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AtomicPunk
05-09-2008, 10:58 PM
Maybe it's just the world I live in but I don't think that double standard exists anymore.

TheTempest
05-09-2008, 11:01 PM
Yes - very happy with the choice. Interesting thing - a friend asked me tonight, "do you think it would have been different for the two of you if you had met outside the club and then found out?" I said yes - it would have been - and please excuse this awful metaphor - like the frog that was thrown into boiling water instead of the one who was boiled. My point being - it has been much easier since it was known from the beginning instead of something that was revealed after feelings had developed.



Not a terrible assumption. We met about a year ago (rather, I met her club persona) and began exchanging emails. We've been dating for about six months and have been an exclusive couple for about three.



The situations are not anything drastic and may seem small potatoes, if that, to many in these forums. But hands on breasts and kissing (and even as I write that those seem small to me) are jarring to me... and part of that, I'm sure, is because I'm very new to this.



She is truly amazing. But it's really not fear of her leaving or anything of that nature. I think there was a bit of that at first - but she has made abundantly clear the steadfastness of her commitment to "us". As I've told her - I trust her implicitly. She's the constant in the equation - it's the others who are the variable. And even if you fully subscribe to the "acting" part of it... "it's not me, it's a character" (and that is not meant to be snide) - it's generally not acting for the other person. While they may recognize it as fantasy, they are still very much themselves. I know - I've been there. And, on top of that, there's simply the idea of me not being a huge fan of several strangers' hands on my girlfriend... not trying to stake a claim - but it doesn't thrill me.

All that being said... I'm really working on it (hence looking up this site) and even if I don't like it, want to be able to support her as my girlfriend.

That is all... sorry for the long post. ;D


You do realize you just compared your relationship to being horribly painful killed right? It's not that bad. LOL

See, when you say there's kissing and boob touching going on - that's a high contact place to me. There are a lot of different opinions on that though.

All I can say is you're relationship is very new and the situation is very new. If you trust her, you don't have anything to worry about unless you think she's working in a place where she could be forced. Then maybe a new club is in order. Otherwise, it takes two to do something that would make you feel betrayed. Just express what you think is unacceptable work behavior, be willing to make compromises and don't nag her about it. Good luck and just remember... the close mindedness in your first paragraph may cause problems in your future.

noggin77
05-09-2008, 11:17 PM
You do realize you just compared your relationship to being horribly painful killed right? It's not that bad. LOL
Yes, I realize that. ::) - hence the "please excuse this awful metaphor". My intention was simply to say that it was easier to become acclimated to the situation since it existed from the beginning than it would be to be sideswiped by it later.

Again, it has little, if anything, to do with trust or betrayal. I know what the deal is and did from the beginning. It simply has to do with my ability to cope with what is or may be going on while she's there. She's doing what is good for her and I'm not going to ask her to change (and will try to avoid nagging!). These are her choices, not mine. I don't want to lose her and therefore, I surmise, must make a paradigm shift. This, then, is a step in that direction.

xdamage
05-10-2008, 02:55 AM
I know this is for customers asking dancers questions but I have a question for the customers. When you meet some1 for the very 1st time & you find out the girl is a stripper, is that a turn on or turn off? I know some people are all like ECKKK but others are fascinated. How you guys feel?

I think you can see that this question spawns heated debate.

We have debated it on the customer side, http://www.stripclubjunkie.com many times and same old debate everytime...

Here is, maybe, an eye opening question for you. Turn it around. If you met someone for the very first time how would you feel about the guy telling you one of his preferred forms of entertainment was to go to Strip Clubs?

Ask the question of yourself seriously. People commonly talk about what they spend their time and money on entertainment wise. So how would you feel about a guy telling you he enjoyed being a customer (vs say some other entertainments like going to the movies, night clubbing, sports, live music, etc.)?

CherryonTop
05-10-2008, 06:34 AM
it probably is a double standard, but it's one that's been around for a long time. If a guy has sex, it is "way to go, man! If a girl does, it is "what a slut!" Probably a carry over from historical times when a man's inheritance went to his children, and the man needed to ensure that the offspring were his. Plus, women can get pregnant. Both of those have probably contributed to the double standard.

Ohh, so that's ok then - I mean, if it's something that's been around for a long time, then hey - it's fine, right?

*sigh*


I think you can see that this question spawns heated debate.

We have debated it on the customer side, http://www.stripclubjunkie.com many times and same old debate everytime...

Here is, maybe, an eye opening question for you. Turn it around. If you met someone for the very first time how would you feel about the guy telling you one of his preferred forms of entertainment was to go to Strip Clubs?

Ask the question of yourself seriously. People commonly talk about what they spend their time and money on entertainment wise. So how would you feel about a guy telling you he enjoyed being a customer (vs say some other entertainments like going to the movies, night clubbing, sports, live music, etc.)?

If I was already talking to the guy and interested in him, why would it phase me? So he likes naked girls - well so do I, one more thing in common!

My boyfriend likes to visit the strips occaisionally, though I guess he's not a junkie. My old flatmate was, and he's an awesome guy.

*shrug*

TheTempest
05-10-2008, 07:08 AM
I think you can see that this question spawns heated debate.

We have debated it on the customer side, http://www.stripclubjunkie.com many times and same old debate everytime...

Here is, maybe, an eye opening question for you. Turn it around. If you met someone for the very first time how would you feel about the guy telling you one of his preferred forms of entertainment was to go to Strip Clubs?

Ask the question of yourself seriously. People commonly talk about what they spend their time and money on entertainment wise. So how would you feel about a guy telling you he enjoyed being a customer (vs say some other entertainments like going to the movies, night clubbing, sports, live music, etc.)?

I personally wouldn't mind but it's still different from being a dancer and being a customer. I would be less likely to judge someone's job, it's a way to make money. Things that people do for entertainment are desires, not needs. Me making money is a NEED!

So, instead I'm going to switch it around for real. What if you met a man and he is a stripper?? I've been to male revues and those women are just as bad as some men.

I still wouldn't care 'cause he'd be smoking hot... KIDDING.

xdamage
05-10-2008, 07:58 AM
I personally wouldn't mind but it's still different from being a dancer and being a customer. I would be less likely to judge someone's job, it's a way to make money. Things that people do for entertainment are desires, not needs. Me making money is a NEED!


I am reasonably convinced now that the difference lies in the fact that sexuality is involved, and the rest of the arguments are one's of personal convienence.

I'm also convinced now that the I need a job vs a customer wants entertainment argument is a red-herring. Two examples...

First example... All people can say I NEED a job, but you probably also don't see that argument as valid if it is a job you don't approve of. For example, a lot of people don't see the "i need a job" argument as good reasoning for why there are executives making millions a year at Philip Morris. The I need vs want argument is a matter of point of view since it could be argued that we all could take other jobs, and we all could accept less money... so I need can be seen as I want this job or I want a job that pays well.

Second example... If a musician met a music listener, the musician probably does not look poorly on the listener. The whole argument of "I need a job" vs "you just WANT to listen" never enters into it. Hopefully even, the musician is appreciative that there fans out there who make the job something that pays.

p.s. side point... most customers also NEED jobs and have them. When they are not at the club they are often at their jobs to fullfil that need. But like I said, I am reasonably convinced now it's a red-herring. That the real reason for the madonna-whore and customer-loser tensions are due to the fact that human sexuality is involved.

xdamage
05-10-2008, 08:08 AM
So, instead I'm going to switch it around for real. What if you met a man and he is a stripper?? I've been to male revues and those women are just as bad as some men.


That is a good way to turn around too ;)

TheTempest
05-10-2008, 08:19 AM
I just can't agree. I don't see my need to pay my bills and survive as being the same as something that a person could easily do without, like going to a strip club or hell even listening to music (but don't ask me to stop doing it myself!) The fact is, a stripper and a dancer are in the clubs for very different reasons even though they over lap (I'm pun-ny).

I don't see an unnecessary seeking of pleasure being equal to a job. I'm not saying that I would discount a man for his place as a customer, I'm just saying that making that comparison isn't the same to me, not even close. Like I said, it's closer to compare a woman dating a male dancer.

xdamage
05-10-2008, 08:50 AM
I just can't agree. I don't see my need to pay my bills and survive as being the same as something that a person could easily do without, like going to a strip club or hell even listening to music (but don't ask me to stop doing it myself!) The fact is, a stripper and a dancer are in the clubs for very different reasons even though they over lap (I'm pun-ny).

I don't see an unnecessary seeking of pleasure being equal to a job. I'm not saying that I would discount a man for his place as a customer, I'm just saying that making that comparison isn't the same to me, not even close. Like I said, it's closer to compare a woman dating a male dancer.

The reasoning is this...

All of us need to pay bills, including the customers. Many of us do or have in our pasts worked in really crappy low paying jobs. There are thousands of possible jobs. Not all pay as well. Not all are equally easy. Still, we are adults. We live in a free country. We do have choice in what we choose to do, and how much we will make. So people aren't judging the "I need a job" part. We all have that need. They are judging the choice of that job vs all possible others. If a customer has an issue with sexuality for money, that is what they are having an issue with, not with needing a job.

The second part is that for those people whose job it is to provide entertainment, well there would be no such job if there weren't people who spent on entertainment. As an entertainer, you NEED them. Yes, it's just a choice, but it's ironic to belittle it too much because if everyone woke up tomorrow and decided spending money on entertainment was a huge waste, you'd be out of work. No customers means no job. You are in a symbiotic relationship with them, and it's a matter of POV to see yourself as in the more important symbiotic half.

p.s. I wanted to add here too... Stripping is arguably just a want, period.
Many societies survive and thrive just fine without strip clubs. People manage to find work. People manage to be entertained. From a certain POV then, both those who find work in the field and those who enjoy it as the entertained are beneficiaries of the freedom to live in a society that allows it, but it is not a NEED. Societies don't NEED Strip Clubs if your definition of is feeding people, clothing them, just the bare basics needed to sustain life.

Stripping is a want. Workers want it. Customers want it. But it could be argued it is just entertainment and not really necessary to survival. If all SCs were closed tomorrow nothing dramatic would change. People would go on working. People would go on being entertained via other venues. You'd be personally affected and have to different job, maybe one that pays less, maybe barely survive, but then if we take the extreme argument, most of us Americans live far better then many in the world. Many live on much less, and would argue that much of what American's see as NEED is just WANT.

TheTempest
05-10-2008, 09:02 AM
I was referring to discounting someone as a potential partner though. I know I need customers just as much as they need us.

To your original point, if I met a guy and I really liked him or felt he was worth investigating and I found out he was a strip club patron, I wouldn't bat an eyelash and I feel most would agree. Again, I only feel this way as to OTC meetings because ... well honestly I rarely have enough time to really get to know someone while at work. And true, it's not my priority. I'm not saying I don't give a shit about them, I just can't memorize everyone's life story in an hour. I don't see myself being intrigued by someone who comes into the club enough to date. It could happen though. Some guys have really turned my head.

AtomicPunk
05-10-2008, 09:27 AM
I asked that same question and got very little reply. I guess it's b/c I'm what forum people call a "newbie". Oh well lesson learned

xdamage
05-10-2008, 10:19 AM
To your original point, if I met a guy and I really liked him or felt he was worth investigating and I found out he was a strip club patron, I wouldn't bat an eyelash and I feel most would agree.

That's good.

I agree, it's just interesting because stripping is one of those jobs/entertainments where there seems to be such tension. Customers and Dancers both benefit, yet the Madonna-Whore and Customer-Loser mindset enters into it.

I guess it's just that way when it comes to sexuality. It raises such strong feelings in us people, good or bad. I think a lot of other jobs are far more neutral in most people's minds because sexuality is not involved.

Dottie Rebel
05-10-2008, 10:26 AM
it probably is a double standard, but it's one that's been around for a long time. If a guy has sex, it is "way to go, man! If a girl does, it is "what a slut!" Probably a carry over from historical times when a man's inheritance went to his children, and the man needed to ensure that the offspring were his. Plus, women can get pregnant. Both of those have probably contributed to the double standard.

The only thing keeping the double standard alive nowadays is people who think like you. You stop, it stops. Simple.

Djoser
05-10-2008, 11:43 AM
The double standard is alive and kicking, trust me. Sad but true.

It comes from men and women both, and both must share the blame for allowing their limited imagination dictate social norms.

You can see it right here. Though when so many guys are obsessed with getting as much as they can from a 20$ lapdance, it is sometimes more apparent here in CC, lol.

But I have seen women get all bent out of shape when a guy posts the same exact kind of thing women post constantly.



But its okay for you to be grinded on by strange girls right?

She scores! LOL...

Jenny
05-10-2008, 12:39 PM
But I have seen women get all bent out of shape when a guy posts the same exact kind of thing women post constantly.No offence djoser, but I think generally when guys say that it is because they are not particularly awake to the different nuances involved. I mean, some guys are used to communicating with women in certain ways (and definitely guys who frequent strip clubs as customers or employees tend to fall into this pattern) and are blind to the subtle differences between, for example, admiration and approval. Or at least I've personally noticed that as a trend here when guys make that complaint.

Everyman
05-10-2008, 01:05 PM
The only thing keeping the double standard alive nowadays is people who think like you. You stop, it stops. Simple.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with a double standard. "Double standard" is just a way of saying that different people get treated differently....18 y/o get to vote, 17 don't; girls make it into Playboy, guys don't (and Playgirl was NEVER as popular); guys make it into the NBA, girls don't (and the WNBA is NEVER as popular); male strippers are far less common than female, simply because most consider the female form to be more pleasing than the male; there are no "Hooter guys"; by and large, males are still expected to be the "money men" all the way from dating thru sustaining a family; many studies show that good-looking people are treated better by society than the ugly; etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc a million times etc.

Whenever I hear the term "double standards", I don't think anything negative. I just think, "life".

Djoser
05-10-2008, 02:02 PM
No offence djoser, but I think generally when guys say that it is because they are not particularly awake to the different nuances involved. I mean, some guys are used to communicating with women in certain ways (and definitely guys who frequent strip clubs as customers or employees tend to fall into this pattern) and are blind to the subtle differences between, for example, admiration and approval. Or at least I've personally noticed that as a trend here when guys make that complaint.

None taken.

However, I am quite aware of subtlety, nuances, and the difference between admiration and approval, whether given or received. The double standard exists, nonetheless--and women are as involved in its perpetuation as men.

Women also become accustomed to communicating with guys in certain ways (especially in stripclubs), and are often blind to the difference between stereotypical customer/rude male staff behavior, and that of other men who are quite different.

Which is unfortunate. It would be great if we could all transcend this sort of thing. But I fear we have a ways to go, in the present state of society. Blaming either sex is not the way to go. So let's not argue about it, what do you say, lol?

Though I do agree, of course, that guys who judge strippers harshly while continuing to buy dances, and spend hours daily on stripper websites, are hypocrites.

xdamage
05-10-2008, 03:02 PM
The double standard is alive and kicking, trust me. Sad but true.

It comes from men and women both, and both must share the blame for allowing their limited imagination dictate social norms.

Agreed, and yes, it comes from both sexes. That is the reality, like you wrote, sad but true.

Mastridonicus
05-10-2008, 08:30 PM
Knowing a woman is a stripper can be a massive turn on to me. I am heavily attracted to a woman who is a culmination of certain qualities based on personality. One of the potential results of this quality/personality mix I like is a strong sexual appetite, and one of the many things a woman can do to express her sexual appetite is stripping. It is for this reason I can be attracted to porn stars, escorts, swingers, sex store workers, bus drivers, et cetera.

When RoseWhite strips it's like a different side to her that I only see on the pole and it stirs different reactions from attraction to her. This would be the case, EVEN as friends. I have no control over her no matter how I would try, which makes all her decisions interesting and often very attractive. I could hate her stripping, but it's not about me. It's about her.

Tampadancer, though we've never dated or intend to, is attractive to me as stripper for similar reasons though not mutually exclusive to them.

And for what it's worth, a man who truly loves and cares about you, is going to respect and appreciate you for who you are and what you do so long as you are doing what you want.

It's not being a stripper. It's what being a stripper means to that individual. Strippers that strip JUST for the money, rarely attractive to me as a stripper. There's just too many nuances since, well, attraction isn't a choice, while being a stripper is.

Silverback
05-10-2008, 09:14 PM
Agreed, and yes, it comes from both sexes. That is the reality, like you wrote, sad but true.


No. No. No!!! You don't understand. Men are bad. And wrong. Even if they're saying and doing the same thing as women. It's bad. Because they're men.

Can it be any clearer!?

AznExtasy
05-10-2008, 09:16 PM
"I'm a (spending) customer".
Now that's a big turn on.

youngBUTbanking
05-11-2008, 01:02 AM
Indifferent pretty much...

msonyxorb
05-11-2008, 03:07 AM
it probably is a double standard, but it's one that's been around for a long time. If a guy has sex, it is "way to go, man! If a girl does, it is "what a slut!" Probably a carry over from historical times when a man's inheritance went to his children, and the man needed to ensure that the offspring were his. Plus, women can get pregnant. Both of those have probably contributed to the double standard.
Like atomic said, this double standard no longer exists nor have i ever heard of it really existing. if a guy or girl has sex the guy or girl is considered sexually active
if a guy has sex with lots of random girls he is considered dirty and desperate a pig. if his friends are losers they will cheer him on
if a girl has sex with lots of random guys she is considered dirty and desperate and a slut. if her friends are losers they will cheer her on.
the words may be different but they are still categorized accordingly.

potato
05-11-2008, 04:30 PM
I would find it more intriguing than a turn on. I’ve hung out with enough women who had been strippers that a woman telling me that she was a stripper would be enough to cause me a measure of curiosity. There tends to be certain characteristic mannerisms and attitudes that tend to prevail among women who are strippers. I find it all rather interesting.

Once there was this woman who I knew to be a stripper. When I met her I really liked her a lot but somewhere, there in the back of my thoughts, was that my interest in her was being exaggerated by her being a stripper. So I told her that I had this theory that a couple works best when both partners have compatible vices and views of those vices. When she asked me what my vices were I told her that I only had two, “weed and strippers.” She got all excited like, bouncing up and down, clapping her hands, going, “Oh lucky me.” I guess it all depends on the point of view of those involved.

My gf used to be a stripper and it never bothered me. In fact I always felt kind of proud of her. I’ve never worried about her sharing her sexuality because I always trusted that she would keep her distance.

Besides, in the course of an average day I often hug as many as six different women. Some of them will grind on me far more than my gf would ever grind on one of her customers. In the grand scheme of things, it’s no big deal.

AtomicPunk
05-11-2008, 06:16 PM
I would find it more intriguing than a turn on. I’ve hung out with enough women who had been strippers that a woman telling me that she was a stripper would be enough to cause me a measure of curiosity.

I've gotten a little bored with this thread but I wanted to comment on that b/c it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'd think the more you're around a person who does any kind of job the curiosity and/or intrigue level would drop. I've known a lot of strippers, too many to be honest, and I have absolutely no curiosity about their job. I may be curious at to how, or if it's effected them in some way. And even than it would only be if I already found them interesting and maybe wanted some sort of relationship with them..... whether that was just a friendship or whatever. But hells fuck bells maybe that's just me.


There tends to be certain characteristic mannerisms and attitudes that tend to prevail among women who are strippers.

And not for nothing but good luck with that comment there brother.

Benjamin
05-11-2008, 08:30 PM
Turns ME on.

Why the shit do you think I'm see'n her so much?!

TheSexKitten
05-12-2008, 09:53 AM
Like atomic said, this double standard no longer exists nor have i ever heard of it really existing. if a guy or girl has sex the guy or girl is considered sexually active
if a guy has sex with lots of random girls he is considered dirty and desperate a pig. if his friends are losers they will cheer him on
if a girl has sex with lots of random guys she is considered dirty and desperate and a slut. if her friends are losers they will cheer her on.
the words may be different but they are still categorized accordingly.

:no: Absolutely not true.

And I quote myself,

"The word “slut” is commonly used and still has no masculine counterpart bearing equally virulent implications."

"Because of the pervasiveness of such double standards within society, sexual relationships are forced into a specific pattern with set rules and guidelines. Men are expected to initiate most sexual encounters and relationships, and women are expected to succumb but only after certain criteria are met. Outings, gifts, and promises of monogamous commitment are several examples of the arbitrary markers for a woman allowing herself to indulge in sex without fear of societal or internalized, personal reprisal. In this way, the female sexuality is essentially commoditized. “Men who have sex are said to ‘get some.’ Women who have sex without getting enough in exchange are said to be ‘cheap,’” (Kalbfleisch 157)."


This standard is absolutely alive and kickin', doll. Especially outside of our particular culture, and though slowly diminishing, still very much within as well.

RoseLeigh
05-12-2008, 10:07 AM
Turns ME on.

Why the shit do you think I'm see'n her so much?!

Benji! You're back. Come give us all some love. ;D

TheTempest
05-12-2008, 01:44 PM
Like atomic said, this double standard no longer exists nor have i ever heard of it really existing. if a guy or girl has sex the guy or girl is considered sexually active
if a guy has sex with lots of random girls he is considered dirty and desperate a pig. if his friends are losers they will cheer him on
if a girl has sex with lots of random guys she is considered dirty and desperate and a slut. if her friends are losers they will cheer her on.
the words may be different but they are still categorized accordingly.

You are completely incorrect. The double standard does still exists. Women are still very much considered sluts if they have multiple sexual partners, or even if they don't want a monogamous relationship. Women with children from multiple partners are seen to be the ones who are at fault for their situation and the fathers are left to pay child support IF THEY CAN or sometimes even if they feel like it.

I don't understand how you can feel that the standards are the same for men and women. I'm in a FB situation and he's congratulated on his ability to remain in a non-monogamous relationship while I am constantly criticized.


Turns ME on.

Why the shit do you think I'm see'n her so much?!

OH THANK G-D YOU'RE HERE! I've missed you so much. :-*

AtomicPunk
05-12-2008, 01:58 PM
I still don't think it exists anymore. I think people's attitudes towards sex have changed in a lot of different ways. We live and have lived in a world where STD's are very prevelent and I think anybody guy or girl who has a lot of partners is considered a whore or a slut. With that said it isn't the 50's anymore. It's now ok for women to admit they have sexual desires, needs, etc. too not just men. If I meet a chick that hasn't had many partners find it strange. I do think it's still a fairly new concept and one that society is generally still getting used to, or learning to accept.

TheTempest
05-12-2008, 02:41 PM
I still don't think it exists anymore. I think people's attitudes towards sex have changed in a lot of different ways. We live and have lived in a world where STD's are very prevelent and I think anybody guy or girl who has a lot of partners is considered a whore or a slut. With that said it isn't the 50's anymore. It's now ok for women to admit they have sexual desires, needs, etc. too not just men. If I meet a chick that hasn't had many partners find it strange. I do think it's still a fairly new concept and one that society is generally still getting used to, or learning to accept.

But it's still GOOD for men to be promiscuous! It's still "boys will be boys". If you find a woman who hasn't had many partners you're may find it a little strange, but if you met a man who hadn't you'd say he must be gay!

CinammonGirl
05-12-2008, 03:01 PM
You are completely incorrect. The double standard does still exists. Women are still very much considered sluts if they have multiple sexual partners, or even if they don't want a monogamous relationship.

I agree that it exists, BUT it depends on who you're talking to.

When I lived in Alabama, it definitely existed. When I went to rich, preppy highschool in the Chicago suburbs, it existed. On Yahoo answers, I've seen females get criticized for posting questions about having casual sex.


But if I'm posting on here, I can freely talk about my sexual experiences without being judged. If I'm talking to young liberals, they probably wouldn't care either. :)

TheTempest
05-12-2008, 03:15 PM
I agree that it exists, BUT it depends on who you're talking to.

When I lived in Alabama, it definitely existed. When I went to rich, preppy highschool in the Chicago suburbs, it existed. On Yahoo answers, I've seen females get criticized for posting questions about having casual sex.


But if I'm posting on here, I can freely talk about my sexual experiences without being judged. If I'm talking to young liberals, they probably wouldn't care either. :)

OK, I'll agree. THERE ARE people who don't live by the double standard but I would have to say that the people who feel the way most SW folks do are rare. It could just be my experience but considering that I live in a very liberal state, I think it would be WORSE elsewhere if this is the attitude I get here.

CinammonGirl
05-12-2008, 03:36 PM
OK, I'll agree. THERE ARE people who don't live by the double standard but I would have to say that the people who feel the way most SW folks do are rare. It could just be my experience but considering that I live in a very liberal state, I think it would be WORSE elsewhere if this is the attitude I get here.


I know what you mean. There are SOME people who don't live by the double-standard, but they're not always easy to find from my experience.

My experience is that even when people say they're open-minded, they can turn around and say the opposite behind your back. :-\

TheSexKitten
05-12-2008, 07:07 PM
But if I'm posting on here, I can freely talk about my sexual experiences without being judged. If I'm talking to young liberals, they probably wouldn't care either. :)

TBH though, strippers and liberal college students make up only a tiny, relatively very "deviant" section of the culture at large, so to say the double standards have gone extinct is fallacious.

Even within groups of very liberal people, refrences still slip out here and there and there are still invisible lines that cannot be crossed (or talked about, because everyone's pretend to be cool and liberal). I can't count how many times I've been talking to "liberal, progressive" dudes and have them recoil any real interest in me as a person the moment I mention that I strip to have that interest replaced by a sick fascination with my intellectual functioning and sexual availability.

CinammonGirl
05-12-2008, 08:03 PM
I can't count how many times I've been talking to "liberal, progressive" dudes and have them recoil any real interest in me as a person the moment I mention that I strip to have that interest replaced by a sick fascination with my intellectual functioning and sexual availability.


You're right, and I had to learn this the hard way. Anyone can easily "claim" to be liberal. Actions speak louder than words.

Nicolina
05-12-2008, 09:04 PM
I haven't read the whole thread...but I'm not really buying the "It's just a job" thing.

I think a woman has to have certain traits to choose, survive & enjoy a career as a stripper. Even though every dancer comes to the job as an individual, I think it attracts women who share some similarities. Some of these are included in the stripper stereotype, but many are not.

This is true for most occupations: computer programmers, LE officers, history professors, professional athletes, fashion designers, etc etc...People drawn to a particular profession tend to share certain traits--some stereotypical, some not. I think it's especially true when the job itself carries a stigma and/or is associated with an insular subculture (e.g. "the thin blue line"). Stripping qualifies on both those counts.

And the job does affect you. I have never met a woman who has spent any time in the sex industry who didn't feel somehow changed by it. A lot of it has to do with the subculture and the stigma...But some of it is the work itself.

If a guy I was dating just glossed over it like, "Oh, well, that was just your job, it doesn't change how I think of you at all, I'm sure you were just doing it to pay the rent and it has nothing to do with who you are as a person"...Honestly, that would be a big red flag for me. I'd think the guy was either (a) an idiot or (b) a liar.

TheSexKitten
05-12-2008, 10:04 PM
If a guy I was dating just glossed over it like, "...it has nothing to do with who you are as a person"...Honestly, that would be a big red flag for me. I'd think the guy was either (a) an idiot or (b) a liar.

YES, and I'd wonder why is must be asserted that it doesn't represent me as a person. Um, yes, it was a job I chose and did for several years, and why is that a bad thing? It's so subtle but very insulting.

AtomicPunk
05-12-2008, 10:34 PM
but if you met a man who hadn't you'd say he must be gay!

Altho the way you put it gave me a chuckle I don't know if I agree. If I met a guy my age than yeah I'd probably think the cat was a little off but if he was in his early to mid 20's I mite not.

My friends used to call me a manwhore and I don't say that proudly at all I'm simply trying to make a point. I've been with women......somewhere in the 3 figure range and apparently that didn't make me studly dudley it made me a manwhore.

I have to ad I would never promote that lifestyle. I missed out on a lot of normal things most people experience. For example I'm 35 and I haven't been on a "real" date since I was in my teens. I lived by the philosophy find'em fuck'em and flee, or find'em fuck'em and kick'em out and apparently that didn't make me the king of kings it gave me a really bad rep with both guys and women. So I think women are allowed to admit they like sex w/o being considered a whore or a slut and if guys are with a lot of chicks they're not getting high-fives they're labeled a male slut or manwhore. I think if anybody these days has or has had a lot of partners they're labeled a slut. I once had a chick say to me, who was a slut herself, before I'd have sex with you you'd have to be tested......that could very possibly be rock bottom.

potato
05-12-2008, 11:16 PM
b/c it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'd think the more you're around a person who does any kind of job the curiosity and/or intrigue level would drop. I've known a lot of strippers, too many to be honest, and I have absolutely no curiosity about their job. That’s not what would raise my curiosity.

It is as Nicolina said,
I think a woman has to have certain traits to choose, survive & enjoy a career as a stripper.





It just seems to me that women who strip tend to be interesting characters.

xdamage
05-12-2008, 11:27 PM
I still don't think it exists anymore. I think people's attitudes towards sex have changed in a lot of different ways.

True story...

I have co-workers over in the Netherlands. The Dutch pride themselves on being sexually liberal, and on the forefront of accepting prostitution as a valid line of work, yet...

So I was having a conversation with two co-workers, both female, both about 25, both brag about how sexually liberal they are, one "very very close", and the topic of strippers came up. They both, without thinking, did a "eww..., next thing after stripping next job is whore". This was not said in a positive way.

Now while two people certainly is not a scientific study, the point is that even sexually active women don't necessarily see stripping or other sex work as an admirable profession.

The related point is that it is not just men who contribute to the social beliefs. Women really do have brains. They really do actively participate in forming social norms and beliefs, and they really don't all see paid-for sexual activity as admirable work.

Worse, even among this group of strippers, as politically incorrect as it is say, even this group often is negative towards sex workers who engage in higher levels of contact. So that is fine, the line in the sand is drawn further out, but it's all relative. Those whose line is further out we are inclined to see as skanky, those who think the line should be less then us, we see as bad for pushing their standard on others.

Everyone in our society is a contributor to our society, even if it is just in the smallest of ways, the sum total contribution of all people is what results in the societies beliefs. Personally I think double standards (and may other divisions) are alive and well, but it is sad that people keep pointing fingers in every direction but towards themselves. It's we/us people, both sexes, who have and will go on creating social standards, including the double ones.

TheSexKitten
05-12-2008, 11:46 PM
The related point is that it is not just men who contribute to the social beliefs. Women really do have brains. They really do actively participate in forming social norms and beliefs, and they really don't all see paid-for sexual activity as admirable work.

Worse, even among this group of strippers, as politically incorrect as it is say, even this group often is negative towards sex workers who engage in higher levels of contact. So that is fine, the line in the sand is drawn further out, but it's all relative. Those whose line is further out we are inclined to see as skanky, those who think the line should be less then us, we see as bad for pushing their standard on others.

Everyone in our society is a contributor to our society, even if it is just in the smallest of ways, the sum total contribution of all people is what results in the societies beliefs. Personally I think double standards (and may other divisions) are alive and well, but it is sad that people keep pointing fingers in every direction but towards themselves. It's we/us people, both sexes, who have and will go on creating social standards, including the double ones.

Thankyouthankyouthankyou

Needless to say, iawtc!

AtomicPunk
05-13-2008, 12:01 AM
And the job does affect you. I have never met a woman who has spent any time in the sex industry who didn't feel somehow changed by it. A lot of it has to do with the subculture and the stigma...But some of it is the work itself.


Man was I happy to see someone say that b/c I agree completely. I didn't want to come rite out and say it b/c I didn't want to be flamed. Altho I don't know why. I promised myself this time around I was going to say exactly what I was thinking and not worry about reaction.

I have known a couple the biz hasn't changed but they weren't stay in it very long either. I think women in this biz have to be very mentally tough or it will destroy them from the inside. And not b/c of itself but it had a major effect on their attitudes towards men in general. The last chick I was with being a good example. She had been in the biz more than 10 years and thought every guy that came into the club was a PL that couldn't get any w/o paying for it. Which is fine to think about guys that go into the club but she took that tude into her everyday life. She got to a point where she could not have normal relationships with guys. She thought all any guy wanted from her was sex and she didn't know how to have relationships with guys except sexually. Now she's an extreme example but the most recent I have.

Jenny
05-13-2008, 01:22 AM
And the job does affect you. I have never met a woman who has spent any time in the sex industry who didn't feel somehow changed by it. A lot of it has to do with the subculture and the stigma...But some of it is the work itself.

If a guy I was dating just glossed over it like, "Oh, well, that was just your job, it doesn't change how I think of you at all, I'm sure you were just doing it to pay the rent and it has nothing to do with who you are as a person"...Honestly, that would be a big red flag for me. I'd think the guy was either (a) an idiot or (b) a liar.
I think what people were responding to was the caste system of good women and bad women (in which strippers got to be bad women). Does the job affect you? Sure. Does it make us bad or less than other women? If it does in someone's perception, I feel perfectly entitled to call that perception "wrong". I actually think being jealous over the job is perfectly rational; I do not think it perfectly rational to declare "strippers are only good for one thing."

I'm not sure how much is related to the work over the stigma; I think it is very hard to imagine the work without the stigma.

AtomicPunk
05-13-2008, 01:51 AM
isn't that a big part of the attraction of s stripclub the girls are perceived as bad?
isn't that also part of the fun of the job getting to be something you may not normally be? In other words playing the role of something you mite not normally be.
For example Henry Winkler loved playing Fonzie and part of that was b/c he was nothing like that in real life but always kind of wanted to be.

I have a firm belief that stereotypes exist for a reason, that they didn't just come out of nowhere. I'm not saying all strippers fall into that stereo type, IMO most don't, but it wasn't just made up for no reason either. That goes for anything I just used strippers as an example.

xdamage
05-13-2008, 05:57 AM
isn't that a big part of the attraction of s stripclub the girls are perceived as bad?
isn't that also part of the fun of the job getting to be something you may not normally be? In other words playing the role of something you mite not normally be.

This has also come up repeatedly in other threads, and yes I think you are right about that.

In addition to the perceived value (which is related to perceived rarity), as the social stigma about stripping decreases in our society, stripping becomes more accepted, it means more people are willing to do the job because the stigma isn't stopping them from entering the job market. That hurts the existing dancers by increasing the number of women competing for customer dollars.

So ironically, yes there is something to be said for the good old days when there was more stigma associated with stripping and fewer women were willing to put up with it.

msonyxorb
05-13-2008, 05:23 PM
:no: Absolutely not true.

And I quote myself,

"The word “slut” is commonly used and still has no masculine counterpart bearing equally virulent implications."

"Because of the pervasiveness of such double standards within society, sexual relationships are forced into a specific pattern with set rules and guidelines. Men are expected to initiate most sexual encounters and relationships, and women are expected to succumb but only after certain criteria are met. Outings, gifts, and promises of monogamous commitment are several examples of the arbitrary markers for a woman allowing herself to indulge in sex without fear of societal or internalized, personal reprisal. In this way, the female sexuality is essentially commoditized. “Men who have sex are said to ‘get some.’ Women who have sex without getting enough in exchange are said to be ‘cheap,’” (Kalbfleisch 157)."


This standard is absolutely alive and kickin', doll. Especially outside of our particular culture, and though slowly diminishing, still very much within as well.
A "pig" is the masculine counterpart. I have heard other terms used but can't remember them at the moment.
Honestly, the people who congratulate men and look down on women for doing the same actions are all dumb asses anyway. For the most part if you are pro promiscuity, you are going to congratulate both men and women for it, and if you are against it you will look down on both men and women for doing it. I dont know many people who think its cool for a man to be slutty but not for a woman. In fact in middle and highschool I felt like a loser because I was not a slut, which was seen as a compliment by many of my trashy classmates, whether you are a man or a woman.

You did mention other cultures, and yes I know it exists in like arab nations and such, but I dont see it very often in the US. and Arab nations are weird anyway. If a man has to have a mistress and its a crime for a woman to have sex outside of marriage, then where are all these mistresses supposed to appear from? Its really fucked up.

msonyxorb
05-13-2008, 05:26 PM
I don't understand how you can feel that the standards are the same for men and women. I'm in a FB situation and he's congratulated on his ability to remain in a non-monogamous relationship while I am constantly criticized.



OH THANK G-D YOU'RE HERE! I've missed you so much. :-*

Who are you criticized by? The same people who congratulate him? I have a feeling the people criticizing and the people congratulating are different people, that is why you are getting different reactions. I criticize my male friends for having sex outside of relationships all the time and I know others who do the same.
Another reason you are getting criticized more has more to do with the fact that it is EASY for a woman to be in an un-monogamous (it is not an accomplishment) whereas for a man its harder to convince a woman to sleep with him without commitment.

msonyxorb
05-13-2008, 05:29 PM
But it's still GOOD for men to be promiscuous! It's still "boys will be boys". If you find a woman who hasn't had many partners you're may find it a little strange, but if you met a man who hadn't you'd say he must be gay!
It depends who you ask. I dont think its good for men to be promiscuous. In fact I find it disgusting and it makes me less likely to ever want to go out with them because they have been "used" so many times. If i find a man who hasnt had many partners I find him to be a catch and will be more willing to be more sexual adventurous with him because he is less likely to have as many stds as a guy who has had 30 plus partners. I would also take it as a sign that he has high standards and probably only has sex when he is in love, which is a sign of a guy who is into commitment, which is also a good thing.
The same people who say boys will be boys will also say that girls can sleep around too and will admire Paris Hilton and other Hollywood skanks.

BTW what is a PL?