View Full Version : Proof of torture at Gitmo
jester214
06-21-2008, 12:04 AM
It's equally easy to sit on a message board (or anywhere) and paean things as "good".
Where should one be located, in your opinion, in order to have the best possible opinion?
The typical comment I expected someone would make, if you really can't get my point, then you theres no reason for me to go any further.
Jenny
06-21-2008, 07:23 AM
The typical comment I expected someone would make, if you really can't get my point, then you theres no reason for me to go any further.
I thought your point was that it is easy to sit on a message board and have opinions on things. I mean, that is what you said and all. It just seems... you know, kind of silly to be having espousing your opinions on a message board when you are dismissing other opinions because they are on a message board.
Or is that what you mean when you say that "theres no reason for you to go any further"?
bem401
06-21-2008, 09:06 AM
The Qur'An is relatively respectful to women, and pretty similar to the Bible overall.
Relatively respectful? Relative to what? I have to confess to not knowing much about the Koran, but that's hardly a ringing endorsement. I azm not attacking the Koran BTW, but rather those who would distort it to justify their actions, much like what has happened throughout the ages regarding the Bible. The problem now is that I (and other Americans) are the potential victims, and that is unacceptable.
Oh, and to those who of you who play the race card the minute you don't like what you hear, I am speaking about the defense of all Americans, not just whites. I am speaking about the defense of whites, blacks, spanish, asians, straights, gays, christians, jews, and muslims( placed last for effect only). And yes, i value any of those lives over the lives of those who would do us harm.
LadyLuck
06-21-2008, 12:41 PM
a I am speaking about the defense of all Americans</p>
Problem is what you advocate has the opposite effect. Even the experts at SERE explain that torture does not produce good Intel. </p>
Not to mention that AFTER many of these detainees have been tortured they are then declared innocent.
Even if torture worked, WTF is acceptable about torturing people only to find out that they are innocent?
Bem401, did you watch the CSPAN videos of the recent hearings regarding torture?
If so, did you not notice that over and over it was explained that torture does not provide Intel.
Did you not notice that people through out all branches of the military objected to it because not only because they knew it didn't work but that it violated all applicable laws
Also are you aware of why McCain was tortured? The purpose was to try and get him to make A FALSE confession to be used as propaganda.
Does it not make you wonder why Bush and his associates pushed for and ordered that acts defined by Geneva as torture to be done to detainees? Have you not considered it was to illicit FALSE confessions for the purpose of propaganda?
Why else would they do it if not to try and get FALSE confessions? It's well documented that it makes us less safe not more safe from enemy attacks. So that can't be why.
Is it because they get off on the idea? Maybe but they don't really do things unless they think they can get something they want out of the deal. So why then?
And what are they most lacking in regards to their warmongering? PUBLIC SUPPORT. And what better way to get public support than to come to the voters and try and say "see we were right, just look at this confession"
So what is an administration that has been busted for created fake Intel (WMD's), engaging in a war that most of it's population is against, ect to do when there IS NO EVIDENCE to support their claims?
They have two options, admit they were lying or were wrong or create fake evidence.
And what is the one thing torture does most often accomplish? It' gets people to say WHATEVER their captors WANT then to say.
If you really want to help protect your nation (and I believe you do) then STOP supporting Bush's war and start speaking and voting against it.
TheSexKitten
06-21-2008, 01:28 PM
Relatively respectful? Relative to what? I have to confess to not knowing much about the Koran, but that's hardly a ringing endorsement. I azm not attacking the Koran BTW, but rather those who would distort it to justify their actions, much like what has happened throughout the ages regarding the Bible. The problem now is that I (and other Americans) are the potential victims, and that is unacceptable.
Relative to traditional judeo-christian-islamic cultural standards. Iraq/Iran/Afghanistan used to be a liberal learning mecca, but as a select, corrupt few managed to gain power they've gone more to shit. I agree with you on what you've said in this post, but I simply get frustrated that so many people love to lump "Muslims" all in one huge category and refuse to educate themselves on the foundations of the religion and the different ways is has been practiced throughout history and in different places all over the globe.
It feels like Jews aren't the whipping boy anymore, at least in Western civilizations. Until people actually take the time to educate themselves, they can be fed any one-sided bullshit that someone wants to shove in their face.
bem401
06-21-2008, 01:30 PM
How could we be "more safe" than zero attacks?
I didn't see the C-SPAN stuff.
You realize that the people brought to Gitmo would have been killed on the battlefield if Gitmo were not an option? I know you're going to say we shouldn't be there, Bush lied, etc etc etc, but that's not a suitable response at this stage.
The intel to get in the war wasn't faked. It was flawed. The population was nearly 100% behind the war initially. The leftists knew they had to keep hitting Bush on the war and they did it again. I have friends who've served over there who've said real progress is being made and that the press is misrepresenting things grossly. One was upset he wasn't allowed to go back for a third tour.
War is never pretty, but you have to be willing to do what it takes to win. I don't believe we are torturing to induce negatives for the country.
i.breathe.in
06-21-2008, 02:06 PM
War is never pretty, but you have to be willing to do what it takes to win. I don't believe we are torturing to induce negatives for the country.
like drop a bombs and kill thousands of innocent people? war rarely makes anything better. it makes things worse.
LadyLuck
06-21-2008, 03:24 PM
In reply to Bem401,
What do you mean no attacks? Our allies/interests have been attacked. Have you forgot about London and Madrid? Those attacks happened becuase of their connection to the US attacking iraq. Not to mention that there are more people in terrorist groups than before we went into Iraq. There are even new groups that did not exist before we went into Iraq.
Add to that there are more people than ever the world who now view the US in a extremely poor light than EVER before. How can you say we are safer when we have continued attacks, more terrorists and more ill will towards America.
Yes the whole WMD thing was fake not flawed. Are you not aware of the Downing Street Memo that proves it? If not, here some info for you:
I am anti war, period but even by your own logic of needing to do what is needed to win that is not what is happening. Again, quite the opposite. We have not won the hearts and minds. The vast majority of Iraqi people want us out of there. Over 70% last time I checked. We have not kept our promises to them or to our own people. It’s less safe than maybe ever in Iraq. There is now violent religious zealots with their fingers in everything where it once was secular. There are more terrorists, even whole new groups!
We have lost this war. It's been lost at the expense of our good men and women in uniform, the people of Iraq, our economic strength both here at home and in the rest of the world, our good name as a country. And for what? For what ?!?!?
I’ll tell you what. War profiterring.
And tell me again why we are committing torture? Keep in mind that it is a violation of every applicable law AND doesn’t produce accurate info? So why are we doing it if not as an attempt to produce false confessions ? What purpose does it serve?
Please watch the CSPAN videos. I think it will likely open your eyes up wider than you can even imagine.
LadyLuck
06-21-2008, 03:52 PM
One more thing for Ben401 and anyone else who still defends torture and the war.
Is there anything that will or could prove to you that it's wrong? Anything?
I ask because I have been through this with many of you several times now and nothing is getting through to you. So I'd like to know if it is even possible to get you all to see the error of all this mess.
Are you all willing AT ALL to see things from a point of view other than what the Bush admin has told you?
Or is really truely a matter of whatever they say goes. End of story?
Melonie
06-21-2008, 04:36 PM
Is there anything that will or could prove to you that it's wrong? Anything?
yes there is ... bringing back to life the two friends of mine that were killed in the World Trade Center attack on 9/11 !
As long as there is a threat that some islamic fanatic is planning to execute another attack on New York that could result in the death of more of my (innocent, civilian) friends - and if there is a good chance that aggressive questioning of known islamic enemy combatants who were captured on a foreign battlefield while trying to kill American soldiers and who are now held in custody at Gitmo will yield intelligence that could result in that future attack (and the death of more of my friends) being prevented - then by all means flip that waterboard !!!
LadyLuck
06-21-2008, 07:21 PM
Ok so that is one no answer from Melonie (even though the facts show that torture has never saved lives, provides no usable intel, creates more terrorists and makes the "enemy" want to kill more of us) Anyone else?
Just want to know if it's worth my time to have further discussion about this with any of you who support torture and the war?
Thanks for the reply, Melonie. I'm so very sorry to hear about about the loss of your friends :hug:
Melonie
06-21-2008, 08:03 PM
Thanks for the reply, Melonie. I'm so very sorry to hear about about the loss of your friends
thank you ! While this is filed under the heading of 'ancient history' at this point, there's no denying that the death of my friends in the WTC attack did affect my personal viewpoint on the subject of preventing similar attacks in the future.
Undoubtedly it also colors my judgement when people make comments on the subject of treatment / rights of islamic enemy combatants who were taken into custody on foreign battlefields while trying to kill US soldiers = islamic enemy combatants who are allies with or part of the same groups of islamic terrorists that were responsible for the 9/11 attacks ... comments which I probably mistakenly attribute to a lack of appreciation that future islamic terrorist attacks may actually affect the person making the comments (and their friends) instead of me (and my friends in New York).
Of course in the real world, 98% of Americans would never be targeted by a future islamic terrorist attack since A. they live in areas that don't have sufficient population density or worldwide importance to be worth the terrorist effort, B. they live in areas that vocally support terrorist rights / accept previous terrorist acts as being morally justified / support politicians and policies that would treat islamic terrorists and the countries that support them in a beneficial manner etc., C. they live in areas with sufficiently large muslim populations that the potential collateral damage from a possible attack would be unacceptable to islamic terrorists etc.
I guess my perception on the issue of future terrorist attacks and comments made by people who will never be at personal risk of a future attack can be likened to perceptions on the issue of problems involving poor black inner city residents and comments made by people who aren't black, aren't poor, and don't live anywhere near the inner city !
~
jester214
06-21-2008, 09:24 PM
Ok so that is one no answer from Melonie (even though the facts show that torture has never saved lives, provides no usable intel, creates more terrorists and makes the "enemy" want to kill more of us) Anyone else?
Just want to know if it's worth my time to have further discussion about this with any of you who support torture and the war?
Thanks for the reply, Melonie. I'm so very sorry to hear about about the loss of your friends :hug:
Proof really? So I guess everyone in the chain of people involved are dumber than you? Please, I refuse to beleive that out of all these people, everyone of them is just refusing to look at the evidence.
jester214
06-21-2008, 09:37 PM
In reply to Bem401,
What do you mean no attacks? Our allies/interests have been attacked. Have you forgot about London and Madrid? Those attacks happened becuase of their connection to the US attacking iraq. Not to mention that there are more people in terrorist groups than before we went into Iraq. There are even new groups that did not exist before we went into Iraq.
Add to that there are more people than ever the world who now view the US in a extremely poor light than EVER before. How can you say we are safer when we have continued attacks, more terrorists and more ill will towards America.
Yes the whole WMD thing was fake not flawed. Are you not aware of the Downing Street Memo that proves it? If not, here some info for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_memo
http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/memos.html
I am anti war, period but even by your own logic of needing to do what is needed to win that is not what is happening. Again, quite the opposite. We have not won the hearts and minds. The vast majority of Iraqi people want us out of there. Over 70% last time I checked. We have not kept our promises to them or to our own people. It’s less safe than maybe ever in Iraq. There is now violent religious zealots with their fingers in everything where it once was secular. There are more terrorists, even whole new groups!
We have lost this war. It's been lost at the expense of our good men and women in uniform, the people of Iraq, our economic strength both here at home and in the rest of the world, our good name as a country. And for what? For what ?!?!?
I’ll tell you what. War profiterring.
And tell me again why we are committing torture? Keep in mind that it is a violation of every applicable law AND doesn’t produce accurate info? So why are we doing it if not as an attempt to produce false confessions ? What purpose does it serve?
Please watch the CSPAN videos. I think it will likely open your eyes up wider than you can even imagine.
Proof? Downing Street is proof? A memo floating around the office's of a foreign government are proof? This isn't proof.
LadyLuck
06-21-2008, 11:04 PM
While this is filed under the heading of 'ancient history' at this point, there's no denying that the death of my friends in the WTC attack did affect my personal viewpoint on the subject of preventing similar attacks in the future.
Undoubtedly it also colors my judgement when people make comments on the subject of treatment / rights of islamic enemy combatants.I've put quite alot of thought into this subject lately and forgive my arm chair psychology attempts but this is what I have come up with. I hope it will do some good in bridging the divide between our two represented sides.
What we have here is the desire for revenge on large numbers of nameless, faceless people who have been right or wrongly been associated with those whom committed an act of terrorism on 9/11.
Considering that revenge is a basic, albeit base human reaction to personal tragedy, it is not always possible to counter the desire for revenge with arguments rooted in fact or logic.
The biggest difference between those who support this war and the torture of detainees and those of us who oppose seems to be that the supporters do not really differentiate between those who committed the crimes and the millions of others persons who share the same religion or nationality as the criminals.
Those of us who oppose it do in fact differentiate between the two groups and thus can see past anger and or grief and are only interested in moral, legal punishments of the few guilty persons rather than revenge on countless nameless faceless millions.
I also believe that genetics, environment and experiences make some people more likely to experience the need for revenge than others. This is why some people experience feelings of grief, anger and fear without it leading to desire for revenge and others do go there.
It can be very hard to understand the other sides point of view on these matters but one thing that I think we can and should do is to accept that both are usually coming from a well meaning place. Misguided maybe but well meaning none the less
I have decided that these days especially we all probably need to show more sympathy and compassion for the others position. All this frustration and anger on both sides isn’t helping anyone.
Gandhi teaches that we should be the change we wish to see. Today seems like darn good day to start.
Melonie
06-22-2008, 06:45 AM
The biggest difference between those who support this war and the torture of detainees and those of us who oppose seems to be that the supporters do not really differentiate between those who committed the crimes and the millions of others persons who share the same religion or nationality as the criminals.
I have to take issue with your postulate that this simply boils down to a desire for revenge against people who are 'different' ... specifically against people of the Islamic faith or people who live in Arab countries.
To begin with, every single detainee at Gitmo was captured on an Iraqi or Afghan BATTLEFIELD with a gun in their hand, or captured while actively involved in the early stages of an aborted terrorist attack. These detainees were not randomly abducted while quietly and innocently eating dinner or praying to Mecca in their Iraqi or Afghan homes !!! IMHO this is grounds for some MAJOR differentiation.
Next, any blanket statement that supporters of Gitmo's anti-terrorist efforts up to and including the possible use of high pressure interrogation ( the technical term 'torture' has many definitions) automatically consider ALL Muslims and / or ALL residents of Arab countries to be 'bad' is akin to a blanket accusation of racism. This of course is a familiar strategy in the proverbial 'Liberal Playbook', but in fact such accusations of racism (or xenophobia or whatever) are not true ... and are not even close to being true.
There are 'good guys' and there are 'bad guys' where Muslims / Arabs are concerned, in exactly the same manner that there are 'good guys' and 'bad guys' who are black, who are hispanic, who are Irish, who are members of any sort of subgroup. The vast, VAST majority of Muslims / Arabs (or black / hispanic / Irish / any sort of subgroup) are 'good guys'. The Gitmo detainees are 'bad guys' as proven by the circumstances of their capture, and IMHO do not need a legal determination of guilt from a US civilian court to end an otherwise mandatory civilian presumption of innocence and otherwise mandatory respect for civilian rights. It's that simple and that basic !
~
LadyLuck
06-22-2008, 12:35 PM
every single detainee at Gitmo was captured on an Iraqi or Afghan BATTLEFIELD with a gun in their hand, or captured while actively involved in the early stages of an aborted terrorist attack. Again I have understanding and compassion for why you may feel the way you do but I do need to correct some factual inaccurate claims you are making. I accept they make no difference to you and I have sympathy for why as well but other readers might prefer the truth.
For example most of the Gitmo detainees were not captured on the battlefield at all. They were purchased from local warlords.
Also hundreds of Gitmo detainees have never even been charged with anyting and freed. Quite a few stood trial in their home countries, mostly US allies btw and they were declared innocent.
the majority were 'bought' for a substantial bounty (generally in the region of $US 5,000) from various warlords and mercenaries both in Afghanistan and elsewhere
“The Associated Press was able to track 245 of those formerly held at Guantanamo. The investigation, which spanned 17 countries, found:
Once the detainees arrived in other countries, 205 of the 245 were either freed without being charged or were cleared of charges related to their detention at Guantanamo.”
“most had been ‘sold’ for bounties to U.S. forces by Afghan warlords who invented links between the men and al-Qaida. "
“All 29 detainees who were repatriated to Britain, Spain, Germany, Russia, Australia, Turkey, Denmark, Bahrain and the Maldives were freed”
“Murat Kurnaz, a German-born Turkish citizen, was also quickly freed when he was flown to Germany in August, bound hand and foot, after more than four years at Guantanamo.
U.S. officials maintained he was a member of al-Qaida, based on what they said was secret evidence.”
In October German prosecutors said they found no evidence that Kurnaz had links to Islamic radicals in Pakistan or Afghanistan and formally dropped their investigation.”
“Six Kuwaitis returned from Guantanamo stood trial on terror-related charges. Five were acquitted, and on Dec. 5 an appeals court overturned the conviction of the sixth”
And all that doesn’t even include Abu Ghraib where by even the admission of the US military 90% were completely innocent.
Janis Karpinski, the commander of Abu Ghraib, demoted for her lack of oversight regarding the abuse, estimated later that 90% of detainees in the prison were innocent
Lady Luck, your argument is passionate but seriously. Once Chris Matthews said his leg tingled when Obama spoke that sort of ruined any thought that MSNBC is objective.
Wiki is pretty much useless other than for spell checking.
I bet you have some better sources in your back pocket.
FBR
LadyLuck
06-22-2008, 01:38 PM
Lady Luck, your argument is passionate but seriously. Once Chris Matthews said his leg tingled when Obama spoke that sort of ruined any thought that MSNBC is objective.
Wiki is pretty much useless other than for spell checking.
I bet you have some better sources in your back pocket.
FBRYes, FBR I'm sure I could find hundreds of sources from all over the world, but they are going to say much the same things because these are the facts. Besides wasn't the msnbc is a reprint from the AP?
I take it you didn't open the msnbc link to even check the info or I bet you would have noticed that it is an AP report that has been re-reported by msnbc. You just decided it was unworthy because what you heard Mathews say one time. It's ok though I do that sometimes too with stuff from FoxNews for example.
And seriously the reality is that people who are pro war and pro torture wouldn't accept ANY source no matter where or from who because it's really all about them wanting revenge to hopefully eliminate their feelings of loss and fear. It's not about logic or facts for them at all. It never was and it never will be either. Their desire for revenge prevents logic and facts from coming into play. It's a common and natural reaction for many, many people in the aftermath of tragedy.
Problem with the revenge thing is that most of the people who committed those acts of terrorism are already dead. Most of them died on 9/11.
I understand that it must be VERY difficult to feel the need for revenge and yet have the majority of those who actually deserve it dead. That is why others who can be in some way or another be connected, either by race, religion or nationality then become the targets.
Revenge seekers NEED a target and if the deserving folks are unavailable, the focus becomes what they feel is the next best group. That type of thing has happened throughout history, it is not new or unique to this topic or situation.
With the exception of a very few, those that don’t truly differentiate between terrorists and others from the same nation or religion are not actually racist. It can manifest into that sometimes but usually it’s not that kind of thing that does not allow them to differentiate. It’s their grief and fear which has resulted in that need for revenge.
In other words, the desire for revenge does not have it’s roots in pure hate and has much more to do with love, loss and fear. It’s pretty easy to see which is which too. The racist ones use slurs like sand fleas, make references to camels etc, etc. The rest do not- they have whole other motivation.
Also as I mentioned before I didn't post those quotes for the unmovable pro war and pro torture site members. I've accepted they do not want or are not able to consder facts or logic. It was posted because of factualy incorrect claims. I feel those not in or fully married to the pro war/pro torture side in this topic might prefer the truth instead. So I made it available for them to consider or research further.
bem401
06-23-2008, 08:05 AM
I disagree LL that this is all about revenge. It's about safety and self-preservation.
How would you have handled the 9/11 attack and suspicions about Iraq had you been calling the shots? Hindsight is always 20/20. Its easy to jump on the "Bush is the devil" or "Bush is an idiot " or "Bush is a liar" or "Bush is a war criminal" bandwagons, but seriously, what should we have spent the last 7 yearsa doing to promote national security?
LadyLuck
06-23-2008, 11:04 AM
Bem401,
I was quite sure even back then that the Iraq connection was false. There was so much historical data as well as current info available to even us "little people" that showed it was seriously unlikely.
I also would not have broke ranks with the UN either. That was a huge mistake and I knew it deep down in those days as well.
Between what I knew intellectually combined with instinct my decision would have been to complete inspections and then follow the recommendations of the UN. I have not have used the whole cowboy diplomacy thing in place of tried and true tactics.
I also would never,ever have pulled out of the World Court because should a prosecution be needed or possible it's simply not a good idea to look like it was Bush's personal agenda. It would have been for all intensive purposes the world against the accused rather than the US against the accused.
If little ole me was able to have figured that the connection between Iraq and 9/11 was complete crap it shouldn't have been so hard for the people in power to figure out.
Ofcourse now we know that the facts are that they knew it was crap b/c they created the crap on purpose. The why factor is debatable but it’s a absolute fact that they created a false connection in order to gain support from frightened citizens.
They used and are STILL using your fears against you. Other leaders have done the same thing many times throughout history. I recognized it right away and refused to fall for it. Beside Osama’s goal was also to create such fear and I was damned if I was going to let him win that battle over me. No way, no how, never. going to happen. If you live in fear, especially years later then the terrorists have already won.
By the way, not to be a "told ya so" type but I so far I have been 100% in all my predictions about the war in Iraq. It's not been a good feeling to know I was correct either. It's been sad, scary and frustrating all at the same time.
What would I do to keep us safe? First off STOP pissing off millions of people around the world. It’s quite simple really. Stop making people WANT to harm you and you become a hell of a lot more safe. Other than that diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy. History shows that it works much more often than it doesn't.
And finally it’s just part of life that bad things happen. So it’s best to accept it and be prepared to do the clean up the mess when those things do happen. No country is at zero risk for acts of international and most commonly domestic terrorism. That’s life and we all just have to deal with it and do the best we can to not let the fear of it run our daily lives because if we do let it consume us why bother living at all?
I hope that answered your question.
bem401
06-24-2008, 05:53 AM
Bem401,I hope that answered your question.
Well, it made your position clear. It's just a case where we don't see eye to eye.
I don't think the war was based so much on fake info as it was on flawed info. I think the UN was and is a joke. Saddam paid no mind to them and the inspections people whatsoever.
I also don't think we should conduct foreign policy worrying about what the rest of the world thinks about us. Those who support us will continue to support us and those who hate us will continue to hate us, and who really cares what they think anyway.
The one overriding fact remains that the US homeland hasn't seen a terrorist attack since 9/11 and in the weeks and months following that sad day, you'd have been hard-pressed to find people who'd have believed things would turn out that way.
Dirty Ernie
06-24-2008, 07:34 AM
The borders are still porous, TSA is a feel good pacifier for the public and an ineffective security force, and the president visits his buddy in Saudi Arabia, home of nearly all the 9/11 terrorists and a major funding source of Al-Quaida. GWB has had little to do with the fact that there has not been another attack in this country.
LadyLuck
06-24-2008, 09:43 AM
I also don't think we should conduct foreign policy worrying about what the rest of the world thinks about us. Those who support us will continue to support us and those who hate us will continue to hate us, and who really cares what they think anyway.
And that dear Bem, is the root of the problem. Not caring and acting in that manner is what makes us such a huge target for terrorism. As long as we continue to "not care" and act accordingly we are all running around with a big giant kill me sign on our collective backs.
If you want improved national safety you and everyone else had better start caring.
Please watch this and this then read the book and get back to me on if you still think we shouldn't give a sh*t about what we are doing to other nations and what the rest of the world thinks of us because those actions.
bem401
06-24-2008, 10:10 AM
There have been no attacks since 9/11 on US soil. You can say its because of Bush or despite Bush. The fact is there have been none. There will be none for the next several months because our enemies want Obama in office and an attack would work to McCain's benefit politically, just like Charlie Black said.
As far as our enemies or the rest of the world is concerned, I don't care if they hate us, as long as they don't attack us.
I'll watch those segments when I have time and offer a response, but who is the guy and what show is he on?
LadyLuck
06-24-2008, 10:38 AM
Watch and find out or better yet read the book! Much more detail in the book and it's not super a$$ long either, only about 300 pages. The title is Confessions of an Economic Hitman by John Perkins.
Hell, I'll even send you my beat up and highlighted copy if you aren't willing to spend the 10 buck or so it costs to purchase. But you have to promise to actually read it and not use it for fire kindling or something, lol!
Not sure why but I can just tell you are not a bad person, Bem. You deserve to know all the available facts on why thing like 9/11 occurred and may continue to occur. You just got to open your eyes, ears and most of all your mind. Stop buying into the Bush/Neocon bs and begin to REALLY look at the big picture.
If you do that, you can then start to make more informed choices that will help your country be a safer and better place :)
LadyLuck
06-24-2008, 10:58 AM
For anyone around here interested,
More thought provoking stuff from John Perkins. This comes from a speech at the Veterans for Peace convention.
Eric Stoner
06-24-2008, 11:21 AM
What about the "suspected " terrorists who were released and then went back to shooting at and blowing up Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan ?
I'm not aware of any torture for the sake of torture at Gitmo. Afaik a grand total of three (3) Al Queda big wigs were waterboarded.
Afaic the detainees at Gitmo are either POW's or War Criminals. They should be labeled and treated as one or the other and not this nebulous "unlawful combatant" tag that the Bushies came up with. Well actually they got it straight from the Geneva Conventions.
LadyLuck
06-24-2008, 03:52 PM
Here is a great article written by one of the few conservatives out there in the media with a true sense of right and wrong.
It’s also interesting to note that he himself a few years back defended Bush.
Also if you vote in the poll at the end and then look at the results by State you will notice that the only State to vote a solid "No" response is one of the poorest, least educated States in our nation, Mississippi. Coincidence? Probably not.
TarsTone
06-25-2008, 06:17 AM
Everything I have to say on the torture issue has already been said by Melonie, Jester and Bem. But at the risk of threadjacking, I just want to say that nothing amuses me like hearing dopey white chicks parrot the crap they read on Daily Kos and Michael Moore’s blog, especially when they defend Islam and feel all proud of themselves for being one of the “good” white people. :)
What these lost souls don’t realize is that the religion they are defending would piss all over their sharing, caring, syrupy ideals in a heart beat.
I should know. I grew up in a Muslim country. Just about everything the Left stands for, especially on sex and gender issues, is violently opposed by Islam.
Just because there are secular Muslims who don’t believe in violence and fanaticism, doesn’t mean that the religion itself doesn’t advocate such views. Your position is just as naïve as saying Catholicism is a liberal faith because you have some catholic friends who don’t mind abortion.::)
You think Islam gets a bad rap from the evil whitey? I got news for ya….Your very existence as a woman who takes her clothes off for money entitles you to a status less than a dog in that “oppressed” religion you’re defending. (The rampant hypocrisy of our token Muslim stripper doesn’t change a damn thing.)
You believe in Gay rights? Familiarize yourself with Sharia Law and ask practicing Muslims what they think of queers, and in countries where the government is run in accordance to the Sharia, ask what is legally done to homosexuals. Find out what the penalty for pre-marital sex is. Ask them about the stoning punishment for adulterers, where even the size of the stones being thrown at the woman’s head is specified by Sharia Law. I keep repeating the highlighted part for the self-righteous little "kitten" who thinks she’s got it all figured out at 18 because she reads “progressive” blogs and watches youtube.::)
I have always been shocked by the childlike simplicity of the Leftists and their willingness to defend any culture as long as it isn’t their own, even if said culture stands in direct opposition to their own liberal values. It is such a gullible, clueless school of thought that it beggars belief.
This is exactly why I think this country is doomed in the long term. You have a bunch of gun-totting, religious wackos on the Right, and on the Left a horde of damaged, infantile loons with mommy/daddy issues whose entire philosophy is based on self-loathing.
For fuck's sake, get a clue. And for once, do what you preach: Stop letting leftist bloggers and Obama Monthlies make up your mind for you. Do some research on your own, and when judging issues, use some reason and common sense instead of all this raw emotion.
Eric Stoner
06-25-2008, 07:07 AM
Everything I have to say on the torture issue has already been said by Melonie, Jester and Bem. But at the risk of threadjacking, I just want to say that nothing amuses me like hearing dopey white chicks parrot the crap they read on Daily Kos and Michael Moore’s blog, especially when they defend Islam and feel all proud of themselves for being one of the “good” white people. :)
What these lost souls don’t realize is that the religion they are defending would piss all over their sharing, caring, syrupy ideals in a heart beat.
I should know. I grew up in a Muslim country. Just about everything the Left stands for, especially on sex and gender issues, is violently opposed by Islam.
Just because there are secular Muslims who don’t believe in violence and fanaticism, doesn’t mean that the religion itself doesn’t advocate such views. Your position is just as naïve as saying Catholicism is a liberal faith because you have some catholic friends who don’t mind abortion.::)
You think Islam gets a bad rap from the evil whitey? I got news for ya….Your very existence as a woman who takes her clothes off for money entitles you to a status less than a dog in that “oppressed” religion you’re defending. (The rampant hypocrisy of our token Muslim stripper doesn’t change a damn thing.)
You believe in Gay rights? Familiarize yourself with Sharia Law and ask practicing Muslims what they think of queers, and in countries where the government is run in accordance to the Sharia, ask what is legally done to homosexuals. Find out what the penalty for pre-marital sex is. Ask them about the stoning punishment for adulterers, where even the size of the stones being thrown at the woman’s head is specified by Sharia Law. I keep repeating the highlighted part for the self-righteous little "kitten" who thinks she’s got it all figured out at 18 because she reads “progressive” blogs and watches youtube.::)
I have always been shocked by the childlike simplicity of the Leftists and their willingness to defend any culture as long as it isn’t their own, even if said culture stands in direct opposition to their own liberal values. It is such a gullible, clueless school of thought that it beggars belief.
This is exactly why I think this country is doomed in the long term. You have a bunch of gun-totting, religious wackos on the Right, and on the Left a horde of damaged, infantile loons with mommy/daddy issues whose entire philosophy is based on self-loathing.
For fuck's sake, get a clue. And for once, do what you preach: Stop letting leftist bloggers and Obama Monthlies make up your mind for you. Do some research on your own, and when judging issues, use some reason and common sense instead of all this raw emotion.
There is NO need to personalize this. NONE ! Yes, there are fringe elements on both the right and left. So what ? There is a lot of misinformation and half baked ideologically driven nonsense being thrown around by both sides. Big Deal !
There is a legitimate debate about how to treat the Gitmo detainees irregardless
of what religion they practice. There are legitimate questions raised about Bush and his unilateral assumption of extra-Constitutional powers as C in C. It has nothing to do with whether or not one respects Islam and/or Islamic cultures.
TarsTone
06-25-2008, 07:31 AM
There is NO need to personalize this. NONE !
Ease up on the caps and exclamation points, Champ.
I indicated in the very beginning that my post was slightly off-topic and addressed to particular posters and their misguided world views.
Yes, there are fringe elements on both the right and left. So what ? There is a lot of misinformation and half baked ideologically driven nonsense being thrown around by both sides. Big Deal!
Big deal?! :)
Buddy, when those "fringe elements" are dominating the discussion and views are being offered solely based on "misinformation and half baked ideologically driven nonsense", then I would say that is a pretty big deal worthy of being addressed.
Eric Stoner
06-25-2008, 08:56 AM
Ease up on the caps and exclamation points, Champ.
I indicated in the very beginning that my post was slightly off-topic and addressed to particular posters and their misguided world views.
Big deal?! :)
Buddy, when those "fringe elements" are dominating the discussion and views are being offered solely based on "misinformation and half baked ideologically driven nonsense", then I would say that is a pretty big deal worthy of being addressed.
Excuse me. "Dopey white chicks" ? "lost souls" ? Your words. Not mine. And you stated from the git go your post was addressed to certain posters and what you regard as their misguided views.
I reject your premise that the discussion is being dominated by fringe elements.
Afaic participation does not mean domination.
Not that many people read The Daily Kos and fewer yet rely on it for serious info.
There are certainly views which might appear to you and I to be factually delinquent, here and elsewhere. Isn't that always the case ?
LadyLuck
06-25-2008, 11:57 AM
Everything I have to say on the torture issue has already been said by Melonie, Jester and Bem. But at the risk of threadjacking, I just want to say that nothing amuses me like hearing dopey white chicks parrot the crap they read on Daily Kos and Michael Moore’s blog, especially when they defend Islam and feel all proud of themselves for being one of the “good” white people. :)
What these lost souls don’t realize is that the religion they are defending would piss all over their sharing, caring, syrupy ideals in a heart beat.
I should know. I grew up in a Muslim country. Just about everything the Left stands for, especially on sex and gender issues, is violently opposed by Islam.
Just because there are secular Muslims who don’t believe in violence and fanaticism, doesn’t mean that the religion itself doesn’t advocate such views. Your position is just as naïve as saying Catholicism is a liberal faith because you have some catholic friends who don’t mind abortion.::)
You think Islam gets a bad rap from the evil whitey? I got news for ya….Your very existence as a woman who takes her clothes off for money entitles you to a status less than a dog in that “oppressed” religion you’re defending. (The rampant hypocrisy of our token Muslim stripper doesn’t change a damn thing.)
You believe in Gay rights? Familiarize yourself with Sharia Law and ask practicing Muslims what they think of queers, and in countries where the government is run in accordance to the Sharia, ask what is legally done to homosexuals. Find out what the penalty for pre-marital sex is. Ask them about the stoning punishment for adulterers, where even the size of the stones being thrown at the woman’s head is specified by Sharia Law. I keep repeating the highlighted part for the self-righteous little "kitten" who thinks she’s got it all figured out at 18 because she reads “progressive” blogs and watches youtube.::)
I have always been shocked by the childlike simplicity of the Leftists and their willingness to defend any culture as long as it isn’t their own, even if said culture stands in direct opposition to their own liberal values. It is such a gullible, clueless school of thought that it beggars belief.
This is exactly why I think this country is doomed in the long term. You have a bunch of gun-totting, religious wackos on the Right, and on the Left a horde of damaged, infantile loons with mommy/daddy issues whose entire philosophy is based on self-loathing.
For fuck's sake, get a clue. And for once, do what you preach: Stop letting leftist bloggers and Obama Monthlies make up your mind for you. Do some research on your own, and when judging issues, use some reason and common sense instead of all this raw emotion.
Oh buddy, I can tell by your post that this "dopey white chic", "kitten" (and whatever other misogynist terms you used to described women) has done more research on this subject matter than you have done on probably any subject under the sun. I am my own person who is not beholden to any one political party, media personality or anything else of the sort. I much prefer fact, logic and ethics. Something I can see is not the case with your thought process.
If you think this topic is all about defending a religion then you are the one who hasn't the first effn clue. It's about the difference between legal and not legal, keeping our own nation safe and well respected in the international community and most of all about the very basic ideals of right and wrong.
Where the hell you come up with accusations of self loathing, mommy/daddy stuff and all that other ridiculous and intentionally insulting CRAP probably has more to do with your own issues than anyone else around here. That is usually the way that kind of thing goes. Especially on message boards. But hey if you feel better about yourself after writing such dribble then glad to be of help ;)
PS- I'm not some uneducated 18 year old either. I am a very well traveled 30 something, sorry to bust your little misogynist bubble.
TarsTone
06-25-2008, 01:09 PM
;D
I should have seen it coming. Typical misdirection tactic by ideologues when they've been cornered in an argument. I can almost see the thought bubbles:
"Oh fuck. I can't refute his words. Time to call him a racist. Oh shit, he's actually from there.....Umm... ok....I'll pretend to be outraged at the personal comments even though I initiated them from the very first page. I'll pretend not to know that by Kitten he was referring to TheSexKitten. I'll even call him a Misogynist even though he directly criticized Islam for its treatment of women. That should create enough distraction and derail the argument."
Pathetic.::)
Don't think for a second that I'm buying any of this false indignation. For the record, here are the personal comments by LadyLuck and other posters which neither she nor Eric had a problem with:
PS- I think I am going to have to take a break from the site for awhile because I don't think I can contain the expletives I wish to hurl at the complete lack of even a sliver of humanity you and a few others around here exhibit.
and thats why you are a sad, sad man....scratch that your not a man. and youd certainly never be a hero. god i hope after that comment you have no children.
The rest of your rant is pure racism and simply not worth further comment even though I could say so much in response, but I wouldn’t dare to lower myself to your level because as these wise words warn- be careful when fighting monsters lest you become one.
Oh wait, let me consult my Leftist Hypocrite Manual. It seems there's been a misunderstanding; its not personal when you do it.:)
The only thing more ridiculous than your views is your hypocrisy. You just picked the wrong target this time around. Better luck next time.
jester214
06-25-2008, 08:32 PM
TarsTone, I agree with a lot of what you said, but still tone it down a bit bud, many of your comments would mean a lot more if said in a different "tone".
As to LL, obviously that traveling and 30 something years didn't teach a lot did they? Notice how you only look at the "personal" comment instead of attempting to refute him.
jester214
06-25-2008, 08:42 PM
Bem401,
I was quite sure even back then that the Iraq connection was false. There was so much historical data as well as current info available to even us "little people" that showed it was seriously unlikely.
I also would not have broke ranks with the UN either. That was a huge mistake and I knew it deep down in those days as well.
Between what I knew intellectually combined with instinct my decision would have been to complete inspections and then follow the recommendations of the UN. I have not have used the whole cowboy diplomacy thing in place of tried and true tactics.
I also would never,ever have pulled out of the World Court because should a prosecution be needed or possible it's simply not a good idea to look like it was Bush's personal agenda. It would have been for all intensive purposes the world against the accused rather than the US against the accused.
If little ole me was able to have figured that the connection between Iraq and 9/11 was complete crap it shouldn't have been so hard for the people in power to figure out.
Ofcourse now we know that the facts are that they knew it was crap b/c they created the crap on purpose. The why factor is debatable but it’s a absolute fact that they created a false connection in order to gain support from frightened citizens.
They used and are STILL using your fears against you. Other leaders have done the same thing many times throughout history. I recognized it right away and refused to fall for it. Beside Osama’s goal was also to create such fear and I was damned if I was going to let him win that battle over me. No way, no how, never. going to happen. If you live in fear, especially years later then the terrorists have already won.
By the way, not to be a "told ya so" type but I so far I have been 100% in all my predictions about the war in Iraq. It's not been a good feeling to know I was correct either. It's been sad, scary and frustrating all at the same time.
What would I do to keep us safe? First off STOP pissing off millions of people around the world. It’s quite simple really. Stop making people WANT to harm you and you become a hell of a lot more safe. Other than that diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy. History shows that it works much more often than it doesn't.
And finally it’s just part of life that bad things happen. So it’s best to accept it and be prepared to do the clean up the mess when those things do happen. No country is at zero risk for acts of international and most commonly domestic terrorism. That’s life and we all just have to deal with it and do the best we can to not let the fear of it run our daily lives because if we do let it consume us why bother living at all?
I hope that answered your question.
Ah yes, funny how I remember relatively few people thinking we shouldn't be going into Iraq before we actually did it. I being one, my father being another, and I can only think of a couple other "common" people who thought the same way. And the majority of the people who thought we shouldn't go, didn't argue against it because they didn't believe in the connection, they just didn't think it was the right way to go about things. That was my though.
Yet you were able to put the pieces together, beyond 95+% of Americans, and above Congressmen on both sides of the system. You are a veritable genius!
What bullshit.