PDA

View Full Version : What do you really think of the US Government?



pookie
06-04-2008, 06:11 AM
How many people here, US citizens and non US citizen feel the US government is based on lies? and how many people here think its not? What do you feel about the Governments control on the media? I think it violate freedom of speech. I think the president has too many powers.

What thoughts and opinions do you ppl have? (good and bad)

What are you thought on current affairs and past affairs? Psst officials and current officials? Who do you like and hate? Who do you think is honest and who is dishonest?

Mr Hyde
06-04-2008, 07:59 AM
I think the US Govt is too large and spends too much money on frivolous crap. And that government in general is not the solution to society's problems as much people think it is.

All Good Things
06-04-2008, 09:03 AM
The U.S. federal government doesn't "control" the media. In fact, ask most high-ranking government officials and they will tell you that they feel under full frontal attack by members of the media attempting to score a story or a coup by extracting controversial information from them. It's an adversarial relationship. It's only been this way in the post-Watergate era. Prior to that, the media was spoon fed information by the government and pretty much acted like lap dogs.

It's probably more accurate to say the federal government releases only that information it is required to, and generally classifies (unnecessarily) everything else.

Does the government lie to you? Of course. Every politician, agency and authority makes a determination of what can be released to the public and in what form. The "spin" put on the release of information is a form of subtle deception and manipulation; the information they seek to withhold from you is a lie of omission if they claim the information doesn't exist or they do not have it.

There is, of course, national security information that must be withheld from the public to prevent disclosure to those who would do us harm. That is a valid reason for the government to withhold information.

Then there is outright direct manipulation and deception, such as the entire effort by the current administration to justify the war in Iraq. It's such a blatant lie on so many levels -- I mean the lie actually changes over time, which de facto proves that the previous explanation was a lie -- that it would be funny if not completely tragic. This level of deception is justified by what is perceived to be the "higher good," something public officials are entrusted to determine, but often misjudge or interpret in entirely self-serving and horrifically tragic ways.

i.breathe.in
06-04-2008, 09:16 AM
it needs a complete and total overhaul.

LuckyOne
06-04-2008, 09:58 AM
I think our government is the cause of high oil prices. I really do. Actually, the presidential family.

doc-catfish
06-04-2008, 10:09 AM
They're a bunch of bought off whores who pass too many laws and create too many taxes, and make a habit of exempting themselves from the very rules they make the rest of us suffer under.

Same goes with any state or local government as well. I truly think we need to make it easier for people in every city and state to secede their land from their current one if they feel oppressed by it. Politicians might think twice about just cowtowing to the majority if a significant minority had the power to uproot their tax dollars and do it without even moving.

LuckyOne
06-04-2008, 10:37 AM
^^^ Come on, that's not fair. I don't know any whores as dishonest as the people in office...

Yekhefah
06-04-2008, 10:38 AM
The problem isn't the government, it's the corporate oligarchy that owns the government, the media, and everything else. Everything wrong with our society goes back to that corporate ownership. The government just works for the corporate oligarchy.

virgoamm
06-04-2008, 10:45 AM
The problem isn't the government, it's the corporate oligarchy that owns the government, the media, and everything else.

Yep. But the government's hands are just as dirty for taking their money.

Santos
06-04-2008, 11:14 AM
The problem isn't the government, it's the corporate oligarchy that owns the government, the media, and everything else. Everything wrong with our society goes back to that corporate ownership. The government just works for the corporate oligarchy.

My views are similar to Yekhefah's. Essentially, our government is a Corporate/State oligarchy. Corporations have undue influence over our government and its policies. And corporate interests are usually not in line with the interests of the average American citizen.

In addition, corporations own and run the main stream media. They control and filter what is presented for public consumption. See Noam Chomsky's book Manufacturing Consent for a detailed and well sourced treatise on how this works.

Fortunately, there are other sources for news, and the truth on any issue can be found if one reads, listens to and watches enough sources. But it takes a lot of time and effort--and that's something the average American citizen can't or won't do.

Does our government lie? It's not so much outright lying; rather it's obfuscation and spin of the real truth. The Iraq war is only one example. Again, see Noam Chomsky's book for details on how this works.

AlexxaHex
06-04-2008, 11:20 AM
I agree corporations are given too much power. That's the issue with capitalism. It can get out of hand because everyone can be bought, including "elected" or selected officials. I think people are too complacent in letting the government get away with this shit. They need to get angry and empower themselves. There are many ways we can do this but unfortunately, this rampant materialism has left so many of us feeling weak and incapable.
We have a lot of crooked motherfuckers in power right now. I wish we could resurrect JFK from the dead.

SexyJess
06-04-2008, 11:31 AM
I agree with everything The Other Owner said.

And WTF.... some companies may be biased, but overall the media is NOT liberal.

I think our country was founded on some pretty great principles, and then greed and corruption took over about 5 minutes later.

DJ Machismo
06-04-2008, 11:40 AM
I'm with Doc and Yek on this one.

Our government in theory is a good founded government. However there are so many corrupt people within the government that it is becoming impossible to distinguish the corrupt from the simply misguided.

I watched Charlie Wilson's War the other day and it really made me rethink some of my opinions on some of our congressmen and representatives. Just not that many of them.

Until we can get mostly honest people in the Senate and House of Representatives and everything else that are looking out for America and Americans instead of simply "looking out for number 1", then we might see a change.

Mare
06-04-2008, 01:12 PM
I can't talk about my pimp or I might get slapped.
But if I did I'd say it's pretty fucked up and if the price of things keep going up I smell dissention and revolt. People are going to be angry and start fighting each other until they realize they need to direct it at the pimp.
I really liked it better when I didn't know ANYTHING.

Melonie
06-04-2008, 05:02 PM
Until we can get mostly honest people in the Senate and House of Representatives and everything else that are looking out for America and Americans instead of simply "looking out for number 1", then we might see a change.

Unfortunately, the days of Abe Lincoln are over. Winning elections takes millions and millions of dollars ... thus the vast majority of politicians of both parties now come from the ranks of the uber-rich. And those few that don't want to BE uber-rich. Since the institution of an income tax in 1913, and the institution of 'entitlement programs' during the depression, the US gov't is by far the biggest 'business' in the country in terms of dollar spending / payroll etc. It's simply impossible to be around / in control of that much money and totally avoid temptation.


watched Charlie Wilson's War the other day and it really made me rethink some of my opinions on some of our congressmen and representatives. Just not that many of them.

and a quote from the film sums up the essential difference between Charlie Wilson and 99.9% of other US politicians ... " I come from a district in Texas where the voters don't WANT anything - that means I get to vote yes a lot"

xdamage
06-04-2008, 05:36 PM
I think the US Government is filled with people, people just like you and I, and frankly we people suck. For example....

We want our jobs to be secure, even if it is a waste of tax payers dollars. Let the cuts come out of someone else's department.

People don't call CYA (Covering Your Ass) lying. They call it, being on the inside and dong what you have to do.

People are lame at being masterminds and don't need to be to royally fuck things up. All you really need to do is give them power, and assuredly it will corrupt them.

But part of the blaim goes to the American people. In fact like 99% of it. Because we are also people and we just don't get it. For example, we blaim or give credit to the entire economy to one person (yep, many people still credit Clinton with the Internet spending craze Tulip Bulb insanity era). We people are stupid for doing that. And by the same token, we stupid people think one guy is going to right all wrongs, and so we actually vote for someone who appeals to that inside of us. Whoever waves the best magic wand, whoever promises the most BS, we vote for. And then when they fail, we will blaim that on the one person too.

See we would rather spin conspiracies in our head cause that is fun and exciting, and a lot less boring then the dealing with the cold hard truth... economics, world politics, health care, the environment, none of these are simple, all are complex systems where any one change has side effects, and solutions will take a lot of time, slow gradual changes. Nope, that is all no fun and gives us headaches, so we go on believing in magic wands, "simple" answers, and we vote for whichever politician feeds into that best.

Yep, we have only ourselves to blaim. We, us, people.... people just as dumb as us are in the US Government positions.

jester214
06-04-2008, 07:20 PM
Money is the problem. Our Government is gigantic, they have a hand in ALMOST every aspect of our lives. Politicians, no matter what they are before they get elected, need money to get and (more importantly) stay elected. When that is the system it means that the companies that dole out the money, although it's not really individual companies (IMO) as it is Industry's, it means that those people are going to be protected first.

The government doesn't control the media, as much as people would like to beleive that, it's simply not true. If they have any "control" it is still a hell of a lot less than other governments, even in mainstream countries like France and Brittain.

Still X said it correctly above, if anyone's to blame it's the American people. Get off your ass, go research some candidates and make a fucking decision other than "Republican" or "Democrat". Hell, people don't even care half the time what the candidates policies are, they vote about them as people. Or they vote for them because their spouse was a popular president. This is the reason we have such a hugely divided two party system which allows for industry's to donate billions and for the government to kowtow to them.

MsQwerty
06-04-2008, 08:45 PM
I wish we non-Americans didnt have to hear about it and American affairs so much.

Yekhefah
06-04-2008, 08:59 PM
Like it or not, our economy and its impending collapse will have a massive effect on yours.

Melonie
06-04-2008, 10:47 PM
I think the US Government is filled with people, people just like you and I, and frankly we people suck. For example....

We want our jobs to be secure, even if it is a waste of tax payers dollars. Let the cuts come out of someone else's department

For once Xanfiles and I are in complete agreement, as long as I'm making a correct assumption as to what he's referring to - which appears to be the fact that a large percentage of Americans are receiving a 'check' from the gov't in one form or another, and tend to vote in a manner which will (apparently) provide the greatest probability of that gov't 'check' continuing to arrive next month (if not growing larger !).

Stop and add up the percentages of people who are receiving gov't 'checks' in one form or another ...

- by many news reports somewhere between 8% and 10% of Americans are now receiving food stamps and other social welfare benefits

- in many states a full 20% of state residents directly receive a paycheck from the federal or state or local gov't, or from a contractor who is being paid by the federal or state or local gov't

- another 15% of residents receive a retirement check from the federal or state or local gov't, and/or a Social Security 'check' ( plus Medicare coverage)

- yet another 5% of residents receive a check or benefit from some branch of the US military or national guard

if you add these percentages together you'll find they total 50% in some states. As economic conditions worsen, that percentage will easily rise above 50%. And at that point, there are more registered voters who are dependent on continued big government spending than there are private sector workers whose taxes must be raised to pay for that big government spending !!!

(snip)"The problem of the tyranny of the majority, as phrased by Cicero 2,000 years ago, before we had Maclean's to enlighten us, is that "Democracy is an evanescent form of government which lasts only until its constituents discover that their vote is the key to the treasury.'' Which you'll notice is not a mistake. Not then, and not today.

In principle the purpose of the "welfare state,'' that is, a government whose principal activity is providing material benefits from welfare to pensions, education and health care, is to relieve want. However it is a fact, and not a coincidence, that most of what our governments spend goes not to the indigent but to the middle classes who are articulate, politically active and well-informed about costs and benefits (a recent Ipsos-Reid poll, for instance, reveals that Canadians with family income under $30,000 overestimate the cost and underestimate the benefit of a university education far more than the wealthier people whose children are more likely to receive one). You will notice that governments may cut welfare, but never the sacred middle-class "entitlements:'' health, education and pensions.

You will also notice that for decades people have been extracting benefits from all three at an unsustainable pace. But again the problem is not ignorance. It's an accurate understanding that they can load up on benefits and leave behind an IOU they know they will not be around to pay. And even as yesterday's extravagance becomes today's unfunded liability, it remains rational for "political hedonists'' interested only in maximizing their own material well-being to continue to try to squeeze more out for themselves than is affordable over the long run. (Mind you, it also becomes increasingly rational for governments to try to restrict our ability to discuss among ourselves how best to extract benefits from the state, for instance through election gag laws."(snip)

from Canadian pundit John Robson who has the benefit of perspective that the percentage of Canadians receiving a gov't 'check' has recently been several percentage points higher than Americans.

Melonie
06-04-2008, 10:58 PM
I wish we non-Americans didnt have to hear about it and American affairs so much

Well, Aus has its own issues to deal with ...

DB Cooper
06-05-2008, 06:17 AM
The people are the govt. And once the people realize that they can vote themselves bread and circuses we're on the slippery slope.

pookie
06-05-2008, 06:50 AM
Money is the problem.

Absolutely.

I think the first step to fixing the economy is to shut down the federal reserve and make the government start issuing money again. did you know that the money printed by the federal reserve is backed by gold?
Also if we stop paying income taxes is also stops empowering the IRS to tax income which is illegal. When the 16th amendment was ratified is was ratified illegally.

These two things alone would make a positive impact for Americans controlling the government and not the government controlling Americans

LadyLuck
06-05-2008, 09:12 AM
I had several paragraphs written out in reply to this topic but as I began reading I think TOO wrote out a good but of what I had planned to post. So in effort to save ban width I'll just repost the part that was closest to my opinion.

From TOO's post above:


"Then there is outright direct manipulation and deception, such as the entire effort by the current administration to justify the war in Iraq. It's such a blatant lie on so many levels -- I mean the lie actually changes over time, which de facto proves that the previous explanation was a lie -- that it would be funny if not completely tragic. This level of deception is justified by what is perceived to be the "higher good," something public officials are entrusted to determine, but often misjudge or interpret in entirely self-serving and horrifically tragic ways.

Melonie
06-05-2008, 09:54 AM
I think the first step to fixing the economy is to shut down the federal reserve and make the government start issuing money again. did you know that the money printed by the federal reserve is backed by gold?

I assume you are WISHING that the US dollar would return to a gold / silver standard, as arguably required by the US constitution. Since 1972, when Richard Nixon unilaterally cancelled the last remaining linkage between precious metals and US dollar notes to avoid a foreign exchange hemmorage, the 'value' of the US dollar Federal Reserve Notes has only been backed by the future ability of the US gov't to tax working Americans heavily enough to pay off US gov't bonds / bills / notes issued.

xdamage
06-05-2008, 03:37 PM
For once Xanfiles and I are in complete agreement, as long as I'm making a correct assumption as to what he's referring to - which appears to be the fact that a large percentage of Americans are receiving a 'check' from the gov't in one form or another, and tend to vote in a manner which will (apparently) provide the greatest probability of that gov't 'check' continuing to arrive next month (if not growing larger !).

Basically that is the reality. Few people really mean drop government benefits that benefit them. 99% of the time they mean make cuts in some way that doesn't directly impact on themselves (whether it is a paycheck, a welfare check, health care benefits, police protection, etc.).

I do know people that have confused themselves into thinking they are the exceptions. Examples are young people who argue they shouldn't have to pay into SS or Health Care programs, but really, they just mean "because I am young and not benefiting NOW". Their tune will surely change later in life, or if they become unexpectedly ill, they will demand the society provide them health care, even if they never paid in.

The problems in this country are endemic to it's people. Until American's get out of the "me good", "them bad", victim think, and start realizing how their own choices impact the society (no matter how small), there really is no hope for this country to improve. The people as a whole are contributors to this countries decline. On the positive side they could also improve it too.

Stiletto135
06-05-2008, 04:12 PM
Power corrupts. The corrupt are in power. I know there are some good souls in there, but for the most part it's a vehicle for the rich to protect their interests. Nothing wrong with rich people per se, except that GENERALLY speaking, they get and stay rich by fucking over everyone else.

I have an extreme view, yeah, but I've seen a lot of things, and the more I learn, the more I'm sure I'm right.

Paris
06-05-2008, 04:36 PM
The problem isn't the government, it's the corporate oligarchy that owns the government, the media, and everything else. Everything wrong with our society goes back to that corporate ownership. The government just works for the corporate oligarchy.

Did you see? It was announced today that the democratic party will NOT accept any money from lobbying organizations or Political Action Committees. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080605/ap_on_el_pr/democrats_money;_ylt=ArYcs0vc8aImNlHw3q3w9ziyFz4D) ;D

Power to the People (and the people want peace)!

I donated today to the DNC because of this news. I recommend that everyone who believes that the electorate should choose our laws and run our nation (and not multinational conglomerates) should do the same.

Yekhefah
06-05-2008, 04:41 PM
I'll believe that when I see it. Democrat politicians are whores just like the Republicans.

pookie
06-05-2008, 04:46 PM
^^^^^^^^ yes, one party you are a big fat liar, and the other one you are a lying ass

Paris
06-05-2008, 05:06 PM
I'll believe that when I see it. Democrat politicians are whores just like the Republicans.

Send them a small donation and attach a small note of thanks for not taking lobby or PAC money.

Kind of like when the guy in the club "says" your the prettiest girl there and then hands you a $20, you know he isn't just talking shit.

There are a gazillion of us citizens and only a few thousand lobbyists. Even if each lobbyist offers $100k to the campaign (and not all of them will, probably only a handful... say a dozen, will do this) we will still win if each citizen only offers $5.00. Many citizens will donate the maximum. We can beat them by sheer numbers alone.

Obama ran his entire primary campaign this way. He totally kicked ass on fund raising compared to the more traditional candidates. ;)

Melonie
06-05-2008, 05:21 PM
yeah well, thanks to a virtual news blackout, Obama's previous campaign finance adventures in regard to Tony Rezko seem to have slipped off everyone's radar. The fact remains that Obama would not be a candidate today had he not been financed to the hilt (arguably both personally and politically) in the past by Tony Rezko and his multi-million dollar acquaintances.







of course, personal fundraisers such as Rezko and other non-corporate contributors i.e. environmentalist groups, unions, 527's a la billionaire George Soros etc. are exempt from the Democrat 'lobbyist money' announcement !!! Thus if you think that today's 'lobbyist money' announcement in any way indictates that Democratic candidates won't be accepting large amounts of money and support from special interest groups, you're deluding yourself. The only distinction will be that those special interest groups favoring the Democratic party won't be officially classified as 'corporate' lobbyists, which the Democrats can then use as a red herring presidential campaign issue.

Mr Hyde
06-05-2008, 07:33 PM
I think the US Government is filled with people, people just like you and I, and frankly we people suck. For example....

We want our jobs to be secure, even if it is a waste of tax payers dollars. Let the cuts come out of someone else's department.

People don't call CYA (Covering Your Ass) lying. They call it, being on the inside and dong what you have to do.

People are lame at being masterminds and don't need to be to royally fuck things up. All you really need to do is give them power, and assuredly it will corrupt them.

But part of the blaim goes to the American people. In fact like 99% of it. Because we are also people and we just don't get it. For example, we blaim or give credit to the entire economy to one person (yep, many people still credit Clinton with the Internet spending craze Tulip Bulb insanity era). We people are stupid for doing that. And by the same token, we stupid people think one guy is going to right all wrongs, and so we actually vote for someone who appeals to that inside of us. Whoever waves the best magic wand, whoever promises the most BS, we vote for. And then when they fail, we will blaim that on the one person too.

See we would rather spin conspiracies in our head cause that is fun and exciting, and a lot less boring then the dealing with the cold hard truth... economics, world politics, health care, the environment, none of these are simple, all are complex systems where any one change has side effects, and solutions will take a lot of time, slow gradual changes. Nope, that is all no fun and gives us headaches, so we go on believing in magic wands, "simple" answers, and we vote for whichever politician feeds into that best.

Yep, we have only ourselves to blaim. We, us, people.... people just as dumb as us are in the US Government positions.

The cold hard honest truth. You fucking nailed it. If you don't mind, I'll add some proof to your claim...

Citizens rail against higher taxes while at the same time crying out for the govt to pay for things like health care, schools, roads, etc. It's almost like people don't/can't associate the taxes they pay with the things taxes pay for...people thing the govt is this big bottomless bucket of money and anything we want...poof! The Govt Fairy can pay for.

We vote in whoever promises to be the biggest Govt Fairy...it never fails...and why does all this prove xdamages' points? Because it shows our utter irrationality. We want something for nothing, and we see the government as the source for that. There's no huge conspiracy going on...corporations owning the govt? Not as much as you think. The govt causes the price of oil to rise on purpose? Poppycock. The real truth is, everyone looks out for themselves, and the overall intelligence of people is not high, so this leads to mass bad decisions...and then everyone has to live with the consequences.

missjzone
06-06-2008, 07:01 AM
how many of you know that the FEDERAL RESERVE is privately owned?

yes, thats right the Federal reserve System which has controls all our money supply and has the power of congress to lay tax on the people is a privately held corporation:O

there in lies our problem. to quote.

Thomas Jefferson, declared, "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

missjzone
06-06-2008, 07:01 AM
how many of us know that the FEDERAL RESERVE is privately owned?

yes, thats right the Federal reserve System which controls all our money supply and has the power of congress to lay tax on the people is a privately held corporation:O

there in lies our problem. to quote.

Thomas Jefferson, declared, "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

pookie
06-06-2008, 07:22 AM
^^^^^^ yes, i know, if the federal reserve remains active the government basically creates its own debt. The government has the power to print money but it chooses not to. Instead it lets the federal reserve print money. They are the reason for the inflation

http://www.freedomtofacism.com/

this web site explains a lot

pookie
06-06-2008, 07:29 AM
Whats even more disturbing is this

www.inlieswetrust.com

jester214
06-06-2008, 07:17 PM
Did you see? It was announced today that the democratic party will NOT accept any money from lobbying organizations or Political Action Committees. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080605/ap_on_el_pr/democrats_money;_ylt=ArYcs0vc8aImNlHw3q3w9ziyFz4D) ;D

Power to the People (and the people want peace)!

I donated today to the DNC because of this news. I recommend that everyone who believes that the electorate should choose our laws and run our nation (and not multinational conglomerates) should do the same.

This looks so good on paper but it means nothing. The DNC was broke, and they knew they couldn't compete with Repubs no matter what they did. This carries no weight, it's just a statement to try and make themselves look good. If it actually carried some weight, I'd probably give them some money too.

I will say one thing, it worked for them. It's getting people to donate, when no one (people, or lobbyists) were giving them anything before.

It's almost like me saying I'm not going to take anymore charity, but since I didn't get any charity in the first place it really doesn't mean much.