View Full Version : An Israel/Zionism thread
jester214
03-30-2008, 07:03 PM
^^^If you're gonna read that, make sure you also read something for the other side too, that things isn't exactly "bias free"...
Besides if Americans knew nothing would change...
jester214
03-30-2008, 07:04 PM
Zinaida's siggy link is mind-blowing in the saddest way possible. Anyone concerned or interested in this subject needs to read through it. If there was any doubt as to who are the real victims and who are the aggressors will become crystal clear.
Do you listen to yourself? No one can be called a "victim" when they practice suicide bombing on complete innocents...
scarlett_vancouver
03-30-2008, 07:50 PM
^^^If you're gonna read that, make sure you also read something for the other side too, that things isn't exactly "bias free"...
Besides if Americans knew nothing would change...
Soo...post a resource then.
Zinaida
03-30-2008, 08:48 PM
Thanks guys. I am so glad you read it. :)
Zinaida
03-30-2008, 08:49 PM
Do you listen to yourself? No one can be called a "victim" when they practice suicide bombing on complete innocents...
I think you need to do some reading. Talk about bias.
RandomUser
03-31-2008, 07:09 PM
I wish them the best but it is a death cult in Gaza
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1729.htm
Their status quo ain't gonna work
RandomUser
03-31-2008, 07:13 PM
Micheal Totten is a middle of the roader i respect a lot and he has a lot of valuable insite on the middle east in general. Travels broadly there, loves the people, wants peace, recognizes reality and asks questions.
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/01/a-solution-for.php
jester214
03-31-2008, 07:23 PM
Soo...post a resource then.
A source of propaganda bullshit? Ok.
http://factsofisrael.com/blog/index.php
Go look at that "if america knew"... Read the "about us" section... The site is completley bias.
Personally I'm not bias, I think the whole thing is fucked up on both sides. I just don't want people going and reading one website that manipulates numbers and facts so only one side looks bad.
jester214
03-31-2008, 07:25 PM
I think you need to do some reading. Talk about bias.
You post that link, and you call me bias? Either you don't know what the word means or you really don't know much about the conflict.
Yekhefah
03-31-2008, 09:38 PM
I've excused myself from this discussion because it was only going to get me written off as a racist, but I just had to pipe in and agree with this...
No one can be called a "victim" when they practice suicide bombing on complete innocents...
That's for damn sure. The so-called "Palestinian" movement lost ALL claims to legitimacy on the day that Hamas became a democratically elected government. In my opinion, Israel needs to crack down much harder.
LadyLuck
03-31-2008, 11:54 PM
Ok, so "real victims" was not the best choice of words on my part since there are many (waaaay too many) actual innocent victims on both sides. Neither side is exempt from having victims. My apology if I offended anyone by not being more accurate in my previous post.
What I was getting at though is that one side has ALOT more victims than the other. And to me anyway, one side is much more the aggressor. Especially when looked at in terms of who is in violation of the UN resolution #194.
In general and regardless of religon or race or what have you- I believe that it's wrong to occupy land in another country by force in violation of the UN.
That is the end of what I am going to say here because I like Yek's posts and I am realy not looking to get on her bad side. That is if I haven't already :(
Zinaida
04-01-2008, 03:34 AM
Do you listen to yourself? No one can be called a "victim" when they practice suicide bombing on complete innocents...
Jester, you crack me up.
Zinaida
04-01-2008, 03:38 AM
You post that link, and you call me bias? Either you don't know what the word means or you really don't know much about the conflict.
Yeah. Documentation, international law, numbers....who cares about that stuff. Let's just ignore all that. ::)
scarlett_vancouver
04-01-2008, 05:04 AM
A source of propaganda bullshit? Ok.
http://factsofisrael.com/blog/index.php
Go look at that "if america knew"... Read the "about us" section... The site is completley bias.
Personally I'm not bias, I think the whole thing is fucked up on both sides. I just don't want people going and reading one website that manipulates numbers and facts so only one side looks bad.
I actually found the 'if americans knew' site to be relatively un-biased. All the sources were impeccably referenced, and there were links to pro-Israel sites.
What exactly did you find offensive and biased (quote or link specifics, please)?
Zinaida
04-01-2008, 05:07 AM
Didn't you know? Anything that defends the Arabs is biased. :D
Zinaida
04-01-2008, 05:12 AM
"Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands.' Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them"
Israeli Rabbi Ovadia Yosef 2001 Passover sermon: "May the Holy Name visit retribution on the Arab heads, and cause their seed to be lost, and annihilate them....It is forbidden to have pity on them. We must give them missiles with relish, annihilate them. Evil ones, damnable ones."
Jester it's not black and white/good guys vs the bad guys. Sorry.
scarlett_vancouver
04-01-2008, 05:59 AM
I've excused myself from this discussion because it was only going to get me written off as a racist, but I just had to pipe in and agree with this...
That's for damn sure. The so-called "Palestinian" movement lost ALL claims to legitimacy on the day that Hamas became a democratically elected government. In my opinion, Israel needs to crack down much harder.
I don't think you're racist for your beliefs, and I'd like to think that we could have 180 degree different opinions on this topic, and still hold respect for one another.
I just REALLY want to know. I want to understand the pro-Israel side, because right now, I don't.
I wonder if anyone can answer, in a non-angry way, why they believe it was right that Palestine should have been divided into Palestinian and Israeli states in the first place, and why it's right that the original divisions designated by the UN have since been ignored.
Zinaida
04-01-2008, 06:39 AM
Or the reason/need for the creation of Israel period.
Don't be afraid of being labeled a racist. Just keep it real. What's so bad about being a racist anyway if that's your real belief?
The thing is, it has nothing to do with race, on either side. It's a property dispute.
To me it's rather funny when I see Israel deploying Merkava IV tanks, Apaches, and Zeldas while the Palestinians are fighting with rocks, stolen weapons, and suicide bombers. People usually aren't willing to fight that hard unless it's something legitimate they are fighting for(survival in their case).
As far as Hamas goes, let us not forget Israel's role in Hamas's rise. They were hoping Hamas would be a counter to the PLO, which was(in Likud eyes) incorrigible.
Anybody who thinks Zionism is a clear "Good side" must really be loony. Zionists are even evil to OTHER JEWS, much less gentiles or heathen Arabs.
From the authors Jester has listed, he really hasn't read anything of the "other side". Or just read stuff from foreigners. They don't care either way, outside of finding it entertaining that Rome(Washington DC) is at the behest of Jerusalem(Tel Aviv).
You can find all sorts of wild sayings on either side. Most Israelis and most Palestinians are moderate, so reaching into the pile of discarded quotes is going to be a silly exercise and is usually the tactic of the desperate.
Hamas won because it is popular in Palestinian because it does extensive humanitarian works within the "country". It is not merely a "terrorist" organization. Hamas is basically the Palestinian version of the Israeli Likud party. They have the exact same beliefs reflected on each other with regard to the other: Nationalism and "there can be no peace with THAT enemy." Moderates in both countries want a negotiated peace. The Likud and Hamas think that is impossible.
To use Yekefah's criteria, I lose all respect for Israeli every time a Likud member is elected to parliament or executive office.
To quote Hamas propaganda: "The Suicide Bomber is the F-16 of our Resistance". I agree with them. Israel has and uses F-16s(among a slew of other high tech, American sponsored weaponry, to enforce its empire. The Palestinians have very few nice runways, but they do have bodies, so suicide bombing it is.
What boggles me is why are American's defending Israel so feverently? What exactly is it that motivates you? Are you a Zionist Jew with intentions on returning to Israel? Do you really feel your tax money is well spent in subsidizing Israeli violence? Why should we bribe several Arab countries so they play nice with Israel? etc, etc. I'm all for letting the Palestinians and Israelis fight to the death, but again I ask the important question:
Why Should I be Involved? Why should my wallet be involved and potentially my life? Why should we allow AIPAC to be as influential as it is in American Politics?
The term "special interest group" is rarely used when referring Israeli lobbyists, but I think it certainly applies.
Are any of you Israeli defenders familiar with the name Mordechai Vanunu?
Both sides kill innocents. It's just that when Israel does it, people defend it behind claims of "collateral damage", a wonderful term. I don't see why it's so much better to kill thousands of innocent people "by accident" than to kill a few hundred "on purpose." Killing is killing to me. I'm quite familiar with it. Whether that shell hit the right spot or not, bodies still go flying in the air, dismembering themselves as they land.
People tend to want revenge for things like that.
jester214
04-01-2008, 10:32 AM
Israeli Rabbi Ovadia Yosef 2001 Passover sermon: "May the Holy Name visit retribution on the Arab heads, and cause their seed to be lost, and annihilate them....It is forbidden to have pity on them. We must give them missiles with relish, annihilate them. Evil ones, damnable ones."
Jester it's not black and white/good guys vs the bad guys. Sorry.
I know reading is rough for you, but go look at my post #110. Try and find the spot where I think things are fucked up on both sides. You call me bias, but I havne't head you say much about the actions of Palestine... Oh wait, they're not doing anything it's those evil Jews, right?
jester214
04-01-2008, 10:45 AM
I actually found the 'if americans knew' site to be relatively un-biased. All the sources were impeccably referenced, and there were links to pro-Israel sites.
What exactly did you find offensive and biased (quote or link specifics, please)?
The site in it's presentation alone is bias. It is obviously anti-Israel. Where are the numbers for suicide bombings? I see a number for prisoners being held, wheres the number for prisoner executed or Prisoners held illegally? They aren't there, because the chart would be reversed.
The site lists all the atrocities practised by Israel, but barely mentions the fact that Palestineans practice suicide bombings on civilians. When they do mention it, they actually use a comparative to Pearl Harbor in the same sentence.
Maybe their charts are "impeccably referenced" but a lot of the other stuff isn't.
The stuff about the media being distorted, and we're being lied too... They just say it, sure it's not prefect but aren't they doing the same thing?
Some of this site is not all bad, specifically those numbers are very interesting. But still, the site is blatantly bias. If you read the entire site, what could a person possible think other than "OMG we fund these terrible people who murder and kill rampantly so they can have more and more land". No matter what the case is, that isn't true.
jester214
04-01-2008, 10:57 AM
I wonder if anyone can answer, in a non-angry way, why they believe it was right that Palestine should have been divided into Palestinian and Israeli states in the first place, and why it's right that the original divisions designated by the UN have since been ignored.
In my opinion it wasn't right, there are a ton of reasons but they weren't really good ones. I think the original divisions have been ignored for a couple of reasons, one because Israeli could take it and like all countries "new" countires they were greed. Also because the Palestineans and the surrounding Arab countries couldn't control themselves and gave Israel reasons for taking the land.
Bottom line, both sides have acted poorly.
scarlett_vancouver
04-01-2008, 12:45 PM
Also because the Palestineans and the surrounding Arab countries couldn't control themselves and gave Israel reasons for taking the land.
What does this mean? I don't understand.
Zinaida
04-01-2008, 02:17 PM
It is obviously anti-Israel.
Whoa, really? Gee you're sharp.
Zinaida
04-01-2008, 02:19 PM
Also because the Palestineans and the surrounding Arab countries couldn't control themselves and gave Israel reasons for taking the land.
What?! --I mean:
Please elaborate.
RandomUser
04-01-2008, 02:20 PM
I know I am being picky.
You can find all sorts of wild sayings on either side. Most Israelis and most Palestinians are moderate, so reaching into the pile of discarded <b>quotes</b> is going to be a silly exercise and is usually the tactic of the desperate.
.......
To <b>quote</b> Hamas propaganda: "The Suicide Bomber is the F-16 of our Resistance". I agree with them. Israel has and uses F-16s(among a slew of other high tech, American sponsored weaponry, to enforce its empire. The Palestinians have very few nice runways, but they do have bodies, so suicide bombing it is.
Quote above is to Shot. rest here is just my opinion.
Egypt just needs to open it's border with gaza and Israel needs to accept an airport and a seaport in gaza.
Hamas is still a death cult rearing it's young like Hitler youth. Israel is not. Kids are not valued by the palestinian government. It's a facist society with scarce human values.
The root problem in gaza is corruption. Hamas was supposed to be the cure for that.
Have things changed since ww II or since 1967? I would say yes. Israel's neighbors have become more moderate. Iran has proxied into Lebanon and Gaza to fight the west. That area has become more violent.
Hamas can stop firing rockets tomorrow and if they represent the whole of Gaza there will be peace. They will have open borders and happy kids. However they still cling to the notion that the only good jew is a dead jew. yah you might find a likud members replying in the reverse. But extremists in Israel are marginalized like in a grown civilization. In Gaza they are glorified.
Death Cult. There are many reasonable people who can accept a Hamas death cult because they have that inner jewish block. Convienent. History does repeat itself. Memri TV can be browsed for how the area educates itself.
RandomUser
04-01-2008, 02:29 PM
I don't think it's an April Fools days joke . Right out of the NYtimes
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/01/world/middleeast/01hamas.html?ex=1364702400&en=328554ebe6d51174&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all
Hamas -- clearly wrong. They have an Iman right out of the Rev. Wright playbook.
Jay Zeno
04-01-2008, 02:49 PM
Enough of the "you can't read" and "aren't you sharp." Let's debate the issues. Site rules apply in Member Boards.
Thank you.
Hamas won't stop firing anything until Israel tears down the walls and removes their troops for OCCUPIED territory, hence the name "Occupied Terrorities".
To say Hamas is a "death cult" is to surely ignore the majority of what they do. "Terrorism" is a small part of what makes up "Hamas." The other 80% is why the Palestinians turn to them when they feel more desperate.
Hamas leaders wouldn't be the first ones to make such comments about Jews, especially if ones are referring to Israelis. Their experience with such people is a lot different form our own, so they are much more bitter about it.
That whole article is exactly what you'd expect from a group that sees itself as a freedom fighting movement, and in SOME areas, that's what it is. Hamas is not made up of receive immigrants from heaven, but they have some legitimate beefs with Israel, as representatives of the Palestinians. But, as I mentioned above in my comparison of Hamas and the Likud party, they are extremists, and racists to a degree. Hamas was bred from Israeli actions. Overcompensation.
The root problem in Gaza is Israeli troops. To say it's corruption and ignore the foreign army there is to me a bit silly.
Israel has its own death cults, but instead of suicide bombers, they use regular bombers, gunships, tanks, etc. Killing is killing. Worshiping the killing of one Semite group is no better than worshiping the killing of another Semite group.
And to bring it up ONCE again, as I will in every post made, I don't really care if they fight teach other, but why do I have to participate in it? Why does my money have to go to Israel and umpteen many other countries to bribe them to be nice to Israel?
All I want is for the US to get out of that entangling "alliance' with a back stabbing FOREIGN country, so that my tax money won't go to subsidizing Israeli violence against anybody. I feel this way about all foreign aid.
Zinaida
04-01-2008, 07:00 PM
Enough of the "you can't read" and "aren't you sharp." Let's debate the issues. Site rules apply in Member Boards.
Thank you.
Haha sorry, lack of sleep is making me...more like me. Never a pretty thing. :-[
RandomUser
04-01-2008, 07:25 PM
Israel isn't in Gaza, they and Egypt just have it surrounded. To try and avoid the death cult tag is to ignore kindergarten classes in both cultures. Peace is planned in Israel schools, Death is planned in Hamas led schools. Hamas indoctrinates their kids to kill and hate at a young age. The whole Hamas approach is to make killers and haters of their babies. Their peaceful efforts are meant to eventually stir a deeper hatred not support peace. It is a death cult with all the glorious trappings.
The palestinians are a manipulated people without any significant freedoms. I am sure most of them want no war, but are being trapped by the wolves amongst them. The surest way to get rid of those wolves is to not feed them. Open the border to Egypt, let them import all the weapons they want.
Yassar died a billionaire. Little of his aid money went to help people as it served his purposed to have people poor and miserable and blaming the jews. The same for Hamas except they want to replace the Yassar corruption with an extreme Islamic purity where jews are dogs and pigs to be killed at will. Death Cult.... No amount of feinted good will stop them from being a death cult.
There were large numbers of people that didn't want to fight the Revolutionary War, The Civil War, WW I, WW II. We would be poorer as a humanity if we didn;t step up and do the right thing. The right thing here is to recognize that the world has persecuted jews for centuries. It is a small but graceful nothing for the Arab League to recognize Israel as the Jewish State and home. 1,500,000 jewish kids killed by the anti-zionists.
Hamas won't stop firing until there is no Israel. They have it as a policy statement. They do not want Israel to have a defensible border. They are a proxy for the militant version of Islam out of Iran. As I have said continously, they can stop killing Israelis tomorrow and there will be piece. The same can't be said for Israel. It's a death cult that is going to need to be defeated and re educated. The pressure for that is going to have to come from Arab neighbors.
The UN mandated that there was to be both Palestinian and Jewish states after the British left. This was objectionable to the Arab countries in the region who rejected the UN mandate and persued several wars of extinction against Israel. But fortunately were defeated.
For me, to support anything Hamas would be like supporting Pol Pot.
Eric Stoner
04-02-2008, 11:32 AM
Enough of the "you can't read" and "aren't you sharp." Let's debate the issues. Site rules apply in Member Boards.
Thank you.
They do ? REALLY ? Does that include when someone tosses insults at me or calls me names ? Just curious.
Jay Zeno
04-03-2008, 04:37 AM
There's been confusion about that in the past. I happened to look in this thread and thought I'd note the fact.
Again I bring you back to an understanding of Hamas.
Hamas is not one monolithic institution that preaches death. It is several entities joined together. A military wing(the part most people understand) and a huge humanitarian and political wing which is sometimes out of harmony with the military wing.
Our Revolutionary War was quite popular actually. The myth of it not being in much favor came from a misunderstanding of a John Adam's letter which has been pretty well overturned.
As far as the Civil War, WWI and WWII, I'm one to agree they shoudln't have been fought(in the case of WWI,WWII, at least not by americans.)
There was no "good" stepping up there, unless you mean the South repelling invasion, which I agree with.
And again, on a short enough time line, you can easily make Israel seem like the clear good guy, or vice versa. Neither view is correct.
I also said "occupied territories", not Gaza. Israel is still in the West Bank and Golan Heights, and encircles Gaza even if it has pulled back some due to Sharon's internal problems before.
The US gives Israel more support and weapons than iran gives to anybody, Palestinian or otherwise.
And again, the whole "they want to destroy all jews" thing is more anti-semitic baiting shit.
If you don't kowtow an agenda held by some jews, you are the next incarnation of the Holocaust.
You even went so far as to blame "anti-zionists" which is another example of the attempted blending between jewish and zionist, which are quite different. Especially Zionist with a capital Z, which represent a very specific school of thought and political membership.
The whole idea of "When they stop killing Israelis" goes back to my time line issue. And Hamas will stop fighting when their is peace because then their would be little reason to support their military wing. Such waning of support has happened many times before, and when it does, as if by clockwork, Israel does something over-the-top which gets people to get behind the military wing of Hamas again.
As far as "wars of extinction" against Israel, I'd love to know what you are reading.
The 49 war would be the only one that comes even close to such a title. And if we want to be a bit anal about it, we might also point out that the Arab invasions were into the territory promised in the two-state solution(which they disagreed with, however).
The Suez canal Crisis was Israel attacking Egypt in response to Egypt's disallowance of Israeli shipping through its territory.
The Six Day war was initiated by Israel, as Egypt once again disallowed Israeli shipping through its territory. This is the war that brings us into the modern age of what we call Israel and Palestine(the so-called post and pre 67 border worlds).
The War of Attrition was fought because of the occupation of the Sinai by Israel.
The Yum Kippur/October War was fought to retake the Sinai and Golan Heights
If trying to win back territory lost in the Six Day war counts as wars of extinction, then I dunno what else can be said because that seems a bit nutty to me.
Not to mention that the Attraction and Yum Kippur wars were also proxy wars between the US and Soviet Union through Israeli and Egypt respectively.
One of of the major characteristics of the Yum Kippur war was it was one of the few of Israel that didn't have a preemptive strike by Israel, a policy we still see in effect to this day.
A contrived non-preemption we know, hoping as they were advised no US aid would be coming if they started the war. It also had many illustrations for the wagging of the US dog by the Israeli tail due to the threat of escalation from both sides. Worthy of a few read books just on this one month, October 1973.
Then we have a strike by Israel on Iraqi nuclear power plants, done with US made aircraft, of course. Operation opera, which made Ilan Ramon famous. It helped get Begin re-elected a few months later, too, which is always helpful. The Likud marches on.
Israel has worn the "Preemptive Self Defense" argument so thin, they make the Nazis seem reasonable.
Then we have the First invasion of Lebanon in 1982, there goes that trend of Arabs invading Israel again. Going back we bit, we have the attempted assassination of an israeli diplomat, but before that we have Israeli air raids on palestinian locations in south Lebanon.
Then we have 86 in Tunisia, another Israeli air raid, though we can arguably say this was somewhat reaction as a response to the PLO actions, but then we have to refer back to my timeline problem, because the PLO action was a reaction to the war in Lebanon.
Do we have to even get into the late 80s,90s, and 2000?
My point in all this is that that kind of phrase like "wars of extinction" are only going to work on the completely ignorant. I would argue they are only used by the totally ignorant as well, but that might violate site rules.
Some key features of the original partition plan are worth noting to maybe explain why some people feel they were cheated.
It gave 56 percent of the land to 32% of the people(the Israeli Jews). This was a major point of contention for the Arabs. A lot of that land includes the Negev Desert, which is not friendly for human living, but has some worth for other reasons. Then we have the problem of assigning areas of Palestinian for the jewish state in which Palestinian(modern day understanding) population percentages were sometimes as high as 40+ percent. Yea. Even Gurion noticed this and thought it terribly(from the other side of the fence, as too small a Jewish majority).
The UN mandate was almost laughed at by the Zionists because it gave them too little(in their view, which was not the popular view even among the Jews there, btw) and similarly opposed by the Arabs because it gave the Jews far too much(in THEIR view). It also broke the idea of supporting self-rule as decided on by the population. If this was done, we can clearly see the mandated solution was not to be. From 1942-3 on, the Zionist plan was a to make Palestine a Jewish state, not a Jewish state within Palestine, as has been nicely phrased.
The Arab invasion into Palestine did not occur out of a vacuum in 1948, as I believe many think it did. There were so many events in a short period of time, it requires a lot to digest the situation. I can already hear the cries of "trust me, I am well informed on this, bla bla" but I seriously doubt it.
RandomUser
04-03-2008, 11:08 AM
Interesting, your version of history is different than mine. Some of the statement tax my historical memory. I will have to snopes my memory here a little. My impression is that Israel has moderated it's nationalism faster than it's neighbors.
From: http://www.sixdaywar.org/content/threats.asp
Do you think this is propoganda? One thing that is odd about life is that I can read a history book and be dead sure about something and find out later it was all fluff and opinion beyound the basic facts. When I was young I never even thought of that as a possiblity, then after traveling a little bit in foreign cultures I could see where authors and opinion makers were not being honest and had axes to grind. I thought those people were so Un American. I went from trusting to not trusting major media, the federal government as they all seemed to lack essential intregrity. The difficulty then is in finding accurate information. The Google Oracle has helped but also brings along a lot more misinformation requiring further refining skills. I think we need more classically educated peoples. I am not one, but I admire the ones I have met.
I can't discount your closed involvement political notions. As I bounce back and forth to those on occasion and I think they have some validity in the overall philosophy of the United States. Blue Jeans can be much more effective than bullets in getting an idea across.
****http://www.sixdaywar.org/
In the weeks leading up to the Six Day War, Arab leaders repeatedly threatened Israel with annihilation. Together with Egypt's ejection of United Nations forces, the closing of the Straits of Tiran, and the massing of troops on Israel's northern and southern borders, the fiery rhetoric created a state of existential fear in Israel.
RandomUser
04-03-2008, 11:22 AM
Time Boundaries are interesting also. If time is not a boundary we would definitely perceive the Israeli interest in the area. If we create the boundary any time after WWII then we also can not ignore the interest Israeli's have in the area. If we use the mid 19th century as the time boundary then affairs become more political and based more on world powers and not local area customs. The Ottoman Empire like the Axis powers lost their ability to maintain their boundaries from being defeated in a war.
http://www.afdg.org/spip/article.php3?id_article=45
"after the fall of the Ottoman Empire during World War I, the British got in 1920 the Mandate for Palestine"
The solution to time boundaries I think is to look at what is right to do today.
1. Value kids
2. Value peace
3. Don't kill
4. Talk
5. Agree.
As long as the Israeli's are not under the gun and facing extinction they should be able to do the above. The problem then would be people that want to take advantage of that logic. If we wanted it to play out we would need a defensive position for a period of time until the killing has ceased on both sides. The UN has been particulary corrupt and inept in this role.
Nothing wrong at all with Israel being nationalist, same as with the Palestinians feeling quite similar themselves.
The Palestinians value all of the above except perhaps "Agree". Agree with what? Agree with occupation? Not likely. I wouldn't either. same for the people who lived through the Lebanese Occupation. You keep attempting to paint this as a war between inhumans on one side, angels on the other.
Very few are saying to ignore Israeli's interest. My only policy recommendation is for the United States to cease being involved. As I have said in earlier posts, there is no such thing as "the right border". The idea there is one is the Folly of Versailles coming round again and again.
And it has always been about world powers, not local customs. This is not a tremendous clash of customs. It's a conflict of interest.
Historiography by Quote is also pretty pointless. For every nutty Arab leader quote, you can put up one from Ben Gurion, who had sayings just as outrageous. Politicians often make fiery claims in public, then make deals at the table. They can save face in public and get the deal done in private. Hopefully this isn't news to anyone.
There is a lot of accurate information on the middle east. I think anybody who even opens their mouth on the ME should have at least read Peace to End All Peace by David Fromkin and several TE Lawrence biographies just for the foundation of the modern era.
To dispel the "clash of cultures" idea, I like Arab and Jew by David K. Shipler.
Outside of that, any lover of military history will be quite satisfied with much of the work on the various individual wars and campaigns. The politics are fairly easy to understand once the background info is understood.
Israelis are hardly under the gun, The Palestinians and Hezballah can't do much except win propaganda victories on the offensive(Hezballah can embarrass Israeli in a defensive campaign, however). The other Arab nations are well bribed and have nothing to gain from a real war with Israel. Within Palestinian, the militant factions only have popular support because of how Israel tends to escalate on any excuse, not to mention their own first-moves. Two states? One-state? Who knows. But until the US gets out of the situation, it will never heal.
In terms of killing, you do realize that the score is very uneven right?
Get the Fromkin book at the very least. To talk about the middle east with people who haven't read it(it's required knowledge in many more serious discussion groups) is very frustrating.
I also recommend the stuff by the high placed Israeli officials, such as Netanyu's book A Durable Peace. There are also some good books on the military and guerrilla action in Palestine.
Stuff like Netanyu's is good for understanding what exactly modern Zionists(or more specifically in his case, Israeli politicians) want from the Arabs. Can't really hate something you don't understand, is my view.
One major problem with a lot of the pro-Zionist opinion is the oft-repeated trivia that Israel represents only xyz small percentage of the total area of the Middle East, and how come it's so wrong they want a little peice? The counter is quite plain to see: "Just because I have a lot, doesn't mean you are entitled to any." Another problem with such a view is what I call the "American Fallacy". The idea that there is some kind of homogeneous group called "Arabs" when it really matters. If Arabs were all the same, then sure, they might be able to share that small piece with Israel, but they are not, and they have perpetual beefs with each other to contend with as well. Factor in Turkey and Iran and the other close by non-Arab nations and the picture complicates quickly.
Politics by bumper sticker works very much in Israeli's favor. The said about the Middle east, the easier it is for their position. But the deeper you dig, and the more complexity an onlooker can handle, the less tenable a lot of the Zionist format is.
But all I want is for America's(and thus my own) involvement to end. I think that's the best course of action for all involved. I like Israel as a place, I've been there, the people are quite nice, especially to Americans. The food is horrible, the women are gorgeous, and it's generally a nice place if not for the ever present shadow of the Conflict.
LuvlyDancer
04-05-2008, 04:13 PM
If Egypt cared they would give part of the Sinai to the Palestinians. Thousands of miles of land, not a person in sight. There's land 1000 X the size of Gaza and the WB.
I'm not saying the Arabs should give up and leave Palestine. But really the Arab need to do something to ease the suffering for the Palestinians. Open some kind of territory in the Sinai, ...Saudi and the Gulf states could donate $$ get it started.
Lol this is the first link in my newsfeed.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/28/1611/16064/892/486269
I can say that I disagree with this guy also.
I'm fine if we add more Egyptian/Israeli/Jordanian land to Gaza and call it Palestine. I've never understood why they have a closed border with Eygpt. What I read is the Egyptians don't like palestinians. And they should spend their aid money and open a seaport.
Zinaida
04-06-2008, 09:55 AM
If Egypt cared they would give part of the Sinai to the Palestinians. Thousands of miles of land, not a person in sight. There's land 1000 X the size of Gaza and the WB.
Where are these thousands of miles of empty land in the Sinai? The Sinai that I know of is developed and a major tourist destination, there's barely enough room for the Bedouin let alone millions of Palestinians. And why Egypt?
kitana
04-07-2008, 04:50 PM
I understand (to a degree) statements that it is the Jewish homeland and whatnot, but does this sentiment confer some sort of land-ownership rights, and conversely, does it take away the rights of Palestinians who had been living there for generations-to-centuries?
You have to understand that that was the Hebrew lands well before Palestine or Palestinians were ever around. They are just going home. I mean you would be pissed if you went on vacation for a few months and came back and your house was invaded by strangers and your fav stuff broken and desecrated.
Zinaida
04-07-2008, 05:25 PM
I mean you would be pissed if you went on vacation for a few months and came back and your house was invaded by strangers and your fav stuff broken and desecrated.
How do you make that analogy?
kitana
04-07-2008, 05:54 PM
How do you make that analogy?
Like I said earlier, Jews were around LONG before Palestinians, and we left, came back and BOOM! You see the result.
We were given that land by G-d.
hockeybobby
04-07-2008, 05:59 PM
uh oh
jester214
04-07-2008, 06:33 PM
Like I said earlier, Jews were around LONG before Palestinians, and we left, came back and BOOM! You see the result.
We were given that land by G-d.
This is the big question. If I go on vacation for 30 years and forgo my home, it probably won't quite be the same or mine when I get back... Should it be? That's the question, with a few other things thrown in of course.
princessjefflina
04-08-2008, 01:17 AM
HAHA OH NO
I KNOW I DIDNT JUST FIND THIS
itz awn
most if not all mainstream modern "jews are not the "jews of the bible
and theyre not actually a definitive "race" like they seemingly like to think theyre mostly phenotypically similar to the area where they are located
moving awn!
my idea is that the jewsof the bible which i call the origi-jews ie: the big bad THEY
that rule the world
not for zionism tho
zionism is a lower level diversion
theyd never let themselves get caught up in petty nationalism
what a weakness!
these guys are aliens/demons maybe just maybe coomparable to the dJinn of islam!
but theyrethe true sons ofabraham
but actually thats confliucorary too to my idea
cos theres the ishamael and issac side of things
cos i think actually in islam abraham never made the covenant with "G-d"
for his sons on the issac side to basically rule the earth FOEvAAAAA
in any event!
i still saY theres some truth to when people say "jews rule the world" and talk about zionism and such
theyre a little misled
but there is a certain few special "jews" (ORIGI-JEWS!)that actually use their "judaism" to keep themselves from criticism that do run things
but i like to think theyre actually aliens or demons or like from a parallel dimension
:(
cos there is no carnal pleasure that can possibly come close to justifying this extent of human slavery
:(
imagine theres no countries!
but not the way its gonna be!
:(
RandomUser
04-08-2008, 02:33 PM
I don't even understand the princess post here. I can write scattered, stream of consciouness, disjointed thought all the time and probably do, but this outdoes me.
My favorite complete protein is brown rice, with a can of nalley chili.
BrodieLux
04-08-2008, 02:39 PM
The princess post is the strangest thing I ever read, I think.
Jay Zeno
04-08-2008, 02:51 PM
That's OK. You're still new here.
hockeybobby
04-08-2008, 03:03 PM
I kind of liked the post. I didn't get any of it, but it was a pleasant distraction...on the whole.