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Sindi
03-15-2008, 09:15 AM
Did I miss this thread somewhere ? I actually feel pretty sick over the whole thing to be honest . Hilary should step her game up now , if she really wants the chance to run . My jaw literally fell open when I watched the pieces of Rev Wrights sermon , I find it devastating that people feel that way about things . It really says alot about Obama who I kinda liked before this , that he enjoys the mentor-ship relationship of a man who is anti America and seemingly very racist and all about conspiracy theories .......The whole situation makes me sad that someone like a Reverend would preach to a bunch of loyal followers things that are so .....crazy? for a lack of better term . Ok well I am sure this thread has already been made somewhere and I missed it , I did not put this is Political Poo because its not just Political , this is social and moral too .

Sindi
03-15-2008, 08:34 PM
R we serisous here ?? No one is talking about this !!!!

Optimist
03-15-2008, 08:52 PM
I think most people realize that your friends, mates and yes, even mentors can say whatever they like and it may be in total opposition to what you think.

Sindi
03-15-2008, 08:54 PM
uh no to that I strongly disagree .......Do you really think that ? So you would be very close to someone who was a racist or someone like a terrorist whos anti American ? Persoanlly I respect myself more than that ....this is a little off topic since we are talking about the man who wants to be our president here ......

Optimist
03-15-2008, 08:59 PM
I think most people realize that your friends, mates, and yes, even mentors can say whatever they like and it may be in total opposition to what you think. I have had friends who were racist, lovers who were sexist, relatives whom I love dearly who are homophobic. These people have taught me a lot in life but we most certainly are not in agreement! How would you begin to judge a parishioner by what their reverend decides to pop off about? It's like judging a student by what their prof decides to pop off about or judge a child on what a parent pops off about.

EVERYBODY has their hangups. Except you of course. So absolutely, yes I have been friends with homophobes, racists, and women/men haters. Sometimes they listen to reason and sometimes they don't. Teachers/mentors are human beings who think whatever they like about a million subjects. You may agree on 999,999 but not that last one. It's up to you if you want to chuck them over that last one. Do what you feel!

I understand it's a matter of self esteem for you. In my mind it's a matter of pragmatism. Once I'd talk myself silly trying to change people's hangups, now I pick my battles and recognize sometimes I gotta take the good with the bad.

Optimist
03-15-2008, 09:13 PM
uh no to that I strongly disagree .......Do you really think that ? So you would be very close to someone who was a racist or someone like a terrorist whos anti American ? Persoanlly I respect myself more than that ....this is a little off topic since we are talking about the man who wants to be our president here ......

I missed two parts of your response. I would not be comfortable being close to a terrorist. Last time I looked Obama is a Senator not a terrorist and his Reverend is a religious leader not a terrorist. We definitely weren't talking about the man who wants to be our president. I was talking about the reality that teachers are just people and you'll never agree with everything they think.

jester214
03-15-2008, 09:24 PM
uh no to that I strongly disagree .......Do you really think that ? So you would be very close to someone who was a racist or someone like a terrorist whos anti American ? Persoanlly I respect myself more than that ....this is a little off topic since we are talking about the man who wants to be our president here ......

And who does Hillary hang around with, oh so upstanding people?? Like her Husband... I don't even know why I'm posting here... this deserves no credence...

I'm also curiousl about what this guy said that was racist?? Because Hillary's husband and staff members both made remarks about Obama's race...

Budai
03-15-2008, 10:06 PM
So you would be very close to someone who was a racist or someone like a terrorist whos anti American ? Persoanlly I respect myself more than that ....this is a little off topic since we are talking about the man who wants to be our president here ......
Um, our current President and his father (another President) before him have been close to the Bin Ladens of Saudi Arabia for over 2 decades. In fact--oh, never mind...::)

Sindi
03-15-2008, 11:00 PM
I think most people realize that your friends, mates, and yes, even mentors can say whatever they like and it may be in total opposition to what you think. I have had friends who were racist, lovers who were sexist, relatives whom I love dearly who are homophobic. These people have taught me a lot in life but we most certainly are not in agreement! How would you begin to judge a parishioner by what their reverend decides to pop off about? It's like judging a student by what their prof decides to pop off about or judge a child on what a parent pops off about.

EVERYBODY has their hangups. Except you of course. So absolutely, yes I have been friends with homophobes, racists, and women/men haters. Sometimes they listen to reason and sometimes they don't. Teachers/mentors are human beings who think whatever they like about a million subjects. You may agree on 999,999 but not that last one. It's up to you if you want to chuck them over that last one. Do what you feel!

I understand it's a matter of self esteem for you. In my mind it's a matter of pragmatism. Once I'd talk myself silly trying to change people's hangups, now I pick my battles and recognize sometimes I gotta take the good with the bad.


Well said , I completely see your point . I dont dislike Obama AT ALL , I do feel sick that Rev Wright feels this way and preaches about it to people who look up to him though . I think that if you chose to take a position of power you have to be very CLEAR as to what and who you take sides with . I dont really like any of the candidates all out , I was just wondering what everyone was thinking . Your first post came off very angry , this one was much better .

Sindi
03-15-2008, 11:02 PM
And who does Hillary hang around with, oh so upstanding people?? Like her Husband... I don't even know why I'm posting here... this deserves no credence...

I'm also curiousl about what this guy said that was racist?? Because Hillary's husband and staff members both made remarks about Obama's race...


I never said that anyone was better than the other . I am not slamming Obama and I am certainly not choosing him over Hilary either so I dont really know how to respond to this . I just think that Wright is not a good person and certainly not someone I want whispering in my presidents ear .

Mr Hyde
03-15-2008, 11:04 PM
My mom's church is led by a pastor who is mildly irritating and runs the church counter to how most of the congregation wants it run. He never says anything mildly questionable, but the congregation wants him gone, and they are reasonable people. If Jeremiah Wright led her church, he'd be tarred and feathered.

Obama has joined, participated in, and financially supported a church led by Jeremiah Wright. He was married by this man, had his kids baptized by him, and has admitted to receiving counsel from him.

That has GOT to make you question his judgment. I know a lot of people like Obama...he's hard not to like...but if Jeremiah Wright is the kind of man that Obama chooses to associate himself with, then his judgment has to be called into question. If you don't, you're putting on blinders.

Sindi
03-15-2008, 11:05 PM
Um, our current President and his father (another President) before him have been close to the Bin Ladens of Saudi Arabia for over 2 decades. In fact--oh, never mind...::)


Yeah and they (bush family) are awful people who have used our country to further their own needs , thus in my opinion bringing it to the point of ruin . From what I understand about the Bin Laden family is that they are mostly decent citizens and have nothing to do with Osama so ......yeah .

Sindi
03-15-2008, 11:08 PM
My mom's church is led by a pastor who is mildly irritating and runs the church counter to how most of the congregation wants it run. He never says anything mildly questionable, but the congregation wants him gone, and they are reasonable people. If Jeremiah Wright led her church, he'd be tarred and feathered.

Obama has joined, participated in, and financially supported a church led by Jeremiah Wright. He was married by this man, had his kids baptized by him, and has admitted to receiving counsel from him.

That has GOT to make you question his judgment. I know a lot of people like Obama...he's hard not to like...but if Jeremiah Wright is the kind of man that Obama chooses to associate himself with, then his judgment has to be called into question. If you don't, you're putting on blinders.

OMG for a moment I thought I was completely alone in this thought . I like that Obama is young and idealistic , reminds me of both the Kennedy brothers . Two great men who speeches can bring me to tears . I like Hillary because she reminds us of the Clinton years and say what you want about him now but things were good during his rein . McCain scares me , he actually said that this war going on right now could (ahem , would) go on for 50 more yrs ..........so now I feel like I dont have anyone to vote for , again :'(

Dottie Rebel
03-16-2008, 12:39 AM
Admittedly, I'm a little out of the loop right now, but I just googled ol' Wright and so far I'm down with everything I'm seeing except maybe the association with shyster Farrakhan...?

BrodieLux
03-16-2008, 02:15 AM
From what I understand, Rev. Wright said that The Man -- ie. America -- makes life hard for the black man, jails the black man, etc etc. Well, I think he's right. It's true black people get screwed here, and yes, damn The Man for that.

As Rolling Stone wrote about Obama: "Obama's life story is a splicing of two different roles, and two different ways of thinking about America's. One is that of the consummate insider, someone who has been raised believing that he will help to lead America, who believes in this country's capacity for acts of outstanding virtue. The other is that of a black man who feels very deeply that this country's exercise of its great inherited wealth and power has been grossly unjust. This tension runs through his life; Obama is at once an insider and an outsider, a bomb thrower and the class president. "I'm somebody who believes in this country and its institutions," he tells me. "But I often think they're broken."

Why should Obama take heat from listening to a man who points out that this country is flawed? I'd rather have a leader who wants to fix our problems than a leader who wants to pretend there aren't any.

Secondly, my understanding is Rev. Wright condemned Israel for oppressing the Palestinians. It's so fucking annoying that anytime anyone criticizes Israel's foreign policy, its conflated with being antiSemitic. Well that's bullshit. I think the Rev. is correct on both counts.

And btw, before anybody goes at me about the Jew comment, my family is Jewish.

Lets have a look at what Rev. Wright's about. Here's an excerpt from the Rolling Stone article:

"The Trinity United Church of Christ, the church that Barack Obama attends in Chicago, is at once vast and unprepossessing, a big structure a couple of blocks from the projects, in the long open sore of a ghetto on the city's far South Side. The church is a leftover vision from the Sixties of what a black nationalist future might look like. There's the testifying fervor of the black church, the Afrocentric Bible readings, even the odd dashiki. And there is the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, a sprawling, profane bear of a preacher, a kind of black ministerial institution, with his own radio shows and guest preaching gigs across the country. Wright takes the pulpit here one Sunday and solemnly, sonorously declares that he will recite 10 essential facts about the United States. 'Fact number one: We've got more black men in prison than there are in college,' he intones. 'Fact number two: Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!' There is thumping applause; Wright has a cadence and power that make Obama sound like John Kerry. Now the reverend begins to preach. 'We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional KILLERS. ... We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God. ... We conducted radiation experiments on our own people. ... We care nothing about human life if the ends justify the means!" The crowd whoops and amens as Wright builds to his climax: 'And. And. And! GAWD! Has GOT! To be SICK! OF THIS SHIT!"

The full Rolling Stone story, called The Radical Roots of Barack Obama, is here (http://www. rollingstone.com/politics/story/13390609/campaign_08_the_radical_roots_of_barack_obama):

BrodieLux
03-16-2008, 03:07 AM
Also, I think it's a major shame that people seem to want Obama to distance himself from his Muslim background (his birth father was Muslim). Anyone who equates Islam with terrorism is painfully ignorant, and that's just so sad.

Mr Hyde
03-16-2008, 07:10 AM
Brodie, Wright has said much more that should disturb any reasonable person...

On the US govt-
"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people."

"The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color."

He has also said that the US deserves what happened on 9/11 because of our history of the treatment of black people.

He also visited Libya with Louis Farrakhan in the 80s when Moammar Khadafy was doing his lunatic fringe thing.

He has said US support for Israel is a form of white racism.

He routinely rails against "rich white men" that control the country and whose primary goal is to keep black America down.

There is much more than a pastor who is fighting against what he perceives as institutional racism. This is a nut job who thinks EVERYTHING is about race.

Barack Obama wrote a book based on one of this man's sermons.

If you don't question his judgment on this, then you're putting on blinders.

I'm not even saying you should drop your support, but at least look more deeply into the whole thing before you dismiss it.

Hello_Kitty27
03-16-2008, 10:15 AM
You should have seen the church's "About Us" page before they changed it. Itwas horrific. It's somewhat better now, although I'm positive the congregation's thoughts and feelings have not changed. They've only made themselves to appear more "politically correct"

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

I've been irritated about this for about a year. I've been even more horrified that no one in the media has seemed to care. Why now? The sermon clips that are springing up are tame compared to a year ago.

And what's disgusting to me is that Mr Obama has said in the past how important Mr Wright is to him, a mentor, etc. Only recently has he tried to part from him a bit. It's BS.

TarsTone
03-16-2008, 10:56 AM
From what I understand, Rev. Wright said that The Man -- ie. America -- makes life hard for the black man, jails the black man, etc etc. Well, I think he's right. It's true black people get screwed here, and yes, damn The Man for that.
I'm sorry. Is this 1958? Because the calendar on my laptop tells me that was about 50 years ago. Reading some of the internet rhetoric it gets a little confusing at times.

What you have described is a gross oversimplification of Wright's statements, most of which range from irrational to downright insane.

jester214
03-16-2008, 11:51 AM
I never said that anyone was better than the other . I am not slamming Obama and I am certainly not choosing him over Hilary either so I dont really know how to respond to this . I just think that Wright is not a good person and certainly not someone I want whispering in my presidents ear .

"Hilary should step her game up now , if she really wants the chance to run"

"It really says alot about Obama who I kinda liked before this"

jester214
03-16-2008, 12:01 PM
Brodie, Wright has said much more that should disturb any reasonable person...

On the US govt-
"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people."

"The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color."

He has also said that the US deserves what happened on 9/11 because of our history of the treatment of black people.

He also visited Libya with Louis Farrakhan in the 80s when Moammar Khadafy was doing his lunatic fringe thing.

He has said US support for Israel is a form of white racism.

He routinely rails against "rich white men" that control the country and whose primary goal is to keep black America down.

There is much more than a pastor who is fighting against what he perceives as institutional racism. This is a nut job who thinks EVERYTHING is about race.

Barack Obama wrote a book based on one of this man's sermons.

If you don't question his judgment on this, then you're putting on blinders.

I'm not even saying you should drop your support, but at least look more deeply into the whole thing before you dismiss it.

Aside from the HIV comment and the associate with Farrakhan, I'm not really sure what is so bad in those statments... Sure I disagree with most of them, but those are some pretty common sentiments in certain circles...

He's nuts because he thinks everything is about race?? Race is a huge issue in our country, it impacts almost everything... It's been one of the hottest topics in the current presidential race... If you can't see that, the YOU'RE putting blinders on...

The man was a spiritual leader who Obama obviously does not agree with on multiple points...

I know a pastor, not mine but at a church I attended once or twice with a friend, apparently everyone liked him, he'd been there forever gave lots of people solid counsel did lots of good work... Turned out the guy used to molest kids a long time ago, I beleive my friend told me he's now in prison... People can have more than one side, and that is especially true with a religious leader...

Dottie Rebel
03-16-2008, 12:13 PM
Thanks for the Wiki on Wright, Hyde.

I gotta say, Wright is far from the first person to suggest we have been lied to about AIDS, 9/11, and Israel and he is certainly not the only person who believes that the CIA trafficks drugs or that we imprison more of our population than any other industrialized nation.

Hmmm...cally me kooky, but...

Sindi
03-16-2008, 02:26 PM
"Hilary should step her game up now , if she really wants the chance to run"

"It really says alot about Obama who I kinda liked before this"


LMAO , why do you think putting my quotes up is making a point ?? Obama is not looking so good in the press and from I understand Hil was losing to him , there fore if she wants to win "strike while the iron is hot" so to speak ....that says NOTHING about my opinions as to whom I prefer .

Who you chose to associate with does say alot about you .

Can I just say that I do not like ANY of candidates NOW or before this crap started ......so anyone attacking me personally is wasting time . My whole point was that the way Rev Wright feels makes me sad . I am one of those white people that really truly does not feel racist , I was raised that way and I dont see color until its thrown in to my face . I remember when Dirty Dancing came out and my mom mentioned aout them characters being Jewish and I was like :O HOW do you know ??? I had not idea that being Jewish may give you certain characteristic ......I thought the Guatemalan family that moved n across the street when I was 5 was black , I still dont care ......I have a lovely Bosnian girl over my house today using the computer , I helped her father out ....the only reason I know what nationality they are is because they felt the need to tell me .....I dont care , it doesnt matter .

My point is that when people are angry like Rev Wright it makes me sad , he is very angry and most of what I heard I know in my heart to be false . Sometimes for people who are angry its easier to blame other people and never look at yourself , sometime the simplest explanation is the right one .


I know there are alot of you that will read that and think I am full of crap but thats not really my problem and its why I dont hang out with Angry people .

BrodieLux
03-16-2008, 02:50 PM
I hadn't heard Wright's HIV comment, and it does sound silly. But then again, he could be right. Afterall, the U.S. government really *did* do that to black people with syphilis, aka the Tuskegee Experiment.

I don't want to believe that 9/11 was an inside job, but it's not that big a stretch if it's true. FDR knew about Pearl Harbor and let it happen. And I saw with my own eyes how the Bush administration siezed upon 9/11 as an opportunity to increase its domestic spying power, launch two wars and sieze Iraqi oil. (See Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shock_Doctrine))


I think it's good that Obama lends an ear to people concerned about the potentially malicious implications of power. I'm sick of leaders who embody the realization of that potential.

Also, I don't think it's fair to say that because Obama is close to this pastor, he necessarily holds the same views. It would be ridiculous if that logic were applied to me. My father, for example, believes that America and Israel should nuke Iran and Palestine. Well, I find that completely unacceptable, a disgusting inability to acknowledge the humanity of others. But he's still my dad, and I love him, and I take life advice from him.

jester214
03-16-2008, 02:59 PM
It really says alot about Obama who I kinda liked before this.


Can I just say that I do not like ANY of candidates NOW or before this crap started ......

I think that pretty much sums it up for me... If you don't like any of the candidates (hah) and you aren't trying to bash Obama or support Hillary ::), then why in the hell did you post this?

If it was really for social and moral reasons, then why did you even mention this guys connection to Obama?? Why not just talk about him...

Sindi
03-16-2008, 03:47 PM
I think that pretty much sums it up for me... If you don't like any of the candidates (hah) and you aren't trying to bash Obama or support Hillary ::), then why in the hell did you post this?

If it was really for social and moral reasons, then why did you even mention this guys connection to Obama?? Why not just talk about him...


Lol , I am not going to explain something so simple to you , maybe you want to explain why you feel the need to attack me ? Actually dont because I find you abrasive and I dont want to talk to you , k ? Thanks oxox

Sindi
03-16-2008, 03:56 PM
I hadn't heard Wright's HIV comment, and it does sound silly. But then again, he could be right. Afterall, the U.S. government really *did* do that to black people with syphilis, aka the Tuskegee Experiment.

I don't want to believe that 9/11 was an inside job, but it's not that big a stretch if it's true. FDR knew about Pearl Harbor and let it happen. And I saw with my own eyes how the Bush administration siezed upon 9/11 as an opportunity to increase its domestic spying power, launch two wars and sieze Iraqi oil. (See Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shock_Doctrine))


I think it's good that Obama lends an ear to people concerned about the potentially malicious implications of power. I'm sick of leaders who embody the realization of that potential.

Also, I don't think it's fair to say that because Obama is close to this pastor, he necessarily holds the same views. It would be ridiculous if that logic were applied to me. My father, for example, believes that America and Israel should nuke Iran and Palestine. Well, I find that completely unacceptable, a disgusting inability to acknowledge the humanity of others. But he's still my dad, and I love him, and I take life advice from him.


I just wanted to mention something that I found senseless regarding the whole 9/11 thing . I have considered the possibility that 9/11 was a inside job by our government that went airy , its awful to think about but Bush seems just cold enough to do it . I do think that IF they (us government) did that , that it went further than they wanted , ya know ? I dont know why I feel that way , I just do . What bothered me about Wrights sermon on 9/11 was that he seemed to be saying that it was our comeuppance , like we had it coming because of what we have done to other nations .....up until vietnam I dont really that our country got unnerssely involved in wars ....I dont know alot aout that Tuskegee thing BUT I dont know that our government has done things similar to white people also .....I am going to have to google the incident that I am referring too , I am sorry to start something that I cant remember the details too ......All governments are cruel and calculating , ya know ? I dont think that we are any worse that other countries in those ways ......Jails in other countries dont allow the inmates to use Internet or get married .....Yeah the world can suck and I have thought about leaving the US , especially during Bush's rein BUT uponing researching the quality of life in even say Ireland I am glad to live where i do ....For now anyways

Thump
03-16-2008, 09:28 PM
Secondly, my understanding is Rev. Wright condemned Israel for oppressing the Palestinians. It's so fucking annoying that anytime anyone criticizes Israel's foreign policy, its conflated with being antiSemitic. Well that's bullshit. I think the Rev. is correct on both counts.

And btw, before anybody goes at me about the Jew comment, my family is Jewish.



Your a Disgrace to your family and Jewish people!!!
Why not try and walk down the streets of Afghanistan sporting a star of David or a crucifix, and then spout off about Israels foreign policy. It's because of Israel their are not more vile terrorist walking this earth...Israel has been fighting those shitbaggers for decades ridding this world of the militant Islamic camel sodimizer.


arab nations
Algeria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algeria)
Bahrain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahrain)
Comoros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comoros)
Djibouti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djibouti)
Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt)
Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq)
Jordan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan)
Kuwait (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuwait)
Lebanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon)

Libya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya)
Mauritania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania)
Morocco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco)
Oman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oman)
Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority)
Qatar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar)
Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)
Somalia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia)
Sudan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan)
Syria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria)
Tunisia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisia)
United Arab Emirates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_Emirates)
Western Sahara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Sahara)
Yemen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemen)

Jewish Nations:
Israel


I think the Jews deserve to have a land of their own. Considering they fought for it....beat the brown turds so bad they fled, but yet let the those booger picking morons live on Israeli soil. What other religion does not have a homeland.

Oh and as far as the original post goes....if the us elects osoma bama it'll be the greatest proverbial bitch slap the US will ever receive.

The US hasn't emotionally recovered from 9/11, and here we are actually letting a camel jockey in a suit run for Pres. what kind of a message does that send to the arabs who already celebrate in the streets when US men and women die on the front lines....Bush may be portrayed by the media as being stupid, but don't think for one minutes he's the one making all the calls....do you really think the US is run by one person?

Come on Mrs. Clinton voted yes for war too.

I'd vote for Dr. sues for president before I would osama bama

I wish Mit Romney was still running...gutless bastard

jester214
03-16-2008, 09:30 PM
Sindi your last two posts are hilarious... I need to stop looking at this thread but it's so addictive...

It's simple?? What's simple is that you just keep contradicting yourself and instead of answering you turn it around on me...

Trust me, this isn't "attacking"...

You are so cute, my niece says "k? thanks" too, she's 11.

Melonie
03-18-2008, 06:10 PM
(snip)"An Elegant Farce
Obama’s ‘conversation’ about moral equivalence.

By Victor Davis Hanson

Barack Obama’s Tuesday sermon was a well-crafted, well-delivered, postmodern review of race that had little to do with the poor judgment revealed in Obama’s relationship with the hateful Rev. Wright, much less the damage that he does both to African Americans and to the country in general.

Obama chose not to review what Wright, now deemed the “occasionally fierce critic.” said in detail, condemn it unequivocally, apologize, and then resign from such a Sunday venue of intolerance — the now accustomed American remedy to racism in the public realm that we saw in the Imus and other recent controversies.

Instead, to Obama, the postmodernist, context is everything. We all have eccentric and flamboyant pastors like Wright with whom we disagree. And words, in his case, don’t quite mean what we think; unspoken intent and angst, not voiced hatred, are what matters more.

Rather than account for his relationship with a hate-monger, Obama will enlighten you, as your teacher, why you are either confused or too ill-intended to ask him to disassociate himself from Wright.

The Obama apologia was a “conversation” about moral equivalence. So the Wright hatred must be contextualized and understood in several ways that only the unusually gifted Obama can instruct us about:

1) The good that Rev. Wright and Trinity Church did far outweighs his controversial comments, which were taken out of context as “snippets” and aired in the “endless loop” on conservative outlets.

2) We are all at times racists and the uniquely qualified Obama is our valuable mirror of that ugliness: Wright may say things like “God damn America” or “Dirty Word” Israel or “Clarence Colon,” but then it must be balanced by other truths like Obama’s own grandmother who also expresses fear of black males (his grandmother’s private angst is thus of the same magnitude as Wright’s outbursts broadcast to tens of thousands).

3) We don’t understand Wright’s history and personal narrative. But as someone who grew up in the hate-filled and racist 1960s, it was understandable that he was bound to mature into his present angry anti-American, anti-Israel, anti-white mentality. (As if all blacks did?)

4) Indeed, Wright does nothing that much different from radio-talk show hosts and those of the Reagan Coalition who thrive on racial resentments. But whereas Wright has cause as a victim, his counterparts are opportunists who play on white fears.

5) And if we wish to continue to express worries about Obama’s past relationships with Wright — never delineated, never explained in detail — in trite and mean-spirited ways such as replaying the Wright tapes, then we have lost a rare opportunity to follow Obama into a post-racial America.

6) We, both black and white alike, are victims, victims of an insensitive system, a shapeless, anonymous “it” that brings out the worst in all of us — but it will at last end with an Obama candidacy.

The message? Some of us are never quite responsible for what we say. And Obama has no responsibility to explain the inexplicable of how he closely tied himself to someone of such repugnant and racist views. We will never hear “It’s time for Rev. Wright and me to part our separate ways, and here’s why.”

Instead, the entire Wright controversy evolved due to America’s failure to understand the Wright’s past and the present status of race. No doubt, the next time some public figure utters a racist comment — and it will happen — we will then expect to hear about context that explains and excuses such an apparent hurtful outburst.

Obama is right about one thing: We are losing yet another opportunity to talk honestly about race, to hold all Americans to the same standards of public ethics and morality, and to emphasize that no one gets a pass peddling vulgar racism, or enabling it by failing to disassociate himself from its source — not Rev. Wright, not even the eloquent, but now vapid, Barack Obama."(snip)

leilanicandy
03-18-2008, 07:59 PM
uh no to that I strongly disagree .......Do you really think that ? So you would be very close to someone who was a racist or someone like a terrorist whos anti American ? Persoanlly I respect myself more than that ....this is a little off topic since we are talking about the man who wants to be our president here ......


*My statement is not to attack you hun. I just want to respond to your statement.*


If we all think like that way! Than anyone that hangs arounds a exotic dancer. Is bad, very bad. They are all sinners! Someone get the Holy water. Exotic dancers in a whole has such bad reputation. Anyone that is friends with one. Is just bad!

Obama is change. But if you like, just follow behind the traditional way! It seems America is already reaping what they sow with Bush. We need a president that can talk to all! That can make and cut deals, excute deals, and do it. With the intention that it is best for this country. We dont have much time. We can't afford to have another Bush! Unless America think being poor, is the new black!

Melonie
03-18-2008, 08:17 PM
We need a president that can talk to all! That can make and cut deals, excute deals, and do it.

as in cutting a deal with the Iranians and Syrians that the US will withdraw support from Israel and withdraw US troops from Iraq in exchange for a promise that islamic terrorists won't attack America again ?

as in cutting a deal with the Chinese that the US will withdraw support from Taiwan in exchange for the Chinese supporting the exchange rate of the US dollar so that a gallon of gas doesn't cost $5 by the end of the year ?

arguably, both such potential deals would have the full support of Rev. Wright !



(snip)"While Barack Obama tries to be on both sides of the Israel/Palestine conflict, one can't help but wonder how much influence his Trinity United Church of Christ Pastor Rev. Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright's radical pro-Palestinian teachings had on Obama over the years.

Wright wrote here in his July 2005 church newsletter The Trumpet:

The Israelis have illegally occupied Palestinian territories for almost 40 years now. It took a divestment campaign to wake the business community up concerning the South Africa issue. Divestment has now hit the table again as a strategy to wake the business community up and to wake Americans up concerning the injustice and the racism under which the Palestinians have lived because of Zionism."(snip)

leilanicandy
03-18-2008, 09:27 PM
as in cutting a deal with the Iranians and Syrians that the US will withdraw support from Israel and withdraw US troops from Iraq in exchange for a promise that islamic terrorists won't attack America again ?

as in cutting a deal with the Chinese that the US will withdraw support from Taiwan in exchange for the Chinese supporting the exchange rate of the US dollar so that a gallon of gas doesn't cost $5 by the end of the year ?

arguably, both such potential deals would have the full support of Rev. Wright !

http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illinoisreview/2008/02/skeptical-jews.html

(snip)"While Barack Obama tries to be on both sides of the Israel/Palestine conflict, one can't help but wonder how much influence his Trinity United Church of Christ Pastor Rev. Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright's radical pro-Palestinian teachings had on Obama over the years.

Wright wrote here in his July 2005 church newsletter The Trumpet:

The Israelis have illegally occupied Palestinian territories for almost 40 years now. It took a divestment campaign to wake the business community up concerning the South Africa issue. Divestment has now hit the table again as a strategy to wake the business community up and to wake Americans up concerning the injustice and the racism under which the Palestinians have lived because of Zionism."(snip)

Well if we look at our fav terriost and Bush. I have to wonder if Bush let him get away! Being they was good friends. I guess we can be weary about how much influnece a person has on one. Why did we go to war with Saddam? It was bush old time buddy Bin. That succeded with the plan. To attack innocent people, and destroy thier life.

Do you really think Obama lets other control is mind? Who really knows what is going on? Well who ever dose, sure is not speaking! America will only be free as long as we think it so!

I just think whoever run this country next term. Has a lot of work on his/her plate. Other wise this country is in for a rude awakening.

jester214
03-18-2008, 11:17 PM
What are you talking about ^^^??

Melonie
03-19-2008, 01:27 PM
Well if we look at our fav terriost and Bush. I have to wonder if Bush let him get away! Being they was good friends. I guess we can be weary about how much influnece a person has on one. Why did we go to war with Saddam? It was bush old time buddy Bin.

I believe she is referring to a factually incorrect but well publicized supposed historical connection existing between Osama Bin Laden and Bush #1. Actually Bush #1 and various US businesses did work with the Bin Laden construction company, which was a HUGE business concern in the middle east. If I remember the details right, there were something like 50 different 'cousins' named Bin Laden ... some were directly involved with the construction business, others were uninvolved, and the 'black sheep' of the family (who was not involved with the business other than to collect 'family member dividends') is named Osama.

Also if I remember correctly, once the name of Osama Bin Laden emerged after the 9/11 attacks, Bush #2 chose to eliminate the potential conflict of interest of using the Bin Laden construction firm to provide construction support to the US invasion of Afghanistan and later Iraq. As a result, that business then went to US companies Flour Daniel, Halliburton, etc. instead.

Again if I remember correctly, it was the 'fair and balanced' Michael Moore who first attempted to draw a connection between Osama Bin Laden and the Bush family.



I just think whoever run this country next term. Has a lot of work on his/her plate. Other wise this country is in for a rude awakening.

you're certainly correct on that count ... ESPECIALLY if Barack Obama winds up in the Oval Office !

Circling back to the topic of this thread, it is now becoming increasingly apparent that Barack Obama has never been thoroughly 'vetted' as a potential presidential candidate. It is also becoming increasingly apparent that the more information which comes to light about Obama's personal associations with individuals like the racist Reverend Wright, terror bomber William Ayers, indibted lobbyist Tony Rezko, millionaire middle east money launderer Rashid Khaildi etc., the less support Barack Obama is receiving from outside of the black community.

However, mainstream media is now being taken to task about their seemingly deliberate avoidance of these issues regarding Obama's previous associations with 'controversial' figures. This is probably the result of Hilary campaigh desparation as her back room strategists realize that she's so far behind in the delegate count that she now has essentially no chance of carrying the convention directly. Thus it is probably Hilary's campaign agents who are now encouraging press coverage of such issues as Obama's controversial personal associations. Also, it is probably Hilary's campaign agents who are now encouraging press coverage of Obama's 'electibility' problem a.k.a. 'Archie Bunker' democratic middle class voters figuring out that Obama tax / social welfare benefit policies will hurt them more than help them, democratic Jewish voters questioning Obama's actual commitment to continued US alliance / support with Israel, etc.

Hilary's campaign strategists are undoubtedly able to perform simple math ... i.e. that 99% of the black democratic vote minus 50% of the (mostly white) democratic middle class vote minus 95% of the democratic Jewish vote equals a republican president ! This is particularly the case in midwestern states, northeast states etc. that have comparatively fewer black residents and comparatively more (predominantly white) middle class workers, where a boycott by black voters re McCain vs Hilary would be far less harmful to the chances of a democratic victory than middle class workers 'jumping the fence' re McCain versus Obama. Thus the closer the convention and actual election approach, the more the de-facto 'irrelevance' of American black voters will be acknowledged, and the more publicized Obama's 'electibility' problem will likely become.



(snip)"How to turn one's blackness to advantage?

The answer is that one "bargains." Bargaining is a mask that blacks can wear in the American mainstream, one that enables them to put whites at their ease. This mask diffuses the anxiety that goes along with being white in a multiracial society. Bargainers make the subliminal promise to whites not to shame them with America's history of racism, on the condition that they will not hold the bargainer's race against him. And whites love this bargain -- and feel affection for the bargainer -- because it gives them racial innocence in a society where whites live under constant threat of being stigmatized as racist. So the bargainer presents himself as an opportunity for whites to experience racial innocence.

This is how Mr. Obama has turned his blackness into his great political advantage, and also into a kind of personal charisma. Bargainers are conduits of white innocence, and they are as popular as the need for white innocence is strong. Mr. Obama's extraordinary dash to the forefront of American politics is less a measure of the man than of the hunger in white America for racial innocence.

His actual policy positions are little more than Democratic Party boilerplate and hardly a tick different from Hillary's positions. He espouses no galvanizing political idea. He is unable to say what he means by "change" or "hope" or "the future." And he has failed to say how he would actually be a "unifier." By the evidence of his slight political record (130 "present" votes in the Illinois state legislature, little achievement in the U.S. Senate) Barack Obama stacks up as something of a mediocrity. None of this matters much.

Race helps Mr. Obama in another way -- it lifts his political campaign to the level of allegory, making it the stuff of a far higher drama than budget deficits and education reform. His dark skin, with its powerful evocations of America's tortured racial past, frames the political contest as a morality play. Will his victory mean America's redemption from its racist past? Will his defeat show an America morally unevolved? Is his campaign a story of black overcoming, an echo of the civil rights movement? Or is it a passing-of-the-torch story, of one generation displacing another?

Because he is black, there is a sense that profound questions stand to be resolved in the unfolding of his political destiny. And, as the Clintons have discovered, it is hard in the real world to run against a candidate of destiny. For many Americans -- black and white -- Barack Obama is simply too good (and too rare) an opportunity to pass up. For whites, here is the opportunity to document their deliverance from the shames of their forbearers. And for blacks, here is the chance to document the end of inferiority. So the Clintons have found themselves running more against America's very highest possibilities than against a man. And the press, normally happy to dispel every political pretension, has all but quivered before Mr. Obama. They, too, have feared being on the wrong side of destiny.

And yet, in the end, Barack Obama's candidacy is not qualitatively different from Al Sharpton's or Jesse Jackson's. Like these more irascible of his forbearers, Mr. Obama's run at the presidency is based more on the manipulation of white guilt than on substance. Messrs. Sharpton and Jackson were "challengers," not bargainers. They intimidated whites and demanded, in the name of historical justice, that they be brought forward. Mr. Obama flatters whites, grants them racial innocence, and hopes to ascend on the back of their gratitude. Two sides of the same coin.

But bargainers have an Achilles heel. They succeed as conduits of white innocence only as long as they are largely invisible as complex human beings. They hope to become icons that can be identified with rather than seen, and their individual complexity gets in the way of this. So bargainers are always laboring to stay invisible. (We don't know the real politics or convictions of Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey, bargainers all.) Mr. Obama has said of himself, "I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views . . ." And so, human visibility is Mr. Obama's Achilles heel. If we see the real man, his contradictions and bents of character, he will be ruined as an icon, as a "blank screen."

Thus, nothing could be more dangerous to Mr. Obama's political aspirations than the revelation that he, the son of a white woman, sat Sunday after Sunday -- for 20 years -- in an Afrocentric, black nationalist church in which his own mother, not to mention other whites, could never feel comfortable. His pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, is a challenger who goes far past Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson in his anti-American outrage ("God damn America").

How does one "transcend" race in this church? The fact is that Barack Obama has fellow-traveled with a hate-filled, anti-American black nationalism all his adult life, failing to stand and challenge an ideology that would have no place for his own mother. And what portent of presidential judgment is it to have exposed his two daughters for their entire lives to what is, at the very least, a subtext of anti-white vitriol?

What could he have been thinking? Of course he wasn't thinking. He was driven by insecurity, by a need to "be black" despite his biracial background. And so fellow-traveling with a little race hatred seemed a small price to pay for a more secure racial identity."(snip)

~

BrodieLux
03-19-2008, 03:25 PM
I think it's great we have so many different viewpoints on this board. Really interesting. I thought the National Review piece was well written but condescending, and considering its conservative audience, and that the topic at hand was a Dem, I'm not really surprised.

The whole debate over Israel is its own thread. I've been to Israel. I think Israel is awesome, and I do think the idea of a Jewish homeland is good, and I'm not anti-Israel. I think it has a right to defend itself. I don't think it has a right to oppress Palestinians, however.

Melonie
03-19-2008, 06:12 PM
^^^ I agree that Obama's position re Israel is indeed a topic that bears further discussion ... and one that could ultimately tip Obama's 'apple cart' to a precarious angle as the convention draws near. There are undoubtedly a few million middle eastern muslims, many of them well armed and well financed, who disagree with your position and view Israel as Jihad-bait. On the other hand, there are hundreds of thousands of Jews / Israelis who have a big stake in the US economy, and who therefore have a (disproportionately) powerful hand in American politics and policy. Obama potentially represents a new focal point where that conflict is concerned, for better or worse.

To drive the point home, I was just re-watching 'Charlie Wilson's War' a couple of days ago ... and was struck by one exchange of dialog ...

(snip)" In a conversation with one of his Congressional cronies Wilson says that he wants to make sure that there won't
be Jewish opposition to his plans. The other guy asks "how many Jews are there in your district, Charlie?" Charlie replies "Oh, about seven...but most of my campaign contributions come from Jews who live outside my district" BAM...the truth about who actually owns many members of the U.S. Congress!! Short but sweet...just a few brief lines, but I can't believe that Hollywood honchos allowed it to remain in the movie. That's not something they want the majority of Americans to be aware of. "(snip) from

Eric Stoner
04-29-2008, 11:41 AM
It took him long enough but Obama has FINALLY cut all ties to Wright.
Commenting today on Wright's "spectacle" at the National Press Club; it finally dawned on Obama that Wright had been dissing HIM since his appearance with Moyers. Maybe Obama actaully READ what Wright said and how it was insulting to HIM. That Wright belittled him and claimed that any criticism of him was an "attack on the Black Church".

This nut has been an albatross around Obama's neck for over a month. More than anything else, it helped Hillary crawl out of the gutter and get back in the race. As much as he could, Obama stayed loyal to his "nutty uncle" (or surrogate father) until he no longer could. I hope it's not too late.

bem401
04-30-2008, 06:18 AM
Too little, too late, as least as far as the general election is concerned.

He either agrees with guy or showed an inexcusable lack of judgement by associating with him. He's painted himself into a corner.

Eric Stoner
04-30-2008, 09:32 AM
Too little, too late, as least as far as the general election is concerned.

He either agrees with guy or showed an inexcusable lack of judgement by associating with him. He's painted himself into a corner.

It's certainly NOT going to help him BUT it's just the start of May. The election is in November. Six months is a long time in politics. Remember how Obama's admitted past drug use faded out as an issue ?

TheLioness
05-01-2008, 10:23 AM
I can see how hard it would be to cut ties with someone that you have been close to for so long. It took a lot of courage for him to do that in my opinion. He has said over and over that he does not agree with everything that wright believes in. I have no clue who I will be voting for, as I think they're all liars, but I can't really hold that against him.

I was discussing this the other day with a coworker who I view as a close friend. He is absolutely against Obama because of his association with wright. I explained the way I feel about it to him in this way:

Me: You strongly believe that hunting is perfectly ok and you participate in it, correct?
Him: Yes
Me: You know I absolutely hate it and would never participate in it, right?
Him: Yes
Me: We have very different opnions on a topic that is important to both of us. But we still remain friends, right?
Him: Yes
Me: How is that different?
Him: I guess it's not.

bem401
05-01-2008, 11:56 AM
I can see how hard it would be to cut ties with someone that you have been close to for so long. It took a lot of courage for him to do that in my opinion. He has said over and over that he does not agree with everything that wright believes in. I have no clue who I will be voting for, as I think they're all liars, but I can't really hold that against him.

I was discussing this the other day with a coworker who I view as a close friend. He is absolutely against Obama because of his association with wright. I explained the way I feel about it to him in this way:

Me: You strongly believe that hunting is perfectly ok and you participate in it, correct?
Him: Yes
Me: You know I absolutely hate it and would never participate in it, right?
Him: Yes
Me: We have very different opnions on a topic that is important to both of us. But we still remain friends, right?
Him: Yes
Me: How is that different?
Him: I guess it's not.

So I guess you'd have no problem if McCain were to be a member of a White Supremacist Church? Or hung out with Davis Duke? Opinions on hunting pale in comparison to preaching hatred against 2/3 of the country's people. And there is no way Obama didn't know Wright's true feelings either. He just didn't think he'd be held accountable for them.

Eric Stoner
05-01-2008, 12:41 PM
So I guess you'd have no problem if McCain were to be a member of a White Supremacist Church? Or hung out with Davis Duke? Opinions on hunting pale in comparison to preaching hatred against 2/3 of the country's people. And there is no way Obama didn't know Wright's true feelings either. He just think he'd be held accountable for them.

A lot of former "radicals" mainstreamed themselves. Why can't Obama ?

If we want to look at all of the former associates of all the candidates and hold them responsible for everything they've said and done then each of them has things to answer for.

According to today's N.Y.Times Obama was wary of letting Wright play too large a role or be too visible in his campaign. After asking Wright to give the invocation at the official announcement of his candidacy, Obama called Wright and rescinded the invitation. Wright was reportedly very hurt and he's been getting even ever since.

Melonie
05-01-2008, 02:29 PM
the Obama / Wright saga is actually a very healthy venting of a lot of American Black Power issues that up to now have usually been kept under wraps @!

bem401
05-01-2008, 03:44 PM
A lot of former "radicals" mainstreamed themselves. Why can't Obama ?

I just don't think he can do it by November.

Eric Stoner
05-02-2008, 08:58 AM
I just don't think he can do it by November.

If the "hits just keep on coming " from Iraq don't be so sure. As I've said, violence is creeping up as the creeps adjust to "The Surge". And then there's the political gift that keeps on giving : The Economy.

Here's another thing. What Catholic was expected to renounce his or her Church when Cardinal Spellman was blessing B-52's ? Or when Cardinal Law facilitated pedophilia and then skipped town to take a Vatican sinecure ? How many Mormons were expected to condemn their church and its leaders despite its shameful history of racism ? How about the current polygamy scandal ?
It's just Obama who deserves grief over what his FORMER Pastor has said ?

TarsTone
05-02-2008, 09:38 AM
Wright was not Obama's "former" pastor when he made those comments. He was a close associate who inspired Obama to write a book and was even a member of his campaign committee on race before shit hit the fan.

Your examples aren't exactly relevant. They are about general issues, not specific associations. It wouldn't be fair to criticize a Catholic candidate for going to church knowing that some priests have molested kids elsewhere. But it would be perfectly fair to confront him if he attended the sermons of and had a personal relationship with a pastor who openly defended child abuse. Even if he denounced the controversial comments he would still have to answer for his judgment. Obama's issue is more like the latter scenario. I really find it hard to accept that he didn't know Wright believes AIDS was invented by the government to kill black people. I think it's a very fair question to ask why he thought so highly of someone like him.

Eric Stoner
05-02-2008, 10:13 AM
Wright was not Obama's "former" pastor when he made those comments. He was a close associate who inspired Obama to write a book and was even a member of his campaign committee on race before shit hit the fan.

Your examples aren't exactly relevant. They are about general issues, not specific associations. It wouldn't be fair to criticize a Catholic candidate for going to church knowing that some priests have molested kids elsewhere. But it would be perfectly fair to confront him if he attended the sermons of and had a personal relationship with a pastor who openly defended child abuse. Even if he denounced the controversial comments he would still have to answer for his judgment. Obama's issue is more like the latter scenario. I really find it hard to accept that he didn't know Wright believes AIDS was invented by the government to kill black people. I think it's a very fair question to ask why he thought so highly of someone like him.

To date there is NO EVIDENCE that Obama was present during any of the taped ravings of Reverend Wright that took place at the church.

Wright's most recent remarks were arguably him getting even with Obama for supposedly throwing him under the bus. And at the time he uttered those he had "retired" and was his "FORMER" pastor.

TarsTone
05-02-2008, 11:28 AM
Eric, do you honestly believe that Obama knew this man for 20 years, was married by him, had his kids baptized by him, and wrote a book based on one of his sermons without knowing the extreme views he preaches about? Let's be real here.

I do agree that Wright is an egomaniac and attended that press conference knowing full well it could hurt Obama. But I don't think the questions being asked of Obama are unfair. If McCain had a personal relationship with some controversial race-baiting preacher, there is no way he would get off the hook no matter how much he disavowed the guy.

bem401
05-02-2008, 11:58 AM
^^^ Ditto that.