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View Full Version : Houston The End?-Supreme Ct. decision



laplover69
03-18-2008, 03:44 AM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5626484.html

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5627813.html >:(

BrunetteGoddess
03-18-2008, 06:38 AM
I just want to know: doesn't Houston have better things to do?

Katrine
03-18-2008, 01:43 PM
The massage parlors, aka whorehouses, will stay open and keep servicing men for cheap. Now they'll start shutting down the clubs within the city. Only a few outskirts clubs will make it, become inundated with girls, and the rest will flock to Austin. Business has been down here because the clubs have raised prices all around to keep up with the $5 tax.

This won't be the end, but its never going to be the same. :(

queendivaj
03-18-2008, 05:31 PM
Okay, I'm sad I just started stripping in Houston and feel like I need to be looking for a back up plan already. Oh, by the way hello to everyone, I love this site. So, what am I to do now with all this foolish laws/rules?

UltraFoxie
03-18-2008, 05:37 PM
Ya it has been seemingly going down down down, money is harder to come by lately :( I have been considering going outta town. Anyone else work in the Houston ARea?

Paris
03-18-2008, 05:41 PM
What? The US supreme court not taking anymore cases? It seems like they are refusing everything that comes across their desks. And important stuff too, not just SOB cases, but things like habeas corpus for Gitmo detainees, the rape case against KBR, the legal jurisdiction over blackwater employees working in Iraq etc. etc.

Oh, and I'm moving this to members where the topic is more relevant.

doc-catfish
03-18-2008, 05:48 PM
I suspect the club owners in Houston still have a number of cards to play before they throw in the towel, like say...

A. Become bikini clubs
B. Become private clubs and require membership
C. If all else fails, use some sort of publicity to rally political support for repeal or scaling back of the ordinance, or at least a grandfather clause. I mean, they can't contribute $5/head to women's shelters if they're closed or commercially ruined.

jester214
03-18-2008, 11:20 PM
What? The US supreme court not taking anymore cases? It seems like they are refusing everything that comes across their desks. And important stuff too, not just SOB cases, but things like habeas corpus for Gitmo detainees, the rape case against KBR, the legal jurisdiction over blackwater employees working in Iraq etc. etc.

Oh, and I'm moving this to members where the topic is more relevant.

Noise was getting loud about them having too much power... I think that's what is keeping them from taking cases... Although I though they addressed habeas corpus for gitmo detainees a year or so ago?

minnow
03-19-2008, 09:22 PM
[snip] Now they'll start shutting down the clubs within the city. [snip]

This won't be the end, but its never going to be the same. :(

Any Houston natives know which clubs will be "snared", and which clubs will be outside?? I'm guessing Treasures, MC, CBG, & other Galleria area clubs are in city limits, while STJC , and others around and North of IAH are outside city limits. Where exactly (key roads, etc) would line(s) be drawn?

WiseGuy_TX
03-20-2008, 05:41 AM
Where exactly (key roads, etc) would line(s) be drawn?...where the city limit lines are shown on a city map. http://www.houstontx.gov/zipcodes/zipcode.jpg

Katrine
03-20-2008, 07:26 AM
They can burn down Treasures as far as I'm concerned. Its one thing to have had a Michael's, where the girls were dirty, but at least they were ugly and skanky. Treasures created the hot extras girl which fucked everything up! LOL, I know, I know, it was brewing up all over the place.

UltraFoxie
03-20-2008, 04:04 PM
Sooo latex and full bottoms for eveyone? Hmmmph cause right now its not enforced

lildreamer316
03-21-2008, 06:03 AM
B. Become private clubs and require membership



WAIT WAIT wait.
You mean they aren't private already?
We've had it that way here for years.
This is the easiest solution. Simple simple simple. When guys come in from out of town, we just have a member sign them in. Which usually is our door guy, who is off-duty. There are other tricks,but I'm paranoid and am not going to list them here for prying eyes to see.
Only reason we ever get in trouble is because the front door girl may forget to actually tell them they have to be a member,etc.
It does cost them a membership fee up front ($20), but the guys usually pay it, and then after that it's only ( I think) $3 or $5 door charge when they come back (like if they are in town for a conference or somesuch). And one guy in a group can become a member, and sign in all the others in the group as guests. So the $20 split up between several ppl is not that much.

If this is really an option, it's the best one. Could someone educate me as to how this is an option in the whole scenario? If they become private, the city can't touch them? What's the law?

I'm concerned because my husband works for MC up here, and honestly, what affects the Houston club is going to affect this one too. The one up here just started building the upstairs...

Melonie
03-21-2008, 12:42 PM
^^^ New Jersey also had a similar 'private club' law (which culminated in BYOB topless clubs in a state where topless dancing plus liquor licenses was supposed to be illegal), but most states do not. The 'private club' angle also does not preclude the possibility of community regulations being imposed (as has happened in certain cities in NJ).

Actually, the US Supreme Court's refusal to hear the Houston case has implications for many other clubs in many other states as well. It was basically a confirmation that legal principles set forth in previous Supreme Court cases, legal principles that were again challenged by the Houston appeal, are now a matter of settled precedent. Among these are ...

- that communities do have a right to regulate strip clubs based on negative secondary effects

- that as long as a community still provides SOME alternate location for strip clubs to move to, they can pass zoning laws that force strip clubs to relocate from their current digs. (of course that alternate location may be miles away from prime locations, with associated reduction in customers thus earnings potential)

- that communities do have a right to enact customer contact / distance regulations

- that communities do have a right to enact dancer's licensing regulations


In regard to Houston in particular, I used to love to dance there many years ago. However, IMHO, the changes in contact levels that have occurred in recent years were allowed to go to extremes by both the clubowners and many dancers. IMHO this led to a situation where general knowledge of the Houston strip club sleaze factor became so high that it forced the hand of Houston politicians.

I agree with Katrine that the likely outcome will be the closing down of 3/4ths of the strip clubs currently within city limits - with conversion of the remaining 1/4 of clubs within city limits to bikini show club / sports bar clubs. Since these remaining clubs will now have little to sell other than the 'looks' of the dancers, it's very probable that these remaining clubs will become very picky in regard to the physical appearance of the dancers they hire / keep.

You're also likely to see the opening / relocation of clubs just beyond the city limits ... probably just north of the International Airport, just south of Hobby Airport, and something on the west side as well. Most probably the clubs just beyond the city limits will wind up being 'sleaze central', as they will need to provide some fairly strong incentive to convince guys to travel the extra 20-30 minutes necessary to get there versus a downtown bikini show club. All in all this will result in far less money being spent in Houston clubs overall.

WiseGuy_TX
03-21-2008, 12:48 PM
Sooo latex and full bottoms for eveyone? Hmmmph cause right now its not enforced...its enforced in several clubs to some degree but no one has surveyed all 50+ clubs.


If this is really an option, it's the best one. Could someone educate me as to how this is an option in the whole scenario? If they become private, the city can't touch them? What's the law?...being "private" doesn't mean they cant touch them. They can still be busted for prostitution(extras), drugs, etc... Being private might be a way to help skirt a public nudity issue. For example, Houstons anti-smoking ordinance prevents smoking in enclosed public places but allows smoking for an enclosed private function. Being a bikini bar and being private are ways to classify your business as something different than that defined by the wording in the SOB ordinance. Therefore, a bikini bar would not need to abide by the SOB rules. God forbid they rewrite the ordinance to try and kick out bikini bars.


I'm concerned because my husband works for MC up here, and honestly, what affects the Houston club is going to affect this one too. The one up here just started building the upstairs......babe, NC city ordinances and state laws govern MC NC. So what happens here legally wont matter up there. The issue of "secondary effects" was already ruled (although i dont know how they proved renton)and the recent Houston fight was over the "increased" 1500ft limit.

...imo.

EDIT: just read Mels post and i agree.

lildreamer316
03-23-2008, 03:23 PM
...babe, NC city ordinances and state laws govern MC NC. So what happens here legally wont matter up there. The issue of "secondary effects" was already ruled (although i dont know how they proved renton)and the recent Houston fight was over the "increased" 1500ft limit.

Woohoo. Guess I wasn't clear. What I meant was, what happens to a club in the company affects other clubs because of budgeting issues, management changeovers, how much money the corporation has to spend on each club,etc. For example - if the Houston MC is a large part of the MC's earnings portfolio, having it have to close down/move/change signifigant business practices that in turn seriously affect the profit margin of that club; will most certainly have a repercussion up here - where the company has just spend upwards of a million rennovating the upstairs of this branch. See what I mean? That's what I am concerned about.

Hope that was clearer.

Btw, I hope you didn't mean it that way, but I find your use of 'babe' in this quote a tad condesending. I am fully aware of the fact that the laws are not the same everywhere; I wasn't born yesterday. But I'm going to try to assume you weren't really wanting to be snide. Unfortunately, I'm 34 - probably not anyone's idea of 'babe'.

Mr Hyde
03-23-2008, 03:48 PM
What it might take is a deep pockets owner, a Joe Redner type, who is willing to lose money to escalate the fight...and by that, I mean a guy who can open a mega-club within whatever place the 1500 foot ordinance allows; make it as gaudy and colorful as possible, with neon and floodlights all over the sky; advertisements all over the city...billboards, bus benches, skywriting, etc; Hire a PR firm to make sure everyone knows that this mega club is there; Offer cheap dances, maybe even freebies on certain nights (and he'd have to pay the dancers a salary to keep them); advertise the crap out of the free dance nights, and call them "First Amendment Nights"; Hire private investigators to dig into the personal lives of anyone and everyone involved in crafting and enforcing the ordinances, and make any and all indiscretions public; instruct your dancers to give the most high contact dances possible, and be willing to bail them out and pay all court costs if any are arrested....and finally, advertise the club all over the country and prominently proclaim Houston as the strip club mecca of the country.

All with the goal of forcing the city to negotiate to ditch the laws...something like "OK you passed your laws...now look what it's got you...the worst, most over the top strip club in the world. I'll back off if you back off."

WiseGuy_TX
03-23-2008, 05:58 PM
...well, if the bikini bar concept is on, it would be a hoot if they opened a few "latex/full bottoms bikini bars" (looking like a regular bar but advertised as a "Gentlemen's Club") near schools, churches, day care centers, in the suburban part of town and near city hall. Maybe the city would then reconsider their approach during the public uproar. :)

Melonie
03-23-2008, 07:49 PM
^^^ unless you do indeed have a Joe Redner type who is willing to 'piss away' several million dollars in order to make a political point, no 'sane' clubowner or club investors are going to invest big money in a new location for a bikini bar that is guaranteed to draw opposition from local residents / politicians. The Houston clubowners have lost their legal battle ... period.

The clubowners / investors are now going to sit down, are going to analyze their operating costs versus probable revenues as a bikini bar, and are going to decide whether or not a bikini bar business model can justify the continued existance of the club in its current location ( with three probable no's for every one yes !). The yesses will then 'tweak' their business model to maximize bikini bar profitability ... probably beginning with the firing of any dancers who aren't '10's'.

The clubowners who decided no will then have to decide whether or not it's worth the effort and additional investment to set up a new club in a location outside of the Houston city limits. Odds are that half will simply close down and sell out. The other half will indeed set up a new club in a new building that is outside the city of Houston's jurisdiction, both from the city ordinance and from city LE. Once the new club beyond the city limits is open for business, the clubowner is likely to do everything possible to maximize revenues generated by the new club. This is likely to include the active promotion of 'serious extras', and the hiring of girls who are happy to provide 'serious extras'.

As has been the case in other cities, this combination of extremely picky upscale downtown show clubs plus extremely sleazy 'extras' clubs just beyond the reach of city cops typically leaves local dancers who are not '10's', but who are not comfortable providing 'serious extras', in a very bad situation in regard to earnings potential.

From what I know of the Houston area, the best potential for success for a club relocating outside the city limits will be just north of the city limits around the International Airport, near the intersection of the beltway and I45 / Hardy Toll Road ... where it will still be possible to attract the travelling businessmen without tacking on an extra 30 minute drive each way. This area does have a fair share of hotels / restaurants etc. such that quite a few businessmen will probably swing by. However, like all 'beyond the city limits' clubs, the 'extras' expectations are likely to be fairly extreme.

Katrine
03-23-2008, 08:21 PM
From what I know of the Houston area, the best potential for success for a club relocating outside the city limits will be just north of the city limits around the International Airport, near the intersection of the beltway and I45 / Hardy Toll Road ... where it will still be possible to attract the travelling businessmen without tacking on an extra 30 minute drive each way. This area does have a fair share of hotels / restaurants etc. such that quite a few businessmen will probably swing by. However, like all 'beyond the city limits' clubs, the 'extras' expectations are likely to be fairly extreme.

That's where St. James and Houston Dolls are. Also, if Splendor is still open, its not far. That's still Houston somehow, because those places get busted all the time. If I'm not mistaken, its Unincorporated Harris County? Licensing isn't required for dancers. The surrounding area is pretty open and industrial, there is definately space for more clubs out there.


Needless to say, I've written extensively about the extras I saw at St. James. That place will really chip away at you because all the dances are done in private rooms, and boob GROPING is expected. Not just touching, but the guys expect to painfully rub and squeeze your breasts. Most will not buy more than 2-3 dances if you do not comply. Perhaps things have changed there?

Melonie, the extras expectations are just as bad at Treasures too though. A girl has to be very strong to make a decent living dancing clean.>:(

WiseGuy_TX
03-23-2008, 08:53 PM
^^^ unless you do indeed have a Joe Redner type who is willing to 'piss away' several million dollars in order to make a political point, no 'sane' clubowner or club investors are going to invest big money in a new location for a bikini bar that is guaranteed to draw opposition from local residents / politicians. The Houston clubowners have lost their legal battle ... period....it was a hoot when Duncan Burch put big signs up on various properties in Dallas proclaiming "Future Home of Baby Dolls Gentleman's Club", the complaints to the city soften their stance.


The yesses will then 'tweak' their business model to maximize bikini bar profitability ... probably beginning with the firing of any dancers who aren't '10's'....no doubt you have seen this before Mel, but i'm having trouble imagining this due to current supply and demand. If these clubs had a great customer base/volume then the lookers would seem to have an advantage. If the base isnt there, then it seems like they would keep the extras girls in order to maximize their tips.


That's still Houston somehow, because those places get busted all the time....i thought it was the County Sheriff doing the busts, but on second thought it might be Houston City Vice due the ETJ. ("Under Texas' Municipal Annexation Act of 1963, cities have certain powers over surrounding unincorporated areas, termed the Extraterritorial Jurisdiction. ETJ is a function of population; for cities over 100,000, it can cover all unincorporated area within five miles (20?)of any point on the city limits.")

miabella
03-24-2008, 12:26 AM
st james is unincorporated harris county (and thus can let girls go topless with no licence requirement). not sure if houston dolls is, though.

out towards galveston, the clubs already kinda follow melonie's model. heartbreakers is clean and hires only hot girls (a girl will be fired and not rehired for doing any extra), but it's impossible to make much money (not much in the way of customers). there are other clubs that are less picky, and they have higher contact and more extras.

WiseGuy_TX
03-26-2008, 05:58 PM
...several unrelated sources say clubs not in compliance with the city ordinance will officially become "bikini bars" by April 21, 2008. They must have been served notice.

miabella
03-26-2008, 11:32 PM
i'd love to learn more about those sources, because that doesn't sound promising for the strippers in houston, galveston, dallas, austin, san antonio and corpus christi.