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scarlett_vancouver
03-28-2008, 07:37 PM
Personally, I just wish people would stop trying to figure out who deserves what land based on the situation 50 years ago or 500 years ago or 5,000 years ago. Peacemakers have to be forward thinking. Just acknowledge that Israel is now a sovereign country, and Palestine needs to become one.


Great point.

Sh0t
03-28-2008, 10:24 PM
The problem with the idea of "If we don't take a role in world affairs, violence will escalate" is that it ignores history.

In most places where we are involved, we escalate the violence. South East Asia anyone? How about Indonesia? How about Iran and the Shah? Saddam in Iraq? Various juntas in Central and South America? And on and on.

This may upset some people but I think it needs to be said. The American political establishment is NOT a force for good. It is a selfish concentration of power that does not care about human life, despite the rhetoric of spreading democracy, human rights, pizza, etc.

Your government is evil and it spreads that evil throughout the world. The troops in the military are good people, but that doesn't mean anything because they don't set policy.

If you look at our foreign policy actions FOR REAL, and don't ignore the 95% of the bad ones to focus in on the good ones like dropping food in Africa, you see that it's mostly encouraging violence and death where it goes. Often to further somebody's specific economic interest.

The US military is(and always has been) the biggest source of corporate welfare. It's major purpose is to serve as a hired goon for politically connected big business. That was bad enough, but now of course we have the problem of it being a hired goon for big Zionism.

BrodieLux
03-28-2008, 10:27 PM
^^ I actually agree that the US military ought not to have anything to do with this one. Maybe even in diplomacy, since our good name has come to mean bad things, soiling the political goodwill of whoever embraces us. Maybe some other country with less baggage could step up to the plate.

Melonie
03-29-2008, 05:18 AM
Maybe some other country with less baggage could step up to the plate.

well, where the history of this portion of the middle east is concerned, which country might that be ? The UK, France, Italy, Germany, the Turks, the 'Persians', the Egyptians etc. all have a rich history of blood soaked 'meddling'.

In terms of 'major' powers, that basically leaves the Russians, the Indians and the Chinese.

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 08:28 AM
Sh0t says it's not about judaism. Perhaps that isn't the single problem, but it sure doesn't help. Maybe the Palestinians would be pissed even if you put a bunch of muslims where Israel is, but I kinda doubt it would be the same issue. Part of the Muslim's problem is they don't get along well with people of other religions,
It has nothing to do with Judaism. It has to do with the things that Israel does under the name of Judaism. You put any religious group in Palastine that does what the Israelis have done/are doing and you're going to see the same sentiments. Besides, there were Jews that lived in the Middle East pre-land-theft with "little if any conflict between them and the Arab population."

I don't think the Israelis get along with people of other religions.

hockeybobby
03-29-2008, 08:38 AM
It has nothing to do with Judaism. It has to do with the things that Israel does under the name of Judaism. You put any religious group in Palastine that does what the Israelis have done/are doing and you're going to see the same sentiments.

I don't think the Israelis get along with people of other religions.

Religion, at least the fundamentalist type, seems to mess things up way more than you would think it should. I mean, all the big organized religions have lofty values and principles. Their practice seems to get perverted along the way.

Z, cool new avatar.

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 08:41 AM
Religion, at least the fundamentalist type, seems to mess things up way more than you would think it should.
Yes it does. Including Jewish fundamentalism.

Thanks 'bout the avatar. :)

jester214
03-29-2008, 12:25 PM
It has nothing to do with Judaism. It has to do with the things that Israel does under the name of Judaism. You put any religious group in Palastine that does what the Israelis have done/are doing and you're going to see the same sentiments. Besides, there were Jews that lived in the Middle East pre-land-theft with "little if any conflict between them and the Arab population."

I don't think the Israelis get along with people of other religions.

"Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands.' Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them"

I guess those million or so Jews from other Arab countries gave up hundreds of millions of dollars in wealth and more land than is in Israel itself because the Arabs were treating them so nicely. I'm talking about people who held citizenship in the country they left. In the 1930's they started being discrimnated against on all levels, despite the fact they claimed loyalty.

But your probably right... These people who mostly opposed or were not active in zionism were probably persecuted till they fled the country for some reason other than there religion...

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 01:06 PM
"Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands.' Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them"
You don't think that the systematic torturing and murdering of the Arabs by the Israelis expresses the same violent, twisted mentality?


I guess those million or so Jews from other Arab countries gave up hundreds of millions of dollars in wealth and more land than is in Israel itself because the Arabs were treating them so nicely. I'm talking about people who held citizenship in the country they left. In the 1930's they started being discrimnated against on all levels, despite the fact they claimed loyalty.
I don't understand what you mean. Could you please elaborate on the first part? As far as Jews in Palestine being discriminated against in the thirties(I think that's what you mean there) by then a lot of damage had already been done to the Arabs by then. What discrimination do you mean?

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 01:07 PM
"[The Ottoman Land Code of 1858] required the registration in the name of individual owners of agricultural land, most of which had never previously been registered and which had formerly been treated according to traditional forms of land tenure, in the hill areas of Palestine generally masha'a, or communal usufruct. The new law meant that for the first time a peasant could be deprived not of title to his land, which he had rarely held before, but rather of the right to live on it, cultivate it and pass it on to his heirs, which had formerly been inalienable...Under the provisions of the 1858 law, communal rights of tenure were often ignored...Instead, members of the upper classes, adept at manipulating or circumventing the legal process, registered large areas of land as theirs...The fellahin [peasants] naturally considered the land to be theirs, and often discovered that they had ceased to be the legal owners only when the land was sold to Jewish settlers by an absentee landlord...Not only was the land being purchased; its Arab cultivators were being dispossessed and replaced by foreigners who had overt political objectives in Palestine." Rashid Khalidi, "Blaming The Victims," ed. Said and Hitchens


"The aim of the [Jewish National] Fund was `to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people.'...As early as 1891, Zionist leader Ahad Ha'am wrote that the Arabs "understood very well what we were doing and what we were aiming at'...[Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, stated] `We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly'...At various locations in northern Palestine Arab farmers refused to move from land the Fund purchased from absentee owners, and the Turkish authorities, at the Fund's request, evicted them...The indigenous Jews of Palestine also reacted negatively to Zionism. They did not see the need for a Jewish state in Palestine and did not want to exacerbate relations with the Arabs." John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 01:15 PM
The US/Israeli goverment uses antisemitism to manipulate and win sympathy for the 'plight of the Israelis.' Sure, there are going to be religious, racist, extremist zealots. They exist all over the world in every country hiding under the guise of all religions. It's like listening to a KKK member's religious ramblings about God and superiority of the white man. It could be pretty easy for a government that has control over the media/public perception to make it seem like we all think like that.

BrodieLux
03-29-2008, 01:24 PM
I don't think the Israelis get along with people of other religions.

I know you were making a point here, replying to someone who was trying to make that same point about Muslims, which is also stupid, but I am offended. First of all, it's easy to disprove this particular point and I'm sure you're aware of that. If taken to refer to the entire country, well obviously the US is primarily a Christian nation, and thats a counterpoint right there. And as much as the Jewish lobby in the US drives our Israel-friendly foreign policy, they are backed ideologically on this point by the fundamentalist Christians. If you mean Israelis as individuals, there are lots of stories of Palestinians and Israelis in the peace movement working together.

We need to stop making blanket generalizations about entire nations of individual people, each of whom have their own views, values, life experiences and personalities.

jester214
03-29-2008, 01:36 PM
You don't think that the systematic torturing and murdering of the Arabs by the Israelis expresses the same violent, twisted mentality?


I don't understand what you mean. Could you please elaborate on the first part? As far as Jews in Palestine being discriminated against in the thirties(I think that's what you mean there) by then a lot of damage had already been done to the Arabs by then. What discrimination do you mean?

That's not the question. You said it's not at all about Judiaism, that quote would beg to differ.

Sigh. The hundreds of thousands of jews who lived "peacfully" in other arabic countries. They gave up millions in wealth and tons of land running away from the Arab countries they "peacfully" lived in. Why did they do this? Because they were being discriminated against for being jewish. They weren't Israeli's, most of them were born in, and had citizenship in the country they lived in. Yet they still discriminated against because they were Jewish. You can't say it doesn't have anything to do with Judaism when these countries suddenly turned on the Jews who were citizens in there country.

jester214
03-29-2008, 01:39 PM
I know you were making a point here, replying to someone who was trying to make that same point about Muslims, which is also stupid.

Why is that stupid? Religous freedom is not tolerated in Muslim countries. Remember the Brit Teacher who got jailed for naming a class pet Muhammed? Nah, they probably did that because they're so open to religous freedom...

Israel is one of few countries in the middle east where you can freely and openly practice the religion of your choice. Many Arab Muslims have succeeded in their Government, since the conflict started.

BrodieLux
03-29-2008, 01:50 PM
Why is that stupid? Religous freedom is not tolerated in Muslim countries. Remember the Brit Teacher who got jailed for naming a class pet Muhammed? Nah, they probably did that because they're so open to religous freedom...

Israel is one of few countries in the middle east where you can freely and openly practice the religion of your choice. Many Arab Muslims have succeeded in their Government, since the conflict started.

Why is that stupid? Because you're making blanket generalizations about entire nations of individual people, each of whom have their own views, values, life experiences and personalities. That's why.
I sure as hell hope people in other countries don't assume I'm a George W. Bush clone just because he's president.

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 01:51 PM
Brodie, I didn't mean to make a generalization. I know there are plenty of Jews that do not support what Israel does. :)

BrodieLux
03-29-2008, 01:55 PM
^^Thanks. There are variations of dissent, too, I want to point out. I support Israel's existence. I just don't agree with the way it has gone about treating Palestinians. (I think that's what you meant, anyway, just sayin).

jester214
03-29-2008, 02:00 PM
Why is that stupid? Because you're making blanket generalizations about entire nations of individual people, each of whom have their own views, values, life experiences and personalities. That's why.
I sure as hell hope people in other countries don't assume I'm a George W. Bush clone just because he's president.

We're talking here in broad views and strokes. And as a whole muslims don't get along with other religions. I'm not talking about every Muslim person ever.

I say that's a stupid hope. For one it's an uneducated generalization about George Bush. Two, a large portion of people in other countries make huge "blanket generalizations" about you just for being an American.

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 02:00 PM
Why is that stupid? Religous freedom is not tolerated in Muslim countries.
Elaborate on "not tolerated,"


Israel is one of few countries in the middle east where you can freely and openly practice the religion of your choice.
Sure. I'm sure there's a lot of persecuted, tortured and murdered Arabs that would completely agree with this 'freedom.'


Many Arab Muslims have succeeded in their Government, since the conflict started.
Elaborate.

I am not condoning violence of any kind. And I'm not saying that the Arabs have not committed any. But people seem to fail to realize that there is a history to this and that what they see in their newspapers isn't credible. Things need to be looked at in context.

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 02:01 PM
And as a whole muslims don't get along with other religions. I'm not talking about every Muslim person ever.
I disagree.

jester214
03-29-2008, 02:04 PM
Elaborate on "not tolerated,"


Sure. I'm sure there's a lot of persecuted, tortured and murdered Arabs that would completely agree with this 'freedom.'


Elaborate.

I am not condoning violence of any kind. And I'm not saying that the Arabs have not committed any. But people seem to fail to realize that there is a history to this and that what they see in their newspapers isn't credible. Things need to be looked at in context.

Jesus, I just did elaborate, go and look at the story I put, that's just one of many.

What is that even supposed to mean? In Israel the law allows for people to be allowed to frelly practice religion. Be you Muslim, Jewish, or Christian. That is not tolerated or even allowed in many Arabic countries.

What do you want me to elaborate on? A particular name of a Muslim Arab who has succeeded in Jewish governmen?

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 02:05 PM
That's not the question. You said it's not at all about Judiaism, that quote would beg to differ.
Yes it very much is the question. And it's not all about Judaism. It's about Israel's policies and illegal actions.


The hundreds of thousands of jews who lived "peacfully" in other arabic countries. They gave up millions in wealth and tons of land running away from the Arab countries they "peacfully" lived in. Why did they do this? Because they were being discriminated against for being jewish. They weren't Israeli's, most of them were born in, and had citizenship in the country they lived in. Yet they still discriminated against because they were Jewish. You can't say it doesn't have anything to do with Judaism when these countries suddenly turned on the Jews who were citizens in there country.
I really don't understand this. Could you cite something? And what time period exactly are we talking about when "hundreds and thousands of Jews" fled to the mostly Arab land of Palestine? What countries are you talking about?

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 02:07 PM
Jesus, I just did elaborate, go and look at the story I put, that's just one of many.
Um....I did. Nothing is cleared up.


What is that even supposed to mean? In Israel the law allows for people to be allowed to frelly practice religion. Be you Muslim, Jewish, or Christian. That is not tolerated or even allowed in many Arabic countries.
Out of curiosity, how mant Middle Eastern countries is this not allowed in?

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 02:26 PM
What do you want me to elaborate on? A particular name of a Muslim Arab who has succeeded in Jewish governmen?
Yes actually. I don't think I've ever sat down and read about Muslim and Arabs as Israeli politicians.

jester214
03-29-2008, 02:34 PM
Agen, Algeria, Bahrain, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Syria,Tunisia, and Yemen had a combined Jewish population of around 800,000 Jews in 1948, the vast majority of these jews were born in there respective countries, and held citizenship. In these countries today, the Jewish population combined is under 10,000. Iran, Pakistan, and Turkey had another 80K in 1948, they are down to below 30K now. These jews in fleeing left behind hundreds of millions in wealth along with giving up ownership of more land than is in Israel when they fled the country.

You said "it had nothing to do with Judaism". I was responding specifically to that statement. So what they have done or not done to the Muslims really doesn't apply because it can't negate the fact.

Saudia Arabia does not allow open practice of religions other than Muslim. There is official and systematic discrimination agaisnt some religions. They also have laws that protect the Muslim faith, i.e. people not being able to name a pet Muhammed.

In Lebanon, certain government positions can only be held by Muslims.

In Syria freedom of religion is tolerated except in regards to Jews and extremist Islamic groups. Both of which are totally left out of government and open to discrimination.

Iraq freedom of religion is legally allowed, but is not commonly respected by the government or between citizens.

Egypt has freedom of religion and generally is pretty good about it. Although there have been forced conversion recorded and the Baha'i faith is not allowed to be practiced in the country. (Baha'i people are discrimnated against in most arab countries).

Palestine has no laws allowing freedom of religion.

Go walk around an Arab country, see how many Synagogues you see? (excluding Iran which has mutliple). Then go look in Israel for Mosques, you'll see many, along with Christian churces.

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 02:46 PM
Agen, Algeria, Bahrain, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Syria,Tunisia, and Yemen had a combined Jewish population of around 800,000 Jews in 1948, the vast majority of these jews were born in there respective countries, and held citizenship. In these countries today, the Jewish population combined is under 10,000. Iran, Pakistan, and Turkey had another 80K in 1948, they are down to below 30K now. These jews in fleeing left behind hundreds of millions in wealth along with giving up ownership of more land than is in Israel when they fled the country.
Do you mean that 800,000 Jews fled to Israel in 1948? And what is this about "hundreds of millions?"

I still think it's funny how you seem to think that Israel is the land of freedom. Like I said, go into Palestine and ask the inhabitants how free they feel.

jester214
03-29-2008, 02:48 PM
Yes actually. I don't think I've ever sat down and read about Muslim and Arabs as Israeli politicians.

I can give you specific names if you like, but this should do for now.

The Knesset is the legislature of Israel. Of the different parties that make up the Knesset, 3 of them are parties made up of Israeli-Arabs (non jews) and hold 10 seats in the legislature.

In contrast, Iran, a country that is arguably tolerant of the Jewish people has 1 seat out of 290 represented by the Jewish minority.

jester214
03-29-2008, 02:52 PM
Do you mean that 800,000 Jews fled to Israel in 1948? And what is this about "hundreds of millions?"

I still think it's funny how you seem to think that Israel is the land of freedom. Like I said, go into Palestine and ask the inhabitants how free they feel.

I mean from 1948 to 2000, 800,000 Jews fled from those states listed, they left behind hundreds of millions of dollards in property (no including land) behind. My point being they didn't all just decide they'd move and took there time. They were running. Not all went to Israel, for example many of the Jews in Morrocco went to France.

Yeah I think Israel is the best place to be if you want Religous freedom, atleast in the Middle East. In Israel I can sit down and read my bible next to a guy reading the Koran, no problem. In Saudia Arabia, I'd probably get my ass kicked, at the very least I would be deported.

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 02:52 PM
Israel and the Occupied Territories

International Religious Freedom Report 2005
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor


"Relations among religious groups—between Jews and non-Jews, between Muslims and Christians, between secular and religious Jews, and among the different streams of Judaism—often were strained. Tensions between Israeli Jews and Arabs increased significantly after the start of the Intifada in 2000 when Israeli police killed 12 Israeli-Arab demonstrators, prompting a 3-year public inquiry and investigation. The Orr Commission of Inquiry established to investigate the killings, found certain police officers guilty of wrongdoing, and concluded that the "Government's handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory," that it"did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action to allocate state resources in an equal manner." The results of the inquiry were still a matter of official deliberation and public debate at the end of the reporting period. While the Government has taken several steps to address these issues, tensions remained high due to institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens."

jester214
03-29-2008, 02:56 PM
Israel and the Occupied Territories

International Religious Freedom Report 2005
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor


"Relations among religious groups—between Jews and non-Jews, between Muslims and Christians, between secular and religious Jews, and among the different streams of Judaism—often were strained. Tensions between Israeli Jews and Arabs increased significantly after the start of the Intifada in 2000 when Israeli police killed 12 Israeli-Arab demonstrators, prompting a 3-year public inquiry and investigation. The Orr Commission of Inquiry established to investigate the killings, found certain police officers guilty of wrongdoing, and concluded that the "Government's handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory," that it"did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action to allocate state resources in an equal manner." The results of the inquiry were still a matter of official deliberation and public debate at the end of the reporting period. While the Government has taken several steps to address these issues, tensions remained high due to institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens."

Yeah discrimination is so bad. That's why they have Mosque's and seats in government... And are allowed legally allowed to practice their religion in the open. So what? So the article says things are perfect. Still a helluva lot better than bein a Jew in Saudia Arabia, or a christian for that matter.

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 02:59 PM
I mean from 1948 to 2000, 800,000 Jews fled from those states listed, they left behind hundreds of millions of dollards in property (no including land) behind. My point being they didn't all just decide they'd move and took there time. They were running. Not all went to Israel, for example many of the Jews in Morrocco went to France.
Hell, I would've fled too with Israelis giving my religion a bad name causing mass antisemitism. I am more curious about the "hundreds of millions." I'm also glad to see that they would then know how it felt for the Palestinians that were forced to flee and subjected to massacres.


In Israel I can sit down and read my bible next to a guy reading the Koran, no problem.
You've been to Israel?

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 03:01 PM
Yeah discrimination is so bad. That's why they have Mosque's and seats in government... And are allowed legally allowed to practice their religion in the open. So what? So the article says things are perfect. Still a helluva lot better than bein a Jew in Saudia Arabia, or a christian for that matter.
Yeah, it really is. I would not want to be a Muslim in Israel. Hell on earth.
But hey, because Saudi Arabia does not practice freedom of religion, who cares what happens with the Palestinians! ::)

What 'perfection?'

Sh0t
03-29-2008, 03:03 PM
I've been there. Bad food, hot women

Let's also be careful with Arab versus Muslim. Iranian is not Arab. It's Persian.

And there are lots of Arab Christians. Over 10 million of them. And guess which countries have the highest percentages of Arab Christians? Palestine and Lebanon, two countries Israeli has maintained occupations over, past or present.

Iraq, for sample, had the Assyrian Christians, probably the oldest Christian group in the world. Some of the first to embrace Christ. Axis of Evil Syria has a 10% Christian population.


A lot of jews did leave Arab countries for Israel(not nearly as many as from East and West Europe, however). I can't figure out why so much is made of the supposed value of the property they left behind.

Most of the immigration(and violent reasons for it) started in 48, when tensions rose tremendously because of what was going on in newly formed Israel with regards to Palestine and the Arab invasion. The political status of these Arab countries was also in flux, some were still under British and French yokes. Some of the emigration was state enforced, as well.

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 03:04 PM
The Knesset is the legislature of Israel. Of the different parties that make up the Knesset, 3 of them are parties made up of Israeli-Arabs (non jews) and hold 10 seats in the legislature.
Ah yes, and we all know how effective it has been.

I remember reading about Ghaleb Majadele also. ::)

jester214
03-29-2008, 03:05 PM
Yeah, it really is. I would not want to be a Muslim in Israel. Hell on earth.
But hey, because Saudi Arabia does not practice freedom of religion, who cares what happens with the Palestinians! ::)

What 'perfection?'

This is ridiculous. I beat you over the head with examples and you just ignore it... Why even bother anymore... Yeah I'd hate to be a Muslim too, many being able to vote, have a seat in congress, those things fucking blow!

I'm done with you now.

jester214
03-29-2008, 03:08 PM
A lot of jews did leave Arab countries for Israel(not nearly as many as from East and West Europe, however). I can't figure out why so much is made of the supposed value of the property they left behind.


What do you mean? Are you saying "so much" as in a big deal, or "so much" as in you think the value is inflated?

As regards to a big deal, because it shows they didn't just decide to move elsewhere to see how things were. If they had they would have taken/sold their property.

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 03:10 PM
This is ridiculous. I beat you over the head with examples and you just ignore it... Why even bother anymore... Yeah I'd hate to be a Muslim too, many being able to vote, have a seat in congress, those things fucking blow!
When I wanted examples, I meant legitimate examples.


Being an Arab in Palestine, another day in paradise:


Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip live in an odd and oppressive limbo. They have no nation, no citizenship, and no ultimate power over their own lives.
Since 1967, when Israel conquered these areas (the final 22 percent of mandatory Palestine), Palestinians have been living under Israeli military occupation. While in some parts Israel has allowed a Palestinian “autonomous” entity to take on such municipal functions as education, health care, infrastructure and policing, Israel retains overall power.
According to international law, an occupying force is responsible for the protection of the civilian population living under its control. Israel, however, ignores this requirement, routinely committing violations of the Geneva Conventions, a set of principles instituted after World War II to ensure that civilians would “never again” suffer as they had under Nazi occupation. Israel is one of the leading violators of these conventions today.
Israeli forces regularly confiscate private land; imprison individuals without process – including children – and physically abuse them under incarceration; demolish family homes; bulldoze orchards and crops; place entire towns under curfew; destroy shops and businesses; shoot, maim, and kill civilians – and Palestinians are without power to stop any of it.
When a child is arrested, for example – often by a group of armed soldiers in the middle of the night – parents can do nothing. Knowing that their son is most likely being beaten by soldiers on the way to the station, stripped and humiliated in prison, quite likely physically abused in multiple additional ways, and destined to be held – perhaps in isolation – for days, week, or months (all before a trial has even taken place), parents are without the ability to protect their child. Quite often, in fact, they cannot even visit him.
Finally, when the military trial under which their son is to be sentenced – often to years (sometimes decades) in prison – all they can do is hire a lawyer whose efforts, at best, will reduce the ultimate sentence by a few months. Rarely, if ever, can even the most skilled lawyer do more than afford the child a friendly face in court and be an outside witness to the injustice of the proceedings. Meanwhile, the presence of such a lawyer provides Israel cover for its “judicial system.”
Perhaps most significant – and rarely understood by people in the outside world – is the fact that Palestinians live, basically, in a prison in which Israel holds the keys.
They cannot leave Gaza or the West Bank unless Israeli guards allow them to. If they have been allowed out, they cannot return to their homes and families unless Israeli guards permit it.
Frequently, in both cases, Israel refuses such permission.
Academics invited to attend conferences abroad, high school students given US State Department scholarships to study in the United States, mothers wishing to visit daughters abroad, American citizens returning to their families, humanitarians bringing wheelchairs – the list goes on almost without limit – have all been denied permission by Israel to leave or enter their own land.

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 03:15 PM
What do you mean? Are you saying "so much" as in a big deal, or "so much" as in you think the value is inflated?
Both for me actually.

As regards to a big deal, because it shows they didn't just decide to move elsewhere to see how things were. If they had they would have taken/sold their property.
Can you please cite this? I am honestly very curious.

jester214
03-29-2008, 03:16 PM
Hell, I would've fled too with Israelis giving my religion a bad name causing mass antisemitism. I am more curious about the "hundreds of millions." I'm also glad to see that they would then know how it felt for the Palestinians that were forced to flee and subjected to massacres.


You've been to Israel?

I know I said I was going to be done, but I missed this. Yes I have been to Israel. I wanted to see what it was like and visit a few of the religous site out of curiosity. One day I'll try a few of the other countries and then I can give you an even better perspective.

I still maintain that the non-jews I met in Israel were happy and content.

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 03:20 PM
Okay. Have fun in Gaza for me!

Sh0t
03-29-2008, 03:21 PM
I'd give away my "right" to vote right now for no taxes. That shit is nothing to me. same with a seat in Congress. I'd give up my 'right' to run for office for being able to opt-out of Social Security.

People could vote in the USSR.

What I mean regarding the supposed value of the Jewish emigrants from Arab countries is why is that a big deal in this case, but rarely mentioned we talk about to other mass abandonments of property. Happened to a lot of the Palestinians.

Never Forget Rachel Corrie!

jester214
03-29-2008, 03:24 PM
Both for me actually.

Can you please cite this? I am honestly very curious.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1195127517604&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

According to that it was $300 billion left behind.

Heres and interesting article on the subject

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/04/america/nations.php

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 03:33 PM
Hmmm....

"The first UN General Assembly resolution--Number 194- affirming the right of Palestinians to return to their homes and property, was passed on December 11, 1948. It has been repassed no less than twenty-eight times since that first date. Whereas the moral and political right of a person to return to his place of uninterrupted residence is acknowledged everywhere, Israel has negated the possibility of return... [and] systematically and juridically made it impossible, on any grounds whatever, for the Arab Palestinian to return, be compensated for his property, or live in Israel as a citizen equal before the law with a Jewish Israeli." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 03:35 PM
"The fact that the Arabs fled in terror, because of real fear of a repetition of the 1948 Zionist massacres, is no reason for denying them their homes, fields and livelihoods. Civilians caught in an area of military activity generally panic. But they have always been able to return to their homes when the danger subsides. Military conquest does not abolish private rights to property; nor does it entitle the victor to confiscate the homes, property and personal belongings of the noncombatant civilian population. The seizure of Arab property by the Israelis was an outrage." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

"The winter of 1949, the first winter of exile for more than seven hundred fifty thousand Palestinians, was cold and hard...Families huddled in caves, abandoned huts, or makeshift tents...Many of the starving were only miles away from their own vegetable gardens and orchards in occupied Palestine - the new state of Israel...At the end of 1949 the United Nations finally acted. It set up the United Nations Relief and Works Administration (UNRWA) to take over sixty refugee camps from voluntary agencies. It managed to keep people alive, but only barely." "Our Roots Are Still Alive" by The Peoples Press Palestine Book Project.

Zinaida
03-29-2008, 03:56 PM
One more!!

Was Palestine the only, or even preferred, destination of Jews facing persecution when the Zionist movement started?

"The pogroms forced many Jews to leave Russia. Societies known as 'Lovers of Zion,' which were forerunners of the Zionist organization, convinced some of the frightened emigrants to go to Palestine. There, they argued, Jews would rebuild the ancient Jewish 'Kingdom of David and Solomon,' Most Russian Jews ignored their appeal and fled to Europe and the United States. By 1900, almost a million Jews had settled in the United States alone." "Our Roots Are Still Alive" by The People Press Palestine Book Project.

BrodieLux
03-29-2008, 04:04 PM
It would be more a productive use of everyone's time here if we used our different contexts as a launchpad to discuss possible solutions. Chinese fingertrap again. :)

scarlett_vancouver
03-30-2008, 04:30 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Pappe

Casual Observer
03-30-2008, 06:43 AM
The Jewish people want a compromise, and want to live in peace with their neighbors. The Islamic world, on the other hand, wants all the Jews dead. Those are conflicting goals that cannot be rectified.

Compromise? Like telling the US--its ostensible peace broker in the region--that they'll stop the expansion of settlements on Palestinian territory, while they routinely do the inverse? Please. There is a large portion of Israel's population that would like to make a land-for-peace deal, but the ideologues in the country won't permit it.

If they don't want to compromise, that's fine. But the US should get the hell out of that situation and stop pretending we're neutral or actually interested in a just resolution of the conflict.

LadyLuck
03-30-2008, 04:42 PM
Zinaida's siggy link is mind-blowing in the saddest way possible. Anyone concerned or interested in this subject needs to read through it. If there was any doubt as to who are the real victims and who are the aggressors will become crystal clear.

scarlett_vancouver
03-30-2008, 06:14 PM
^ no kidding, wow. Thanks for linking that Zinaida.