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yoda57us
03-31-2008, 07:42 PM
I wish more folks around here would speak from the head and not the heart. Might make it a bit easier go for folks like me and far less heated.

More light, less heat. :)


In other words, you wish we would roll over and agree with you more...Sorry GR, none of us log on here to make it easier for you. (insert intentionally omitted pointless smiley here)

bem401
04-01-2008, 06:01 AM
That's why the question started with "a club owner looking to hire 1 girl to fill an opening." to separate out an utter distraction from the key question.

I don't know why that part is difficult given the vast number of strippers who have posted here that they have to interview for positions, and not all of them are hired. It's not really important anyway, but this notion that clubs sign up any girl with a pulse and house fees is just doesn't jive with reality.




I guess you also missed the question then. Let me recap.

1) A few people argued in favor of decriminalizing prostitution.

2) They argued there would be no side effects. I'm arguing there would be side effects.

3) There is a difference between decriminalization and legalization. You can look it up if it's not clear which is which. I am assuming everyone knows the difference between decriminalization versus legalization, because if not, then few of us are discussing the same topic.

4) The question was about "what if prostitution was decriminalized.", not legalized, and not illegal like it is today.


Now you mentioned "plausible deniability".

In a decriminalized world, asking a sex worker if they perform sex for pay is likely akin to asking a plumber if he plumbs. What is there to deny about? The thing is a strip club owner might already ask of a stripper questions like:

o Do you strip?

o Demonstrate your pole work.

o Do you lap dance?

o Demonstrate your lap dance.

These are legal things a stripper may perform in a SC, and must minimally be willing and able to to as they are relevant to the job. It's a fairly tiny and minor slope then in a decriminalized world for an SC owner to ask if they engage in other, completely legal, sex work. Or alternatively, it is easy enough for the dancers themselves to mention it as extra skills that may be relevant to the job, since we are talking about activities that are legal. So it's not much a stretch to see it factoring into an SC owners variables when choosing.

Well, I live in a state where non-streetcorner prostitution is legal. I'm not sure I get the difference between whether it is legal or merely decriminalized. I just know that as long as it doesn't take place on the streets, it's not prosecutable ( at least at this time ). So I am already arguing from a different perspective than others.

At the two clubs I am most familiar with, the housemoms do the hiring. The applicants come in, do an interview, and do an audition, and find out if they are hired. Having a regular customer vouch for them doesn't hurt either. The right customer can get a girl hired without even auditioning. As far as the lapdance aspect is concerned, no girl would work here if she didn't do lapdances, so that's not even an issue. And the clubs here are always hiring ( as far as I can tell ) because there are always new girls arriving and they are large, with 30 to 50 girls on most of the time.

The loophole regarding prostitution has affected the clubs. They have relaxed their rules, which for RI means there are little to no rules enforced right now. It used to be that if I needed to give a dancer a ride home, it had to be done discreetly, due to the fear of the appearance of prostitution. Now it isn't such an issue, due to fact that there is no possible legal problem and the fact that I am not some random guy leaving with a dancer I just met. That being said, the clubs prefer the girls not engage in escorting. I'm pretty sure they would be sent packing if they met clients at the club and one dancer/escort I know was told to get her internet ad off the web once customers started recognizing her.

bem401
04-01-2008, 06:23 AM
I think many short-sighted club owners work that way. More dancers means more tip-ins and that means more money for the club.

The problem is that when dancers don't make money they leave and go work someplace else. Frequently the best dancers leave first. That lowers the quality of the club for the customers who then stop coming themselves. [perhaps in more ways than one]

So, its a pennywise/pound foolish management style.

You want to keep the amount of dancers at a point where there is enough women of various types to keep the guys happy but not so many that when you divide their number into the amount of available money on the floor at any given time you "maximum earning potential" reduced below an acceptable level for the best dancers in the house. [You can't do anything for the gals who don't know their trade very well]



Some clubs, especially ones that don't serve alcohol, work that way. In bigger cities the ownership of a liquor licences is such a valuable commodity, literally worth 10s of thousands of dollars, and so difficult to get that no club owner is going to risk losing it. I mean, not without a payout on the other end that makes it SOOO profitable [and having extras available in your club doesn't make the long green necessary to match the long term profitablity of owning a liquor license] as to make it worth while.


Well, I doubt many SC owners have degrees from Wharton, Harvard Business School, or the local community college for that matter. Its a " live for the moment" business anyhow on the part of most customers, dancers, and owners it would seem.

I think a lot of clubs have seen a decrease in profitablity over the last few years and are responding by "hiring" girls they otherwise might pass on. They most likely figure "WTF, we aren't paying them". I doubt that hiring a bunch of mediocre girls has much effect on the 10's, and some of the 10's I know are not subject to all the same rules as the less valuable ( to the club ) girls, and that is their inducement not to leave.

yoda57us
04-01-2008, 07:18 AM
Well, I doubt many SC owners have degrees from Wharton, Harvard Business School, or the local community college for that matter. Its a " live for the moment" business anyhow on the part of most customers, dancers, and owners it would seem.

I think a lot of clubs have seen a decrease in profitablity over the last few years and are responding by "hiring" girls they otherwise might pass on. They most likely figure "WTF, we aren't paying them". I doubt that hiring a bunch of mediocre girls has much effect on the 10's, and some of the 10's I know are not subject to all the same rules as the less valuable ( to the club ) girls, and that is their inducement not to leave.

This pretty much sums up the reality of strip clubs for me.

Hypotheticals and statistical analysis are fun exercises but they just don't apply when the average strip club owner is a moron and most of their managers got into the business as bouncers and then worked their way up.
The primary business model is to unlock the door at noon, get some nekkid women on stage and see what happens.

A long time ago clubs actually paid dancers shift pay and hired selectively. As far as I can tell those times are long gone. Once clubs started charging dancers to work instead of paying them to work the entire dynamic changed. The dancer is a commodity not just for her ability to draw business but also to generate a daily automatic fee. House fees, tip outs and fines are all revenue generators for clubs and many club employees. DJ's in most clubs get paid in dancer tips and even they have to pay a fee to work in many clubs. House mothers, VIP room hosts or hostesses also get paid largely in tips. Shot girls and rub girls as well. Even bar tenders and waitresses benefit as the more dancers there are working the more drinks will be bought either by of for them.

In a perfect strip club world pretty girls would attract and keep plenty of customers so hiring selectively and keeping pretty girls happy would benefit club owners. The reality is that club owners want their money now. The knee jerk reaction every time business slows down is to first put more girls on, then raise their house fees and fines and finally, as a last resort, raise dance prices, drink prices and cover charges.

This is the reality that I see and, just to try and get back to the original topic of prostitution as it relates to strip clubs, it is the reason why no club owner will bother trying to choose between hiring a dirty dancer or a clean one. He will simply take both of their house fees and send them out on the floor to fend for themselves.

bem401
04-01-2008, 08:14 AM
The reality is that club owners want their money now. The knee jerk reaction every time business slows down is to first put more girls on, then raise their house fees and fines and finally, as a last resort, raise dance prices, drink prices and cover charges.

And when that drives even more business away, they roll back those prices and take their medicine like everyone else, yet apparently still keep too many girls on, though that be more indicative of too few customers than too many dancers, and the reliance on fees, fines , and tip-outs.

Katrine
04-01-2008, 11:13 AM
I doubt that hiring a bunch of mediocre girls has much effect on the 10's, and some of the 10's I know are not subject to all the same rules as the less valuable ( to the club ) girls, and that is their inducement not to leave.

Sure they have an effect. Let's say I'm an upper tier girl in a club filled with way too many girls. I can only be in one place at a time. Even the 10's get turned away, and have their time wasted by assholes. But during this time, all of the mediocres have anchored themselves at table where the custy isn't spending, getting him drunk and going in for the kill.

Etiquette states not to bother custies sitting with other girls. Hence, its win-win for the custy and the mediocre girl. Whilst the custy would probably rather spend his money on the hottie, he is getting free attention from the mediocre. During that time he can properly affix his beer goggles, and will end up buying from her. Keep in mind, I am not bringing extras into this.

Hence, the hottie can get left out sometimes. Its business, no big deal. But it does affect the better looking girl's money, don't doubt that. It also creates a huge sense of entitlement amongst the custs. To finalize, I am not presuming that the hottie is a "wanna dance" girl that won't spend time prospecting with these guys. Rather, the mediocre girl is going to be willing to sit with anyone for an hour in hopes of making a bit of money. A "10" knows better than to do that with an unknown.

bem401
04-01-2008, 12:39 PM
Sure they have an effect. Let's say I'm an upper tier girl in a club filled with way too many girls. I can only be in one place at a time. Even the 10's get turned away, and have their time wasted by assholes. But during this time, all of the mediocres have anchored themselves at table where the custy isn't spending, getting him drunk and going in for the kill.

Etiquette states not to bother custies sitting with other girls. Hence, its win-win for the custy and the mediocre girl. Whilst the custy would probably rather spend his money on the hottie, he is getting free attention from the mediocre. During that time he can properly affix his beer goggles, and will end up buying from her. Keep in mind, I am not bringing extras into this.

Hence, the hottie can get left out sometimes. Its business, no big deal. But it does affect the better looking girl's money, don't doubt that. It also creates a huge sense of entitlement amongst the custs. To finalize, I am not presuming that the hottie is a "wanna dance" girl that won't spend time prospecting with these guys. Rather, the mediocre girl is going to be willing to sit with anyone for an hour in hopes of making a bit of money. A "10" knows better than to do that with an unknown.

I hadn't thought of it like that and I can see your point. The specific "10"'s I was thinking of though do very little hustling at all. They always seem to know who is coming in and at what time. Thus they very rarely make the rounds asking for dances. These cases might be exceptions to the norm but the girls around here, particularly as of late, derive their money almost exclusively from regulars. However, if they were night girls counting on lots of dances then your point would seem correct.

xdamage
04-01-2008, 02:48 PM
Well, I live in a state where non-streetcorner prostitution is legal. I'm not sure I get the difference between whether it is legal or merely decriminalized. I just know that as long as it doesn't take place on the streets, it's not prosecutable ( at least at this time ). So I am already arguing from a different perspective than others.


The main difference can be done by way of example.

In a legalized system, the state would make it legal in some specific settings, like a brothel, but not necessarily in an SC so that the two businesses remain very distinct. Typically there would also be legal requirements to work, such as mandatory testing, condom use, etc.

Decriminalizing it on the other hand (which is what some people are in favor of) means making it legal without any additional restrictions or regulations. Basically if the situation is such that two adults could be having sex legally without pay, then they could have it for pay, the only difference being that the provider would probably have to declare the income and pay taxes like any other income. It is unclear if that should extend to an SC, because you could argue that an SC is only legalized to allow limited sexual contact, but it is questionable then if that law holds any weight as compared with two adults rights to engage in sex for money (which perhaps supercedes the legal restrictions that are currently set for clubs today).

In a legalized system, brothels and SCs are probably going to remain well separated. In a decriminalized system, which is nearly what you are describing, it is an open question what the impact is on the SCs, and the questions I am interested in.

Mind you, to be 100% clear again, I am not arguing that protecting SCs is a reason to choose either way, just that it would seem to me that over time, girls who are willing to do more end up cutting the available pie thinner for girls willing to do less.

In fact this is the very same argument that strippers already make today about extra girls. Just in a hypothetical tomorrow where prostitution is decriminalized it may even be a more pervasive fact that some girls are selling sex in the SCs and that is the competition. With decriminalization may come further de-stigmatization, and a greater number of girls coming in from out of the country to work and compete for available dollars (which has happened in the Netherlands).

The other variable in all of this is customer mindset. Few of us expected a high mileage grind 25 years ago. Today the mindset of the average customer has changed. That's why when an older guy says today "I go in for XYZ" they have to remember, sure, but 20 years from now you will be a customer on the out and a new wave of customers will be the norm and their expectations will be based on what they grew up with, what they experience as normal behavior in the clubs. If that includes a lot of legal sex, it will impact on their thinking about the differences between an SC and a Brothel (if any).

bem401
04-01-2008, 04:56 PM
I managed to get an explanation today. I doubt you'll see many places either decriminalize it or legalize it. It's only decriminalized here because some sharp attorney found a loophole in the wording of the law. The state legislature is discussing enacting a new law to close the loophole.

I think the thing to consider is that making other options more readily available to potential SC customers ( and there would be some overlap between SC customers and escort patrons) can only be bad for SC business.

mr_punk
04-01-2008, 05:22 PM
I think a lot of clubs have seen a decrease in profitablity over the last few years and are responding by "hiring" girls they otherwise might pass on. They most likely figure "WTF, we aren't paying them".well, perhaps they don't have that luxury to be selective in comparison to the good old days. you know, times do change. it's easy to be selective when you're the only game in town.

xdamage
04-01-2008, 07:50 PM
A big part of me is in favor of letting the chips fall where they may, so decriminalize sex (that means NO regulation on selling sex) and let the stigma for being a sex worker die a well deserved death.

But honestly I think the market for the tease-only sex-workers who made big money being an unusual commodity will die an obvious, and arguably, self-deserved death. I say self deserved because many SC workers also want reduced stigma and decriminalization without necessarily grasping that it's those very things that men are paying for... something forbidden, something on the verge of what is legal without crossing that line.

I have heard the argument that some guys don't go to engage in full out sex, often because of a disapproving SO, and that won't change. If your SO trusts you and you go see a sex worker for tease-only, what does it matter if it is legal for the sex worker to offer you more? We don't need laws for that, unless our SOs think that the law is a deterrent and stops us. (that is meant to be a retorical point) in which case that means it is the SOs out there that want the laws to stay as they area.

mr_punk
04-01-2008, 08:45 PM
But honestly I think the market for the tease-only sex-workers who made big money being an unusual commodity will die an obvious, and arguably, self-deserved death.will die? i thought it was already dead considering how much these girls cry about the good old days. you know, back when it was considered risque to show the pink taco.

I say self deserved because many SC workers also want reduced stigma and decriminalization without necessarily grasping that it's those very things that men are paying for... something forbidden, something on the verge of what is legal without crossing that line.i thought we were paying for the objectification and commodification of women. BTW, which is perfectly legal in a sc. yay!

miabella
04-01-2008, 08:51 PM
i can't imagine decriminalisation in america will change the fact that 300-500 in a night has been reasonable stripper earnings for about 30 years. might actually lower the number even more than it is in real dollar terms. strippers (and escorts for that matter) make less now in real dollars than they did pre-internet, even if the hourly rates and shift earnings haven't changed much.

mr_punk
04-02-2008, 05:02 AM
i can't imagine decriminalisation in america will change the fact that 300-500 in a night has been reasonable stripper earnings for about 30 years. might actually lower the number even more than it is in real dollar terms.$300-$500 adjusted for 30 years of inflation is approximately $1000-$1700 in today's dollars. $20 adjusted is approximately $70. so, the question is who's going to pay $70 for 3 minutes with an unskilled, highly commodified product? i mean, it's not like we're talking about a "highly select, skilled and educated" labor force like one would find at the late Emperors club.

strippers (and escorts for that matter) make less now in real dollars than they did pre-internet, even if the hourly rates and shift earnings haven't changed much.true, but if strippers didn't allow sc owners to wet their beaks. they would have been able to keep more of their dollars and use them to (a) pay their way off stage instead of acting surly when they can't or (b) apply it towards their rent instead of walking into the club with a new designer purse and crying,"i'm broke. i need rent money.".

bem401
04-02-2008, 06:59 AM
well, perhaps they don't have that luxury to be selective in comparison to the good old days. you know, times do change. it's easy to be selective when you're the only game in town.

Very true. But keep in mind how the house fees add up. The largest club in town has ( or had ) a day fee of $20 and a night fee of $30. So one year's worth of day fees would be approximately 350 days ( accounting for holidays and weather days ) X 20 dollars X 20 girls( avg) = $140000. Night fees 350 X 30 X 40 = $420000. This doesn't include the inevitable and exorbitant fines or the $10 per week per girl "schedule fee " ( probably another $50000 a year ). This is truly " money for nothing" and at least a partial explanation for the abundance of non upper-tier girls.

Katrine
04-02-2008, 11:22 AM
I hadn't thought of it like that and I can see your point. The specific "10"'s I was thinking of though do very little hustling at all. They always seem to know who is coming in and at what time. Thus they very rarely make the rounds asking for dances. These cases might be exceptions to the norm but the girls around here, particularly as of late, derive their money almost exclusively from regulars. However, if they were night girls counting on lots of dances then your point would seem correct.

Either way, I don't want anyone to think I am complaining. Its the evolution of the industry, no "10" has ever been entitled to anything more than a "6". Also, bem, don't you usually go into the clubs during quiet afternoons? Daytimes are prime for regulars, whilst at night, a "10" can bank much more with a one-shot, out of town businessman.

Not everyone is willing to deal with regulars exclusively. Regulars bring in diminishing returns. At some point, every one of those "10"'s is going to hustle again, and rebuild her base. My perspective holds true.

safado
04-02-2008, 03:37 PM
A big part of me is in favor of letting the chips fall where they may, so decriminalize sex (that means NO regulation on selling sex) and let the stigma for being a sex worker die a well deserved death.

I am in favor of decriminalization and letting the chips fall where they may, but if that would happen I don't think that would change the stigma. As long as there are holier then thou bible thumpers I think that the stigma would remain.

xdamage
04-02-2008, 04:41 PM
Right...

The stigma may never completely go away, but it can be reduced... as in a larger percentage of people accept stripping (or prostitution) as a legit job, and a larger percentage of young women may choose to work as a strippers (or prostitutes) because they don't feel there is a strong social deterrent.

My (younger) friends from the Netherlands say they are brought up with the social notion that prostitution is just a job like any other. In reality they aren't so open minded, but the seed is planted so that a woman that is on the fence about doing it or not doing, doesn't have the same degree of social stigma deterring them The impact of that will tend to be more women entering the work force, if all other things remain equal.

Golden_Rule
04-03-2008, 11:33 AM
In other words, you wish we would roll over and agree with you more...Sorry GR, none of us log on here to make it easier for you. (insert intentionally omitted pointless smiley here)

I'm going to try this one more time...

I mean precisely that I wish a comment made in well intentioned, honest, belief didn't draw the kind of response you just gave me.

Whether you agree with me or not does nothing for my personal feeling of well being and means, in the end, nothing to me. That isn't a personal slap at you, it is simply a statement of fact. The very same should, and probably does, apply to your need for me to agree with you. I mean to say I don't get the impression you are the kind of fellow who needs the approval of people you know from a website. What makes you think I would need that? [for the record, if you didn't know already, I don't]

What I would like to see is a state of discourse that leads to lively conversation that doesn't cross the line into ad hominem batting of each other about.

In fact, HEALTHY disagreement* adds to the mix and allows for good exchange of ideas. It makes things interesting and who knows someone, including myself, could potentially learn something.

So NO I am not looking for people to agree with me. Just for them to get over themselves and not assume things about the nature of my posts.

(Please to insert equally useless, but none the less truly felt, smiley face here.)

Geeze! :D

*Which I would define as stating what you believe in an up front way that backs up, or at least suggests you are willing to do so, those beliefs with on point information, facts, and does so in a way that doesn't resort to name calling, or suggesting some one's beliefs are less valuable to them than yours are to you [right or wrong as they may be], etc and so forth.


Aside: some day when you are out and about in my neck of the woods we'll have to meet and I'll buy you a beer and we can chat in person. Than you might see that I am not as pompous as you obviously think I am, and I might see you probably aren't as arrogant I think you to be. {chuckling good naturedly}

Golden_Rule
04-03-2008, 11:55 AM
I think a lot of clubs have seen a decrease in profitablity over the last few years and are responding by "hiring" girls they otherwise might pass on. They most likely figure "WTF, we aren't paying them". I doubt that hiring a bunch of mediocre girls has much effect on the 10's, and some of the 10's I know are not subject to all the same rules as the less valuable ( to the club ) girls, and that is their inducement not to leave.

I don't know about that.

These dancer may not think of themselves as "not 10s" but they do know if they aren't making enough. I have noted that in a lot of cases the decision to go into the extra biz is directly proportional to how much money is coming in.

Deciding to hire women that are either on the lower end of the looks scale, or believe themselves to be [because perception does play into it] can mean that dancers who are, or consider themselves to be, 10s are going to face with competing with dancers who are more, shall we say, service oriented.

One thing the dancers on the Pink Side have right, though they do them a disservice in the process, is knowing that a good percentage of men will pick a decent looking service oriented dancer over a 10 who thinks simply being pretty is enough to compete on the same level as that service oriented dancer.

Consumers are consumers, be it male or female. They are going to look for the best bang for the buck. Somewhere in each customers mind is a formula that answers that question for him or her. Each weights different aspects differently but we all do the math.

yoda57us
04-03-2008, 12:13 PM
I'm going to try this one more time...


GR, you can explain yourself a thousand times it it helps you feel better but it won't make any difference to me. I read what I read and I respond to it the way I respond to it.

There are hundreds of threads and thousands of posts by thousands of participants here. We all pretty much do our own thing. It works for some folks and it doesn't work for others.

bem401
04-03-2008, 02:04 PM
I don't know about that.

These dancer may not think of themselves as "not 10s" but they do know if they aren't making enough. I have noted that in a lot of cases the decision to go into the extra biz is directly proportional to how much money is coming in.

Deciding to hire women that are either on the lower end of the looks scale, or believe themselves to be [because perception does play into it] can mean that dancers who are, or consider themselves to be, 10s are going to face with competing with dancers who are more, shall we say, service oriented.

One thing the dancers on the Pink Side have right, though they do them a disservice in the process, is knowing that a good percentage of men will pick a decent looking service oriented dancer over a 10 who thinks simply being pretty is enough to compete on the same level as that service oriented dancer.

Consumers are consumers, be it male or female. They are going to look for the best bang for the buck. Somewhere in each customers mind is a formula that answers that question for him or her. Each weights different aspects differently but we all do the math.

I think we are speaking about two different types of 10's. Every strip club has a few 10's on at most any time but I'm talking about girls who are 10's anywhere, anytime, are comfortable with what they are doing, and have mastered all aspects of their trade and by that I am not referring to extras. I am talking about girls who are in the top 2 or 3 at a club with over a hundred dancers. I am assuming extras are not on their menu because they never mentioned them to me when we were customer/dancer or once we were more friends. Anything I might hear about them from anyone other than themselves, I would take with one very large grain of salt, knowing the way rumors circulate in the club. One girl I am thinking of works in a club with no minimum shifts per week and I think only shows up when she has appointments set. The other girl has a minimum but does whatever she wants because if she leaves ( as she threatened to do once ) about 6 or 8 big spenders would follow her across town to the competitor club. Her attitude is " if someone wants a dance, they'll ask ". Otherwise she is content to just wait till someone she knows comes in. Neither one of these girls pays much attention to or even seems to be aware of what others in the club are doing. They come in, do their thing, bank their money, and go home.

My perspective maybe a bit different becuse I only visit one ot two clubs but am there fairly often so I am pretty aware ( or so I think) of the dynamic. In fact, I'm going to go visit the club right now.

Golden_Rule
04-05-2008, 12:48 AM
GR, you can explain yourself a thousand times it it helps you feel better but it won't make any difference to me. I read what I read and I respond to it the way I respond to it.

There are hundreds of threads and thousands of posts by thousands of participants here. We all pretty much do our own thing.

That's just fine be me Yoda.

Its just that I wish that some people would stop telling me what I said, what I meant by it, and what my agenda must be.

Seems to me I would be the one who knows best what I said , what I meant by it, and what [if any] agenda I might have.

::)

Golden_Rule
04-05-2008, 01:00 AM
I think we are speaking about two different types of 10's. Every strip club has a few 10's on at most any time but I'm talking about girls who are 10's anywhere, anytime, are comfortable with what they are doing, and have mastered all aspects of their trade and by that I am not referring to extras. I am talking about girls who are in the top 2 or 3 at a club with over a hundred dancers. I am assuming extras are not on their menu because they never mentioned them to me when we were customer/dancer or once we were more friends. Anything I might hear about them from anyone other than themselves, I would take with one very large grain of salt, knowing the way rumors circulate in the club. One girl I am thinking of works in a club with no minimum shifts per week and I think only shows up when she has appointments set. The other girl has a minimum but does whatever she wants because if she leaves ( as she threatened to do once ) about 6 or 8 big spenders would follow her across town to the competitor club. Her attitude is " if someone wants a dance, they'll ask ". Otherwise she is content to just wait till someone she knows comes in. Neither one of these girls pays much attention to or even seems to be aware of what others in the club are doing. They come in, do their thing, bank their money, and go home.

My perspective maybe a bit different becuse I only visit one ot two clubs but am there fairly often so I am pretty aware ( or so I think) of the dynamic. In fact, I'm going to go visit the club right now.

OK, I have to admit that I lost the point you were driving at given what you said above.

My point was that when dancers make less money, and in their minds they connect that with some sort of lacking on their part, they are more apt to begin to think about one of three things: 1) fixing what they think their weak aspect is. 2) Leaving the business. 3) Filling in for that lack of something by providing something else. Usually extras.

So, when a club tends to hire these gals who are providing extras that means dancers who see themselves as totally competitive in the marketplace that is their strip-club are going to notice a drop in revenue. That drop in revenue is going to be directly related to the presence of dancers who provide extras now appearing in the club. That's only going to lead to a couple of things. Dancers who fall into the mindset mentioned above, or more self-assured types who are pissed off by what they feel to be inferior dancers using unfair tactics to "steal their money" [and in their minds stealing is precisely what it is, athough we customers hardly think that to be the case].

bem401
04-05-2008, 12:27 PM
OK, I have to admit that I lost the point you were driving at given what you said above.

My point was that when dancers make less money, and in their minds they connect that with some sort of lacking on their part, they are more apt to begin to think about one of three things: 1) fixing what they think their weak aspect is. 2) Leaving the business. 3) Filling in for that lack of something by providing something else. Usually extras.

So, when a club tends to hire these gals who are providing extras that means dancers who see themselves as totally competitive in the marketplace that is their strip-club are going to notice a drop in revenue. That drop in revenue is going to be directly related to the presence of dancers who provide extras now appearing in the club. That's only going to lead to a couple of things. Dancers who fall into the mindset mentioned above, or more self-assured types who are pissed off by what they feel to be inferior dancers using unfair tactics to "steal their money" [and in their minds stealing is precisely what it is, athough we customers hardly think that to be the case].

My point was the "10"s I know aren't really affected by, and consequently don't care, what anybody else is doing. They operate quite profitably in their own little world. And what may constitute an extra elsewhere in the country is par for the course here, so "extras girls" may outnumber ( or at least approach in number ) "non-extras girls". The girls I know have not been forced ( as of yet ) to choose among your 3 options.

xdamage
04-05-2008, 02:54 PM
10s may well always have the ability to sell a tease limited to stripping, no sex.

Problem is -

10's are in the eye of the beholder

10's get older too so it is a short-term gig

Even guys who go for 10s may eventually grow weary of the tease and spend some of their money on a sure thing.

Being a 10 and an Extra's girl are not mutually exclusive. In the Netherlands Prostitutes are often 10s because the competition is all relative.

bem401
04-05-2008, 03:08 PM
10s may well always have the ability to sell a tease limited to stripping, no sex.

Problem is -

10's are in the eye of the beholder

10's get older too so it is a short-term gig

Even guys who go for 10s may eventually grow weary of the tease and spend some of their money on a sure thing.

Being a 10 and an Extra's girl are not mutually exclusive. In the Netherlands Prostitutes are often 10s because the competition is all relative.

Everything you say is true and I don't dispute a word of it. Maybe one day the 10's I know will be forced to choose from among GR's 3 choices. That day just hasn't arrived yet. These girls are in their 30's and extras run rampant ( for chrissake escorting is legal and cheaper than a half hour room) yet they do exactly what they are comfortable doing, which compared to some others, isn't very much. I'm responding from my personal experience and observations, which may or may not be accurate and may not be applicable anywhere else.

xdamage
04-05-2008, 06:17 PM
Everything you say is true and I don't dispute a word of it. Maybe one day the 10's I know will be forced to choose from among GR's 3 choices. That day just hasn't arrived yet.

Yep agreed. It hasn't arrived yet, but it the future it is a very real possibility.

bem401
04-05-2008, 06:33 PM
Yep agreed. It hasn't arrived yet, but it the future it is a very real possibility.

Personally I don't think they'll find that necessary. If I know them as well as I think I do, they'll walk before that day comes. By that I mean they'll walk before becoming extras girls. But who knows, I've been wrong before. Other girls I know, non-10's, have been forced to make those choices. Most of them chose to get out. I'm assuming that one day these girls will follow them, they've just had a better shelf life.

miabella
04-05-2008, 08:11 PM
are these girls the top 2 or 3 in looks, earnings, or both?

xdamage
04-05-2008, 09:02 PM
Personally I don't think they'll find that necessary. If I know them as well as I think I do, they'll walk before that day comes.

Agreed, but I was thinking more about future generations. Things change. The attitudes of people born in future generations may well be more liberal in various ways then those of the past. Of course if the economy goes to shit or a war occurs, that could all change again very fast, but if you even just compare what most strippers do today with what they did 25 years ago (not that long on a historical scale really), most of the 10s of 25 years ago would have bailed out long before they would agree to today's level of contact. 25 years from now, the 10's may well see "extras" as we define them today as the norm.

Golden_Rule
04-05-2008, 09:31 PM
My point was the "10"s I know aren't really affected by, and consequently don't care, what anybody else is doing. They operate quite profitably in their own little world. And what may constitute an extra elsewhere in the country is par for the course here, so "extras girls" may outnumber ( or at least approach in number ) "non-extras girls". The girls I know have not been forced ( as of yet ) to choose among your 3 options.

Well if that is the case that is very cool, and exactly what I suggested earlier ought to be the situation. That dancers shouldn't be concerned about what other dancers are doing. The only person they are really in competition with is themselves.

Any dancer who knows that can bank no matter what anyone else is doing.


BTW, where is it you call home again? [he said hoping no one would notice that the reason he was asking was because bem suggested that extras are prevalent where he resides.] :)

I should point out that "extras", in and about the NYC metropolitan and Greater Philly area don't include stick shifting or mouthing over, or through, trousers. It pretty much starts with hand-jobs and goes up the scale from there.

In the PP circut there are no LM or air dances. Usually, though there are exceptions, HM lap dances are warm-ups for the up sell to extras in the VIP. Yes, that makes these PP pretty much bordellos with some lap dancing thrown in. Go ahead you Lovely Ladies who would prosecute those of us who enjoy our extras. Whip me. Beat me. Make me write bad checks. :D

mr_punk
04-05-2008, 09:37 PM
These girls are in their 30's and extras run rampant ( for chrissake escorting is legal and cheaper than a half hour room) yet they do exactly what they are comfortable doing, which compared to some others, isn't very much.is that so?

I'm responding from my personal experience and observations, which may or may not be accurate and may not be applicable anywhere else.well, there you go. IOW, you have no idea what they are doing with their other customers other than what they tell you. all you know is they're not performing extras with you.

The girls I know have not been forced ( as of yet ) to choose among your 3 options.how do you know? i mean, if you've been gladly paying without extras all this time. you think they'll tell you if they perform or decided to start performing BJ? LOL.

Being a 10 and an Extra's girl are not mutually exclusive. In the Netherlands Prostitutes are often 10s because the competition is all relative.true. in the U.S. there are "upscale and classy" sc with "upscale and classy" strippers which is nothing more than a thin veneer for an "upscale and classy" whorehouse.

bem401
04-06-2008, 07:18 AM
BTW, where is it you call home again? [he said hoping no one would notice that the reason he was asking was because bem suggested that extras are prevalent where he resides.] :) :D

Home is RI. What do those abbreviations you are using stand for? I know VIP ( duh), but the rest are unfamiliar to me.

Mia, in my estimation, they are top 2 or 3 in every aspect of the game, but part of that is admittedly subjective, though few people familiar with the girls in question would dispute me. They are consummate professionals at what they do. One of these girls once told me " I was born to be a dancer ", and she is the less impressive of the two.

bem401
04-06-2008, 07:38 AM
is that so?
well, there you go. IOW, you have no idea what they are doing with their other customers other than what they tell you. all you know is they're not performing extras with you.

You are right, that's why I qualified what I said. I have known them to refuse dances from guys they deem too demanding though.


how do you know? i mean, if you've been gladly paying without extras all this time. you think they'll tell you if they perform or decided to start performing BJ? LOL.

Well, because I've known these girls so long ( 5 yrs.+), I rarely dance with them anymore, only on those rare days where they are making almost nothing, and they take me up on my standing offer to help under those circumstances. On those occasions, as often as not, I'll just offer to cover their tipout. We have some (limited) interaction in real life, so that works out best. One of the girls has shared information with me far more personal than whether she gives extras in the club, so I see no reason why she'd lie about that.

mr_punk
04-06-2008, 03:04 PM
okay. ironically, there are number of posts around here by PLs who made similar claims after it turned out they didn't know their favorite stripper as well as they assumed. which makes the reality check all the sweeter.

miabella
04-06-2008, 03:13 PM
i have to agree with punk here. i've found his statement to be true both in regular stripclubs and on SW (which is The Club in Cyberspace).

Golden_Rule
04-06-2008, 06:53 PM
Home is RI. What do those abbreviations you are using stand for? I know VIP ( duh), but the rest are unfamiliar to me.

Extras are the norm in Rhode Island?

BTW = By the way

NYC = New York City

I figure you know this but you said "the rest" besides VIP so I include them all.

PP= Private Party. Not to be confused with the underground, though both are rather illicit. An underground club almost anyone can get into. All you need to have is the prerequisite info. Private parties are by invitation only. You have to be a known entity to get in.

LM = Low Mileage. Air dances. Lap dancing with minimal grinding and no hand roaming.

HM = High Mileage. Full contact dances with much grinding, hand roaming, usually things like stick shifting and/or the feigning of mouth/genital contact. Mostly over the pants because once it goes underneath its not HM anymore but -

Extras = Actual sex acts. Where the dancer comes in contact with the penis. It can be to customer's completion but its not necessary for it to be an extra to have taken place. Once skin or orifice comes in contact with the customer's naked neither regions we are talking extras.

yoda57us
04-06-2008, 08:08 PM
Entering the "friend zone" with a dancer does not necessarily guarantee honesty in all topics of conversation. What a dancer does in the private dance area is always going to be between her and the guy who is paying at the time. Not between her and the guy waiting at the bar.

Frankly, what's the difference? I was severely bummed many years ago when I found out that the hot Brazilian "nice girl" I had been spending hundreds to "cuddle" with in the VIP room was caught blowing guys in the parking lot of the club. What was I really upset about? Was it that she had lied to me about her motives for dancing and deceived me when she told me that she was a "good girl"? Was I upset because her actions had endangered her job at the club? No, ultimately I was pissed because I wanted the BJ's she had been giving other guys...

Golden_Rule
04-06-2008, 09:42 PM
No, ultimately I was pissed because I wanted the BJ's she had been giving other guys...


Or your money back.

yoda57us
04-07-2008, 02:36 AM
Or your money back.

No, not really. No buyers remorse. That's a wasted emotion in strip clubs and gets in the way of the fun. If I can't afford to spend whatever I spend (and it was a lot less in those days) I don't go. Once I'm there I spend on whoever is showing me a good time. The fact that this particular dancer was showing others a different kind of good time was disappointing but It didn't negate the fact that I enjoyed the time spent.

bem401
04-07-2008, 05:29 AM
Extras are the norm in Rhode Island?

BTW = By the way

NYC = New York City

I figure you know this but you said "the rest" besides VIP so I include them all.

PP= Private Party. Not to be confused with the underground, though both are rather illicit. An underground club almost anyone can get into. All you need to have is the prerequisite info. Private parties are by invitation only. You have to be a known entity to get in.

LM = Low Mileage. Air dances. Lap dancing with minimal grinding and no hand roaming.

HM = High Mileage. Full contact dances with much grinding, hand roaming, usually things like stick shifting and/or the feigning of mouth/genital contact. Mostly over the pants because once it goes underneath its not HM anymore but -

Extras = Actual sex acts. Where the dancer comes in contact with the penis. It can be to customer's completion but its not necessary for it to be an extra to have taken place. Once skin or orifice comes in contact with the customer's naked neither regions we are talking extras.

PP, HM, and LM were where I was confused. In, RI, HM is absolutely the norm, virtually with every dancer ( at least at every club with which I am familiar ) providing that. The girls I was referencing earlier would definitely be considered high mileage girls.

There is one club here, Cheaters, where I'm told extras are the norm and that any girl working there either provides them or ends up leaving. In fact I have been told that girls will actually reach inside a guys pants while on stage. Not sure I believe it ( I've only been there once or twice ) but that is what I have been told. Extras are available at the other clubs but I don't know if I'd say they were the norm.

Oh, and escorting is not illegal due to a loophole that may soon be closed.

bem401
04-07-2008, 06:12 AM
Entering the "friend zone" with a dancer does not necessarily guarantee honesty in all topics of conversation. What a dancer does in the private dance area is always going to be between her and the guy who is paying at the time. Not between her and the guy waiting at the bar.

Absolutely true. I merely said they avoided guys they said wanted extras and chose not to provide them. Could they have been lying? Sure. But everything I've experienced, seen, and heard from others ( both male and female ) would not contradict their claims that they don't do extras in the club. BTW, I do know of plenty of girls providing extras and doing OTC, so it is not a matter of me being oblivious to what goes on in these particular clubs. And I have no delusions about these girls being girl scouts either. They are definitely HM girls as defined by GR. If I were to find out they were providing extras, I'd be surprised but I wouldn't be "severely bummed". After all, they don't owe me any explanations to begin with.

yoda57us
04-07-2008, 01:24 PM
And I have no delusions about these girls being girl scouts either. They are definitely HM girls as defined by GR. If I were to find out they were providing extras, I'd be surprised but I wouldn't be "severely bummed". After all, they don't owe me any explanations to begin with.


Oh, I'm not saying anyone owes you me or the lamp post an explanation. I'm just saying that there are only two people who know what is going on in the private dance booth.

I was bummed because I wanted a blow job, not because I was upset that she was doing them...

bem401
04-07-2008, 04:14 PM
I was bummed because I wanted a blow job, not because I was upset that she was doing them...

I understand that and can empathize. And believe me, I'd love for any of these particular women to do that for me. However, being in the "friend zone " as you deemed it, which I'd say is a pretty accurate description of my status, its not a likely topic of discussion. Sometimes "friend status" has its drawbacks. LOL.

yoda57us
04-07-2008, 05:17 PM
Sometimes "friend status" has its drawbacks. LOL.

Um, yes, that was kinda the point when I started. It's also the reason that there are some things that a "friend" will never know. Not in your case in particular perhaps but in general.

Golden_Rule
04-09-2008, 03:40 AM
PP, HM, and LM were where I was confused. In, RI, HM is absolutely the norm, virtually with every dancer ( at least at every club with which I am familiar ) providing that. The girls I was referencing earlier would definitely be considered high mileage girls.

There is one club here, Cheaters, where I'm told extras are the norm and that any girl working there either provides them or ends up leaving. In fact I have been told that girls will actually reach inside a guys pants while on stage. Not sure I believe it ( I've only been there once or twice ) but that is what I have been told. Extras are available at the other clubs but I don't know if I'd say they were the norm.

Oh, and escorting is not illegal due to a loophole that may soon be closed.

Thanks for the info. I pass through Providence on my way to Falmouth, Ma a couple of times a year when I head up to the Vineyard, but that is precisely what I do: pass through. Perhaps I should stop next time. :)

bem401
04-09-2008, 06:10 AM
Um, yes, that was kinda the point when I started. It's also the reason that there are some things that a "friend" will never know. Not in your case in particular perhaps but in general.

I don't doubt for a minute there are loads of things I don't know and never will about these girls in particular or friends in general. Nor am I interested in them sharing things with me they'd rather not. Until indications to the contrary though, I have no reason to doubt them. Its not like I have solicited them or asked them if they did those things. They brought it up, indicated they didn't like customers looking for extras, and chose to avoid involvement in that aspect of the business.

youngBUTbanking
04-11-2008, 02:46 AM
ehhh...fuck that...

I'd consider paying that much maybe for Vida Guerra...maybe...

probably not...

Mastridonicus
04-12-2008, 02:01 PM
In regards to the Spitzer reference and other severely wealthy folks paying to get their rocks off: I'd love to see the details on how he moved/attempted to hide the money. Was it transfered to failing businesses not declared hobbies yet to be declared tax free?

Personally, I've seen Luxury LLC's owned by famous people with "Employees" that had small paychecks but huge LLC-Expense accounts. Big city apartments that where declared "offices" and company vehicles that where in a "marketing budget".

That shit is amazing to me.

The fact is, when you own a bank account that makes thousands in interest alone, 4k may be no more than a couple hundred bucks to that lifestyle. So, in that aspect? I'd be grateful that he made that kind of money and was willing to over-pay to get his rocks off. I bet he tips amazingly at the hairdesser too.