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Electrum
05-25-2008, 03:31 PM
^^ I just wonder what the true motives of the probation system are sometimes. I know that wasn't exactly a great example, but I've seen people slip up, not like going out and getting drunk slip up, but simply miss a meeting and end up in jail over the weekend or paying more fines. My point is that the approach some of these courts take on alcoholism doesn't make much sense to me.

(Oh and it still blows my mind that my mom has gotten in more legal trouble because of her 2nd DUI than an abuser can get in a domestic violence case. It seems to me that they are at least equally as bad considering in both cases people can die!? This might just be in my state, though, I'm not sure.)

Andygirl
05-25-2008, 04:43 PM
On the question why atheists would feel uncomfortable with AA is that atheists prefer to rely on themselves and their minds alone. The idea of "admitting powerlessness" and "turning one's life over to a higher power" is repulsive to them.


Admitting powerlessness has zero to do with God, religion, or anything of the sort. It is admitting that, once you drink or take a drug, that you are powerless over it. And as "repulsive" as that may sound, it is the honest truth for most addicts. I can see why this might be hard to grasp if you aren't an addict, but those of us who are know that it is true (at least the ones who can admit they have a problem. Yes, it is a humbling thing, but it is necessary for those who wish to recover.

As for turning it over, etc., yes that is a problem for agnostics and atheists. However, it is possible to do a version of the 12 steps that don't involve God.

But again, no one is saying that the OP has to do anything but attend the meetings for her probation. It's something that almost anyone with an alcohol related arrest has to do. And I don't see anything wrong with it. Even if you aren't an alcoholic, it can be a very good way to understand the adverse affect of alcohol in some people's lives. For some, this can be a very good deterrant, and that's the whole point, isn't it?

Electrum
05-25-2008, 06:08 PM
^^ There are groups for people who believe they do have power over alcohol but "choose" to not drink, or to use moderation. Those groups do help people as well, but I've also witnessed alcoholics spiral even further down the poop shoot attempting that approach. I think it really does depend on the individual, but most people maintain that alcoholism is a disease, so it's hard to have "control" over a disease.

Personally I'm not sure what to believe. I know that I've seen people get sober many different ways. For as much shit as AA gets I really do give the program props. I've seen it save lives. And I suppose I should mention that I've tried to be sober, but never works for me. I still struggle with whether or not I'm an alcoholic. It seems like sometimes I can use moderation, for years even, without problems; but then I have one major incident that makes me stop and think. I know I have problems with other drugs and I still use them occationally too. I go to meetings on and off depending on whether or not I think I have a problem at the time. Funny I know. I don't get my addictions either :(

Electrum
05-25-2008, 07:12 PM
I think part of the reason "powerlessness" makes sense to some people is because when they try to have power, or they try to take control, it just leads to them drinking/drugging. Like I said before, I'm not an expert on the steps or anything, but some people cannot take control without fucking it up. And I don't think it has to do with their personality or will power or anything like that, it probably has something to do with their disease.

I'm a spiritual person, so I always interpreted that step as the generic kinda "God is in control" Christian way. Obviously other people don't see it that way, so I'm not sure how to explain it in a way that doesn't sound so demeaning. All I can say is that from what I've seen, that step when worked on is not as demeaning as it initially sounds (according to my family). It's just a way of surrendering yourself to the program, if that makes sense?

Surrendering yourself to something that can work for you (a program), instead of trying to control something and having it work against you (alcoholism).

Perry
05-26-2008, 12:57 AM
How can you avoid being around religion? We do live in the US. It's everywhere. Nothing is changing that anytime soon.
The constition clearly states, "Seperation of church and state." So, it shouldn't work that way. I'm going to talk to my probation officer about doing volunteer work instead of AA.


I've never attended an AA meeting so I have no idea what they consider being active and not being active. I dunno.
And yet you're so very educated on it. Kudos for your valuble insight drawn from zero expeirience. ::)


honestly i think its unfair to attend and not be active while there then expect the card to be signed. It wouldn't be fair to those that actually do as they were asked.

The one intelligent post you've offered so far! I don't feel that I'm an alcoholic, and I don't beleive in a higher power, so I really don't belong in AA. My sentance demeans a real desease. AA is a personal choice.

Sophia_Ashley
05-26-2008, 01:42 AM
^ being in denial is a personal choice as well.
Good luck to you

Sirona
05-26-2008, 05:13 AM
The constition clearly states, "Seperation of church and state." So, it shouldn't work that way. I'm going to talk to my probation officer about doing volunteer work instead of AA.


And yet you're so very educated on it. Kudos for your valuble insight drawn from zero expeirience. ::)



The one intelligent post you've offered so far! I don't feel that I'm an alcoholic, and I don't beleive in a higher power, so I really don't belong in AA. My sentance demeans a real desease. AA is a personal choice.

AA ISN'T A CHURCH!

Is there a reading comprehension issue going around?

Andygirl
05-26-2008, 08:11 AM
AA ISN'T A CHURCH!

Is there a reading comprehension issue going around?


Sounds like she'll fine out about AA soon enough, lol.

threlayer
05-26-2008, 08:32 AM
I read your rehab thread (which was interesting) and most of this thread. My summary is that you have accepted everything except the AA an the cynical attitude of the authorities as just another method for gleaning finances out of the public.

I surely your anger understand at the cynicism of our elected/appointed officials for this huge alcohol addiction problem in society. I have the same feelings and I've never gotten any kind of alcohol-related offense. But other traffic infractions are treated the exact same way by the courts, which have becme a profit-center for local/state govmts.

I hope you find another equivalent program that you can attend and that you get permission to do so. Even if they are immovable, going to the AA meetings for 18 months is better than a jail term and becoming known as a recalcitrant in the legal system. Sounds like they already know you're a dancer, and I wouldn't give them another opportunity to discriminate against you personally.

If you find another alcohol program, maybe the system admins. can help you convince the court system to allow you to substitue it for AA; possibly the court is unaware of it. I do not think a non-alcohol-related community service program is going to be allowed. I wouldn't even bring that up because it sounds like your rejection of the alcohol issue, and this they will not give up on. I don't have other specific suggestions about that issue--sorry.

But I wonder if you are yet fully aware of your alcohol problem in the sense that alcoholics are defined as persons having problems with their alcohol usage over some time period. I think you need to reconsider that it is a matter of definition. Even if you never drink alcohol again, if the desire to get high is there, you're an alcoholic but a 'recovering' one. This is from what I've read regarding a close friend whom I've tried to help. I myself don't understand the desire to get high, so I have no first-hand knowledge. But I did read all of what you'e posted here abuot that problem, hence my suggestion.

I don't mean to be argumentive as others here have been. I just wanted to bring up a few new issues to consider.

VegasPrincess
05-26-2008, 01:02 PM
Let's be perfectly honest--not everyone who gets a DUI is an alcoholic. It's ridiculous to require someone to attend alcohol rehab when they're not an alcoholic.

Thank you, MADD!

Thank you. I have to go to an alcohol assesment class as well, and am DREADING it. *unless I can by some miracle get these charges dismissed or plead down* I had been out to dinner, then stopped at a bar literally three or four blocks from my house. I got pulled over for having bad plates, not driving all weird or anything :( While I like to drink, I would hardly consider myself an alcoholic or a problem drinker.... unfortunately, the court system makes it like everyone who gets a DUI/OWI is a total wasted drunk ass.

shift_6x
05-26-2008, 01:09 PM
[quote=Sirona;1558322]You do not have to participate in meetings. Some people it takes quite a bit of time before they are in a place where they can introduce themselves, never mind share.


Very well put...I agree 100%!

Sirona
05-26-2008, 01:49 PM
Pan Dah,

How about instead of posting someone else's interpretation of the program, read it yourself. Or hell, even better, go check them out first hand. All i'm seeing is a lot of algorical, 5th hand, "I heard from my mom's cousin" accounts about how you have to believe in god and love jesus to be in AA.
It simply isn't true.

The program clearly states (and i'm copy /pasting it from one of my earlier posts) A Higher Power can be anything or anyone, dead or alive, that the member feels is adequate – the sky, the Sun, the ocean, Nature, consciousness, existential freedom, their twelve-step group, God, science, gravity – it simply should be something "greater" than themselves.

Notice how the word greater is in quotes? That's because "greater" means different things to different people. For some people it means god for others its that sideways triangle than means the opposite of "lesser than". < >

As a group they embrace people of all sorts (or lack there of) of religious groups. Just because the particular meeting you go to has more of one type doesn't by default mean everyone has to belong to that group. It just means when people talk about what worked for THEM (not what they're telling you YOU have to do) they might talk about thier god (or lack of) than yours.

Oh and hey, here's a thought...

It's so unfair and unconstitutional to make someone go to an AA meeting against thier will?

How unfair is it to the people who die because someone thought "as hey, i'm not really THAT drunk, i've never done it before..."

How about thier lack of say in being killed and thier families being destroyed by the loss?

Ya but hey, that meeting thing is really fucking not fair, you're right.

VegasPrincess
05-26-2008, 03:11 PM
It's so unfair and unconstitutional to make someone go to an AA meeting against thier will?

How unfair is it to the people who die because someone thought "as hey, i'm not really THAT drunk, i've never done it before..."

How about thier lack of say in being killed and thier families being destroyed by the loss?

Ya but hey, that meeting thing is really fucking not fair, you're right.

She didn't kill anyone.... she got an OWI. You don't have to be wasted to get one.

Sirona
05-26-2008, 03:51 PM
Pan Dah, i'm not talking about whether or not the program works either.
I'm discussing the fact that it isn't a religious program.

VegasPrincess, I never said she killed anyone. You missed my point which was it could have happened. It happens all the time.

VegasPrincess
05-26-2008, 04:49 PM
^^^

I guess my point was just that anybody my size, for instance, is legally intoixicated after one glass of wine. When I got my OWI I had I think 2 glasses of champagne and 3 glasses of wine over about 6 hours and I had eaten a huge meal with it.

I don't feel that my driving that night actually put anyone in danger. The breathalyzer the cops had was deffective, so I don't really know what my blood alcohol was.... (I actually hope the charges get dismissed) but I can garuntee you it was not much over the legal limit....There's no possible way. I guess all I'm saying is that I would never drive if I was all fucked up, and I still got an OWI.... not everybody who got one was blind staggering drunk ready to run over people in the road know what I mean?

Sirona
05-26-2008, 04:53 PM
^^^

I guess my point was just that anybody my size, for instance, is legally intoixicated after one glass of wine. When I got my OWI I had I think 2 glasses of champagne and 3 glasses of wine over about 6 hours and I had eaten a huge meal with it.

I don't feel that my driving that night actually put anyone in danger. The breathalyzer the cops had was deffective, so I don't really know what my blood alcohol was.... (I actually hope the charges get dismissed) but I can garuntee you it was not much over the legal limit....There's no possible way. I guess all I'm saying is that I would never drive if I was all fucked up, and I still got an OWI.... not everybody who got one was blind staggering drunk ready to run over people in the road know what I mean?

You don't have to be blind staggering drunk to have your reflexes be off.
Look all i'm saying is the rules are there for a pretty good reason. You know you're taking a chance of getting pulled over and caught if you drink at all and drive afterwards ya know?

Make your decisions but be big enough to accept any repercussions that might occur.

threlayer
05-26-2008, 05:25 PM
This thread is mostly OFF-TRACK. Back to the OP subject.

You see, it is not about how 'high' you feel you are; it is about how much alcohol is still in your system by these legally accepted measures. It is convenient to them (and maybe to you) because the legal system doesn't have to rely on their (cops) judgement in interpreting (or lying about) tests such as touching your nose, reciting the alfabet backwards, smelling your breath, walking a straight line etc. One problem is that bad drivers are not all 'drunk' drivers, and observation of so many drivers takes time and concentration.

Thinking about how to detect drunk or otherwise impaired drivers pre-crash among the thousands of drivers they incur daily, isn't it better to have an objective way to test people than just to trust cops? I don't know really all the facts, but I think so.

Perry
05-27-2008, 09:03 AM
AA opens with the serenity prayer, ends with the lord's prayer and the steps 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 and 11 directly involve God, a higher power, or whatever. It's a faith based program. Period. I've been to enough damn meetings to say that.

Throughout the meeting the majority of the group talk about God. How they talk to him and he watches them and so on and so forth. I understand that this helps religouse people - but to those of us who just don't believe, it makes them look schizophrenic.

Many psychologists will even try to 'cure' people of religeon - regarding it as a delusion. If I had been sentanced to take an anatomy class to learn the effects of alcohol, or a psychology class to study the effects of toxins on the brain that would be completely fair. Oh, wait, I've already done rehab and am ordered to see a therapist - so I'm kinda there. ::)

Yes, drinking and driving is wrong. Yes, I need to be punished. In some countries people are shot for this offense, loose their liscense permanantly, their spouses are forced to serve jail time and whatever - but this is America. We're given certain rights, like freedom of religion, or the absense of it. That's the point of my thread.

Andygirl
05-27-2008, 09:10 AM
I'm sorry that the meetings that you attended were like that. They aren't all the same though. That's what some of us have been trying to get across to you.

Perry
05-27-2008, 09:23 AM
I beleive you. It just gets frustrating. It's like high school, where it's super clique-y. I'm not religeouse. I'm not an alcoholic. I don't want to be there and no one wants me there. I just can't fit in. :-\

I've even made an attempt at doing some of the steps. But I've never hurt anyone from drinking - no one wanted my apology for step 8. My life isn't unmanagable for step 1. Overwhelming and stressfull at times, yes, but I function.

I only drink at work. When I took a break from dancing I didn't drink once. It just isn't a big part of my life. I kinda wish it was sometimes so I'd have something to say at the meetings aside from doing kariokee or making out with my girl friends. :'(

Man, I even feel guilty because I need to be drunk for anal sex. Or that I've done a few beer bongs at frat parties - down the hall from my aparment, no driving involved. Does that mean I have a problem? Is it hurting anyone? It's not illegal. It's not right that I'm forced to listen to warped ideals - and be expected to agree with them. I can't cope with this much longer. Everything about the program is just wrong for me. I'd almost rather spend time in jail than go to one more meeting.

Andygirl
05-27-2008, 09:32 AM
How many meetings are you court ordered to do? Why can't you just sit through them? Like many have stated, you don't have to do anything but attend to get your court card signed. If the chair gives you shit about it, ask someone else.

Sirona
05-27-2008, 09:36 AM
AA opens with the serenity prayer, ends with the lord's prayer and the steps 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 and 11 directly involve God, a higher power, or whatever. It's a faith based program. Period. I've been to enough damn meetings to say that.



Perhaps it was the particular meetings you attended.
In addition, faith isn't religion.

Faith: confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.


I beleive you. It just gets frustrating. It's like high school, where it's super clique-y. I'm not religeouse. I'm not an alcoholic. I don't want to be there and no one wants me there. I just can't fit in.





I am genuinely sorry the meetings you hit were sucky.
I really believe it's like finding a good doctor. You have to shop around a bit.

Electrum
05-27-2008, 10:00 AM
I beleive you. It just gets frustrating. It's like high school, where it's super clique-y. I'm not religeouse. I'm not an alcoholic. I don't want to be there and no one wants me there. I just can't fit in. :-\

I've even made an attempt at doing some of the steps. But I've never hurt anyone from drinking - no one wanted my apology for step 8. My life isn't unmanagable for step 1. Overwhelming and stressfull at times, yes, but I function.

I only drink at work. When I took a break from dancing I didn't drink once. It just isn't a big part of my life. I kinda wish it was sometimes so I'd have something to say at the meetings aside from doing kariokee or making out with my girl friends. :'(

Man, I even feel guilty because I need to be drunk for anal sex. Or that I've done a few beer bongs at frat parties - down the hall from my aparment, no driving involved. Does that mean I have a problem? Is it hurting anyone? It's not illegal. It's not right that I'm forced to listen to warped ideals - and be expected to agree with them. I can't cope with this much longer. Everything about the program is just wrong for me. I'd almost rather spend time in jail than go to one more meeting.

I wouldn't jump up and say you have a problem just yet. There is a test AA gives to determine if you're an alcoholic. Of course it's AA standards, so I'm sure you could even dispute that, but it might help you. There are also a couple "tests" that the Big Book gives to see if you're an alcoholic. I'm not sure if I can remember them both, but one of them was to set a limit, like 2 or 3 drinks, and if you can stick to that limit you're most likely not an alcoholic. Apparently alcoholics just cannot stop. Although, there is such thing as "functioning" alcoholics. (You can find that test on AA's website I'm pretty sure. If not I'm sure I have it around here somewhere if you want me to post it or send it to you.)

Morgan_TX
05-27-2008, 10:13 AM
Incidentally, I saw this the other day and thought it was somewhat relevant:

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-03-20/news/it-took-less-than-one-drink-to-get-shannon-wilcutt-busted-for-felony-dui/

<snip>Shannon Wilcutt was eventually charged with three felony counts: a DUI above 0.08, a DUI with a child under 15 in the car, and drug possession.<snip>

<snip>Wilcutt's blood alcohol content was only 0.02, the equivalent of one drink. She wasn't even close to the legal limit.<snip>

threlayer
05-27-2008, 03:06 PM
Maybe it's a Bible Belt region where lots of people talk about that even in everyday affairs. It is the managers of the meeting that let this go on. Tell them you are Zoroastian and believe in nature and FIRE and it's against your faith to hear talk about theirs. Doubt it'll help, but it might make for an interesting evenings conversation.