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glambman
07-03-2008, 03:43 PM
Unless you can understand the difference between sex and gender.


In biology, sex is a process of combining and mixing genetic traits, often resulting in the specialization of organisms into male and female types (or sexes).

Gender refers to the differences between men and women.


So if a chick or dude (I don't discriminate) is getting it doggy style, could they be a dog? They're acting like it. ::)

NewMoon
07-03-2008, 03:45 PM
In biology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology), sex is a process of combining and mixing genetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics) traits, often resulting in the specialization of organisms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organism) into male (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male) and female (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female) types (or sexes).

Gender refers to the differences between men (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man) and women (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman).


So if a chick or dude (I don't discriminate) is getting it doggy style, could they be a dog? They're acting like it. ::)
Gender isn't something black and white like a sex or a species.

A scientist can examine a being and tell you the sex and species. A scientist cannot examine a cologne/perfume and define whether they are masculine or feminine.

noelle
07-03-2008, 03:49 PM
He's a she. A man is not pregnant.



No. You are wrong. Your ignorance and transphobia is very upsetting.

Jenny
07-03-2008, 03:55 PM
Gender isn't something black and white like a sex or a species.

A scientist can examine a being and tell you the sex and species. A scientist cannot examine a cologne/perfume and define whether they are masculine or feminine.
Very true. Although even sex is not always so transparent.

glambman
07-03-2008, 03:57 PM
Except... cars and humans are, you know, different. And something that may be true of cars is not necessarily true of humans. You see? You see how that works? Because the car doesn't perform it's branding and it has no ideas of its own. Whereas the human does. You see? You see how cars and humans are sometimes different? Sex and gender are subjectively performed whereas a car is only performed on. Because a car is a fucking car and not a person.

Something you might keep in mind that there are trans people present on this board. While you are entitled to your "opinion" you might consider how... you know, tolerant it is to declare them to be liars and wrong about their lives and identities


I like how if one disagrees with a position, they are labeled as intolerant, etc. (if they are taking a conservative view BTW).

I have not gone on a ohhhhh they are evil blah blah blah tirade, have I?

Also, I wonder why you are not tolerant of my position. }:D

And as to performing branding, it applies to humans too. You get that point, right?

glambman
07-03-2008, 03:59 PM
Gender isn't something black and white like a sex or a species.

A scientist can examine a being and tell you the sex and species. A scientist cannot examine a cologne/perfume and define whether they are masculine or feminine.


Very true. Although even sex is not always so transparent.


A human is not perfume.

glambman
07-03-2008, 04:01 PM
No. You are wrong. Your ignorance and transphobia is very upsetting.


That's the first I heard of transphobia. Another word to force acceptance.

NewMoon
07-03-2008, 04:01 PM
Very true. Although even sex is not always so transparent.
Well there are cases of intersex species and while it may be difficult to define whether the being is male or female, the aspects are clearly defined as male or female. I could be wrong though! I've done a lot of reading on sex and gender but I am certainly no scientist!

NewMoon
07-03-2008, 04:02 PM
A human is not perfume.
No gender can be applied to things such as perfume. I'm just showing that the term is not black and white the way you seem to thing it is.

glambman
07-03-2008, 04:08 PM
No gender can be applied to things such as perfume. I'm just showing that the term is not black and white the way you seem to thing it is.


That was meant for Jenny, who was telling me humans are not cars.

Yes you are right, I agree with you (to an extent). But, it is possible for females to have (what are defined as) masculine traits, and guys feminine traits, but they are still females or guys. It doesn't change their overallness.

Jenny
07-03-2008, 04:12 PM
I like how if one disagrees with a position, they are labeled as intolerant, etc. (if they are taking a conservative view BTW).

I have not gone on a ohhhhh they are evil blah blah blah tirade, have I?

Also, I wonder why you are not tolerant of my position. }:D
Because you are effectively denying the autonomy, self-expression individuality and decisions of an entire class of people based on the fact that you think something or other about ferarris. And yes. It is to "force acceptance". It is appropriately labeling knee-jerk passive resentment of what one doesn't understand and fear for no reason I can determine except concern that you might, one day, accidentally make out with someone who once had a penis. Hopefully when most people hear it couched in accurate but evocative terms they will have the self-knowledge and awareness to re-examine their prejudice.

Viva la transpeople and all of that.


And as to performing branding, it applies to humans too. You get that point, right?Except that we're talking about sociology and biology not marketing. And, as I said - the car doesn't think, act or feel. A human does.

NM; I meant (in part) the... how would you say? scientific confusion that sometimes ensues based on visual cues.

NewMoon
07-03-2008, 04:12 PM
glambman - But can a woman have such overwhelming masculine traits that they be considered female in terms of sex and woman in terms of gender?

velvet
07-03-2008, 04:16 PM
He's a she. A man is not pregnant.

Imagine it like this, you see a ferrari, it has an engine, trans, body panels, badges, and all the things it takes to look like a ferrari. But, it uses a fiero base. Yes, it may look like a real one, but it is a kit car, not the real thing.

So, in regards to this story, a woman gave birth.

And as to 'entitlement' furhter in the thread, you do know there have been other girl/guy who have given birth, don't you? But they weren't publicity whores.

nope you are wrong. a man with female genitalia gave birth.
i think it's great. the wife couldnt have children. so he did.
i mean so you feel you are a man, become a man. you want children and have to a way to achieve this . so what you dont because now you are a man? ridiculus that anyone would think this person doesn't have the "right" to do this.
the attention whore comments are very funny coming from strippers and particularly some on this board

glambman
07-03-2008, 04:19 PM
glambman - But can a woman have such overwhelming masculine traits that they be considered female in terms of sex and woman in terms of gender?


Yes. Yes. A guy or girl can have what are considered 'the opposite' traits and still not be the opposite.

NewMoon
07-03-2008, 04:20 PM
Yes. Yes. A guy or girl can have what are considered 'the opposite' traits and still not be the opposite.
Their SEX is not the opposite but their gender would be.

glambman
07-03-2008, 04:32 PM
Because you are effectively denying the autonomy, self-expression individuality and decisions of an entire class of people based on the fact that you think something or other about ferarris. And yes. It is to "force acceptance". It is appropriately labeling knee-jerk passive resentment of what one doesn't understand and fear for no reason I can determine except concern that you might, one day, accidentally make out with someone who once had a penis. Hopefully when most people hear it couched in accurate but evocative terms they will have the self-knowledge and awareness to re-examine their prejudice.

Individuality. Entire class of people. An oxymoron, wouldn't you agree.

Hate to break it too you, but the latter won't happen.



Except that we're talking about sociology and biology not marketing. And, as I said - the car doesn't think, act or feel. A human does.


Nope, changing yourelf is rebranding yourself. And I guess that would apply to both sex and gender, but it doesn't mean the rebranded can perform as the original. Can you show me where a guy former girl got a girl pregnant. 'His' sperm and her egg? Nope. So it's not performing as an orignal.

glambman
07-03-2008, 04:34 PM
nope you are wrong. a man with female genitalia gave birth.
i think it's great. the wife couldnt have children. so he did.
i mean so you feel you are a man, become a man. you want children and have to a way to achieve this . so what you dont because now you are a man? ridiculus that anyone would think this person doesn't have the "right" to do this.
the attention whore comments are very funny coming from strippers and particularly some on this board



A woman who changed herself to look like a guy gave birth.

CKXXX
07-03-2008, 04:38 PM
You know it isnt like putting on a costume right??? DO you have any idea how complicated and difficult it is to go through gender reassignment?? And how unbelievably ignorant and rude for you to suggest otherwise.

Budai
07-03-2008, 04:38 PM
glambman:

I'm asking purely out of curiosity, no malice intended. Are you Golden Rule's sock puppet?

Jenny
07-03-2008, 04:41 PM
Individuality. Entire class of people. An oxymoron, wouldn't you agree.

Hate to break it too you, but the latter won't happen.
People can be both individuals and members of a class. I am an individual and should be treated like one. I am also a woman, a Canadian, a citizen of the U.K., a red head, a pet owner etc. I don't know what you mean by "the latter" but if you mean you have no intention of examining your prejudice... well, one step at a time and I suppose I can just hope that other people whose knees jerk as much as yours will.

Nope, changing yourelf is rebranding yourself.
No, that's an analogy, not a fact. What I said above was trying to explain why the analogy was inaccurate - the significant departures in the situation of a car and the situation of a person. Simply trying to reassert the analogy is not particularly effective. And fortunately people act out both sex and gender in many, many ways and don't act them out in many, many ways such that inseminating a woman is not, in fact, the only proverbial measure of a man.

glambman
07-03-2008, 04:46 PM
You know it isnt like putting on a costume right??? DO you have any idea how complicated and difficult it is to go through gender reassignment?? And how unbelievably ignorant and rude for you to suggest otherwise.


glambman:

I'm asking purely out of curiosity, no malice intended. Are you Golden Rule's sock puppet?


Golden Rule? **scratches head**

Geez, I voiced a different opinion and get slammed and am 'at fault'.

Opinions are like assholes. You know that, right?

Yes, I do not agree with it, blah blah blah. But you are making it sound like I think we want to organize 'resistance'. When have I even said 'they are evil, blah blah blah'?

Some people think differently than I, cie la vie.

You're making mountains out of molehills. ;)

Sophia_Starina
07-03-2008, 04:48 PM
Hmmmm.... I say if you have two 'X' chromosomes you are a woman. Even if you're a manly woman, even if you're a breastless woman, even if you're a bearded woman.... still a woman.

glambman
07-03-2008, 04:51 PM
People can be both individuals and members of a class. I am an individual and should be treated like one. I am also a woman, a Canadian, a citizen of the U.K., a red head, a pet owner etc.

No ones perfect, Jenny. I mean not only am I a pet owner, but I have a little thing hanging between my legs. ;D



I don't know what you mean by "the latter" but if you mean you have no intention of examining your prejudice... well, one step at a time and I suppose I can just hope that other people whose knees jerk as much as yours will.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/latter

Difference of opinion does not mean prejudice. Dammit, I feel like I am on democratsonline.com.

UV69
07-03-2008, 04:52 PM
Males of the human species can't get pregant.

Transmen=females with or without injected male hormones/female mutation surgery that suffers from penis envy and internalized misogyny that still can get pregant if they have a properly fuctioning reproductive system.

No I'm not transphobic (no hate or fear here), but i just don't believe in Santa or the EasterBunny and I happen to understand the difference between male and female which is not based on gender thoery or the imagination/denail of those who claim to be in the wronge body, but biological fact.

Yekhefah
07-03-2008, 04:56 PM
Hmmmm.... I say if you have two 'X' chromosomes you are a woman. Even if you're a manly woman, even if you're a breastless woman, even if you're a bearded woman.... still a woman.

My brother has two X chromosomes. He also has a penis and testicles, a male build, "guy" interests (he's into carpentry, pool care, and yard work), and dates girls. He is 6'7", shaves his face, and weighs just over 200, most of which is muscle. Believe me when I tell you he is NOT a woman.

His sex chromosomes are XXY. This is a condition called Klinefelter's Syndrome and he was born this way. Guys with Klinefelter's are considered transgendered and my brother does take artificial testosterone, but believe me, he's a dude.

Also, one of my close friends is very much a woman. Big breasts, female genitalia, soft features, and a keen obsession with romantic comedies and Celine Dion. She does NOT have two X chromosomes. She has Turner's Syndrome and her chromosomes read XO (she has an X chromosome and a blank spot). Regardless of chromosomes, she is a chick.

Sophia_Starina
07-03-2008, 05:06 PM
My brother has two X chromosomes. He also has a penis and testicles, a male build, "guy" interests (he's into carpentry, pool care, and yard work), and dates girls. He is 6'7", shaves his face, and weighs just over 200, most of which is muscle. Believe me when I tell you he is NOT a woman.

His sex chromosomes are XXY. This is a condition called Klinefelter's Syndrome and he was born this way. Guys with Klinefelter's are considered transgendered and my brother does take artificial testosterone, but believe me, he's a dude.

Also, one of my close friends is very much a woman. Big breasts, female genitalia, soft features, and a keen obsession with romantic comedies and Celine Dion. She does NOT have two X chromosomes. She has Turner's Syndrome and her chromosomes read XO (she has an X chromosome and a blank spot). Regardless of chromosomes, she is a chick.

I figured someone would bring that up. However... note that I said "two X" chromosomes...not just one... not 2-out-of-3... this isn't bingo or some other board game. So even though I'd love to give you a gold star and a scratch-n-sniff sticker for passing Bio class at some point I'll have to hold out till you really WOW me.

I stick by my statement.


http://brightbytes.com/collection/images/ladyAJ.jpg

Yekhefah
07-03-2008, 05:08 PM
You said anyone with two X chromosomes is a woman. My brother has two X chromosomes and is NOT a woman. You can get rude and bitchy all you want but you're still wrong.

And I have no idea where "bio class" came in when I was talking about my own fucking BROTHER (and one of my best friends).

Sophia_Starina
07-03-2008, 05:10 PM
Sorry I ever implied you passed Bio. Nevermind :shrug:

Sophia_Starina
07-03-2008, 05:15 PM
Anywho, back to the topic at hand. Different people assign gender differently. I was just saying that I'm not shocked by the story.

Some folks are grossed out... but I think they forget, this "guy" has all the girlie equipment needed to do the girliest thing in the world.... pop out a baby.

Of course, that's only my 2 cents... so don't take it personal ::)

Jenny
07-03-2008, 05:18 PM
Difference of opinion does not mean prejudice. Dammit, I feel like I am on democratsonline.com.People say the same thing about hating the blacks and the gays.

Jenny
07-03-2008, 05:20 PM
No I'm not transphobic (no hate or fear here), but i just don't believe in Santa or the EasterBunny and I happen to understand the difference between male and female which is not based on gender thoery or the imagination/denail of those who claim to be in the wronge body, but biological fact.
Can I remind you as well that there are transpeople on this board? And that telling them that their identity is Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny is very hateful, dismissive, impolite and, frankly, small minded.

glambman
07-03-2008, 05:29 PM
People say the same thing about hating the blacks and the gays.


And whites and straights, and (insert label/ group).

Sophia_Starina
07-03-2008, 05:37 PM
Maybe the media is to blame for going with the shock-value headlines like Man-Has-BABY!!!!! The only thing scary about that is the mental image of trying to give birth to a 7 or 8 pound baby through a penis. LOL.

In reality it's a completely natural situation.... except there was a sperm donor.... and that's old news. People have been doing that for decades (maybe even centuries).

:no: I just don't see why this is such a touchy topic. People don't need a license to make a baby..... all the superficial stuff shouldn't matter. If it's a loving home it's the best home a child can hope for.

Andygirl
07-03-2008, 06:39 PM
Maybe the media is to blame for going with the shock-value headlines like Man-Has-BABY!!!!! The only thing scary about that is the mental image of trying to give birth to a 7 or 8 pound baby through a penis. LOL.

In reality it's a completely natural situation.... except there was a sperm donor.... and that's old news. People have been doing that for decades (maybe even centuries).


Agreed. It is hard for me to understand why people have any argument about this. This person was born female, with XY chromosomes and all of the female reproductive organs. Yes, the person had a sex change and became a man for all intents and purposes, but when he decided to use his original biological sex to reproduce it was not a "man having a baby."

I don't think my viewpoint is intolerant at all. It has nothing to do with my feelings about transgendered people, and everything to do with scientific facts.

AlexxaHex
07-03-2008, 07:02 PM
No ones perfect, Jenny. I mean not only am I a pet owner, but I have a little thing hanging between my legs. ;D



Difference of opinion does not mean prejudice. Dammit, I feel like I am on democratsonline.com.


And that's probably why you're on stripperweb.com looking for validation. Oh, I forgot. Now this is PLweb.com! Silly me.


People say the same thing about hating the blacks and the gays.

Exactly. I think it's all well and good to have opinions, but when you are outright as hateful and intolerant as I have seen in this thread, you have to wonder why people are so threatened by trans people. Even if you put a scientific label on gender, which is the wrong category for it to be in (since gender and sex are two different things), why wouldn't you try to at least be polite to the trans community by not spouting off redneck sounding shit? Have some fucking decency!! I'm not a trans person but I am truly offended by the ignorance here.

eta: oh and if one more person implies that I or any parent is SELFISH or ENTITLED because we chose to bring a child into this world and love and raise it to the best of our ability is getting put at the top of my Shit List. Cerously.

millions_of_peaches
07-03-2008, 07:10 PM
Why get so ugly? It is so simple, and so human! He used to be a she, now is transgendered. His wife can't have a baby, "he" can. So why are we judging any of it, except for the whole media thing? In their position, wouldn't any of us do the same? Looks to me like a beautiful sacrifice for each other, like 'The Gift', except this time it works.

Budai
07-03-2008, 08:30 PM
glambman:
I'm asking purely out of curiosity, no malice intended. Are you Golden Rule's sock puppet?


Golden Rule? **scratches head**

Geez, I voiced a different opinion and get slammed and am 'at fault'.

Opinions are like assholes. You know that, right?

Yes, I do not agree with it, blah blah blah. But you are making it sound like I think we want to organize 'resistance'. When have I even said 'they are evil, blah blah blah'?

Some people think differently than I, cie la vie.

You're making mountains out of molehills. ;)

Yep, same tone. It's you, GR, just admit it...

glambman
07-03-2008, 08:44 PM
Yep, same tone. It's you, GR, just admit it...

I am only me.

I searched the members list and saw whom you are referring to. It shows last activity of today. IP's will be different. If he is from the Garden State, he is about a thousand miles north from me.

So nope, I am not he, and he is not me.

UV69
07-03-2008, 11:35 PM
Can I remind you as well that there are transpeople on this board? And that telling them that their identity is Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny is very hateful, dismissive, impolite and, frankly, small minded.


I think maybe you are trying to dissmiss my view that fact outweights fiction interms of defining sex. Obiviously you could not debate my agruement with any facts to prove how a man can truely be woman becuz that is just gender thoery. I strongely stand against the notion that masculinity or femininity belongs to an assigned sex, defines sex, or in any concept that those who don't fit the binary are in the wronge bodies therefor the sexist notion that some1 has to correct thier sex to match thier gender truely offends me.

Now as for this subject ofcourse a transman can get pregant becuz she is still a woman with a female reprodutive system. If the sex change actaully was able to change her sex into a male then she would be a he and only able to father a child. That is the facts of the birds and the bees.

We can call her a him all any1 likes, but fact is males don't produce eggs and can't carry childern. It's not my reality or opinion it's biological fact. Now a man being trapped in a woman's body that's a thoery and an opinon based on a man's concept of what being a woman is which is not his reality.

Lily366
07-03-2008, 11:59 PM
Haha i remember seeing him on Oprah a few months ago...crazy..

Budai
07-04-2008, 01:14 AM
I am only me...
So nope, I am not he, and he is not me.

My apologies, glambman!

I was mistaken, you aren't Golden Rule. However, you do appear to be channeling Dr. Seuss... ;)

Jenny
07-04-2008, 05:46 AM
I think maybe you are trying to dissmiss my view that fact outweights fiction interms of defining sex.
No. I admit that tend to get irritable when people like you cannot have the conversation in a way that is even remotely respectful to trans people, so I try to humanize the group so that you realize you are effectively deriding people to their face. You say you are not transphobic because you don't "hate" them - but you treating them with a lot of derision, which to me indicates prejudice and is very distasteful. Something you might want to actually consider.


Obiviously you could not debate my agruement with any facts to prove how a man can truely be woman becuz that is just gender thoery.
Your facts are stunted. Like yes, you can just point and chant "no penis, no penis"; and if he had a penis it would be "no y chromosome, no y chromosome" but refusing to acknowledge complexity in human gendering is not the same as debating and it is not the same as irrefutable facts. When intersexed people are born and raised I'm sure you would find something to chant about what they "really" are. The fact is that sex is, to some degree, performed and genitals are not as important an indicator as what you might be comfortable with. My best friend transitioned in her early twenties; she is now in her 30s and has no intention of getting the surgery. The majority of her medical treatment is the same as it would be for women - risks for diabetes, heart attacks, contra indications on medications, etc. The remainder of her medical treatment and intervention would be for transwomen. There is no medical treatment "for men" that she experiences. She does not perform as a man in her life - again, she performs as a woman or a transwoman. Why, exactly, are you privileging the possession of a penis (or, in many cases, the former possession of a penis) over every other gender or sex indicator? What makes that fact so much better than, for example, her birth certificate? Her medical treatment? Her breasts (which are not, by the way, implants)?


I strongely stand against the notion that masculinity or femininity belongs to an assigned sex, or in any concept that those who don't fit the binary are in the wronge bodies therefor the sexist notion that some1 has to correct thier sex to match thier gender truely offends me.
Well it offends a lot of people. And, frankly, it sounds ridiculous to say "I'm not transphobic because I don't hate transpeople, but transpeople truly offend me". That's... transphobic. That's what it is. It's not that far from the comments on the story that said "she's a woman, that's how god made her... why couldn't she just wear pants?"

I do however, think this is a more interesting question than "Penis! Penis!". Like considering what the performance of a woman (in this case a man, but more often a woman) is and who is excluded from it and why. Judith Butler wrote about it in the 90s. But again, I think that is a conversation you can have while having a modicum of respect for transpeople. I do it all the time. Every conversation I had with my pal for like 5 years began with "What does "feeling like a woman" feel like?" If I ran around saying "Gawd, can't you just wear lipstick and lisp a little? What the fuck? Gawd, you have a penis; you can't just imagine it away. You're just imagining all of this. Penis holder!" It wouldn't have gone so well.


Now as for this subject ofcourse a transman can get pregant becuz she is still a woman with a female reprodutive system. If the sex change actaully was able to change her sex into a male then she would be a he and only able to father a child. That is the facts of the birds and the bees.
Like I said - that is a stunted version of the facts. Although I don't think the paper gave any indication of any facts that were not true. It reported a story of a transman giving birth; at no point did I feel led to believe it was a genetic man. I mean, the headline is just a headline - there are only so many facts you are meant to glean from it.


We can call her a him all any1 likes, but fact is males don't produce eggs and can't carry childern. It's not my reality or opinion it's biological fact.
Some intersex men do. Or are they honourary women? What if they produce both eggs and semen? What would determine gender then? There are some women here who don't produce eggs and carry children; and god willing we will all eventually reach menopause when none of us will. What are we then? What if a woman has a hysterectomy? She's not producing semen, but she's not producing eggs either? Still a woman? What about men with testicular cancer who have their testicles removed and grow breasts? Still men? This is the problem with pointing and chanting "Penis Penis" or "Vagina Vagina" or "Reproductive Organs Reproductive Organs" is that you know perfectly well on an intuitive level that reproduction and even the opportunity to reproduce doesn't limit sex and gender; it merely sets up the categories into which we expect everyone to fit; when people do not fit you will use other indicators - like "well that person used to be able to do this" or "in the "normal" course of things, this person would have done this" or in certain extreme cases just say "Freak of nature; defies categorization; don't need to deal." The problem being you won't even admit that is what you are doing because you want to clothe the categorization in scientific infallibility that just does not exist.

Lysondra
07-04-2008, 06:08 AM
The stupidity in this thread makes me cry.

TigersMilk
07-04-2008, 09:37 AM
I've cleaned this thread. Let's keep it civil in here.

UV69
07-04-2008, 10:06 AM
No. I admit that tend to get irritable when people like you cannot have the conversation in a way that is even remotely respectful to trans people, so I try to humanize the group so that you realize you are effectively deriding people to their face. You say you are not transphobic because you don't "hate" them - but you treating them with a lot of derision, which to me indicates prejudice and is very distasteful. Something you might want to actually consider.


Your facts are stunted. Like yes, you can just point and chant "no penis, no penis"; and if he had a penis it would be "no y chromosome, no y chromosome" but refusing to acknowledge complexity in human gendering is not the same as debating and it is not the same as irrefutable facts. When intersexed people are born and raised I'm sure you would find something to chant about what they "really" are. The fact is that sex is, to some degree, performed and genitals are not as important an indicator as what you might be comfortable with. My best friend transitioned in her early twenties; she is now in her 30s and has no intention of getting the surgery. The majority of her medical treatment is the same as it would be for women - risks for diabetes, heart attacks, contra indications on medications, etc. The remainder of her medical treatment and intervention would be for transwomen. There is no medical treatment "for men" that she experiences. She does not perform as a man in her life - again, she performs as a woman or a transwoman. Why, exactly, are you privileging the possession of a penis (or, in many cases, the former possession of a penis) over every other gender or sex indicator? What makes that fact so much better than, for example, her birth certificate? Her medical treatment? Her breasts (which are not, by the way, implants)?


Well it offends a lot of people. And, frankly, it sounds ridiculous to say "I'm not transphobic because I don't hate transpeople, but transpeople truly offend me". That's... transphobic. That's what it is. It's not that far from the comments on the story that said "she's a woman, that's how god made her... why couldn't she just wear pants?"

I do however, think this is a more interesting question than "Penis! Penis!". Like considering what the performance of a woman (in this case a man, but more often a woman) is and who is excluded from it and why. Judith Butler wrote about it in the 90s. But again, I think that is a conversation you can have while having a modicum of respect for transpeople. I do it all the time. Every conversation I had with my pal for like 5 years began with "What does "feeling like a woman" feel like?" If I ran around saying "Gawd, can't you just wear lipstick and lisp a little? What the fuck? Gawd, you have a penis; you can't just imagine it away. You're just imagining all of this. Penis holder!" It wouldn't have gone so well.


Like I said - that is a stunted version of the facts. Although I don't think the paper gave any indication of any facts that were not true. It reported a story of a transman giving birth; at no point did I feel led to believe it was a genetic man. I mean, the headline is just a headline - there are only so many facts you are meant to glean from it.


Some intersex men do. Or are they honourary women? What if they produce both eggs and semen? What would determine gender then? There are some women here who don't produce eggs and carry children; and god willing we will all eventually reach menopause when none of us will. What are we then? What if a woman has a hysterectomy? She's not producing semen, but she's not producing eggs either? Still a woman? What about men with testicular cancer who have their testicles removed and grow breasts? Still men? This is the problem with pointing and chanting "Penis Penis" or "Vagina Vagina" or "Reproductive Organs Reproductive Organs" is that you know perfectly well on an intuitive level that reproduction and even the opportunity to reproduce doesn't limit sex and gender; it merely sets up the categories into which we expect everyone to fit; when people do not fit you will use other indicators - like "well that person used to be able to do this" or "in the "normal" course of things, this person would have done this" or in certain extreme cases just say "Freak of nature; defies categorization; don't need to deal." The problem being you won't even admit that is what you are doing because you want to clothe the categorization in scientific infallibility that just does not exist.


Intersexed and being born 1 sex believing you are a member of the opposite sex are 2 different things.

Argue all you want (be upset with me if you like), but nomatter what you think of my facts are reality is I don't have to transition to be what I am and if some1 is actaully something they don't need to pass for something they are not and never will be.

Passing and transitioning are terms that speak for themselves. They are terms that tell you str8up that something is not what it seems.

As for who is a member of stripper web I highly doute any FTMs are strippers however just becuz I'm part of any community doesn't mean I have to believe anything I'm told just becuz it hurts the feelings of others if I don't see things the way they do.

NewMoon
07-04-2008, 10:10 AM
Intersexed and being born 1 sex believing you are a member of the opposite sex are 2 different things.
Intersex people prove that gender is not black and white and that ambiguity does exist.



As for who is a member of stripper web I highly doute any FTMs are strippers however just becuz I'm part of any community doesn't mean I have to believe anything I'm told just becuz it hurts the feelings of others if I don't see things the way they do. Actually we just had a MTF posting recently who was post-op and wondering about stripping.

AlexxaHex
07-04-2008, 10:17 AM
I think we have at least two transgendered people on this board.

I know someone who is intersexed. She prefers to live and be referred to as a woman. She has had reconstructive surgery and takes hormones. So out of respect to her, I wouldn't just call her an "it" or something derogatory. I think people who do things like that are just being defiant for some reason or another. Or they don't realize how unbelievably rude it is.

Jenny
07-04-2008, 12:53 PM
Intersexed and being born 1 sex believing you are a member of the opposite sex are 2 different things.
I know that. I'm pointing out situations - that you cannot readily dismiss - in which your two sex/born one way/biology is destiny/you are who you are position just doesn't work and pointing out that being "born a man" or "born a woman" isn't as determinative as you've said.


Argue all you want (be upset with me if you like), but nomatter what you think of my facts are reality is I don't have to transition to be what I am and if some1 is actaully something they don't need to pass for something they are not and never will be.
So now what you are saying is not that I'm not capable of arguing the points with you because I asked you to treat trans people with respect, but that you are not interested in "debating" the issue because no matter how much I argue (like I'm doing it myself), you already "know" you're right? Right now you either don't know how bigoted and prejudiced you sound or you've decided that being bigoted and prejudiced against transgendered people doesn't count.


As for who is a member of stripper web I highly doute any FTMs are strippers however just becuz I'm part of any community doesn't mean I have to believe anything I'm told just becuz it hurts the feelings of others if I don't see things the way they do.
Some MTF's are. And yes, we do have members here. And while you don't have to believe anything, you certainly should keep in mind that this is a community and that they deserve the respect you would want for yourself. Like I said - it is perfectly possible to have a conversation about gender performance and gender roles without being intolerant and rude and bigoted.

glambman
07-04-2008, 02:23 PM
My apologies, glambman!

I was mistaken, you aren't Golden Rule. However, you do appear to be channeling Dr. Seuss... ;)


No need to apologize (I don't take things too personally on the interwebs).

You will find that I am the antithesis of Dr. Seuss, I believe in letting the Cat out of the Hat. }:D

BrodieLux
07-04-2008, 02:35 PM
I think the discussion on this thread is very itnersting. I can understand UV's point, being a female who sometimes thinks of myself as a gay man, even though I was born a woman, because I do think I have some internalized misogyny or something. I'm angry at my mother and I haven't had many positive relationships with women, and I should just get the fuck over it already and be ok with being female. So I kind of understand how UV's comments can apply to someone like me. (Working in a strip club makes me feel pretty femme, tho...and I can't relate at ALL to the male customers).

But I am inclined to think of trannies as a totally other situation, something very different from being uncomfortable with your identity. I went to high school with this chick Wendy, who had a twin sister Jodee. Jodee was really pretty, slim and feminine. Wendy was built like a guy, with broad shoulders, thick, muscular legs and a prominent jaw. Jodee was into fashion and wearing designer shit, Wendy wore baseball caps and t shirts. People often mistook Wendy for a guy, if they hadn't met her before. And her friends were always embarassed for her about that, but it seemed like she didn't mind, and that was puzzling at the time. Fast-forward a few years now, and Wendy had a sex change operation and is now named Will. Double-mastectomy and hormones and all that. Honestly, it seems like Wendy was never a woman, always a man stuck in the wrong body.

So what I'm saying is, I do think sometimes men are born into women's bodies and vice versa.