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Eric Stoner
03-26-2008, 11:47 AM
Hillary's OWN supporters are now admitting that if she doesn't get the nomination; she wants Obama to lose to McCain.

The delegate math is against her.
She'll probably lose the popular vote to Obama and lose more states than she's won.
The superdelegates won't save her.
Nobody is buying her "Electoral Vote" argument.
She doesn't want to be Vice-President.

By refusing to concede and fighting it out all the way to Denver and on the Convention Floor she is saying that she doesn't care about the Party (and since she is content to let McCain beat Obama ) the country as a whole.

She doesn't want to be Senate Majority leader when so many of her colleagues
endorsed Obama and she doesn't get along with Pelosi.

In 2000 she and Bill were too busy getting her elected to the Senate to help Gore.

In 2012 she'll be 65 and set up to run virtually unopposed for the Democrat nomination. McCain will be 76 and we'll probably still be stuck in Iraq.

Look for her to bloody up Obama and try to assure he loses the General Election.

miabella
03-26-2008, 11:57 AM
she's cashed in all her clinton-cred on this run. she may bash obama into unelectability for the general, but she's also wrecked herself for any future runs.

when mainstream news reporters start comparing you to tonya harding, you aren't likely to pull off a second successful bid for office in 2012 (since you have to start running in basically late 2009, which is not enough time for people to forget her youtube'd lies).

i feel pretty certain that it's going to be president obama or mccain through 2012 and then, well...president obama or mccain through 2016. reagan was old too, and he ended up getting two terms. and obama is young, so people may vote for the young, healthy looking guy.

hillary's not planning as far ahead as the 2012 presidency. she just wants this one, and thinks even a 1 percent chance of getting it is worth destroying the democratic party over.

bem401
03-26-2008, 12:11 PM
Hilary is toast and so is Obama for that matter. For either one of them to win, they need the backing of the other's supporters once the dust has settled. Right now there is so much bad blood between the two camps there will never be a reconciliation, regardless of who eventually gets the nomination. Rush Limbaugh's Operation Chaos has worked like a charm thus far. The longer Clinton stays in there and fight for what she mistakenly believes she is entitled to, the more assured McCain can become of being the next President.

Eric Stoner
03-26-2008, 12:31 PM
Hilary is toast and so is Obama for that matter. For either one of them to win, they need the backing of the other's supporters once the dust has settled. Right now there is so much bad blood between the two camps there will never be a reconciliation, regardless of who eventually gets the nomination. Rush Limbaugh's Operation Chaos has worked like a charm thus far. The longer Clinton stays in there and fight for what she mistakenly believes she is entitled to, the more assured McCain can become of being the next President.

McCain and his supporters like Limbaugh are loving this and want it to continue as long as possible.

It's OBAMA's supporters that would be unlikely to support Hillary. Much of his Independent and Republican support will either stay home or vote for McCain rather than vote for Hillary. Many of his Black supporters might not forgive her IF they think she "stole" the nomination.

If Obama wins then almost all of Hillary's supporters will vote for him. The anti-war vote. What little is left of her Black support. Very few of her supporters would rather vote for McCain than Obama.

Many a wise head in the Dem. ranks is well aware of this but they don't see a way to get Hillary to bow out.

bem401
03-26-2008, 12:45 PM
Many a wise head in the Dem. ranks is well aware of this but they don't see a way to get Hillary to bow out.

First off, Limbaugh ( and those who share his views ) views McCain as the least of 3 evils.

Obama is also toast because anyone who thinks his questionable associations with Wright and others are going to go away is dead wrong. If you think he is being piled on now about them, just wait till the general election.

Can you imagine what would be of McCain's campaign if it were to be revealed that he had a 20-yr. association with a prominent Klansman. No sane person would defend him, yet Obama isn't held to the same standard. ( At least not yet )

And the Clintons will not back down ( or out ) because they only care about themselves and the power they can attain. They really stand for nothing more than the lust for power and popularity. Hence they will do or say anything to achieve it.

Eric Stoner
03-26-2008, 12:54 PM
First off, Limbaugh ( and those who share his views ) views McCain as the least of 3 evils.

Obama is also toast because anyone who thinks his questionable associations with Wright and others are going to go away is dead wrong. If you think he is being piled on now about them, just wait till the general election.

Can you imagine what would be of McCain's campaign if it were to be revealed that he had a 20-yr. association with a prominent Klansman. No sane person would defend him, yet Obama isn't held to the same standard. ( At least not yet )

This is A reason why I think Hillary is deliberately using a "scorched earth" strategy. Guess who went to the White house to "counsel and comfort" Bill during the Monica mess ? That's right. Reverend Wright.

If Hillary had dropped out or if she drops out soon, she'd have neither reason nor opportunity to tear chunks out of Obama's hide. Would she ?

bem401
03-26-2008, 01:13 PM
This is A reason why I think Hillary is deliberately using a "scorched earth" strategy. Guess who went ot the White house to "counsel and comfort" Bill during the Monica mess ? That's right. Reverend Wright.

If Hillary had dropped out or if she drops out soon, she'd have neither reason nor opportunity to tear chunks out of Obama's hide. Would she ?

Well, she is using a scorched-earth strategy because she thinks she is entitled to be President. There has been talk for over a decade over her becoming President.
And Bill Clinton was always a master of manipulation, particularly when it came to Black folks. BTW, I read something yesterday that said MLK was actually a Republican.

Yekhefah
03-26-2008, 01:18 PM
I think this has all worked out pretty well. McCain will be the next president, and that beats the hell out of Huckabee, though it would've been better if it was Ron Paul. I might actually vote for McCain in November, we'll see. I've been disenfranchised by the primary system (Oregon's primary isn't until May, at which point we might as well not have a primary at all) but I'm glad it looks like McCain.

And yes, he stands an excellent chance at two terms. If Hillary runs against him in 2012 she'll very likely get her ass handed to her again. I said several months ago that Americans would see a black male president long before we'd EVER see a female, and I'm right. Hillary's many flaws aside, sexism is just too deeply entrenched in our culture. Bill Clinton can do one thing and people praise him for his strength, and then Hillary can do exactly the same thing and people sneer, "What a bitch." And the fact that she IS an incompetent political hack doesn't help.

All this Democrat infighting is just fine with me. I can live with a President McCain.

jester214
03-26-2008, 01:21 PM
Hilary is toast and so is Obama for that matter. For either one of them to win, they need the backing of the other's supporters once the dust has settled. Right now there is so much bad blood between the two camps there will never be a reconciliation, regardless of who eventually gets the nomination. Rush Limbaugh's Operation Chaos has worked like a charm thus far. The longer Clinton stays in there and fight for what she mistakenly believes she is entitled to, the more assured McCain can become of being the next President.

This is pretty much how I feel about it, especially with Obama supporters... While some of his black support will rush to vote for Billary a lot will just stay home, same with a lot of Hillary support... Although I think it's a lot more likely that Obama could bring in Hill's support than she his...

bem401
03-26-2008, 01:23 PM
I think this has all worked out pretty well. McCain will be the next president, and that beats the hell out of Huckabee, though it would've been better if it was Ron Paul. I might actually vote for McCain in November, we'll see. I've been disenfranchised by the primary system (Oregon's primary isn't until May, at which point we might as well not have a primary at all) but I'm glad it looks like McCain.

And yes, he stands an excellent chance at two terms. If Hillary runs against him in 2012 she'll very likely get her ass handed to her again. I said several months ago that Americans would see a black male president long before we'd EVER see a female, and I'm right. Hillary's many flaws aside, sexism is just too deeply entrenched in our culture. Bill Clinton can do one thing and people praise him for his strength, and then Hillary can do exactly the same thing and people sneer, "What a bitch." And the fact that she IS an incompetent political hack doesn't help.

All this Democrat infighting is just fine with me. I can live with a President McCain.

I've often said " I could vote for a woman, just not that woman " and " I could vote vote for a Black guy, just not that Black guy". I did vote for Hillary as part of Operation Chaos a few weeks back, but it wasn't easy. I'm not going to count that as a real vote since it was really an attempt at sabotage.

Melonie
03-26-2008, 01:23 PM
McCain is indeed viewed as the least of three evils ... and even though he is 'least' objectionable he is still objectionable on a large number of issues. The 'tin foil hat' crowd would bet that McCain would not attempt to seek re-election in 2012 if he is elected in 2008, because his actual chances of re-election would be slim to none against any 'reasonably acceptable' future democratic contender.

Agreed on the double standard ... so what else is new ? You still don't see mainstream news reports about Barack Obama's Tony Rezko involvement (outside of Chicago anyhow). The latest development of course is that one of Rezko's former business partners is the son of the Nation of Islam's founder.



In conjunction with alleged financial associations with billionaire arab money launderer Nadhmi Auchi (which is receiving zero press coverage, but will come out at Rezko's trial), there appear to be a whole bunch of pertinent questions yet to be asked about Obama's supposed 'distance' from the Muslim cause.

(snip)"The details of the Obama-Rezko deal are astonishing and involve the purchase of Obama's Edwardian-style mansion in Kenwood, an up-scale section of Chicago where Nation of Islam Minister Louis Farrakhan also lives. When Obama sought to buy the grand house, the former owner refused to sell unless Obama also agreed to buy the adjoining land which Obama apparently could not afford. Obama's friend, Rezko, came to the rescue and bought the adjoining land for $625,000, even though the property could not be accessed from the public street. This cleared the way for Obama to buy the mansion for $1,650,000, about $300,000 less than the asking price. Then, six months later, Obama bought one-sixth of Rezko's property for $104,500. All of these financial dealings raise questions about whether Rezko subsidized the purchase of Obama's mansion in violation of ethical rules.

Also, campaign contribution records show that Rezko made substantial contributions to Obama's 2000 campaign for Congress. A recent report in a British newspaper, The Times, shows that in May 2005, Rezko was loaned $3.5 million by Fintrade Services, a Panamanian company controlled by Nadhmi Auchi, an Iraqi-born British billionaire. This is the undeclared loan that landed Obama's friend and bagman, Rezko, in jail."(snip)

from

All I can point out is that Scooter Libby received a ton of press coverage and wound up doing time for associations which are far less distressing !!!

Yekhefah
03-26-2008, 01:24 PM
I wish Christine Todd Whitman would run. Now THERE's a woman who might actually win.

bem401
03-26-2008, 01:33 PM
I wish Christine Todd Whitman would run. Now THERE's a woman who might actually win.


Doesn't she have some baggage though? As far as Black men are concerned, what about JC Watts? I think I could vote for him in an instant. I think the first female or Black President will have to come from the right side of the aisle. I think it will just prove too hard for someone who is female AND liberal or African-American AND liberal to win at this time.

And the idea of them teaming up is just ludicrous. First off, they hate each other and secondly, nobody but white males have ever been Pres. or Veep. That's too much change in one fell swoop. In any event, it appears Richardson sold out his former friends the Clintons because he'll be Obama's running mate.

miabella
03-26-2008, 02:07 PM
obama/richardson would be a winning ticket in the GE, and an interesting one.

mccain is a pretty weak candidate, but he is a white guy, even if he's an old and sickly-looking one who may have alzheimer's (this has been seriously suggested). it's a tough call. enough of the country is purple that obama could get 50 + 1 of the votes in many more states than either hillary or mccain.

of the three blind mice, i prefer obama because he'll just pull an fdr and try to create jobs for everyone. that's better than starting endless wars (mccain) or just power-grabbing (hillary). mccain can be taken to town pretty thoroughly on the 'iraq for 100 years!' thing.

2009 will be an interesting year, regardless of who wins the general.

bem401
03-26-2008, 03:35 PM
obama/richardson would be a winning ticket in the GE, and an interesting one.


of the three blind mice, i prefer obama because he'll just pull an fdr and try to create jobs for everyone. that's better than starting endless wars (mccain) or just power-grabbing (hillary). mccain can be taken to town pretty thoroughly on the 'iraq for 100 years!' thing.

.

I disagree. I think Obama and his associations scare a lot of (white) people. The very thought of Al Sharpton, Jeremiah Wright, Louis Farrakhan, et al.. being that close to the Oval Office will make it very hard for Obama to win.

As far as Obama doing any good for the country, you have to realize that everything he proposes costs a lot of money. Universal healthcare and free college are ridiculously impractical. I mean, really, do we want to turn over control of healthcare and higher education to the same government that has done what it's done to Social Security, Medicare, and primary and secondary education?

McCain's 100 yr. comment was only meant to stress that we have to successfully finish what we started. The other two can't surrender fast enough, though I am sure they are just pandering to their base.

miabella
03-26-2008, 05:41 PM
they wouldn't be. most of that stuff is rumor at best. and because obama actually responds to that kind of stuff (being a n00b politically), it's harder for it to stick. even the near-constant wright coverage hasn't killed him in the polls as it was predicted to.

hillary's bosnia lies are much more damning. as are her associations with The Family (which includes a buncha repubs anyhow). also, she and bill have connections to wright themselves...

as for your other comment, all three will send the country into an extended depression. the question is whether we'll have makework jobs during that time, go to war in 14 or so different countries, or declare hillary Queen of America with unlimited powers.

if i'm to live in an america that is more ruined than some banana republics, i'd rather take the makework jobs one than the other two, frankly. i won't need those jobs, but plenty of others will.

iraq was DUMB. just flat out stupid. finish what? telling a bunch of brown people they can't handle their own business when they were doing so just fine? instead of letting one group genocide another, genociding ALL of them? why would ANYONE want to finish that, or start it in the first place?

mccain is nuts. hillary is nuts. obama is nuts and means well. best of three, given all that.

remember, bill clinton unravelled the glass-steagall act, bringing about our current housing bubble crisis. i somehow doubt putting him back in office (even indirectly) is a win for anyone in america.

Melonie
03-26-2008, 10:13 PM
remember, bill clinton unravelled the glass-steagall act, bringing about our current housing bubble crisis. i somehow doubt putting him back in office (even indirectly) is a win for anyone in america.

Extremely valid point that many Americans conveniently forget ... that today's mortgage / banking crisis is arguably the direct outgrowth of Clinton era policies targeted to increase home ownership by 'poor' urban residents, whose comparatively low homeownership rates reflected their actual inability to afford home ownership !!! While the original intent was arguably noble, the unintended consequences have been devastating.

Barack Obama and Hilary are both proposing outrageously expensive gov't program changes in an arguable attempt to 'buy' votes. These run the gamut from national health care to the imposition of a 'carbon tax' to bailouts of low income homeowners to 'free' college tuition for low income students. However, an unintended side effect from attempting to fund all of these programs is that Americans earning more than $50k-$75k per year are suddenly considered to be 'rich', and will be taxed accordingly !

bem401
03-27-2008, 05:38 AM
I'm sure I'm not the only one who's seen this but a poll released yesterday indicated that 28% of Hillary supporters would go for McCain against Obama and 19% of Obama supporters would go for McCain against Clinton. Not to mention the people ( probably more so with Obama ) who will sit out the GE entirely if their person is out of the picture. Either way, it would seem to spell victory for McCain in November.

Melonie
03-27-2008, 09:48 AM
^^^ a McCain presidency would be a phyrric victory at best !!!!

Personally, I think we need Hilary as our next president, for reasons stated in other threads ... more Pork for New York, enough widespread voter total disgust with the results of four years worth of total majority Democratic policies by 2012 that a republican majority may be recaptured in the House and Senate ...

bem401
03-27-2008, 10:08 AM
enough widespread voter total disgust with the results of four years worth of total majority Democratic policies by 2012 that a republican majority may be recaptured in the House and Senate ...

Not to mention the White House.