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All Good Things
03-18-2008, 10:50 PM
Quite frankly, any guy who chooses to see escorts runs the risk of getting caught. While it's true that a politician or any other public figure is more likely to wind up on the news for his discretion the consequences of getting caught can be devastating for anyone. Every man who visits escorts wants absolute discretion. The reality is that no agency can guarantee it. They can charge more money under the pretense of promising privacy protection but the reality is that there are too many factors that are beyond their control for them to guarantee it. Indeed, in this case Spitzer's own money handling tactics not only helped cause his downfall but helped lead to the federal investigation of the agency. This led to the exposure of other clients.

Clients number one through eight are in deep shit because client number nine got cocky...

I'm with Conan O'Brian on that point: Clients number one through eight were Charlie Sheen. :)

I have no real experience in this specific sector of the industry, very much unlike other sectors, and I yield to your expertise. But I would respectfully suggest that the dramatically larger fees in fact create a profound economic incentive -- absent at lower levels -- to maintain confidentiality in the interest of keeping the gravy train running. I agree that no agency would have reasonable management control over this, but the economic imperative -- the sheer volume of cash involved -- could reasonably be expected to exert its own motive force.

yoda57us
03-19-2008, 04:35 AM
But I would respectfully suggest that the dramatically larger fees in fact create a profound economic incentive -- absent at lower levels -- to maintain confidentiality in the interest of keeping the gravy train running. I agree that no agency would have reasonable management control over this, but the economic imperative -- the sheer volume of cash involved -- could reasonably be expected to exert its own motive force.

In principle you are absolutely right TOO. The problem is you can not remove the issues I talked about from the equation. Agencies, no matter what they charge, do not set out to intentionally get busted, to be wire-taped or to be forced to turn over client info. It happens when someone screws up. Most often greed, arrogance, stupidity or all of the above is involved.

How do you prevent bad things from happening? Well, you can never be 100% safe but anyone looking for absolute discretion stands a better chance with a $300 an hour indie lady than they do with any agency no matter what the fees are. Life is simple. You can only have complete control over your own actions and no one else's. No one involved in the Spitzer case intentionally compromised his identity. A series of events led to an investigation by people who make a living out of looking for suspicious and covert activities. You minimize risky behavior by minimizing the number of people who know about that behavior. With an agency there are owners, bookers, other clients, credit card transaction records and a data base. With an independent there is just you and her. Yes, there are other customers who may screw things up for her but, for the most part, other than a list of "do not see" phone numbers indies keep no records and only the stupid ones take credit cards.

I understand that you live in a world where money talks but you need to understand that the vast majority of escorts operate in a world where discretion and loyalty are paramount. I know absolutely nothing about any of the independent escorts in NY or the DC area but if they are anything like the ones I have met and gotten to know in Boston over the years you can bet that many of them are seeing very high profile clients and being very quite about it. Return business with men you feel safe with is what it is all about for these women.

yoda57us
03-19-2008, 04:40 AM
Yoda, I understand the alternate reality where we enter our heads and imagine it's all just nothing more complicated then what we make it, but I try to live in the real world not in a fantasy land in my head. In the real world real people really do have issues with prostitution. It's not just another job as evidenced by several very easily observed behaviors/beliefs that are common across many cultures, and across the male and female population.

X, trust me, I live in the real world, not the one that you read about in magazines and on the internet. I am not denying that any of the issues that you are talking about here exist. I am simply saying that they should not effect the right of a woman to do whatever she wants to do with her body to earn a living.

Obviously we disagree, we have vastly different ideologies about a lot of issues X and this is just one of them. The one true reality here is that as long as folks disagree about this particular topic the way that you and I do the status quo will pretty much be maintained.

That much at least is simple...

xdamage
03-19-2008, 06:09 AM
... I am not denying that any of the issues that you are talking about here exist. I am simply saying that they should not effect the right of a woman to do whatever she wants to do with her body to earn a living.

Obviously we disagree, ...

Actually like I said when I started my comments, I don't have a strong opinion either way. I know that drives some people crazy and that they must have a stance, and assume everyone else thinks that way, but I think it's okay to leave this one as too complex to solve, leave it as "I don't know", and be open to seeing more then side to the argument.

The thing is that same argument applies to other areas in life, such as allowing people to ingest or insert into their bodies whatever they want; to watch whatever they want; to teach their children whatever they want; and yet the reality is our laws (and other laws in other cultures) aren't so simple. This reflects that not all people see sex for sale as a simple yes, or no matter, like so many other jobs. The laws that have been formed, by people, are reflections of those human thoughts and feelings on the matter.

From a certain point of view I agree with you, but there are other points of view that I think are also equally strongly argued and valid. Those points of view hinge on the well argued facts that some activities cause harm to individuals and ultimately to society. Societies aren't just free-for-alls. They are about balancing the freedoms of individuals with what is also good for the group. My mind simply can't turn a blind eye to those arguments because they do make sense.

Jenny
03-19-2008, 07:10 AM
Actually you ignored a lot of the points and focused on the law.
Because we're talking about whether or not it should be criminal activity. That is a legal issue. The law is a very sensible place to focus.


I was balking at the simplistic solutions of just legalize it... Actually the discussion you blundered into was over decriminalization versus legalization. I'm so embarrassed for you right now. Even more so since you don't have the sense or wherewithal to be embarrassed yourself.

xdamage
03-19-2008, 07:30 AM
Because we're talking about whether or not it should be criminal activity. That is a legal issue. The law is a very sensible place to focus.

Actually the discussion you blundered into was over decriminalization versus legalization. I'm so embarrassed for you right now. Even more so since you don't have the sense or wherewithal to be embarrassed yourself.

No, I took the discussion in a new direction by introducing new ways to look at the issue... you just weren't keeping up. The embarrassment, if there is any, is that you are still stuck in an old, predictable thinking about this issue.

The law is not the end all of knowledge Jenny (only in Academic land is that so). It is at best a compromise of the majority opinion in society, and often not even that.

To really understand humans and why we have those laws, you need to step back, get away from the issue of legalization versus decriminalization, and get in touch with how people really feel and think about prostitution. That's the way to learn something new in this discussion.

By the way your rant about America's stance on the issue was myopic. Similar laws are to be found through out much of the world. However that is not surprising given that the common factor is humans which often share similar thoughts and feelings about the matter of paid for sex.

Also, the decriminalization vs legalization debate has gone on and will go on for long before you were born and probably long after you die. It isn't some brilliantly new complex discussion that we all haven't heard before. We know the legal age argument. Old news. Little new info was being added by repeating the same old debates about it for the billionth time. The only way to really learn something new then is to forget about those old argument sand approach the problem from new angles.

Jenny
03-19-2008, 08:10 AM
To really understand humans and why we have those laws, you need to step back, get away from the issue of legalization versus decriminalization, and get in touch with how people really feel and think about prostitution. That's the way to learn something new in this discussion.
Eeesh. I'm even more embarrassed for you now that you are trying to educate me on the role of law in society. How mortified do you have to make me on your behalf before you just stop?

xdamage
03-19-2008, 08:16 AM
Eeesh. I'm even more embarrassed for you now that you are trying to educate me on the role of law in society. How mortified do you have to make me on your behalf before you just stop?

Why would I stop because you are mortified? Having ego problems much? You aren't the standard by which the world spins on it's access. For that you need Hockey Boy to grovel . ...but eventually you will grow out of being a 20 something, leave the Academic world, and look back and realize your own youthful folly.

At this point in your life though it is understandable that you think your views and experiences are the pinnacle of human understanding. Don't worry, eventually you will grow out of it like so many have before you ;)

In the mean time, the rest of the world will go on debating the prostitution issue, go on being undecided, whether or not you re-iterate the US or Canadian law to them, and they will go on seeing the issues transcend the law. If you can't yet see that, give it time.. you will eventually get it.

yoda57us
03-19-2008, 08:19 AM
From a certain point of view I agree with you, but there are other points of view that I think are also equally strongly argued and valid. Those points of view hinge on the well argued facts that some activities cause harm to individuals and ultimately to society. Societies aren't just free-for-alls. They are about balancing the freedoms of individuals with what is also good for the group. My mind simply can't turn a blind eye to those arguments because they do make sense.

I'm not suggesting that we turn a blind eye to anything. Nor am I advocating a free for all of any sort. We are a country governed by laws. I just don't happen to think there is any valid reason for this particular law.

I am well aware of the realities that exist within the context of what we are talking about here. One fact that has to be considered however is that a lot of these problems exist because prostitution is illegal. The abuses that happen occur most often because those being abused feel that they have no legal recourse. Young women who are clearly too young to be making decisions like the ones we are talking about her fall into a world where their only means of support becomes relying on illegal activities or depending on those who profit from them. Decriminalization would remove the largest single reason for young women falling victim to this illegal underground economy-the fact that it wouldn't be illegal anymore.

Yes, of course there will have to be some adjustment to civil law and their would still have to be a concentrated effort on preventing underage women from practicing the trade. We already do this at convenience and liquor stores every time a teenager tries to buy a pack of cigarettes or a case of beer. Prostitution has been a revenue stream for every bad guy from OC to local pimps for too long. If you eliminate the criminal aspect of it you also eliminate the ability for criminals to profit from it.

Jenny
03-19-2008, 08:23 AM
What I'm asking is whether there is no saturation point at which you actually become aware of your own humiliation?

yoda57us
03-19-2008, 08:32 AM
To really understand humans and why we have those laws, you need to step back, get away from the issue of legalization versus decriminalization, and get in touch with how people really feel and think about prostitution. That's the way to learn something new in this discussion.


And you need to understand that a huge part of the reason that people feel the way they do about prostitution is colored by the fact that it is illegal and even more so by the way that the profession is portrayed in the media.

As with many stories, only the extreme ends of the spectrum get any attention. The stories of high priced busts and images of street walkers are on the news every night but the fact that the vast majority of prostitution goes on discretely and without harm to anyone behind closed doors is pretty much a non story.

Yes there are many sides to the discussion X but I'm pretty comfortable with my POV. It seems Jenny is as well. I'm not going to speak for Jenny but I didn't just stumble into the world we are talking about here last week. I don't really need to learn anything "new".

xdamage
03-19-2008, 08:34 AM
Jenny,

This debate about prostitution, legalization versus decriminalization has been going on long before you were born, and remains an issue in much of the world. The fact is people are on the fence and it is a horse that has been beaten to death and still people are on the fence. That is the bigger picture.

When you recite law, while a professor may give you a high mark for it, it is not impressive to me. In fact, the opposite. It reminds me of naive students who act like doggies, hoping to get treats from professors, while being quite oblivious the real world.

The real world hasn't yet decided this issue; it's all over the map in different countries and even where laws are more lax, people debate it. If you want to impress me, add something new. Repeating the law like a good doggy will not earn you an X treat. I'm not your professor, and this isn't academic land.

xdamage
03-19-2008, 08:38 AM
And you need to understand that a huge part of the reason that people feel the way they do about prostitution is colored by the fact that it is illegal and even more so by the way that the profession is portrayed in the media.

Oh I know, but let me give you an example...

I was talking with two of the 25ish year olds from our Netherlands office. These are very liberal women, piercing, tattoos, think they are liberal about sex, but when I brought up strippers, both instinctively reacted with "omg, you know what is next... WHORES". They even grew up in a land where prostitution is legal, yet the thought of selling their bodies remains offensive to them. Which leads me to think that the thought of selling one's body maybe really is offensive on a human level that transcends (and preceeds) laws that allows it.

But you are right. If the laws were different, and it is a valid argument too, at least those who are going to do it would be better accepted by some.

Like I said, I see why there are mixed feelings and thoughts about this issue, but I also don't see those mixed feelings going away.

Jenny
03-19-2008, 08:42 AM
Repeating the law like a good doggy will not earn you an X treat. I'm not your professor, and this isn't academic land.It is just so sad that you think you can viably compare the value of your knowledge and consideration on this topic to that of my professors.

xdamage
03-19-2008, 08:50 AM
It is just so sad that you think you can viably compare the value of your knowledge and consideration on this topic to that of my professors.

I was talking about you, not your professors. You are a student that has much to learn, and your comments indicated that.

But no, I don't worship your professors. If you do, great, but the fact still remains, real people continue to debate the issue of prostitution, and they continue to debate the current laws, which tells me that those who created the laws also don't have a lock-hold on absolute truth.

Jenny, your worship of them is typical academic think. You will eventually leave that world, and eventually see they are just good old humans, who also don't have ultimate answers or necessarily even a good understanding of human nature.

Jenny
03-19-2008, 09:02 AM
I was talking about you, not your professors. You are a student that has much to learn, and your comments indicated that.It's really equally sad that you imagine that you're in a position to evaluate that.

(Oh my gosh! FBR! Right there! The inveterate attitude of customers that they are in a position to evaluate me! You see?)

Lunarobverse
03-19-2008, 09:05 AM
xdamage's mild disclaimer that he doesn't have a strong opinion on the topic does not appear to blunt the lecturing and superior tone he's chosen to use in this discussion.

xdamage
03-19-2008, 09:07 AM
It is just so sad that you think you can viably compare the value of your knowledge and consideration on this topic to that of my professors.

By the way if I was going to be a good old tin foil hat wearer, I'd point out you just managed to insult the vast majority of society, and shown your hand.

In essence you are saying that real people in our society are incapable of providing input into our legal system, and incapable of having opinions about our laws, because they are not lawyers and professors in academic settings.

By dismissing input from people in our society on the grounds that they are not lawyers and professors, you in effect have shown your supreme arrogance. What an ivory tower to live in! But that is the problem with academic settings... it is an artificial reality and until you get out of there.

Lawyers and the law are a tools created, and meant to serve us people, and our society, not the other way around. And lawyers and the law are often corrupted by financial concerns, and academic think that tries to protect lawyer egos, not necessarily what real people in society want, or what is in the best interest of everyone.

Thank you, but I'll go on believing that real people in our society have a lot to say on the matter, even if they are not professors or a to-be-lawyer like yourself.

Jenny
03-19-2008, 09:12 AM
By the way if I was going to be a good old tin foil hat wearer, I'd point out you just managed to insult the vast majority of society, and shown your hand.
It's also incredibly sad that you view acknowledging expertise as a not only a personal insult, but an insult to society in general.

xdamage
03-19-2008, 09:37 AM
xdamage's mild disclaimer that he doesn't have a strong opinion on the topic does not appear to blunt the lecturing and superior tone he's chosen to use in this discussion.

There was nothing mild about it. I absolutely don't have a decided opinion on the topic of legalization, decrimalization, or neither. There are good arguments both ways, and suspect that for most guys here their feelings about it would be a lot stronger too if it involved their own daughters, mothers, and wives, but it is popular to appear neutral and to come across as liberal at times.

In any case, think about it a bit. The "I don't know" position is the position of non superiority. The position of arrogance and unstated superiority is those who think they have all the answers to this tough question and that it is simple. It is unstated arrogance, but it requires either supreme naiveness or arrogance to think they have an answer to a problem that has been debated for centuries if not millenia.

Also make no mistake. I don't go out of my way to always be agreeable to 20 something academic females. If I think they are wrong I just say it. It's not a superiority matter. It is an honesty matter. It does them or me no good to agree when I don't.

JoeUnCool
03-19-2008, 09:38 AM
I have no real experience in this specific sector of the industry, very much unlike other sectors, and I yield to your expertise. But I would respectfully suggest that the dramatically larger fees in fact create a profound economic incentive -- absent at lower levels -- to maintain confidentiality in the interest of keeping the gravy train running. I agree that no agency would have reasonable management control over this, but the economic imperative -- the sheer volume of cash involved -- could reasonably be expected to exert its own motive force.

Same here. I have no expertise in this sector (or any other sector of the industry). I would think that the amount of cash would be a good reason to keep quiet. I guess that's why the ES story was broken by the feds and not by a girl running her mouth at a bar or to a friend.

Joe

xdamage
03-19-2008, 09:48 AM
It's also incredibly sad that you view acknowledging expertise as a not only a personal insult, but an insult to society in general.

Nobody said that.

But the fact remains that people are often unhappy with the laws in this country or any country. As hard as it as for some people to say for ego reasons, sometimes the reality is there really are no perfect answers, and any laws we agree on will be a trade offs of benefits and harms.

In addition, you apparently haven't learned the reality of academia, so I will give you an example.

When Saddam Hussein lit fire to the oil wells in Kuwait, about half the scientists argued that it would cause dramatic world-wide weather changes. About half disagreed. Both were "experts" yet they were in complete opposition about their points of view.

We actually didn't need experts to guess either way; both had good facts, but both sides were unable to put their egos aside and say "I don't know".

Applied to your professors, and lawyers, they argue the prostitution debate endlessly, as do people outside of an academic setting, and while polarization is strong on both sides, the only group of people that are impressing me are those who realize there are too many variables to predict the outcomes, and "I don't know" is their conclusion.

There is one difference. While academics in science often argue about matters requiring a lot of science to understand the issue, lawyers often argue about matters that humans easily relate to.

Part of the problem is that most people are not comfortable with "I don't know" - they want answers, even if the answers are wrong or require closing one's eyes to other facts. Such is human nature.

Expertise in some areas impresses me more then others. Depends the field and how much information is needed that is outside of the scope of what the average person understands from daily experiences.

Don't confuse knowledge that is just private club-knowledge (e.g., this is how we must write patents) with wisdom or understanding of topics that humans relate to (e.g., sex, relationships, human feelings about sex and selling sex, etc.). Lawyers are not psychologists or medical doctors. They understand somethings, but are not necessarily experts on all factors that have led humans to create laws the way they have with regards to prostitution.

yoda57us
03-19-2008, 09:50 AM
Seriously - Yoda is one of relatively few Americans comfortable with decriminalization. I was talking to a young lawyer from Seattle and she was all "well, it should be legal and regulated", and when I said or you could just not regulate it she responded with "but then it would be unregulated."

I do so love being included in Jenny's relatively small but enlightened minority...:)

If you do any reading on the Erotic Review, especially over the last week or so, you will see that there is a fair amount of support for both options and also a large contingent (myself among them) who think there will be no change in the immediate future. Interestingly, many providers, even some who have worked in the legal brothels of Nevada, come down in favor of decriminalization rather than legalization. Some even prefer status quo out of a concern for over-regulation.

Jenny
03-19-2008, 10:15 AM
In addition, you apparently haven't learned the reality of academia, so I will give you an example. Do you know what is downright depressing? That you think the fact that academic disagree makes the thought worthless.

Jenny
03-19-2008, 10:16 AM
I do so love being included in Jenny's relatively small but enlightened minority...:)

If you do any reading on the Erotic Review, especially over the last week or so, you will see that there is a fair amount of support for both options and also a large contingent (myself among them) who think there will be no change in the immediate future. Interestingly, many providers, even some who have worked in the legal brothels of Nevada, come down in favor of decriminalization rather than legalization. Some even prefer status quo out of a concern for over-regulation.
I don't really; but really it's more of a cultural predisposition than lack of enlightenment.

xdamage
03-19-2008, 10:21 AM
Do you know what is downright depressing? That you think the fact that academic disagree makes the thought worthless.

Again, nobody said that. Jenny, your brain is very rigid about somethings. You hear absolutes where none are said. As I told you many times before, my brain lives in a world of gray scales, probability curves, and interest in patterns.

The academic thought process is not completely worthless, but it is also a process that often generates it's own form of stagnation. Humans do that in groups. it is a common pattern that people inside of a group end up locked into a set of thinking and possibilities that are limited by what the group rewards them for.

xdamage
03-19-2008, 10:23 AM
But the tone you're using is coming across as arrogant and condescending. .


No more or less than the arguments which I was arguing against.



At least to me, and, if I'm reading Jenny right, to Jenny as well Sir, your biases are showing.

LOL.

Yes, there are biases showing, as in your need to be agreeable with Jenny.

Jenny
03-19-2008, 10:27 AM
Again, nobody said that. Jenny, your brain is very rigid about somethings. You hear absolutes where none are said. As I told you many times before, my brain lives in a world of gray scales, probability curves, and interest in patterns.

The academic thought process is not completely worthless, but it is also a process that often generates it's own form of stagnation. Humans do that in groups. it is a common pattern that people inside of a group end up locked into a set of thinking and possibilities that are limited by what the group rewards them for.
And do you know what is sad about this? That you think you are in a position to evaluate the expertise experts and decide what valuable thought is.

Gosh, this whole thread has turned way depressing.

xdamage
03-19-2008, 10:36 AM
...
If you do any reading on the Erotic Review, especially over the last week or so, you will see that there is a fair amount of support for both options and also a large contingent (myself among them) who think there will be no change in the immediate future. Interestingly, many providers, even some who have worked in the legal brothels of Nevada, come down in favor of decriminalization rather than legalization. Some even prefer status quo out of a concern for over-regulation.

Well, you'd have to try and find societies where this was done.

Amsterdam is an interesting experiment right now, although sex is legalized, not decriminalized, but it's not all rosy.

Several issues are coming to light including:

1.) Increasing concern over sex trafficking and slavery of young women who feel they have no other choices in life, or who are "tricked" into coming to the country to work. Also many who argue it is causing them emotional harm, nightmares, increased hatred of men, other emotional problems are appearing as trends.

2.) The business has bred several side problems too with John's taking much of their money.

3.) I understood when I visited the red light district why women who live in the Netherlands did not want to go. The one who did was groped, taunted, asked for sex, etc. She took a cab back because she did not enjoy that treatment in public. Obviously it is not universal, but there are far more males in this section of town then women, and in a state of sexual excitement, young men often don't behave well.

4.) Decreasing cost of sex. As the number of girls increases, the cost to the end consumer are coming down. The sex workers don't particularly like this trend as they make less and less money. I would guess they'd like decriminalization even less?

5.) Strip clubs are all but gone now, replaced by live sex shows, increasingly interactive shows because that is what the public demands given that paid for sex is so cheap.


So there will be trade offs. If you know anything about Chaos theory, it is very likely that there are just too many variables to guess them all until it is tried, and then we have new/different issues to deal with, needing yet new laws to address the new problems.

yoda57us
03-19-2008, 10:36 AM
I don't really; but really it's more of a cultural predisposition than lack of enlightenment.


Well, I'm not implying that you do or that you should...it was more of a rhetorical "as a matter of fact" kind of thing...

At any rate, it's a boring site if you are not involved in that segment of the sex industry but, for obvious reasons, things have been jumping over there for the past week or so...

Jenny
03-19-2008, 10:42 AM
Well, in my last year I capitulated and I'm doing a paper about the industry - it's really quite dry; issues of labour relations, nothing salacious (I just think sex workers are paradigmatic of the new economy) and I wandered over to TER to check out the rules. I was particularly interested in this:
http://www.theeroticreview.com/info_policies/reviewSubmission.asp
Rule 7.

xdamage
03-19-2008, 10:43 AM
And do you know what is sad about this? That you think you are in a position to evaluate the expertise experts and decide what valuable thought is.

You'll eventually grow out of worshiping them once you are out of school, and see that "experts" are people too, often just as lost and opinionated as everyone else, particularly when it comes to muddy areas like the law. If that is a depressing thought, well, it will pass.

One of the great things about being a little older. When I was your age I saw many institutions are larger then life. Once I got older I see them as just groups of people, people who are imperfect, people who sometimes believe very dumb things, and the only thing that keeps them honest and growing is push back from the rest of the world.

My lawyer at least has the good sense to make fun of it by littering the office with lawyer joke books. People tell the jokes about them anyway, seeing their flaws and the problems with laws created by lawyers. I guess lawyers worship other lawyers, but the majority of the population is not as enamored with the private club.

hockeybobby
03-19-2008, 10:46 AM
Well, in my last year I capitulated and I'm doing a paper about the industry - it's really quite dry; issues of labour relations, nothing salacious (I just think sex workers are paradigmatic of the new economy) and I wandered over to TER to check out the rules. I was particularly interested in this:
http://www.theeroticreview.com/info_policies/reviewSubmission.asp
Rule 7.

Guys rating escorts higher because they have unprotected sex or exhanging bodily fluids seems a tad fucked up.

Jenny
03-19-2008, 10:52 AM
You'll eventually grow out of worshiping them once you are out of school, and see that "experts" are people too, often just as lost and opinionated as everyone else, particularly when it comes to muddy areas like the law. If that is a depressing thought, well, it will pass.
Dude - I already outlined all the ways that you depressed me. Now you're just repeating them. Really now you can just scroll up and cycle through all the other sad things you've said.

xdamage
03-19-2008, 10:53 AM
And do you know what is sad about this? That you think you are in a position to evaluate the expertise experts and decide what valuable thought is.



By the way, this is the kind of thinking that people use when it comes to religion in less advanced societies, and dogma in general. It is also the weakest of defenses... The last line of defense.

OMG, you are questioning the judgment of the eldars?

Yes, I question. Even if you go to theology school and become an expert, I will question your logic and beliefs if it seems flawed to me. Even if you had your psych degree, I'd will question ideas and thinking that seem incomplete to me.

I can't help if that depresses you.

Jenny
03-19-2008, 10:56 AM
Guys rating escorts higher because they have unprotected sex or exhanging bodily fluids seems a tad fucked up.
Well, it is fucked up. But it is also interesting because you have a consumer base that is starting to behave a lot more (well in some ways - so maybe only a little more) like an employer than as individual consumers. Like individual consumers are no longer privileging whatever they happen to privilege, but have to tailor themselves to an external quality control with the deliberated and intended outcome of placing downward pressure on what I would call the safety of the experience (although they might call it lack of intimacy).

yoda57us
03-19-2008, 11:45 AM
Guys rating escorts higher because they have unprotected sex or exhanging bodily fluids seems a tad fucked up.


Well, it is fucked up. But it is also interesting because you have a consumer base that is starting to behave a lot more (well in some ways - so maybe only a little more) like an employer than as individual consumers. Like individual consumers are no longer privileging whatever they happen to privilege, but have to tailor themselves to an external quality control with the deliberated and intended outcome of placing downward pressure on what I would call the safety of the experience (although they might call it lack of intimacy).

Well, it's not fucked up at all if you consider the venue that you are in. The reviews and ratings exist so that potential clients know what is offered and what is not. Otherwise the most commonly used aspect of the site would be useless.

I know it may not be part of your research Jenny and may also not be of any more than a passing interest to you either HB but I would urge you both not to judge the site, it's purpose or it's participants based only on the review criteria. Yes, the purpose of TER review board is to rate your customer experience with a provider and post details about services offered. A big reason for this is because specific sex acts can not be discussed on the phone or in emails without possible legal ramifications. There are also thousands of threads on boards covering all aspects of industry where both customers and providers participate. I think you will find that the average female participant is far from being bullied or forced into anything. I would urge you to spend some time reading the general discussion threads before making any decisions about who is in charge of what happens in the room during an appointment.

Yes, it is a business and on TER it is treated that way. There is competition, there are many women who are willing to offer levels of service that some may feel are unsafe and many men who are willing to pay for those services. For the record, the topic of Bare Back Full Service is off limits and anyone who starts a thread looking for it or even trying to talk about it is banned from the board and the thread expunged.

There will always be guys who read a provider's profile and still show up trying to get her to go bareback or do anal or some other service that she doesn't offer. It happens to ladies I know all the time. You just say no. It's really that simple. Most of the time that guy will wind up on the gal's do not see list as soon as he leaves. Often times the lady just gives him back his money and asks him to leave.

Is the customer an "employer". Not in my experience. Agency girls, if they are smart, work as independent contractors, Indie girls work for themselves. If you don't want to see a guy you don't see him. The reason that providers screen their customers and do back ground checks is for their own safety.

hockeybobby
03-19-2008, 12:09 PM
But Yoda, a higher rating numerically is a desirable thing right? ...for the lady being rated, and the guy looking for a superior lady. But the higher numerical rating is obtained by doing risky acts. It seems a contradiction to me. But if it works for everyone involved as you say...whatever.

You are right though, I'm not one to talk much about TER as I'm not a participant, it is only a passing interest. I'll go back to being a mildly interested observer. :)

Tauries
03-19-2008, 12:12 PM
You'll eventually grow out of worshiping them once you are out of school, and see that "experts" are people too, often just as lost and opinionated as everyone else, particularly when it comes to muddy areas like the law. If that is a depressing thought, well, it will pass.

One of the great things about being a little older. When I was your age I saw many institutions are larger then life. Once I got older I see them as just groups of people, people who are imperfect, people who sometimes believe very dumb things, and the only thing that keeps them honest and growing is push back from the rest of the world.

My lawyer at least has the good sense to make fun of it by littering the office with lawyer joke books. People tell the jokes about them anyway, seeing their flaws and the problems with laws created by lawyers. I guess lawyers worship other lawyers, but the majority of the population is not as enamored with the private club.

Just had to throw you some props for a great post!! When I picture your tete a tete with Jen filmed as Vin Diesel lecturing a shorn manatee I am no longer depressed and filled with laughter. Thanx bro!!

Jenny
03-19-2008, 12:15 PM
Well, I'm not "judging" them per se. Like - okay, I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to pay a girl for anal sex. I don't think there is anything wrong with believing that it enhances your experience with an escort and rating it as such. I do get suspicious though, when a board that exercises (from what I've heard) a great deal of control over a person's livelihood (although apparently in some regions more than others) uses that control to impose an industry standard. Like my point was exactly that consumers are not simply rating their experience; they are rating what their experience would have been to the guy that wrote the review criteria. I think when you combine these factors you are dealing with something other than consumer preference. I want to analogize, but I can't find one that makes sense. Like when I said there is "downward pressure" I don't mean bullying or pressure from an individual customer to an individual provider; I mean in terms of the site and the review rules of the site exerting pressure on the industry to adopt as standard certain behaviour that actually excludes consumer input that doesn't share that agenda. It's not a matter of "I think everyone at TER sucks"; I've read a couple of reviews and the rules - that's all. I have no opinion on the membership.

Although, funny enough I watched an episode of "Secret Life of Call Girl" and it was the internet episode. I was all "Yeah. That would work. If everyone reading that review has a) never read a review before and b) is stupid."

yoda57us
03-19-2008, 01:00 PM
Yes, ownership of TER and even some board moderators have basically been accused of trying to get free sex form some of the providers who participate. I'm quite certain this is true to some degree as I know of one agency that was mysteriously banned a few years ago for refusing to send girls out to California to "service" the guy who owns the site.

Is it perfect? No, absolutely not. Are they trying to influence the industry to some degree? That may well be the case but another thing that is worth mentioning here is that TER is not as ubiquitous as they would like to think they are. It is by far the most popular site of it's kind but lots of guys who hire escorts have never even heard of it. If you arrive in any major city looking for sex and google "escorts" you will not get a hit to TER for so sometimes two or three pages. Eros, Cityvibe, ASPD, Back page, The other Board, Craig's List and a variety of other escort mall sites will all come up before TER will.

Again, the reviews are the reviews. The local and regional boards are really where the rubber meats the road on TER and all sorts of opinions are expressed. There are just as many guys concerned about uncovered BJ's as there are guys saying they won't see a woman who doesn't offer them.

yoda57us
03-19-2008, 01:05 PM
But Yoda, a higher rating numerically is a desirable thing right? ...for the lady being rated, and the guy looking for a superior lady. But the higher numerical rating is obtained by doing risky acts. It seems a contradiction to me. But if it works for everyone involved as you say...whatever.


Yes, you've got it right. The reason for this is simply because most guys want these acts HB. Without getting into a debate about STD's I will say that, statistically and based on my experience most guys prefer uncovered oral and may want to DATY with a provider. Uncovered bare back sex is another issue. It is looked upon as unsafe and is not allowed to be discussed. There are no extra points awarded for being a complete idiot...

xdamage
03-19-2008, 04:31 PM
But Yoda, a higher rating numerically is a desirable thing right? ...for the lady being rated, and the guy looking for a superior lady. But the higher numerical rating is obtained by doing risky acts. It seems a contradiction to me. But if it works for everyone involved as you say...whatever.


HB, not so long ago we had a thread on this site regarding BJs in SCs, choices basically of no thanks, protected, or BareBack (aka BBBJ). If I recall the over-whelming votes for those who engage was BBBJ, despite that they are aware there are risks of STDs passed via mouth (e.g., gonorrhea even can be passed via mouth). Some know it, but don't believe it will happen to them, but guys prefer it because it "feels better". Smart or not, that's human nature. We are wired to have sex. We are not wired to wear latex, although some manage to learn enough self control to do that, others do not.

JoeUnCool
03-19-2008, 06:06 PM
Geez, I have no idea what anyone is talking about. What is TER? I've also heard ASPD mentioned. What the heck are these?

Joe

yoda57us
03-19-2008, 06:18 PM
Geez, I have no idea what anyone is talking about. What is TER? I've also heard ASPD mentioned. What the heck are these?

Joe

I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you....8)

mr_punk
03-19-2008, 06:21 PM
I actually tend to think it would exacerbate the problems it is meant to solve (and my generalizations are very well informed).well, if you consider NV to be a glimpse of what legalized prostitution would be like in this country. it's a no brainer. decriminalization wins. however, i don't think it's a panacea, but rather the lesser of two evils.

But you know - contrary to what you guys say - Americans love bureaucracy. If there was an administrative body out there to stamp an "approved" sticked on a hooker's butt, you guys would be all over it.true. you can't take a dump in this country without laywers wetting their beaks. therefore, i propose we name this administrative body the "World Headquaters Of Regulated Escorts".

I really do believe that all this stuff about "no, prostitution shouldn't be illegal, it should be regulated" is just because you guys can't stand the idea of cash exchanges for a service that does not require monitoring in any way.well, considering the outlaw mentality will still be prevalent among some of the participants. perhaps, they have a point.

And of course - we are dying to have some scarlet letter to stamp on them. If not "C" for "Criminal" we can do a "D" for Disease carrier, right?scarlet letters are so 19th century. how about a bar code or RFID tag which reads "VGR" for "vestgial gag reflex" when scanned by a PDA?

Guys rating escorts higher because they have unprotected sex or exhanging bodily fluids seems a tad fucked up.nah. it's your patriarchical birthright. men rank women all the time whether it's a wet t-shirt contest, strip club, night club or beauty pageant..er..scholarship pageant. in this instance, the criteria is a BBBJTCNQNS instead of who has the biggest titties.

Interestingly, many providers, even some who have worked in the legal brothels of Nevada, come down in favor of decriminalization rather than legalization. Some even prefer status quo out of a concern for over-regulation.or a concern about being subject to taxes and other requirements like any other business.

Amsterdam is an interesting experiment right now, although sex is legalized, not decriminalized, but it's not all rosy. Several issues are coming to light including:sure. ironically, one of the alleged benefits of either argument is that it would free up LE to concentrate their resources on more serious crimes.

yoda57us
03-19-2008, 06:22 PM
Had ya' for a minute there huh....Warning unless you really want to be a monger or a perve these are both pretty much a waste of time for you...

http://www.theeroticreview.com/main.asp

http://www.aspd.net/

xdamage
03-19-2008, 07:15 PM
sure. ironically, one of the alleged benefits of either argument is that it would free up LE to concentrate their resources on more serious crimes.

Yes. Of course the problem is finding dependable figures. But okay, depending on what you read, or want to believe, this is for example -

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/netherl.htm

This site argues that legalization has a resulted in a new, even worse problem to keep law enforcement busy.

Strangely though the trafficking might decrease if prostitution was decriminalized world-wide since there would be no need to go to the Netherlands to get a sex fix. But even that comes with side-effects, like the cost of sex going down down down.

Another side effect... Strip clubs may well end up going the way they have in the Netherlands... bye bye, since there is no point. Sex is cheap because prostitutes are so common, and competition is very high. For about 50 Euros you can window shop, pick a hottie, and have sex. Why pay for an over priced lap dance then when you can have so much more so easily? If you go to a club, it's for a a live interactive sex show. There are one or two champagne clubs left now, but they also have dildo shows and live sex. Strippers who are opposed to having sex with customers would find no work here.

miabella
03-19-2008, 08:35 PM
otoh, australia has legal brothels in many of its equivalent of states, and low/no contact stripclubs as the norm.

yoda57us
03-20-2008, 05:13 AM
Another side effect... Strip clubs may well end up going the way they have in the Netherlands... bye bye, since there is no point. Sex is cheap because prostitutes are so common, and competition is very high. For about 50 Euros you can window shop, pick a hottie, and have sex. Why pay for an over priced lap dance then when you can have so much more so easily? If you go to a club, it's for a a live interactive sex show. There are one or two champagne clubs left now, but they also have dildo shows and live sex. Strippers who are opposed to having sex with customers would find no work here.


Legalization would effect clubs for certain. I don't think it will cause their demise I actually think it will make them better especially for women who just want to dance.

Not every guy who goes into a strip club is looking for sex and not every woman who gets involved in the sex industry wants to be an escort. I still go to clubs on a regular basis. I don't turn my back on high contact or extras but they are not the reason I go either. I go to be entertained, to kill a few hours, and enjoy the show. Honestly I don't think the vast majority of guys are looking for a blow job when they go to a strip club though I'm sure the percentage varies from city to city and club to club.

There is a certain type of customer who, for whatever reason, would rather try and get a dancer to have sex with him then simply hire an escort. These guys have a variety of reasons including legal issues (rather comical since, once you pay her and she blows you it is immediately an act of prostitution and illegal). I think that a change in the laws would clear some of these guys out but not all of them. There will always be a segment of guys who see a hot girl on stage and just have to try and convince her to sleep with them at any price. of course, if prostitution were legal, she could!