View Full Version : Please find a way to end the war.
BrunetteGoddess
03-25-2008, 10:53 AM
I think that the Middle East will always be in some kind of turmoil. It's a volatile place and seems to always have been either on a large or small scale. I think that we need to leave. Give Iraq the tools it needs to rebuild and leave. They need to stand on their own. I think our presence actually makes it worse over there. I think those "terrorists" want us the fuck out.
But then there's always the gas situation. Sigh. I dunno. It's a confusing situation.
cameron_keys
03-25-2008, 11:09 AM
^^ I agree. But as much as I despise GW...I think this was not just about oil. I think we invaded Iraq to get a strong foothold in the middle east. Which we have done.
We cant just pull out without destroying the little good we've done. We still need a foothold in the Middle East,so we will always have troops there. I do think we need an exit strategy strongly in place to bring the excess troops home before we do any more damage.
Paris
03-25-2008, 11:17 AM
I don't want to start a flame war or anything, because I know a few people here have family in the military. But am wondering, are most people thinking that America has done a GOOD thing by invading Iraq? Do you think that it is any ones decision but the American government that you are still there?
The vast majority of Americans (the one paying attention anyway) think the war is bad and getting worse.
Polling link. (http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm)
We have been restricted in any anti-war protests through what is called "free speech zones". What that means is protests are only allowed to be conducted in areas where our elected leaders are guaranteed to NOT see it.
Soon, it won't matter. America is bankrupt and war is expensive. I fear that our troops are going to end up stranded in the middle east and dependent on international intervention to get home.
^^That likely means nations like Australia, Canada and the UK are going to have to jump in to the fray to a much greater extent.
Paris
03-25-2008, 11:27 AM
I for one am proud to live in a country that takes no shit from those sand fleas. We lost thousands of people in two building and 2 planes. Eye for an eye. you really think iraq discouraged terrorism...the only reason you hear all the other arab nations coming forth and saying they denounce terrorist groups is because they do not want to get shocked and awed.
I hate to see even 1 American soldier die. I have 2 friends that have come home in boxes, and I have 1 cousin who is 6 feet under...she worked in the world trade center building.
Yes an American life is more valuable then an iraqi life. So is a English, French, German, Canadian....etc, and yes even a mexican.
Take a deep breath, that's right, now count to 10. Go ahead, you can do it.
Now let the hate evaporate from your body. Feel it disappearing from you and only leaving the deep love of ALL OF HUMANKIND in it's place.
There....Feel better?
Mr Hyde
03-25-2008, 11:52 AM
^ that's totally different than what Mr Hyde said. Choosing a friend over a stranger, ok, that's logical, if not pc.
But (Mr Hyde), why say you'd choose the life of an American over an Iraqi? Are all Americans your friend? Are all Iraqis your enemy? Wtf? You have different value-degrees for different nationalities?
I didn't make the original statement about American lives being more valuable than Iraqi lives.
What I said was...at some point you stick with your own. I'm an American, and I'm proud of that and I think that an American life vs Iraqi life, all else being equal...I'd prefer that the American life is first.
Please...don't put words in my mouth or try to pass of your own feelings of what someone else says on to me, or try to paint me with a picture that suits your needs.
Eric Stoner
03-25-2008, 01:43 PM
I for one am proud to live in a country that takes no shit from those sand fleas. We lost thousands of people in two building and 2 planes. Eye for an eye. you really think iraq discouraged terrorism...the only reason you hear all the other arab nations coming forth and saying they denounce terrorist groups is because they do not want to get shocked and awed.
I hate to see even 1 American soldier die. I have 2 friends that have come home in boxes, and I have 1 cousin who is 6 feet under...she worked in the world trade center building.
Yes an American life is more valuable then an iraqi life. So is a English, French, German, Canadian....etc, and yes even a mexican.
Isn't this RACIST ? One person( according to Thump ) having more or less worth based on their ethnic background ?
First of all, Iraq had NO connection to 9/11. None whatsoever. Saddam DID pay a bounty to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers but that was ISRAEL"S problem, not ours. We now know that the Iraqi "plot" to kill G.H.W. Bush in Kuwait was a crock; that they didn't have WMD's; that "Curveball" was a con man.
We had no valid reason for going there and our staying there is far too damaging for any gain or benefit.
britt244
03-25-2008, 02:22 PM
We had no valid reason for going there and our staying there is far too damaging for any gain or benefit.
thats exactly what i think. thats what my point was when i said people were tricked. everyone was gung ho about going after the people from 9/11. which has nothing to do with iraq.
TheSexKitten
03-25-2008, 02:30 PM
Yes, the cost in blood and dollars is too high. We should just quit while we're behind....
Melonie
03-25-2008, 03:08 PM
^^^ you have no idea in regard to the likely 'cost' to America of pulling out ... i.e. double crossing Israel !
(snip)"A key pillar of the Lobby’s effectiveness is its influence in Congress, where Israel is virtually immune from criticism. This in itself is remarkable, because Congress rarely shies away from contentious issues. Where Israel is concerned, however, potential critics fall silent. One reason is that some key members are Christian Zionists like Dick Armey, who said in September 2002: ‘My No. 1 priority in foreign policy is to protect Israel.’ One might think that the No. 1 priority for any congressman would be to protect America. There are also Jewish senators and congressmen who work to ensure that US foreign policy supports Israel’s interests.
Another source of the Lobby’s power is its use of pro-Israel congressional staffers. As Morris Amitay, a former head of AIPAC, once admitted, ‘there are a lot of guys at the working level up here’ – on Capitol Hill – ‘who happen to be Jewish, who are willing . . . to look at certain issues in terms of their Jewishness . . . These are all guys who are in a position to make the decision in these areas for those senators . . . You can get an awful lot done just at the staff level.’
AIPAC itself, however, forms the core of the Lobby’s influence in Congress. Its success is due to its ability to reward legislators and congressional candidates who support its agenda, and to punish those who challenge it. Money is critical to US elections (as the scandal over the lobbyist Jack Abramoff’s shady dealings reminds us), and AIPAC makes sure that its friends get strong financial support from the many pro-Israel political action committees. Anyone who is seen as hostile to Israel can be sure that AIPAC will direct campaign contributions to his or her political opponents. AIPAC also organises letter-writing campaigns and encourages newspaper editors to endorse pro-Israel candidates.
There is no doubt about the efficacy of these tactics. Here is one example: in the 1984 elections, AIPAC helped defeat Senator Charles Percy from Illinois, who, according to a prominent Lobby figure, had ‘displayed insensitivity and even hostility to our concerns’. Thomas Dine, the head of AIPAC at the time, explained what happened: ‘All the Jews in America, from coast to coast, gathered to oust Percy. And the American politicians – those who hold public positions now, and those who aspire – got the message.’
AIPAC’s influence on Capitol Hill goes even further. According to Douglas Bloomfield, a former AIPAC staff member, ‘it is common for members of Congress and their staffs to turn to AIPAC first when they need information, before calling the Library of Congress, the Congressional Research Service, committee staff or administration experts.’ More important, he notes that AIPAC is ‘often called on to draft speeches, work on legislation, advise on tactics, perform research, collect co-sponsors and marshal votes’.
The bottom line is that AIPAC, a de facto agent for a foreign government, has a stranglehold on Congress, with the result that US policy towards Israel is not debated there, even though that policy has important consequences for the entire world. In other words, one of the three main branches of the government is firmly committed to supporting Israel. As one former Democratic senator, Ernest Hollings, noted on leaving office, ‘you can’t have an Israeli policy other than what AIPAC gives you around here.’ Or as Ariel Sharon once told an American audience, ‘when people ask me how they can help Israel, I tell them: “Help AIPAC.”’
Thanks in part to the influence Jewish voters have on presidential elections, the Lobby also has significant leverage over the executive branch. Although they make up fewer than 3 per cent of the population, they make large campaign donations to candidates from both parties. The Washington Post once estimated that Democratic presidential candidates ‘depend on Jewish supporters to supply as much as 60 per cent of the money’. And because Jewish voters have high turn-out rates and are concentrated in key states like California, Florida, Illinois, New York and Pennsylvania, presidential candidates go to great lengths not to antagonise them."(snip)
from
PS you generally don't find commentary like this in US mainstream media ... for whatever reason LOL
Don't be afraid to blame Israel!
That's partly why I'm persona-non-grata in a lot of circles.
With that mouth, it makes me think Melonie is an undercover member of liberty forums.
Unfortunately, they have a hard time labeling me an anti-Semite because I have a long history of dating Jewish women. I used to go to Hillel meetings in college(to chase Jewess ass). They recruited me, oddly enough, and the two booth babes were hot.
The war for oil thing doesn't really hold up. I've tried to make sense of it, but the it's not really there.
American Jews shouldn't be conned either. Sending Americans to die for Israel doesn't help them any. They guilt-trip the hell out of American Jews to be all for this shit though.
Thump
03-25-2008, 05:27 PM
Idiot..you do know that Iraq wasnt responsible for ANY of that right??? At least spew your hate speech towards the right country.
So, Ms. Smarty who is to blame?
And don't tell it was 19 hijackers because they are just workers for thier cause.
So who should I hate?
Paris
03-25-2008, 05:47 PM
So who should I hate?
You ask this as if there is no other option. Can you live without hate?
I do.
jester214
03-25-2008, 06:04 PM
So, Ms. Smarty who is to blame?
And don't tell it was 19 hijackers because they are just workers for thier cause.
So who should I hate?
Hate the fact that some of those people have been so twisted that they think killing themselves will somhow make things better...
Thump
03-25-2008, 07:08 PM
You ask this as if there is no other option. Can you live without hate?
I do.
what do you think we should do about 9/11? Live and let live?
In the case of 9/11, there is someone to hate, and according to keys I am hating on the wrong people.
Ms Smarty pants spent 30 minutes watching Clinton on fox news and all of the sudden you are qualified to tell me that iraq and saddam are just innocent victims in all this.....get real.
I've said it before....go to the middle east and spend 2 weeks there. I guarantee your opinion will be swayed. You think your gonna be able to shake your booty for a buck in Iraq.....HA
__________________________________________________ ___________
I am in the oil and gas industry, and I spend 132-150 days a year in the middle east in places like Iraq, Bahrain, saudi Arabia, and Kuwait. It is no fun being there. Those people are barbaric. They treat their women worse then America treats its most hardened criminals in super max.
I am really shocked that the women on this board are standing up for a people that disfigure women as a preventative maintenance and punishment.
Yes, I am racist against Muslims.
PS. And BTW I have seen Muslims spit on, burn, run over with a car, the American flags, I have seem them spit on newspaper pictures of American servicemen as-well.
If you are not my friend you are my enemy, and I have yet seen Israel or Jewish people intentionally kill Americans (my people) and then celebrate about it in the streets.
Thump
03-25-2008, 07:10 PM
Hate the fact that some of those people have been so twisted that they think killing themselves will somhow make things better...
I would have no beef whatsoever if they kill themselves, it's that they are taking my people and my family with them.
TheSexKitten
03-25-2008, 07:14 PM
what do you think we should do about 9/11? Live and let live?
In the case of 9/11, there is someone to hate, and according to keys I am hating on the wrong people.
Ms Smarty pants spent 30 minutes watching Clinton on fox news and all of the sudden you are qualified to tell me that iraq and saddam are just innocent victims in all this.....get real.
I've said it before....go to the middle east and spend 2 weeks there. I guarantee your opinion will be swayed. You think your gonna be able to shake your booty for a buck in Iraq.....HA
__________________________________________________ ___________
I am in the oil and gas industry, and I spend 132-150 days a year in the middle east in places like Iraq, Bahrain, saudi Arabia, and Kuwait. It is no fun being there. Those people are barbaric. They treat their women worse then America treats its most hardened criminals in super max.
I am really shocked that the women on this board are standing up for a people that disfigure women as a preventative maintenance and punishment.
Yes, I am racist against Muslims.
PS. And BTW I have seen Muslims spit on, burn, run over with a car, the American flags, I have seem them spit on newspaper pictures of American servicemen as-well.
If you are not my friend you are my enemy, and I have yet seen Israel or Jewish people intentionally kill Americans (my people) and then celebrate about it in the streets.
I respect that you've had a lot of experience over there, and that's invaluable to solving this problem, but the point was like... right there. And you missed it by a couple miles or so.
It's also pretty hilarious that you're in the oil industry.
p.s. Islam = religion, not race
p.p.s. Reasons for war went from Osama (Afghanistan) > Saddam (got him...) > Al Qaida (little to do with Iraq) > Weapons (which weren't there) > "bringing democracy" (reeks of colonialism and we've fucked up more than we've fixed, not to mention there are way worse human rights violations occuring all over the damn world)
Anybody who wants to fight Muslims, feel free to pick a rifle and go.
Leave the rest of us out of it.
That includes my wallet.
I've been to the middle east(with the above mentioned rifle). Not so bad, Iraq of all places was a fairly liberal place with regards to women in the Islamic world, so that point falls flat.
As for as shaking your ass, lots of places in the US are quite puritanical when it comes to adult entertainment, so you don't have to travel to the Middle East to find such restrictions.
scarlett_vancouver
03-25-2008, 07:51 PM
I didn't make the original statement about American lives being more valuable than Iraqi lives.
What I said was...at some point you stick with your own. I'm an American, and I'm proud of that and I think that an American life vs Iraqi life, all else being equal...I'd prefer that the American life is first.
Please...don't put words in my mouth or try to pass of your own feelings of what someone else says on to me, or try to paint me with a picture that suits your needs.
What? I just went off what you said...my question was about how you define "your own", and why you define it that way.
What are my needs? lol
LadyLuck
03-25-2008, 08:43 PM
Yes, I am racist against Muslims.
WTF? Is :loco: shit like that even allowed on this site? Please tell that is ban worthy.
ColetteCalahan
03-25-2008, 08:44 PM
Nicely put. Although I think it might just be straight up colonialist BS.
Thank you! i'm glad someone agrees with me... i only said "neo" because i meant it in the way of implying a "new" colonialism... but with the same degrading, racist justifications as last century.
It is NOT nationalistic, jester... perhaps ETHNonationalistic.... >:(
If you are not my friend you are my enemy, and I have yet seen Israel or Jewish people intentionally kill Americans (my people) and then celebrate about it in the streets.
hahaha dude, go back to watching 300... you're laughable. and i wonder why Israel and some Islamic nations might view America differently... HMMMMM lemme think REAL DAMN HARD about that.
Melonie
03-25-2008, 08:58 PM
what do you think we should do about 9/11? Live and let live?
as frustrating as this might be (and it's frustrating for me personally since two people I knew rather well were killed in the WTC bombing), America is just not going to get the 'wake up call' until we have a second and much more devastating 'smoking hole in the ground' on American soil.
jester214
03-25-2008, 09:38 PM
It is NOT nationalistic, jester... perhaps ETHNonationalistic.... >:(
What? Excluding thump, the views you posted about had nothing to do with race, creed, religion, whatever...
They were about Americans versus anyone else... That's nationalistic...
Kaylinn
03-25-2008, 09:56 PM
So, Ms. Smarty who is to blame?
And don't tell it was 19 hijackers because they are just workers for thier cause.
So who should I hate?
You hate an entire nation for the acts of a few?
I don't have anything to add to a discussion of war...but I hate to see such hatred.
You know...in Vegas, we have people here from all over the world. One day I met a Muslim card dealer at a casino. I didn't know he was Muslim, or where he was from.
When I asked where he was from..he was very very hesitant to answer, and vaguly said Middle East. I said, oh, where? He was reluctant to tell me he was from Iraq. When I asked why he was so reluctant he said he wasn't able to tell people where he was born because he gets so much hatred directed towards him. This poor man was embarassed of his nationality and religion and ashamed to say what he was. That is sad. He hadn't even been to Iraq since he was a child, yet simply because of where he was born, he was harassed daily. I am more disgusted by how some people treat their fellow HUMAN BEINGS.
I only wish people had more compassion and decency.
yes, I hate the fuckers who flew the planes on 9/11 as well, and it had a personal impact on my life. But I cannot hate an entire nation for the acts of a small group of evil people. Not every single person from that country is bad.
Yekhefah
03-25-2008, 10:14 PM
Hey, Thump! Can you tell me the names of all the Iraqi 9/11 hijackers? Just the Iraqi ones, thanks.
xdamage
03-25-2008, 10:21 PM
Hey, Thump! Can you tell me the names of all the Iraqi 9/11 hijackers? Just the Iraqi ones, thanks.
Thank you!
and for Thump (here is a hint) -
http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/feature/2003/02/06/iraq_poll/index.html
TheSexKitten
03-25-2008, 10:32 PM
Thump needs a dunce cap because he just got pwnd
britt244
03-25-2008, 11:18 PM
WTF? Is :loco: shit like that even allowed on this site? Please tell that is ban worthy.
this thread is in member boards. no mods, no pointing. and no.. something like that is not ban worthy. why does this site have to be freaking peace and love all the time? there are racist people out there and at least he's admitting it. he's severely misguided in his hatred, but you cant ban someone for that. and i think it's ridiculous if we did.
The same argument people are using in this thread about why should hate Arabs because of the acts of a few is the same argument Islamic fanatics use about Americans.
They point at a few Americans(those in the military and politicians) and use it to condemn all Americans.
Amazing how that works, isn't it?
The war in Iraq also isn't colonialism, that's an excuse. It's a more convenient excuse than "A proxy war for Israel", which is most likely the real reason for it.
America has done colonialism before. It looked much different than Iraq.
Our politicians are not the rank and file idiots of the masses. I doubt they hold any outrageous notions of nationalism and/or wanting to evangelicize about democracy. That's what the proles do because.
Racism is not the domain of the intelligent. It's the domain of the insecure who need somebody to feel superior to. Unfortunately, the politicians have to pander to mass sentiment as well, so they give the above a bit of lip service and action.
Thump
03-26-2008, 06:16 AM
Thank you!
and for Thump (here is a hint) -
http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/feature/2003/02/06/iraq_poll/index.html
Geez throwing articles from such credible sources as salon....ooops they do have an advertisement to yahoo so they must be credible.......my mind is now changed.
Come on you can post links to left wing stuff and I can just as easily post stuff to right wing.
The names of Iraq terrorist is alquida. Iraq sponsors and shelters militant groups. http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/decade/sect5.html
In April 2002, Saddam Hussein increased from $10,000 to $25,000 the money offered to families of Palestinian suicide/homicide bombers. The rules for rewarding suicide/homicide bombers are strict and insist that only someone who blows himself up with a belt of explosives gets the full payment. Payments are made on a strict scale, with different amounts for wounds, disablement, death as a "martyr" and $25,000 for a suicide bomber. Mahmoud Besharat, a representative on the West Bank who is handing out to families the money from Saddam, said, "You would have to ask President Saddam why he is being so generous. But he is a revolutionary and he wants this distinguished struggle, the intifada, to continue."
Oh but if you mean specific here is one Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Although he was not a born citizen of iraq he "was a Jordanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan) militant Islamist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militant_Islam) who ran a militant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militant) training camp in Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan). He became known after going to Iraq and being accused by United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) and Jordanian officials for a series of bombings, beheadings and attacks during the Iraq War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War)."
You guys can call me names like racist, idiot....etc, but the fact is there is a problem. Look at any nation and look at their history. you will find conflict with the Muslims. Maybe with the exception of Greenland.
Thump
03-26-2008, 06:32 AM
OK, I am a right wind conservative amongst a bunch left wing liberals....that's OK with me, and I am pretty impressed that this thread hasn't gone to personal attacks and and flames.
So how about you left wingers give me a solution. so far 2,726 death certificates have been written for the WTC bombing. what do we do about it?
Thump
03-26-2008, 06:41 AM
The war in Iraq also isn't colonialism, that's an excuse. It's a more convenient excuse than "A proxy war for Israel", which is most likely the real reason for it.
I'll by that!
Israel has been at war with Muslims for a very long time...and the attack on US soil was probably meant as a statement to Israel. But the attack was on US soil and made it our problem.
hockeybobby
03-26-2008, 07:38 AM
OK, I am a right wind conservative amongst a bunch left wing liberals....that's OK with me, and I am pretty impressed that this thread hasn't gone to personal attacks and and flames.
So how about you left wingers give me a solution. so far 2,726 death certificates have been written for the WTC bombing. what do we do about it?
There have been many deaths since that day, including 4000 American men and women in Iraq alone. This is in addition to the servicemen and women lost in Afghanistan, and the countless Iraqis, and faceless thousands of innocent civilian casualties.
How many deaths are required to heal that terrible wound? Is it possible that saving a life, just one life, might go further toward that end? Just consider that option, that's all I'm saying. I'm not smart enough to have the definitive answers to these terrible, complex issues, but my gut tells me that the solutions prosecuted so far are wrong. They feel wrong.
I feel like the hatred that spawned that awful plane attack can only be defeated by love.
xdamage
03-26-2008, 09:12 AM
And don't tell it was 19 hijackers because they are just workers for thier cause.
So who should I hate?
There is a real problem, and that is undeniable to me.
And there are some very good points to be made that extreme fundamentalism in a modern world that includes technology that allows extremists to do massive harm is a serious concern that requires action. Let's face it, 100 years ago (or less) 19 hijackers could not have inflicted such massive damage, and in theory 19 could do much worse if a biological or nuclear weapon was used. This is technology that did not exist in the past, so it is essential that all governments, including Arab governments are actively working to eliminate extremism.
But we call it Extremism for a reason. What you are getting flack for is an over simplification, black and white thinking, some Arabs are extremists, so all Arabs are enemies. While that is so simple a child could understand it, the reality is not that simple. It's the kind of simplification that I fear led Bush to honestly believe we'd be in and out of Iraq in a short period of time. Simple right? Go in. Capture or Kill the Saddam. Next day the Iraqi's set up a new government. By the next weekend we go home. Simple. Ugh.
Root of the problem is sticking our nose in the middle east POLITICALLY. If you create a short enough time line, you can misinterpret anything. To think 9-11 came from a vacuum a problem greater than Islamic fanaticism.
Muslims are hardly the only group with fanatics. Christian fanatics scare me more because they are closer and have a bigger impact on my life because of their influence on government. Sin taxes and so forth. Jewish fanatics scare me because of their role in US politics.
Environmentalist fanatics have done a lot, too.
All we have done post 9-11 is ensure more Muslims will hate us and seek revenge. They are not a people that easily forgets, something I commend them for.
Eric Stoner
03-26-2008, 09:25 AM
So, Ms. Smarty who is to blame?
And don't tell it was 19 hijackers because they are just workers for thier cause.
So who should I hate?
This mentality, embodied in Cheney, Wolfowitz, Scooter and Rumsfeld helped get us into Iraq. It drove the abuses at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib. It's the "Mark Levin" school of geopolitics.
NEVER hate your enemies. It clouds your judgment.
Eric Stoner
03-26-2008, 09:34 AM
^^^ you have no idea in regard to the likely 'cost' to America of pulling out ... i.e. double crossing Israel !
(snip)"A key pillar of the Lobby’s effectiveness is its influence in Congress, where Israel is virtually immune from criticism. This in itself is remarkable, because Congress rarely shies away from contentious issues. Where Israel is concerned, however, potential critics fall silent. One reason is that some key members are Christian Zionists like Dick Armey, who said in September 2002: ‘My No. 1 priority in foreign policy is to protect Israel.’ One might think that the No. 1 priority for any congressman would be to protect America. There are also Jewish senators and congressmen who work to ensure that US foreign policy supports Israel’s interests.
Another source of the Lobby’s power is its use of pro-Israel congressional staffers. As Morris Amitay, a former head of AIPAC, once admitted, ‘there are a lot of guys at the working level up here’ – on Capitol Hill – ‘who happen to be Jewish, who are willing . . . to look at certain issues in terms of their Jewishness . . . These are all guys who are in a position to make the decision in these areas for those senators . . . You can get an awful lot done just at the staff level.’
AIPAC itself, however, forms the core of the Lobby’s influence in Congress. Its success is due to its ability to reward legislators and congressional candidates who support its agenda, and to punish those who challenge it. Money is critical to US elections (as the scandal over the lobbyist Jack Abramoff’s shady dealings reminds us), and AIPAC makes sure that its friends get strong financial support from the many pro-Israel political action committees. Anyone who is seen as hostile to Israel can be sure that AIPAC will direct campaign contributions to his or her political opponents. AIPAC also organises letter-writing campaigns and encourages newspaper editors to endorse pro-Israel candidates.
There is no doubt about the efficacy of these tactics. Here is one example: in the 1984 elections, AIPAC helped defeat Senator Charles Percy from Illinois, who, according to a prominent Lobby figure, had ‘displayed insensitivity and even hostility to our concerns’. Thomas Dine, the head of AIPAC at the time, explained what happened: ‘All the Jews in America, from coast to coast, gathered to oust Percy. And the American politicians – those who hold public positions now, and those who aspire – got the message.’
AIPAC’s influence on Capitol Hill goes even further. According to Douglas Bloomfield, a former AIPAC staff member, ‘it is common for members of Congress and their staffs to turn to AIPAC first when they need information, before calling the Library of Congress, the Congressional Research Service, committee staff or administration experts.’ More important, he notes that AIPAC is ‘often called on to draft speeches, work on legislation, advise on tactics, perform research, collect co-sponsors and marshal votes’.
The bottom line is that AIPAC, a de facto agent for a foreign government, has a stranglehold on Congress, with the result that US policy towards Israel is not debated there, even though that policy has important consequences for the entire world. In other words, one of the three main branches of the government is firmly committed to supporting Israel. As one former Democratic senator, Ernest Hollings, noted on leaving office, ‘you can’t have an Israeli policy other than what AIPAC gives you around here.’ Or as Ariel Sharon once told an American audience, ‘when people ask me how they can help Israel, I tell them: “Help AIPAC.”’
Thanks in part to the influence Jewish voters have on presidential elections, the Lobby also has significant leverage over the executive branch. Although they make up fewer than 3 per cent of the population, they make large campaign donations to candidates from both parties. The Washington Post once estimated that Democratic presidential candidates ‘depend on Jewish supporters to supply as much as 60 per cent of the money’. And because Jewish voters have high turn-out rates and are concentrated in key states like California, Florida, Illinois, New York and Pennsylvania, presidential candidates go to great lengths not to antagonise them."(snip)
from http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html
PS you generally don't find commentary like this in US mainstream media ... for whatever reason LOL
Sometimes Melonie has a bigger set than I do. She posted exactly what I've been ruminating about for some time : How much does the Israeli tail wag the U.S. dog ?
If you look at the overall situation and ask: "Who wins and who loses"; the BIGGEST winners are Russia ( Putin LOVES $100 a barrel oil ) and Israel. We have replaced Israel as Arab Enemy Number 1. Except for Hamas and Hezbollah, they're pretty much being left alone.
Mossad is generally recognized to have the best intel in the Middle East. I always found it a bity curious that the Israelis had no input about Iraqi WMD's when THEY and Iran would have been Saddam's prime targets.
Who would be Target Number 1 of Iranian nukes ? Israel.
Who is cheering loudest for us to attack Iran ? Israel.
Paris
03-26-2008, 10:29 AM
what do you think we should do about 9/11? Live and let live?
In the case of 9/11, there is someone to hate, and according to keys I am hating on the wrong people.
Ms Smarty pants spent 30 minutes watching Clinton on fox news and all of the sudden you are qualified to tell me that iraq and saddam are just innocent victims in all this.....get real.
I've said it before....go to the middle east and spend 2 weeks there. I guarantee your opinion will be swayed. You think your gonna be able to shake your booty for a buck in Iraq.....HA
Killing more people doesn't undo the attacks on the World Trade Center. Besides the fact that, Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein were enemies, the US attacked a sovereign nation that was not a direct threat to the US. That was a strategic tactic of Hitler. You see how well that worked out, don't you?
There is so much more to the war in Iraq that the average American citizen will never have insight to. I try not to solve the problem, but merely support the peaceful end of the war.
__________________________________________________ ___________
I am in the oil and gas industry, and I spend 132-150 days a year in the middle east in places like Iraq, Bahrain, saudi Arabia, and Kuwait. It is no fun being there. Those people are barbaric. They treat their women worse then America treats its most hardened criminals in super max.
I recommend you find a new line of work. This sounds like a destructive situation for you and no good can come of it. If you think it is only for financial reasons that you stay, what is the price this work is exacting on you?
Just like strippers that begin to self destruct (via alcohol and drug use, or other self destructive behaviors) you need to take a financial loss and just get out! Is your sanity worth it? Is your life worth it? What about your future for your family?
I am really shocked that the women on this board are standing up for a people that disfigure women as a preventative maintenance and punishment.
Yes, I am racist against Muslims.
then maybe allowing them to self destruct by leaving the region would be in alignment with your feelings?
PS. And BTW I have seen Muslims spit on, burn, run over with a car, the American flags, I have seem them spit on newspaper pictures of American servicemen as-well.
If you are not my friend you are my enemy, and I have yet seen Israel or Jewish people intentionally kill Americans (my people) and then celebrate about it in the streets.
The American flag is merely a symbol. If it makes them feel better to desecrate our flag, they have effectively done no harm to us at all. Ultimately it is just a piece of fabric, not the actual American spirit. They might as well be using voodoo dolls for all the difference it makes. We would laugh at the desecration of a Bush Voodoo doll. We should also laugh at the desecration of our flag. It is an impotent rage that flares out against inanimate objects.
Murder should never be celebrated. Be it righteous or heinous, a celebration of murder is wrong. Just imagine how mentally ill a person has to be to rejoice over death and destruction. Don't stoop to their level, Thump. Rise above the fray.
Paris
03-26-2008, 10:32 AM
WTF? Is :loco: shit like that even allowed on this site? Please tell that is ban worthy.
Member is a free-for-all.
Paris
03-26-2008, 10:44 AM
OK, I am a right wind conservative amongst a bunch left wing liberals....that's OK with me, and I am pretty impressed that this thread hasn't gone to personal attacks and and flames.
That's because liberals don't look at things in absolutes. Nothing can be absolutely good or absolutely bad. It's that damn gray area that gets our panties into knots.
So how about you left wingers give me a solution. so far 2,726 death certificates have been written for the WTC bombing. what do we do about it?
Didn't a wise man once say that the best revenge is living well? Just like the Grinch couldn't steal Christmas, terrorists can't steal our nation. We would have to give it away (and it appears that is exactly what we are doing).
Yekhefah
03-26-2008, 10:56 AM
Okay, Thump.
We are not very well acquainted, so you probably aren't aware of my reputation around here as a warmongering right-wing Zionist. I've been (probably rightly) accused of anti-Arab racism, so we have that in common. Just letting you know before you start calling me a left-wing Muslim-loving peacenik hippie, which seems to be your standard dismissal here. So now that you know where I stand...
You're an idiot. Al Qaeda had no presence in Iraq before the war, but they're pretty well established there now. Saddam Hussein was never a threat to us, but now Iraq is. Not a SINGLE ONE of the 9/11 hijackers was Iraqi; almost all of them were Saudis. Osama bin Laden is very likely to be in Saudi Arabia. We were right to invade Afghanistan after 9/11, and we would be justified (if suicidal) in invading Saudi Arabia, but we had ZERO justification for the war in Iraq. Now we're so deeply mired in this muck that there's no good way out of it.
When uneducated morons like you wave the "Yay America" flag and assume all the brown Muslims are the same people, it makes us all look bad and it does nothing to make us safer. In fact it endangers us and emboldens our enemies. So please, for the love of G-d and country, put the fucking flag down and read something.
Thank you.
Thump
03-26-2008, 11:01 AM
There is a real problem, and that is undeniable to me.
And there are some very good points to be made that extreme fundamentalism in a modern world that includes technology that allows extremists to do massive harm is a serious concern that requires action. Let's face it, 100 years ago (or less) 19 hijackers could not have inflicted such massive damage, and in theory 19 could do much worse if a biological or nuclear weapon was used. This is technology that did not exist in the past, so it is essential that all governments, including Arab governments are actively working to eliminate extremism.
But we call it Extremism for a reason. What you are getting flack for is an over simplification, black and white thinking, some Arabs are extremists, so all Arabs are enemies. While that is so simple a child could understand it, the reality is not that simple. It's the kind of simplification that I fear led Bush to honestly believe we'd be in and out of Iraq in a short period of time. Simple right? Go in. Capture or Kill the Saddam. Next day the Iraqi's set up a new government. By the next weekend we go home. Simple. Ugh.
I'm not worried about getting flack....Receiving flack is just one way people show their disapproval of my opinion.
I did leave an open ended questions a couple posts back that so far (I understand it's early in the day) only HockyBobby has attempted to answer. I respect his view point...his view point is not the same as mine and we will have to agree to disagree which is cool with me any day of the week.
I just don't feel love can ensure my safety. I would LOVE for us to leave Iraq. I would LOVE to see my friends return home and be reunited with their newborns, wives, husbands, parents....etc....I would LOVE to see all militant groups be disbanded and brought to justice....and I do feel if you aid a criminal (Iraq funds and shelters terrorists) you should get the wrath of justice. in this instance USA is the hand of justice.
I am an Israeli supporter and a Jew to the end, and it has been made clear the all Jews are the enemy of Muslims. Are there Arab Muslims who are good people? without a doubt there are, but I am not going to go looking for them. They should make themselves visible and heard instead of silent and unseen. Show me that Afghanistan, Jordan, Iraq, saudi Arabia, Iran, lebanon, Bahrain, libia....etc are willing to take precise and sever actions on those that jeopardize piece and my thinking may sway. Setting bounties on terrorists then turning around and sheltering them from persecution is not doing it for me.
Thump
03-26-2008, 11:16 AM
Okay, Thump.
We are not very well acquainted, so you probably aren't aware of my reputation around here as a warmongering right-wing Zionist. I've been (probably rightly) accused of anti-Arab racism, so we have that in common. Just letting you know before you start calling me a left-wing Muslim-loving peacenik hippie, which seems to be your standard dismissal here. So now that you know where I stand...
You're an idiot. Al Qaeda had no presence in Iraq before the war, but they're pretty well established there now. Saddam Hussein was never a threat to us, but now Iraq is. Not a SINGLE ONE of the 9/11 hijackers was Iraqi; almost all of them were Saudis. Osama bin Laden is very likely to be in Saudi Arabia. We were right to invade Afghanistan after 9/11, and we would be justified (if suicidal) in invading Saudi Arabia, but we had ZERO justification for the war in Iraq. Now we're so deeply mired in this muck that there's no good way out of it.
When uneducated morons like you wave the "Yay America" flag and assume all the brown Muslims are the same people, it makes us all look bad and it does nothing to make us safer. In fact it endangers us and emboldens our enemies. So please, for the love of G-d and country, put the fucking flag down and read something.
Thank you.
Your point comes across so much more clearer with the name calling....way to excersize your excelent debating skills.
Actualy I have not personaly attacked or namecalled any SW members a single bad name. I did call Keys Ms. Smarty. so why would I stoop to your level. Name calling is a sure fire way to show your frustration. It's OK it's a frustrating time.
Would it make you feel better if I agreed with you. Maybe I should issue a public apoligy for having a different view from you. Maybe if we all thought alike then this would would be so much more fun. Do you want me to stop posting in this thread, board, SW? Just say so and I will. My beliefes are mine, yours are yours. Do you really want to control how other think?
OH YEAH, sticks and stone may break my bone but words will never hurt me....your rubber I'm glue whatever you say bounces of me and sticks to.
Yekhefah
03-26-2008, 11:20 AM
Way to skip over the point, Thump. Good job.
cameron_keys
03-26-2008, 11:21 AM
And Ms. Smarty wasnt meant as an insult? Please...
jester214
03-26-2008, 11:26 AM
It's so nice to just sit out and watch someone else be all by themselves on a side... Then again, give LadyLuck another day and "thump" will probably become "me"...
hockeybobby
03-26-2008, 11:29 AM
I'm not worried about getting flack....Receiving flack is just one way people show their disapproval of my opinion.
I did leave an open ended questions a couple posts back that so far (I understand it's early in the day) only HockyBobby has attempted to answer. I respect his view point...his view point is not the same as mine and we will have to agree to disagree which is cool with me any day of the week.
I just don't feel love can ensure my safety. I would LOVE for us to leave Iraq. I would LOVE to see my friends return home and be reunited with their newborns, wives, husbands, parents....etc....I would LOVE to see all militant groups be disbanded and brought to justice....and I do feel if you aid a criminal (Iraq funds and shelters terrorists) you should get the wrath of justice. in this instance USA is the hand of justice.
I am an Israeli supporter and a Jew to the end, and it has been made clear the all Jews are the enemy of Muslims. Are there Arab Muslims who are good people? without a doubt there are, but I am not going to go looking for them. They should make themselves visible and heard instead of silent and unseen. Show me that Afghanistan, Jordan, Iraq, saudi Arabia, Iran, lebanon, Bahrain, libia....etc are willing to take precise and sever actions on those that jeopardize piece and my thinking may sway. Setting bounties on terrorists then turning around and sheltering them from persecution is not doing it for me.
I guess this is a little off topic but I'll throw it out there anyway...If I had the power to do it, I would offer the Israelis an autonomous territory in Canada where they could live in peace and safety, and practice their religion. Then they could give that land back to the people who had it before.
Of course, first I would want to set things right with our First Nations.
Perhaps the solution to neutralizing all the hatred between Muslims/Jews/Christians lies in focusing on finding a lasting, peaceful solution in Israel? I know my little idea is whimsical and off the cuff, but maybe you have brought attention to a way to peace Thump.
hockeybobby
03-26-2008, 11:33 AM
I just don't feel love can ensure my safety. I would LOVE for us to leave Iraq. I would LOVE to see my friends return home and be reunited with their newborns, wives, husbands, parents....etc....I would LOVE to see all militant groups be disbanded and brought to justice....and I do feel if you aid a criminal (Iraq funds and shelters terrorists) you should get the wrath of justice. in this instance USA is the hand of justice.
It's so nice to just sit out and watch someone else be all by themselves on a side... Then again, give LadyLuck another day and "thump" will probably become "me"...
We are not on opposite sides in all respects jester. We are all struggling with the question of what to do.
Thump
03-26-2008, 11:34 AM
Way to skip over the point, Thump. Good job.
what was the point? was it that I am an idiot or moron....I got it you don't like me....you have that right.
Or was you point that there was no al qaeda presence in Iraq?
who do you think fund these groups?
Or I should go read something?
I am reading SW
Eric Stoner
03-26-2008, 11:34 AM
It's so nice to just sit out and watch someone else be all by themselves on a side... Then again, give LadyLuck another day and "thump" will probably become "me"...
You don't know how relieved I am that nobody thinks "Thump" is me.
Yekhefah
03-26-2008, 11:35 AM
I guess this is a little off topic but I'll throw it out there anyway...If I had the power to do it, I would offer the Israelis an autonomous territory in Canada where they could live in peace and safety, and practice their religion. Then they could give that land back to the people who had it before.
Um, not to jack the thread, but as a Jew and a Zionist I would reject that offer. We were offered territory in Uganda and we turned it down because Uganda is not our homeland, and neither is Canada. WE are the people who had Israel before. The land is ours.
The first president of Israel was speaking with the British Parliament and he was asked, "Why do you Jews insist on Palestine when there are so many other areas where you could settle more conveniently?" Weizmann responded, "That is like my asking you why you drove two hours to visit your mother last Sunday when there are so many other little old ladies living right on your street."