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Jenny
05-27-2008, 08:55 PM
I think, well I hope, that what she means is that the job isn't right for particular someones. And, again, the answer is, "Of course it isn't." Except she goes on to say that some of those particular someones, seeing others doing it, figure how hard can it be and want to dive in themselves.

This is the scenario she finds herself in with her girl-friend.

She is asking, though perhaps choosing her words unwisely, for help in figuring out how to tell her she isn't one of the particular someones stripping is going to work out for.
Except what she says is that our lifestyles are not "justifiable" unless we are in it for a short term goal, that we are unjustifiably vain and that we only hold opinions of convenience rather than any of conviction; she then says that "it's just for her" but concludes by saying it's for all of us. You are assuming that she meant something quite different than what she said - fair enough. However what she actually said is what people here have been reading and responding to, not an ex post analysis you want to create for us. I mean, thanks and all, but we are actually capable of reading.

Golden_Rule
05-28-2008, 01:29 AM
:banghead: The OP has no place telling someone else that stripping "isn't going to work out" for her. How patronizing! The only person who can determine whether or not she's cut out for dancing is HER, experiencing it and deciding for herself.

I didn't comment regarding whether or not it was her place. I reframed the question she was asking in different words, that is all I did. I did it because the words she had chosen were getting in the way of her getting any legitimate answers because they were having a "hot button effect". So people weren't taking time to think about what she had asked, but responding to how it made them FEEL.

Golden_Rule
05-28-2008, 01:36 AM
Except what she says is that our lifestyles are not "justifiable" unless we are in it for a short term goal, that we are unjustifiably vain and that we only hold opinions of convenience rather than any of conviction; she then says that "it's just for her" but concludes by saying it's for all of us. You are assuming that she meant something quite different than what she said - fair enough. However what she actually said is what people here have been reading and responding to, not an ex post analysis you want to create for us. I mean, thanks and all, but we are actually capable of reading.

Ok, so she hit some hot buttons, which I removed when simplifying and rewording her request so as to remove the emotional responses to what may have been a very legitimately asked question. What's wrong with that?

And I wasn't suggesting people aren't capable of reading, and you have to know that because you aren't stupid. I did nothing more, or less, then what I said above.

You folks can read just fine. SOME of you respond with your hearts before your brains though. Emotions first, intellect second.

ScarletPhoenix
05-28-2008, 03:00 AM
I've seen some preeeeettttyyy screwed up dancers. It's totally true. I work with a girl who's 26 with a 12 year old son, an arm full of track marks, and a pimp. Ok. But here's how I feel about it. I'm not even going to try and join the fray . . .

Stripping is my craft. I'm never going to leave. It's my chosen career, until I get too old, and then I'm taking my saved money and opening a restaurant and/or a clothing boutique.

Before I started stripping, I had horrible, full blown bulimia and the most tragic body image of anyone I knew. I began stripping out of necessity, but soon found that it was the only therapy that ever worked. The way my mind works, I don't listen to what other people tell me about my body unless all the other variables are null (i.e. they don't care about me and just want to look at it). Stripping is a constant validation that I'm pretty enough to stop picking myself apart and crying in front of the mirror like I used to. I'm so much happier now.

My relationships with Significant Others are better, too. I have a better sense of who I am from having to be so assertive in the club. Dealing with so many men, both pleasant and unpleasant, has shown me what I'm actually looking for in a partner, and how to discern someone's character rather quickly without kidding myself.

I do fewer recreational substances now than I did when I was a college student at a top university. I decided not to return to school because I hated it so badly that the only way to make it through was booze, pills, and 2 packs a day of smokes. Now? I love what I do with my days. I'm EXCITED about life. I drink on the weekends, and that's about it.

I feel happy, validated, and I don't care what people think when I tell them that I'm a stripper. It's the best filter for friends and lovers that I could ever imagine. I wouldn't want to be with the ones that can't handle it.

Jenny
05-28-2008, 04:09 AM
Ok, so she hit some hot buttons, which I removed when simplifying and rewording her request so as to remove the emotional responses to what may have been a very legitimately asked question. What's wrong with that?
What is wrong with that is that is a) you are completely recharacterizing her post b) doing it to try to invalidate the exact words and ideas to which people were responding and c) as I said - we are perfectly capable of reading and don't need to you rephrase it or take out the big words. What you posted wasn't insightful - it merely changed the entire nature of her post to suit your own agenda.


And I wasn't suggesting people aren't capable of reading, and you have to know that because you aren't stupid. I did nothing more, or less, then what I said above.
What you did was imply that our reading comprehension was inferior to yours by giving us a translation; it wasn't a particularly valid or nuanced translation and you did it really for the purpose of invalidating responses that were perfectly valid under the original. But thanks for saying "we're not stupid". That rings very true, all things considered.


You folks can read just fine. SOME of you respond with your hearts before your brains though. Emotions first, intellect second.Thank you, big strong rational man, for coming here and telling us the best way to think. What with all our menstruation and hysteria it's a wonder that we got along in your absence. Dude, you exactly thought with your emotions here. You didn't read what she wrote and respond (although, you might consider what you really have to add to a topic about whether or not the stripper life style is "justifiable" from the stripper pov); you decided what you thought the responses should be and edited and reworded her original post in a way you thought would elicit them, completely disregarding the nuance and spirit (and words) of what she actually said, and dismissed the fairly vast different as "poor choice of words" (which - again; sweet of you to take time out of your busy day and come and tell the hysterical, menstruating women what words they should be using. Thanks.)

Mia M
05-28-2008, 09:12 AM
Thank you, big strong rational man, for coming here and telling us the best way to think. What with all our menstruation and hysteria it's a wonder that we got along in your absence.

Jenny, you're fucking awesome!

BTW, I didn't even bother to check GR's sex... hell, I didn't bother to read through much of his posts because it didn't seem like he knew what he was talking about. Now I undertand why, he's never strapped on a pair of 6" heels and gotten himself on stage.

Golden_Rule
05-28-2008, 09:25 PM
What is wrong with that is that is a) you are completely recharacterizing her post b) doing it to try to invalidate the exact words and ideas to which people were responding and c) as I said - we are perfectly capable of reading and don't need to you rephrase it or take out the big words. What you posted wasn't insightful - it merely changed the entire nature of her post to suit your own agenda.

I don't have a dog in this fight.

Your having an opinion about my attempting to take the emotional vector out of this dialog not being valid is one you certainly have a right to. Your attempting to attribute it to an agenda that doesn't exist is another thing all together.

The only "agenda" I had was that I thought I saw a legitimate question that was trying to be asked, but the wording was getting in the way. The easiest was to resolve that is to ask.

Shift_6x, is the way I rephrased what you wrote get to the heart of the matter you were trying to ask about, or am I totally off base?

Now, if she says yes, fine. If she says no then my take was a mistake, and thus invalid. Won't be the first time I was right, if I am right. Won't be the first time I was wrong if it turns out the other way either. Doesn't change the good will present in my making the attempt.


What you did was imply that our reading comprehension was inferior to yours by giving us a translation; it wasn't a particularly valid or nuanced translation and you did it really for the purpose of invalidating responses that were perfectly valid under the original. But thanks for saying "we're not stupid". That rings very true, all things considered.

Nope. No such thing. I did it for precisely the reasons I stated, and nothing more.


Thank you, big strong rational man, for coming here and telling us the best way to think.

I see PEOPLE get in the way of what they want by getting their feelings tied up in it all the time. It isn't a female thing. It isn't a male thing. It's a people thing.

You do it yourself. The chip on your shoulder is so evident sometimes it blocks out anything else you are trying to get across.

You don't like people as smart as you are. You don't like being challanged. You truly don't like anyone who comes across as an authority figure. Especially in your backyard.

It is what it is. So be it. {I wish they had a shrugging shoulders emoticon}

scarlett_vancouver
05-28-2008, 10:13 PM
{I wish they had a shrugging shoulders emoticon}

colon shrug colon :shrug:

Jenny, why do you hate men so much? Is it because you're on the rag?

Jenny
05-28-2008, 11:49 PM
You don't like people as smart as you are. You don't like being challanged. You truly don't like anyone who comes across as an authority figure. Especially in your backyard. I'm sorry - are we talking about you here?

And did you just say that everyone here that I like isn't as smart as I am? Because I don't think that's cool. I mean, I don't think it's true, but I also think it is a pretty obnoxious thing to say. What on earth would possess you to say something like that?

Jenny
05-28-2008, 11:51 PM
colon shrug colon :shrug:

Jenny, why do you hate men so much? Is it because you're on the rag?Yes! I've been on the rag since I discovered feminism. If I could only stop bleeding then someone would marry me and help me make attractive, red-headed babies and I could stop thinking so damn much. It strains the uterus Scarlett!

Nobody understands me.

Djoser
05-29-2008, 01:52 AM
Golden Rule, I see where you are coming from, but give it up. Though this is in the Lounge, it's about stripping. Something you have never done. Something I myself have never done, in fact.

I can have a somewhat better perspective maybe, having seen and having had to deal with the results of the nastier aspects of the business. But I haven't put on the heels, gone on stage, gotten naked, gone into VIP, and had a guy suddenly jam his finger up my ass.

This happened to one of my favorite dancers about two weeks ago. All I had to deal with is the fact one of my favorite dancers left, and knowing she was upset and hurt.

She, on the other hand, had to deal with an utterly repulsive man suddenly jamming his finger up her ass with no warning. You and I can only imagine what this is really like to deal with. I imagine I would have killed him, or at the least put him in the hospital for several weeks. She couldn't do that.

I too thought that the OP wasn't being as judgmental as some of the other readers did, but I went back and re-read it, and Jenny has a point, in that the OP in that one sentence implied that dancing wasn't "justifiable". I too think she might not have meant it that way, but you have to allow these women to disagree with that sentence as written. Not only because their career is easily 'justifiable' as far as they are concerned, but because there is absolutely no reason for them to have to justify it to anyone else but themselves.

Maybe the way we read the OP is correct, but it's up to the OP to clarify, not you or I. Let's hope she does, as I liked what I interpreted her attitude was, if I interpreted it correctly.

In conclusion, I will quote one of the most cogent summations of the negative and positive aspects of the industry, written by a woman who has put on the heels. I think the OP should show it to her friend, if she is trying to warn her about what it is really like. Not all women are cut out to dance, and she might be doing her friend a favor. But ultimately, it is up to her friend to decide for herself.


I think its because I spent the last three years telling everyone how normal strippers and stripping were, before finally saying to myself 'no actually it's not'. Our job is not normal. People who do this job are not normal, and by this I mean an insult - fucked up, coked up bitches - and a compliment - fantastic, hilarious, big hearted extroverts with bodies and personalities to die for, larger than life, too large for their clothes and a regular 9-5 job. But we also have to recognize that pretending we're all Pollyanna's ain't cutting it. We're not. To have done this job we've seen shit and I'll bet a lot of you have seen some Queens of Skank operating and some terrible things - I have. Doesn't mean I'm like that. Anyway, point is I find it really annoying when people try and pick an argument about stuff which is just, well true! As if by denying the weirdness of this job and pretending it doesn't exist, all the negative shit, and staunchly proclaiming we're all sweethearts, it'll make it true.... I got the impression after only 2 years dancing that there's so much bitchiness between the women while the men get off scot-free. It's not a very feminist industry is it, all the male managers treating us like shit and all the girls biting each other's heads off and all the fat assholes who I wouldn't let lick my shoe turning us down... yet it could be, I think. There's enough amazing women in real life and on here to make a difference, but denying things doesn't help, and getting snippy doesn't help. oh dear, rant over. Back to writing after a boring 9-5 job which makes me think I've lost any sparkle or delightful insanity I ever had....

shift_6x
05-29-2008, 09:49 AM
I Regret Starting This Post. I Did Not Want It To Turn Into A Full Blown War. Thank You To Those Of You Who Have Shared How Dancing Has Helped You To Be A Happier Person. That Is Very Positive, And I Enjoyed Hearing About Ur Experience Scarletphoniex (sorry If I Misspelled). Thank You All For Your Time.

Golden_Rule
05-30-2008, 04:43 AM
BTW, I didn't even bother to check GR's sex... hell, I didn't bother to read through much of his posts because it didn't seem like he knew what he was talking about. Now I undertand why, he's never strapped on a pair of 6" heels and gotten himself on stage.


Well, there was that one time in the "Triple Treat Theatre" in the Show World in Manhattan.

You probably weren't even born yet though.

:D

Golden_Rule
05-30-2008, 04:48 AM
I can have a somewhat better perspective maybe, having seen and having had to deal with the results of the nastier aspects of the business.

Ok, point taken, but as an aside please note that I spent a few years on the floor of more than a handful of clubs, many being strip-clubs, as a bouncer in my college days, and now days I dabble as a floor/security manager for a recurring private party/lap dance establishment. So I've seen it from the inside as well.

Golden_Rule
05-30-2008, 04:54 AM
colon shrug colon :shrug:

Thanks. That should come in handy. :)


Jenny, why do you hate men so much? Is it because you're on the rag?

She doesn't hate men. Just sort of thinks their a bit daft and lame.

It is only for those who insist on challenging her intellect that she reserves her true loathing.

}:D

Oh come on... admit it. You smiled. Even if it was only for a millisecond.

Golden_Rule
05-30-2008, 04:56 AM
I'm sorry - are we talking about you here?

We, well I, was talking about you talking about me here.


And did you just say that everyone here that I like isn't as smart as I am? Because I don't think that's cool. I mean, I don't think it's true, but I also think it is a pretty obnoxious thing to say. What on earth would possess you to say something like that?

Whoa! Where did you get that? Never said that at all.

Golden_Rule
05-30-2008, 04:59 AM
Yes! I've been on the rag since I discovered feminism. If I could only stop bleeding then someone would marry me and help me make attractive, red-headed babies and I could stop thinking so damn much. It strains the uterus Scarlett!

Nobody understands me.


You are a very clever woman.

You are also bright, which isn't the same thing as clever, but you knew that.

If only you'd use your powers for good, right and the American Way!

}:D

Jenny
05-30-2008, 06:11 AM
We, well I, was talking about you talking about me here.
You and I might have different ideas on what (and who) is intelligent, challenging and in authority; so I find your analysis here kind of deficient on its face.


Whoa! Where did you get that? Never said that at all.
You don't like people as smart as you are.
If I don't like people as smart as I am, what does that mean for the people I do like? I would submit that generally the people I like are smarter than I am, certainly at least as smart, and they generally have the good judgment not to go around providing everyone with a self-assessment of their insight and intelligence.

Djoser
05-30-2008, 06:38 AM
G_R, I give up. I will leave you in the capable hands of Jenny. Enjoy yourself...

Optimist
05-30-2008, 06:56 AM
But the lifestyle...well I feel some of us are tricking ourselves into thinking it is "healthy" or "justifiable". After many years and alot of bs...I dont think for me-and only me here- that it is justifiable anymore...I find my "dancer" self to be at times a little over-the-top. I feel at ease with my body...I know its faults and good points...BUt society doesnt accept that...And for so long I have been like "Fuck Society!" But you know what? It is only because I knew society didnt- and would never accept my profession. I suppose I am just more in touch with reality where as being a dancer you can get caught up to much in yourself and your own world....For example: There was a term called "go-go head" here where I live. It is basically what happens when a dancer thinks she is the hottest thing on theplanet and is better than everyone else and starts treating them accordingly. It is a falacy. I believe I used to have go-go head truthfully because of the money I made and I was one of the top tier dancers in my area. I guess its not that I cant still be top-tier because I still have it in me..but I just dont like the destructiveness of the job..The competition, ahhh idk...It is just so shallow....I think we are all special and dancing doesn't bring it out in ways that make us appreciated for who we really are and that doesnt sit well with me anymore.
I can't speak to the section on justifying our choice of job because I have not had "go-go head", however I wholeheartedly agree that some of us are kidding ourselves. Many girls can't work unless they are drinking and/or drugging. That's not OK. Many girls can't maintain their physical and emotional boundaries and end up miserable, molested, angry, or (again) loaded by the end of the night. Perhaps for those girls the OP has started a dialogue that will be helpful.