Log in

View Full Version : Dog people help me please



Pages : 1 [2]

cameron_keys
04-03-2008, 09:32 AM
Doesn't necessarily make it an evil, ignorant or completely wrong way to train either.
.


Its an outdated technique that has been proven to be counterproductive. It can also lead to now dealing with a dog who is afraid or confused...

ANY vet or trainer worth their salt will tell you the same. As has been mentioned above..there are a lot of things people used to do with pets that have since been proven wrong.

Rubbing a dogs nose in a mess is the wrong and outdated way of housetraining. Theres no ifs ands or buts about it.

Read on...you are welcome to look up trainer sites on your own:

"One traditional method of punishment - rubbing the dog's nose in its own mess - is particularly counter-productive. As noted above, dogs and wolves have a natural urge to defecate where the rest of their pack does. They locate the spot by scent; this is why dogs will generally spend some time sniffing the ground before they relieve themselves. Thus, rubbing the dog's nose in its urine or feces actually reinforces to the dog that it should continue eliminating in that particular spot."

"The old adage of rubbing a dogs nose in it is stupid. We don't do this to our kids and we should not do this to our dogs. Anyone who recommends this needs a lot more experience in dog training."

"Once the mess has been made, your dog forgets about it entirely, just as you typically don't contemplate using the restroom in the course of the day! It is an entirely ignorant notion that makes people think it's an acceptable training practice to "rub the dog's nose in it." All this teaches is the dog is to be terrified of you. You wouldn't rub your baby's nose in his own soiled diaper, so never, ever do it to your dog or puppy. Furthermore, pointing at the mess and screaming at the dog does about as much good as screaming at your toddler for accidentally breaking a toy or vase. In other words, it does absolutely no good at all."

"Contrary to popular belief, rubbing a dog's nose in the site of an accident does not work; this is because a dog does not retain knowledge of guilt about a behavior for very long after it is done so the dog will only know that you are angry but will not necessarily understand why."

I could go on...

DJ Machismo
04-03-2008, 09:59 AM
My experience tells me all I need to, so go on all you like, I really am not listening.

Lilah29
04-03-2008, 10:03 AM
DJ, it can be hard, and I have a lot of pride too - but sometimes it's just best to admit, "You know, this is what I learned, and it seemed to work out for me, but maybe there are better ways to do this..." We can all learn from new information, and there's no shame in that.

cameron_keys
04-03-2008, 10:09 AM
My experience tells me all I need to, so go on all you like, I really am not listening.
Fine..ignore all the information that has been learned by professionals. You are obviously one of those "we've always done it this way,therefore it must be right"people that used to drive me into rage when I was a tech.

Just because you've always done something doesnt make it right. And there are countless professionals who have proven that fact.
But go ahead..stick your fingers in your ears and say "lalala I dont hear you" rather then learn something. Thats productive.

DJ Machismo
04-03-2008, 12:32 PM
Fine..ignore all the information that has been learned by professionals. You are obviously one of those "we've always done it this way,therefore it must be right"people that used to drive me into rage when I was a tech.

Just because you've always done something doesnt make it right. And there are countless professionals who have proven that fact.
But go ahead..stick your fingers in your ears and say "lalala I dont hear you" rather then learn something. Thats productive.

Its not just that we've always done it that way.

Its that it has always worked. That's my experience. Its an addition to the regular routine that I grew up with and the entire routine works.

So I see no reason to change what isn't broken for us.

Does that make more sense in the explanation now?

I didn't ask for anyones help as I'm not the one with the problem, and she already has all the information she needs to make her informed decision.

I'm just saying you aren't going to sway my opinion when my experience shows me that what we do works (and we don't do the "rub nose" method as often as you seem to think, as I've pointed out a few times.)

I hear you and I am learning something. You say the majority of professionals don't use that particular method.

We use that but it is a very small portion of the regime we use. Just because professionals decide to use more modern techniques doesn't necessarily make it 100% wrong. You don't have to agree with my ideals or methods, but that doesn't mean that since I'm different from the social norm that we are wrong or right.

It works for us and hasn't had any ill effects in any dogs we've raised and we always get comments about how everyone we meet envies how our dogs behave.

Don't get all worked up just because I don't subscribe to your advice. There are a lot of things I don't agree with in advice you give out, this is just one where if I'd learned it and it didn't work, I might look into it, but it has worked and the dogs are perfectly happy and doing very well. I'm just saying I don't care how many people you can quote as I know what we do and it isn't harmful to the dogs in any way. We never actually get nose to poo/pee connection going and the dogs seem to get the point just fine. I've mentioned this several times.


DJ, it can be hard, and I have a lot of pride too - but sometimes it's just best to admit, "You know, this is what I learned, and it seemed to work out for me, but maybe there are better ways to do this..." We can all learn from new information, and there's no shame in that.

I agree, except I believe the phrase "If it isn't broke don't fix it." applies to our current regime. Nothing "seemed to work out", it has worked every time for us. So I don't really need to admit anything, times have changed, but what once worked, still works for us. I don't like people trying to make me feel like an idiot or uncaring because I use a method they don't personally like and don't fully know how we use it as no one seems to read past the "we use the rub nose method".

My dogs love me and don't fear me and thats all the extra knowledge at this point that I need.

Maybe in the future we'll look into it, but I don't foresee any problems arising as we are responsible parents for our furry children. Now if you want to argue that, I suggest you actually stop by and watch what we do instead of basing an argument off of a few lines of text that can be easily overanalyzed.

VegasPrincess
04-03-2008, 02:10 PM
Okay, the main thing I learned with my dog is not giving them the chance to have an accident. When I was house breaking her, every one or two hours you are home, take them outside to pee.

You really can't yell at them afer it has happened because they don't know why you are yelling at them at that point.... but when you catch them in the act, it's different....
i
If he pees in front of you get down on your hands and knees, look him in the eyes and say "NOOOO" but say it in a deep growling nose. You can also grab the tip of his nose, get up in his face and say it as you do it. Then take him outside.

Also, never let him see you clean up the mess, my dog trainer reccommended that. Also, take treats when you go out and as he poops or pees say "good boy!! good boy!!" and when he is done give him a treat.

If you catch him while he is peeing and can tap him in the nose or squirt him with water as he pees do that too.

PS- most dogs aren't housebroken at 5 months. You aren't doing that bad.

iambonbon05
04-03-2008, 03:00 PM
DJ your post reminds me of people that still think the way to train horses is to just get on them and run the shit out of them until they stop bucking, use devices to keep their heads down, use big bits to "make" them stop, etc. Sure it works but that doesn't mean there isn't a better way. Animals forgive, but they don't forget. They may seem well adjusted but they'd still be better off if you trained in a kinder, more slow and steady manner.

It's like the debate over whether it's ok to spank your kids. Yes it gets the message across and it doesn't necessarily make the kid fear or hate their parents but there's plenty of well behaved people out there who've never been spanked in their lives and are probably a little better adjusted for it.

VegasPrincess brought up a good point that I forgot about. If you clean it up in front of him it's like giving him attention.

Your puppy sounds like a sweetheart and I'm glad you're having such a good time with him other than this one issue :)

ajbaer
04-03-2008, 03:07 PM
I also think that if your dog isn't enrolled in obedience classes it should be. Then also, you should speak with them there. Let me know where you are located and I probably know trainers in your area that are reputable.

Lilah29
04-03-2008, 03:09 PM
Its not just that we've always done it that way.

Its that it has always worked. That's my experience. Its an addition to the regular routine that I grew up with and the entire routine works.

I think that the method used worked DESPITE rubbing their noses in/near the poo, not BECAUSE of it. I think they got the message because of the other things that were done properly which you acknowledge. But I've come to understand that rubbing the nose in poo is just confusing for the animal.

A more sensitive or troubled animal than you have had might have had a lot more issues with that technique.

DJ Machismo
04-03-2008, 03:24 PM
I think that the method used worked DESPITE rubbing their noses in/near the poo, not BECAUSE of it. I think they got the message because of the other things that were done properly which you acknowledge. But I've come to understand that rubbing the nose in poo is just confusing for the animal.

A more sensitive or troubled animal than you have had might have had a lot more issues with that technique.

I think the combination worked together.

Anyways, I'm done defending my choices, since none of us are going to do a damn thing to sway the others opinion, which is ok.

Kaylinn
04-03-2008, 03:56 PM
I also think that if your dog isn't enrolled in obedience classes it should be. Then also, you should speak with them there. Let me know where you are located and I probably know trainers in your area that are reputable.

But he doesn't need obedience training. I have that covered. He knows all the obedence commands I can think of to teach him, and he does them all perfectly. He could go into advanced obedience I guess..but he's still a pup,. and I dont know if they would let me in anything but puppy school, which he is way way advanced for. Plus...I'm poor. I can't pay for it.



Well..he hasn't had an accident since I posted the origional message. :)