort? Clinton was doing the staff and he stayed on. ES spent his own money. Its not like the NJ governor that had his lover on the state's payroll. I guess in this situation, I've got too much libertarian in me.

Joe

ES broke the law. As an elected public official I have a problem with that even if I don't live in New York and even if I don't necessarily agree with some of the laws that he broke. It has yet to be determined if he spent only his own money though it does appear to be the case.

Clinton was impeached but not removed from office. He didn't "stay on", he was spared because the majority of congress thought it was a dumb reason to remove a president from office. Good for them.

I see escorts regularly so I'm not going to be a hypocrite here and say these guys had it coming. Actually, I would vote for Bill Clinton tomorrow if he could run for president again. However, the bottom line is that any guy who cheats or sees escorts KNOWS that he might get caught. You weigh the positives and negatives and decide if the risk is worth the rewards...Spitzer and Clinton both had one thing in common. They were both arrogant enough to get careless because they thought it couldn't happen to them. It did.

Jenny
03-18-2008, 09:29 AM
Honestly, I don't understand the brouha over ES. Yes, he has pissed a lot of people off in the past. But come on. Getting caught with an escort? Clinton was doing the staff and he stayed on. ES spent his own money. Its not like the NJ governor that had his lover on the state's payroll. I guess in this situation, I've got too much libertarian in me.

Joe
Really? I mean - I think it is a stupid law, but I think there is something pretty bad to be said about a high ranking elected official who is just decides that the criminal law doesn't apply to him. What sort of system is that? A libertarian might think that anti-prostitution laws are bad by nature, but I don't think you can legitimately posit that it just doesn't matter when the government decides that the law doesn't apply to it.

JoeUnCool
03-18-2008, 10:16 AM
We have many laws on the books today that are ridicuous. The government (federal, state, and local) have bigger issues to deal with. Drugs, murder, natural disasters, and other issues are more important to work on than to worry about what ES did with his own money. I don't think that what ES did with someone behind closed doors is this big of an issue for me.

Now I'm not turning a blind eye to everything. I have a different issue with girls that walk the streets. They should all be put behind bars. I guess I am a walking contradiction..................................

Maybe we should somehow change the laws?

Joe

JoeUnCool
03-18-2008, 10:19 AM
Give this gal credit. She knows how to turn infamy into fortune, and without blowing anyone or taking her clothes off no less.

http://www.showbizspy.com/2008/03/15/ashley-alexandra-dupre-earns-200000-in-music-downloads/

Have you heard her sing? I mean Pat Boone's album of heavy metal covers sounds better. I guess 200,000 people thought 99 cents was worth their curiosity.

When life throws lemons at you, make lemonade.

Life is what happens while you make plans.

yoda57us
03-18-2008, 10:31 AM
Now I'm not turning a blind eye to everything. I have a different issue with girls that walk the streets. They should all be put behind bars. I guess I am a walking contradiction..................................

Maybe we should somehow change the laws?

Joe

OK, I've gotta ask. How do you rationalize giving Spitzer and Kristen a free ride but condemning street walkers and throwing them in Jail? You are a libertarian that doesn't believe in equal justice for all?

GenWar
03-18-2008, 10:43 AM
When life throws lemons at you, make lemonade.


"Then, try to find someone whose life has given them vodka. And the two of you should have a party."

-Ron White (paraphrased)

As for the running commentary...

I hated Spitzer for reasons other than this incident. He was self-righteous, holier-than-thou and I was happy to see him take a fall. And, so far, I am kinda liking this Patterson dude. Two weeks ago, I wouldn't know him if I tripped over his body in the street, but now...he seems pretty cool. All's well that ends well, I say.

yoda57us
03-18-2008, 11:09 AM
"Then, try to find someone whose life has given them vodka. And the two of you should have a party."

-Ron White (paraphrased)

As for the running commentary...

I hated Spitzer for reasons other than this incident. He was self-righteous, holier-than-thou and I was happy to see him take a fall. And, so far, I am kinda liking this Patterson dude. Two weeks ago, I wouldn't know him if I tripped over his body in the street, but now...he seems pretty cool. All's well that ends well, I say.

And he got the "admitting to having an extra-marital affair" thing over with right away...

xdamage
03-18-2008, 11:14 AM
Now I'm not turning a blind eye to everything. I have a different issue with girls that walk the streets. They should all be put behind bars. I guess I am a walking contradiction..................................


Can I ask what your reasoning is?

Jenny
03-18-2008, 11:14 AM
We have many laws on the books today that are ridicuous. The government (federal, state, and local) have bigger issues to deal with. Drugs, murder, natural disasters, and other issues are more important to work on than to worry about what ES did with his own money. I don't think that what ES did with someone behind closed doors is this big of an issue for me.
Well; strictly the issue is not "what he did with his own money" but violating criminal law. I mean - if he paid to have someone killed, would you say "I don't think we should concern ourselves with what he does with his own money"? What if he did it behind closed doors? Doors and money are not the point; and while you may think it is a bad law and support him in trying to change it... I have suspicion of high level representatives who treat themselves as extra-legal beings. Of course - I'm not from New York. So, you know. Whatever. I'm sure nobody in Canadian government has ever hired a prostitute in an illegal manner.


Now I'm not turning a blind eye to everything. I have a different issue with girls that walk the streets. They should all be put behind bars. I guess I am a walking contradiction..................................Wel l nothing says "libertarian" like elitist and classist construction of criminal law.


I hated Spitzer for reasons other than this incident. He was self-righteous, holier-than-thou and I was happy to see him take a fall. And, so far, I am kinda liking this Patterson dude. Two weeks ago, I wouldn't know him if I tripped over his body in the street, but now...he seems pretty cool. All's well that ends well, I say.And there is a the lemonade then.

yoda57us
03-18-2008, 11:52 AM
Now I'm not turning a blind eye to everything. I have a different issue with girls that walk the streets. They should all be put behind bars. I guess I am a walking contradiction..................................





Well nothing says "libertarian" like elitist and classist construction of criminal law.


:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

JoeUnCool
03-18-2008, 12:00 PM
Can I ask what your reasoning is?

NP. This is a response to xdamage and yoda.

First off, I don't know much about prostitution beyond the basics that it is paying for sex. From reading this thread, one of the things that is paid for is the lack of disease. That would be one of my concerns with girls that walk the streets. Other concerns are drugs, crime, property values, and I am sure other things that go along with hookers on the streets. I wouldn't mind if prostitution was legalized and licensed with required medical tests. My view is get it off the streets.

Joe

PS. I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time. :)

JoeUnCool
03-18-2008, 12:02 PM
Well; strictly the issue is not "what he did with his own money" but violating criminal law. I mean - if he paid to have someone killed, would you say "I don't think we should concern ourselves with what he does with his own money"? What if he did it behind closed doors? Doors and money are not the point; and while you may think it is a bad law and support him in trying to change it... I have suspicion of high level representatives who treat themselves as extra-legal beings. Of course - I'm not from New York. So, you know. Whatever. I'm sure nobody in Canadian government has ever hired a prostitute in an illegal manner.

Well nothing says "libertarian" like elitist and classist construction of criminal law.

And there is a the lemonade then.

Murder for hire is a crime with a victim.

Joe

Jenny
03-18-2008, 12:26 PM
I don't see your point. Like I get that laws against prostitution are stupid - although I think your reforms are almost equally bad, just incidentally. I just don't see that it being a bad law means that we should not hold high level elected officials to a basic standard of not committing crimes.

xdamage
03-18-2008, 12:27 PM
NP. This is a response to xdamage and yoda.

First off, I don't know much about prostitution beyond the basics of paying for sex. From reading this thread, one of the things that is paid for is the lack of disease. That would be one of my concerns with girls that walk the streets. Other concerns are drugs, crime, property values, and I am sure other things that go along with hookers on the streets. I wouldn't mind if prostitution was legalized and licensed with required medical tests. My view is get it off the streets.

Joe

PS. I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time. :)

Okay it's just that most Escorts are basically walking the streets in a sense, yet as you pointed out, you use them. While they aren't literally on the street they wander into other people's places of business like Hotels and Bars. It seems to me they'd have to go too if we want to be strict about it.

JoeUnCool
03-18-2008, 12:27 PM
I don't see your point. Like I get that laws against prostitution are stupid - although I think your reforms are almost equally bad, just incidentally. I just don't see that it being a bad law means that we should not hold high level elected officials to a basic standard of not committing crimes.

I never said I was consistent or fair.

JoeUnCool
03-18-2008, 12:28 PM
Looks like Paterson has gotten around also.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/nyregion/18cnd-paterson.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Jenny
03-18-2008, 12:32 PM
I never said I was consistent or fair.Oh. So this isn't meant to sensible or intelligent. Hm. I don't think I could get my head around a goal to not make sense. You are clearly a far more sophisticated thinker than I.

JoeUnCool
03-18-2008, 12:35 PM
Oh. So this isn't meant to sensible or intelligent. Hm. I don't think I could get my head around a goal to not make sense. You are clearly a far more sophisticated thinker than I.

I clearly admit the inconsistency in my view.

Joe

Katrine
03-18-2008, 01:13 PM
Internetz and Craigslists escorts get diseases too, they have the convenient means to go to the doctor and get antibiotics. And if you think the escorts you frequent don't have HPV/HSV, you're mistaken. Most of the population just does.

JoeUnCool
03-18-2008, 01:24 PM
Internetz and Craigslists escorts get diseases too, they have the convenient means to go to the doctor and get antibiotics. And if you think the escorts you frequent don't have HPV/HSV, you're mistaken. Most of the population just does.

Yes, many escorts have diseases. My naivity assumes that girls that walk the streets have more, however, I have no data to back that up.

FYI, I don't go to escorts.

Joe

yoda57us
03-18-2008, 01:25 PM
I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time. :)


I never said I was consistent or fair.

OK, just so we understand where you are coming from....::)

Bottom line is you can't cherry pick which laws people can break and which ones they can't.
20 years ago I used to pick up street walkers. Now I don't. I book appointments with escorts. Are there differences? Yeah, many, but both practices are still illegal. If I get caught I will be charged with the same crime either way as will the lady that I am doing it with.

JoeUnCool
03-18-2008, 01:27 PM
Okay it's just that most Escorts are basically walking the streets in a sense, yet as you pointed out, you use them.

If I mistyped and lead you to believe I use escorts, I apologize. I do not use escorts.

Joe

doc-catfish
03-18-2008, 01:28 PM
Doc, the "infamy" wouldn't exist without the prior act. No one would know her name, no one would care.
I was never stating that it wasn't. It is rather funny though how a meaningless product completely unrelated to the act turned into a goldmine, (admittedly because of it). Makes one wonder if the other women who Spitzer (or any other noteworthy client) banged are at a recording studio right now, or doing a sex tape, or planning a signature line of casual clothes so they can cash in should their escort name turn up somewhere.

Just the same, I think I praised the exceptionalness of this gal's capitalistic spirit too soon. I had all but forgotten about this gal (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=466250&in_page_id=1879), who only blew a second rate actor for $60. Looks like she didn't do too bad for herself either.
:)

Jenny
03-18-2008, 01:31 PM
Yes, many escorts have diseases. My naivity assumes that girls that walk the streets have more, however, I have no data to back that up.

FYI, I don't go to escorts.

Joe
Well. So long as you are founding your opinions on no facts, with no interest in consistency, sense or merit and with many classist assumptions... I'm sure there is no way mistakes could creep there.

JoeUnCool
03-18-2008, 01:35 PM
Well. So long as you are founding your opinions on no facts, with no interest in consistency, sense or merit and with many classist assumptions... I'm sure there is no way mistakes could creep there.

Exactly.

safado
03-18-2008, 02:56 PM
We have many laws on the books today that are ridicuous. The government (federal, state, and local) have bigger issues to deal with. Drugs, murder, natural disasters, and other issues are more important to work on than to worry about what ES did with his own money. I don't think that what ES did with someone behind closed doors is this big of an issue for me.
Joe

I don't feel bad for ES, he is a hypocrite. He prosecuted prostitution cases, if it not ok for the people of New York to do than it should not be ok for him.

yoda57us
03-18-2008, 02:58 PM
I was never stating that it wasn't. It is rather funny though how a meaningless product completely unrelated to the act turned into a goldmine, (admittedly because of it). Makes one wonder if the other women who Spitzer (or any other noteworthy client) banged are at a recording studio right now, or doing a sex tape, or planning a signature line of casual clothes so they can cash in should their escort name turn up somewhere.


Honestly doc I'd love to hear from "Kristen" as to weather or not she wishes she could turn back the clock and never have had any of this happen. I mean, don't get me wrong, if it was me I would capitalize on it any way I could but once the cat was out of the bag. Still, I can't help but wonder if she wouldn't rather still be an unknown hooker with aspirations to a singing career. Either way, I hope she invests he earnings well. I'd say she's about ten minutes in to her 15 minutes of fame...

yoda57us
03-18-2008, 03:07 PM
Okay it's just that most Escorts are basically walking the streets in a sense, yet as you pointed out, you use them. While they aren't literally on the street they wander into other people's places of business like Hotels and Bars. It seems to me they'd have to go too if we want to be strict about it.

Um...well, sorta, sometimes, but not really. It's not really as cut and dried as you make it out to be X. I'm assuming you don't partake and this is a site about stripping not escorting so I'll spare you and everyone else my primer on the topic. Suffice to say there are many different ways in which women make themselves available and many different ways for men to procure such services. Some are safer and more discrete than others and there is not a whole lot in common among these different approaches other than the fact that they all involve the exchange of money for sex.

JUC never said he sees escorts by the way.

xdamage
03-18-2008, 03:27 PM
I'm not very interested in how one finds an escort. I am interested in issues of legalization versus decriminalization of prostitution, but how one finds one who is working illegally, and without mandatory testing is very secondary to me

I dont partake, but it is for various reasons, not just risk of being caught or disease..

yoda57us
03-18-2008, 04:02 PM
I'm not very interested in how one finds an escort. I am interested in issues of legalization versus decriminalization of prostitution, but how one finds one who is working illegally, and without mandatory testing is very secondary to me

I dont partake, but it is for various reasons, not just risk of being caught or disease..

As I said X I'm not trying to shove a course in "finding paid sex 101" down anyone's throat but I've read way to many uninformed generalizations over the last week or so...sorry.

Personally I favor decriminalization. I think legalization would create as many as many problems as it would solve. Honestly, I don't see either happening in the near future. The topic seems to come up every time there is a high profile story but the public attitude, by and large, doesn't seem to change much. Legal or not, there is a greater moral issue to be considered. Many if not most men who see escorts are married. Indeed, most seasoned ladies will tell you that they prefer married customers since they are less trouble and far less likely to turn stalkerish...does this sound familiar?
Legalizing or decriminalizing prostitution would not make it OK to most wives out there. The whole topic is still way too polarizing for any politician with long term aspirations to tackle. I don't see things changing much in the near future.

xdamage
03-18-2008, 04:35 PM
^^^

Yes. That is more along the lines of the type of tough questions that interest me. It's not a simple topic, and even in countries where it has been legalized, the societies remain polarized about prostitution. I don't have an strong stance because I can see a multitude of arguments, all valid, and many in conflict.

yoda57us
03-18-2008, 04:54 PM
^^^

Yes. That is more along the lines of the type of tough questions that interest me. It's not a simple topic, and even in countries where it has been legalized, the societies remain polarized about prostitution. I don't have an strong stance because I can see a multitude of arguments, all valid, and many in conflict.


I'm not even sure that legalization is an issue for the bulk of men or women that are involved in it. I don't worry about getting caught but it's a lot easier for a customer to minimize risk than it is for a provider. I'd love it if the ladies I see didn't have to worry about the legal ramifications though it certainly would not change the social stigma one bit.

Jenny
03-18-2008, 05:09 PM
Personally I favor decriminalization. I think legalization would create as many as many problems as it would solve.
I actually tend to think it would exacerbate the problems it is meant to solve (and my generalizations are very well informed). But you know - contrary to what you guys say - Americans love bureaucracy. If there was an administrative body out there to stamp an "approved" sticked on a hooker's butt, you guys would be all over it. I really do believe that all this stuff about "no, prostitution shouldn't be illegal, it should be regulated" is just because you guys can't stand the idea of cash exchanges for a service that does not require monitoring in any way. And of course - we are dying to have some scarlet letter to stamp on them. If not "C" for "Criminal" we can do a "D" for Disease carrier, right?

sun child
03-18-2008, 05:28 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with Jenny.

yoda57us
03-18-2008, 05:42 PM
I actually tend to think it would exacerbate the problems it is meant to solve (and my generalizations are very well informed). But you know - contrary to what you guys say - Americans love bureaucracy. If there was an administrative body out there to stamp an "approved" sticked on a hooker's butt, you guys would be all over it. I really do believe that all this stuff about "no, prostitution shouldn't be illegal, it should be regulated" is just because you guys can't stand the idea of cash exchanges for a service that does not require monitoring in any way. And of course - we are dying to have some scarlet letter to stamp on them. If not "C" for "Criminal" we can do a "D" for Disease carrier, right?

Jenny, I'm not in favor of regulation at all. That is part of my issue with the whole topic of legalization. I'm totally in favor of two consenting adults being able to do whatever they want with no outside interference from any government agency.

I don't think I've posted any opinions even remotely resembling the attitudes that you are talking about here. That may well be a prevailing popular opinion but it no way reflects my views on the topic. I'm pretty well informed as well.

Personally, I've spent most of the last week shaking my fist at the television and cursing idiot Spitzer for bringing undue attention to an endeavor that is best conducted discretely. His arrogant mistake has caused a shit storm of holier-than-thou media coverage from so called "experts" who think that they have a clue of what really goes on between men and women who are involved in the worlds oldest profession.

Jenny
03-18-2008, 06:05 PM
Jenny, I'm not in favor of regulation at all. That is part of my issue with the whole topic of legalization. I'm totally in favor of two consenting adults being able to do whatever they want with no outside interference from any government agency.

I don't think I've posted any opinions even remotely resembling the attitudes that you are talking about here. That may well be a prevailing popular opinion but it no way reflects my views on the topic. I'm pretty well informed as well.I know. I was agreeing with you.

Yoda - why is everyone always trying to fight with me?

hockeybobby
03-18-2008, 06:16 PM
I know. I was agreeing with you.

Yoda - why is everyone always trying to fight with me?

That's ridiculous, everyone loves you.

oh...I see you're point.

xdamage
03-18-2008, 06:22 PM
...I'm totally in favor of two consenting adults being able to do whatever they want with no outside interference from any government agency. ...

I am in favor of that too, but therein lies the gray area and quandry. What you wrote is simple, but that's the only simple thing about it. The reality is not simple.

For example, watch closely at how often even the ladies here almost sub-consciously feel that 18 year old women are not really completely adults. It happens without even thinking, but it is happens very very often, that they argue that younger sex worker is being victimized by an "older" manipulative man. What about age 21? Better yes, but watch and you'll see plenty of victimization arguments continue well past 21. When it comes to sexual situations between older men and early 20 somethings, even our most liberal women often fall back into arguing that many women are not completely able to make adult decisions in the presence of an older, more experience male.

And there is a valid argument that some, maybe even many, women end up in the line of work feeling they have no other choice in life, they aren't really mature, they walk away feeling victimized, etc. That they often suffer from emotional damage selling their bodies. And there is a valid argument that many women really are physically victimized, and that's why prostitution requires it be conducted in a place that provides protection from victimizers, that working alone is dangerous, and women really can't be safe making their own decisions to work privately.

See if it only it was so simple as choices made between two mature, truly responsible, consenting adults my opinion would easily be decriminalize it. But the reality is it is only simple when we either intentionally ignore the gray areas and issues, or are ignorant of them.

Jenny
03-18-2008, 06:38 PM
Well. You know. Technically. Creating equality of bargaining power is not normally a function of law, much less criminal law. The immaturity of 18 year olds notwithstanding - the age of consent is not 25. It ranges between 14 and 18. And of course the criminal law does not typically function to criminally prevent labour relations that may be unpleasant to one party. Otherwise there'd be no such thing as a domestic. And there is a definition, both domestic and international, for "forced labour" that excludes labour engaged by economic necessity. I'm just saying. None of those arguments are particularly powerful; and they are certainly not sound reasons for making prostitutes criminals instead of patrons. Like those concerns would be far better addressed by decriminalizing the prostitutes and only criminalizing the patronage of prostitutes.

yoda57us
03-18-2008, 06:53 PM
I know. I was agreeing with you.

Yoda - why is everyone always trying to fight with me?

Sorry Jenny, sometimes I'm suffer from basic reading comprehension issues.../:O

Honestly, I like agreeing with you...I do...for real...:)

yoda57us
03-18-2008, 07:13 PM
I am in favor of that too, but therein lies the gray area and quandry. What you wrote is simple, but that's the only simple thing about it. The reality is not simple.


Well, it is as simple or as complicated as we choose to make it. Legal and unregulated means just that. There is an age of consent in every state and the fact is any legislation governing legalized prostitution will be passed on a state by state basis. If a woman and a man are at or past the age of legal consent then they are on their own. Simple.

You know, the job isn't for everybody. No job in the sex industry is. There is little to no regulation in strip clubs or in the porn industry beyond simple age of consent rules. Nobody is stepping in to protect the eighteen year old girl who just got talked into doing a double anal scene by a forty year old director.

As far as the gray areas. I have to be honest, I'm perfectly fine with ignoring them. The vast majority of women that I have met in the sex industry were perfectly capable of taking care of themselves and making their own decisions.

xdamage
03-18-2008, 07:24 PM
Well. You know. Technically. Creating equality of bargaining power is not normally a function of law, much less criminal law. The immaturity of 18 year olds notwithstanding - the age of consent is not 25. It ranges between 14 and 18. And of course the criminal law does not typically function to criminally prevent labour relations that may be unpleasant to one party. Otherwise there'd be no such thing as a domestic. And there is a definition, both domestic and international, for "forced labour" that excludes labour engaged by economic necessity. I'm just saying. None of those arguments are particularly powerful; and they are certainly not sound reasons for making prostitutes criminals instead of patrons. Like those concerns would be far better addressed by decriminalizing the prostitutes and only criminalizing the patronage of prostitutes.

If you focus on any one facet of a complex social problem it will forever be misleading. This is only a facet of the bigger set of issues.

One argument is that people engage in prostitution anyway, and yes the age of consent is in the 14-18 age range for many choices, but most people in our society really don't believe that is the full set of issues.

Not all choices a person faces in adulthood are equally as difficult. Therefore it isn't as simple as the age of consent of 14-18, done.

Witness our regulation of recreational drugs. If it was as simple as age of consent we'd have no regulations, but we do. In fact most advanced cultures do. Why?

Just like some drugs incur some heavy costs to individuals, and have a negative impact on those around them, there is a good argument to be made that prostitution also has a heavy negative impact on individuals and ultimately on society. Now I am not going to justify that belief either way, but the arguments are not completely dismissable either.

In fact, in many ways the women on SC have further provided evidence that some women are emotionally harmed by sex work; most have boundaries and feel very strongly about them (thus raising the question, do laws discourage women from engaging in prostitution and encourage them to try other jobs first?); that customers can be excessively rough if not downright approach rape without controls to limit them; and more.

Even in societies, like the Netherlands where prostitution is legal, many women in society frown on it, and would feel emotionally violated by engaging in it. It raises a very tough question then, are young women doing it because they see no other routes in life, but suffering for it? People do that with drugs too; take them for relief now feeling they have no other choices, but pay a heavy price later that goes beyond the law. It impacts on their productivity in society down the road, and on their relationships with those around them.

There are other issues to be considered too. Bottom line is I understand the human desire to want to take a complex issue and solve it with a simple one liner, but this issue has remained complicated in our society and others for so long because it really IS a complex issue.

Jenny
03-18-2008, 07:30 PM
If you focus on any one facet of a complex social problem it will forever be misleading. This is only a facet of the bigger set of issues.Taking complex social issues and just directly grafting them into complex legal issues is not necessarily more elucidating.

xdamage
03-18-2008, 07:31 PM
As far as the gray areas. I have to be honest, I'm perfectly fine with ignoring them. The vast majority of women that I have met in the sex industry were perfectly capable of taking care of themselves and making their own decisions.

Well, most customers don't want to think about the possibility that she went home at that night, tried to scrub the memories off her body, and cried herself to sleep that night, but that imagery right there... courtesy of Jenny who provided it on more then on occasion, and that was over stripping, which is legal, not fucking.

I'm just saying.. the part of their lives that you see is a combination of what they wanted you to see, and what you wanted to see because it is what made you feel good about you, but the big picture view of the war does not come from within the foxhole.

And you may have well met women how felt fine about it afterwards, but I'd say you have to be naive not to even ask, how many are doing it because they feel there is no other choice in life while crying themselves to sleep night after night over it? Laws don't stop those who will do it, but it may discourage women who are on the fence, and just maybe that is a good thing too. It is much the same reasoning we apply to drugs. Laws don't stop all people from taking drugs, but they discourage many people who are on the fence, and there is an argument that is a good thing. Of course there is an argument that it is a bad thing, but there is no argument that drugs aren't good for everybody. I think there is probably no argument that prostitution isn't good for every sex worker either (by their own admissions).

xdamage
03-18-2008, 07:39 PM
Taking complex social issues and just directly grafting them into complex legal issues is not necessarily more elucidating.

Jenny, you need to save that kind of logic for the kiddies who are fascinated by deconstructionism. You said nothing there but trying to thrown a train off the track. It is a good way to win an argument, but a terrible way to learn anything new.

The real world is complex. Laws are complex because they are reflections that reality is complex. Social issues are often complex. Laws are created by us people, tools meant to serve us, not the other way around, so I prefer to look at the social issues first, and worry about what laws are currently in effect to try and manage them second since they are at best poor reflections of the underlying social issues.

We all know prostitution is illegal, but there are complex issues as to why humans have created laws that way. It's not as simple as a conspiracy on the part of the man. The solution is not as simple as simply changing the laws. Many men and women in our society and others see many problems with prostitution and our laws reflect that it is not simple for many.

Jenny
03-18-2008, 07:51 PM
The real world is complex. Laws are complex because they are reflections that reality is complex. Social issues are often complex.
Well. Gosh. Thank god you were here to tell me that. Otherwise how would I have known?

xdamage
03-18-2008, 07:57 PM
Well. Gosh. Thank god you were here to tell me that. Otherwise how would I have known?

Jenny, I know you know that... just your other reply ... well it didn't really add anything I don't know either, so .. same kind of point.

p.s. Also don't forget, I'm not a lawyer ;) My interest in the law falls far short of yours. I enjoy learning some, but laws vary worldwide, and bottom line is my interests remain in the realm of how people think and feel about this issue, not the specifics of the law. The thing is, it's not just the USA where societies have laws in place and various levels of restrictions about prostitution... the social feelings and thoughts run deep and wide through many cultures.

yoda57us
03-18-2008, 08:15 PM
Well, most customers don't want to think about the possibility that she went home at that night, tried to scrub the memories off her body, and cried herself to sleep that night, but that imagery right there... courtesy of Jenny who provided it on more then on occasion, and that was over stripping, which is legal, not fucking.

I'm just saying.. the part of their lives that you see is a combination of what they wanted you to see, and what you wanted to see because it is what made you feel good about you, but the big picture view of the war does not come from within the foxhole.

And you may have well met women how felt fine about it afterwards, but I'd say you have to be naive not to even ask, how many are doing it because they feel there is no other choice in life while crying themselves to sleep night after night over it? Laws don't stop those who will do it, but it may discourage women who are on the fence, and just maybe that is a good thing too. It is much the same reasoning we apply to drugs. Laws don't stop all people from taking drugs, but they discourage many people who are on the fence, and there is an argument that is a good thing. Of course there is an argument that it is a bad thing, but there is no argument that drugs aren't good for everybody. I think there is probably no argument that prostitution isn't good for every sex worker either (by their own admissions).

X, like I said it's simple. You are trying to complicate it by worrying about issues that it is simply not the average person's responsibility or business to worry about. A consenting adult is either allowed to make his or her own decisions or not. It doesn't matter what the job is.

To put it bluntly I have real world experience with this. I'm willing to bet I know more prostitutes than you do. I know a few very well. Yes, there are casualties. There are women that should never get involved in it. By the same token there are women who put themselves through college doing it and go back to it because they LIKE making six figures a year and maybe only having to work a few days a week to do it. There are victors and victims in all walks of life X. If you want to protect them that's fine, I'm not naive enough to think I am going to change your mind on this but I simply don't see it as my responsibility to tell someone else what they should or should not do to earn a living.

As I said, it is as simple or as complicated as people choose to make it.

Jenny
03-18-2008, 08:15 PM
Jenny, I know you know that... just your other reply ... well it didn't really add anything I don't know either, so .. same kind of point.
My other reply answered to each individual point you made with something actually substantive as opposed to "well, it's complicated".


p.s. Also don't forget, I'm not a lawyer ;) My interest in the law falls far short of yours.I don't expect you to be as interested or for that matter as knowledgeable about the law in this area as I am. However considering that you were replying to an issue of... you know, law, the rationale, purpose and scope of the law is sort of the point.

xdamage
03-18-2008, 10:30 PM
X, like I said it's simple. You are trying to complicate it by worrying about issues that it is simply not the average person's responsibility or business to worry about. A consenting adult is either allowed to make his or her own decisions or not. It doesn't matter what the job is.
...

As I said, it is as simple or as complicated as people choose to make it.

Yoda, I understand the alternate reality where we enter our heads and imagine it's all just nothing more complicated then what we make it, but I try to live in the real world not in a fantasy land in my head. In the real world real people really do have issues with prostitution. It's not just another job as evidenced by several very easily observed behaviors/beliefs that are common across many cultures, and across the male and female population. For example -

o Read Stripperweb - it is common for strippers to have negative things to say about "whores". As liberal as they are, even among that population feelings about prostitution run deep, and often negative.

o Most parents, male and female, even those who use prostitutes, would have a different reaction to "Daddy, I want to be a prostitute when I grow up" then they would to thousands of other jobs.

o Most men, even those who use prostitutes, would have a different reaction to "Honey, I'm going to turn some tricks to make some extra money" then they would to their spouses choosing to make money in other ways.

o Even in societies where prostitution has been legalized, both men and women remain strongly polarized about it.

This is the real world. I'm not making it complicated. I'm just looking at real human behavior and facing the fact that people don't see prostitution as just another job, and there are reasons why.

I understand you've chosen not to be interested in it, but that is because that's what's in your best interest as a user of prostitutes. But by the same token, it doesn't mean you are particularly unbiased about this, or that because you've chosen to not be concerned, that others should not or cannot. Your POV is fine, and I'm not saying change it, but the laws and social questions go beyond "Yoda has chosen not to be concerned with these things". Enjoy not being concerned, but I'll go on being interested in trying to better understand also the points of view of people who are concerned and are pushing for laws to limit prostitution. They do have something valid to say, even if it doesn't benefit you or some prostitutes.





My other reply answered to each individual point you made with something actually substantive as opposed to "well, it's complicated".



Actually you ignored a lot of the points and focused on the law, and I understand why you see that as substantive, because you are in school and so your head in academic la-la land.

In the rest of the world though we want to know how people feel and think, and that is substantive because that is "real"... it may not be written by a lawyer, but our feelings and thoughts on the matter as people is substantive as it gets. It's the lawyers who live in a partial fantasy world, not the people who make up society and have feelings and thoughts about prostitution.

As I said to you before, the law is just a poor reflection of how people really think and feel about prostitution. We can put it aside and ask how people feel about it without reciting what the current law is. The real people around you with real feelings about prostitution, including a lot of negative feelings is as real and substantive as it gets.



However considering that you were replying to an issue of... you know, law, the rationale, purpose and scope of the law is sort of the point.


It's not the point at all. The point was not at all about what the law is in this country at the moment, or what it is in any other country at the moment. The law in this country is not universal so reciting it is not interesting to me.

The point was that laws about prostitution in multiple countries reflect that in most societies both men and women in these societies have issues with prostitution. I don't care about the specifics of the law in our country because laws change. I do care that there is a near universal sense across multiple countries that prostitution is not simple another "job" like working as a Dental hygenist.

I was balking at the simplistic solutions of just legalize it... duh, like others have thought of that before, but there is reason why it's not so. Many people in many cultures don't agree and they have a say in the law too.