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LadyLuck
06-18-2008, 10:19 AM
Now there is evidence that the Bush admin. commited war crimes with torture at Gitmo as well as at Abu Ghraib. Probably the worst part of this is the people were completely innocent and were not only tortured but held for years of their lives. Note they were eventually released without even a single charge of a crime.

And gee what is the punishment for war crimes again?

I predict that someday will we see GW Bush and his associates tried and sentenced for their part in the various acts of torture, rape and murder that have ordered and condoned.

Here are some snippets from the article describing some of the details of the latest info released. The full article is linked below.


Medical examinations of former terrorism suspects held by the U.S. military at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, found evidence of torture


evidence of U.S. torture and war crimes and accuses U.S. military health professionals of allowing the abuse of detainees, denying them medical care


One Iraqi prisoner, identified only as Yasser, reported being subjected to electric shocks three times and being sodomized with a stick. His thumbs bore round scars consistent with shocking,


The report came as the Senate Armed Services Committee revealed documents showing military lawyers warned the Pentagon that methods it was using post-9/11 violated military, U.S. and international law


Four reported being sodomized


All 11 were released without criminal charges.


Bush and other U.S. officials have consistently denied that the U.S. tortures its detainees.


The abuse of some prisoners by their American captors is well documented by the government's own reports

i.breathe.in
06-18-2008, 10:20 AM
holy crap i was just going to post this in your other thread but couldnt find it. its on cnn also.

Melonie
06-18-2008, 10:53 AM
hopefully, when Osama Bin Laden hears about this, he'll target a different US city besides New York next time ! Hopefully he'll also send a 'thank-you note' to the US Supreme Court !

In keeping with your precedent in other threads, I would point out that 'Doctors for Human Rights' is hardly an objective source ... and uncorroborated 'reports' by prisoners as to their supposed 'mistreatment' is certainly an area open to question. In other words, based on the AOL news story, there are lots of accusations but zero hard evidence to be found.

bem401
06-18-2008, 11:27 AM
A number of the prisoners released from Gitmo went back to Iraq and killed American soldiers.
Here's the story of one of them.

http://sweetness-light.com/archive-gitmo-terrorist-helped-kill-7-iraqis


had we released him like this, maybe those 7 would still be alive;

http://funny-potato.com/terrorist-release.html

I say if it saves American lives, torture away.

You do realize that those tortured ( if they were ) and released would have been killed if there wasn't a camp to detain them in?

doc-catfish
06-18-2008, 11:57 AM
But did they have to eat the cockmeat sandwich?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DFT2Vqtql4U&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=x_JFx7PZb7s&feature=related

i.breathe.in
06-18-2008, 11:59 AM
I say if it saves American lives, torture away.




this is the sad elitism of americans...we think our lives are worth more then anyone elses in the world. sorry, i think thats horrid on an epic scale.

TheSexKitten
06-18-2008, 12:01 PM
^^^ Absolutely agreed.

Melonie
06-18-2008, 12:11 PM
^^^ can't dispute that (re value of American lives). The islamic terrorists generally agree as well, thus chopping off heads of US civilians taken captive in Iraq on camera using a machete with the same lack of regret as when killing US military personnel with roadside IED's !

But hey look at the 'bright side'. There's no longer any reason to continue hunting for Osama Bin Laden. Thanks to the recent US Supreme Court ruling, if captured he would be presumed innocent under US civilian law and could drag his US civilian court appeals and newspaper coverage out until he dies of kidney failure !

... but back to the original topic ! "Where's the beef' so to speak ? The fact that an 'extreme' Human Rights advocacy group has leveed a bunch of charges immediately after the US Supreme Court ruling isn't surprising in the least. But under the same US civilian law which must now be used to cover captured terrorists during an 'undeclared' war, accusations and actual proof are two very different things.

LadyLuck
06-18-2008, 12:51 PM
For those who want to pretend it isn't real, I remind you that abuse of some prisoners is also well documented by our government's own reports. It's real folks. Even if you continue to choose to stick you fingers in your ears and chant "not happening, not happening" that doesn't make it go away.


I also find it downright disgusting to see some of the board's Neocon still defending and showing unconditional support these violations of military, domestic and international law.

Even if you can't muster some sympathy for these people who by even the military's own admission are guilty of no crimes (and thus have been set free, albeit AFTER years of imprisonment and in many cases torture) I'd think you could at the very least show some contempt for the violations of military, domestic and international law.

cinammonkisses
06-18-2008, 12:55 PM
this is the sad elitism of americans...we think our lives are worth more then anyone elses in the world. sorry, i think thats horrid on an epic scale.

Right on!!! I totally agree

TheSexKitten
06-18-2008, 12:58 PM
Even if you can't muster some sympathy for these people who by even the military's own admission are guilty of no crimes (and thus have been set free, albeit AFTER years of imprisonment and in many cases torture) I'd think you could at the very least show some contempt for the violations of military, domestic and international law.

:yes:

:-\

LadyLuck
06-18-2008, 01:05 PM
hopefully, when Osama Bin Laden hears about this, he'll target a different US city besides New York next time
Wow. Simply unbelievable!

Not only have you in the past couple of days written about how you plan to cast a vote with the express hopes of bringing about continued damage to our economy, then followed up with considering future investments in things you (incorrectly- thank goodness) claim will cause harm to the environment- butnow you are posting about WANTING to see a terrorist attack befall another US city besides NY too.

Ofcourse if a liberal minded person were to make those kinds of statements you Neocons would be calling them guilty of treason, a crime punishable by death.Yet, for some reason itís a-ok for a Neocon such as yourself to do such a horrid thing.


There are just no words to describe the revolution I feel right now.

PS- I think I am going to have to take a break from the site for awhile because I don't think I can contain the expletives I wish to hurl at the complete lack of even a sliver of humanity you and a few others around here exhibit.

Tauries
06-18-2008, 02:20 PM
PS- I think I am going to have to take a break from the site for awhile because I don't think I can contain the expletives I wish to hurl at the complete lack of even a sliver of humanity you and a few others around here exhibit.


On no....please don't don't threaten us with a good time. While your obsessive and past the borderline psychotic ravings are a source of great humor on the board (at your expense of course...thanx we do appreciate;) ), your love of murderous terrorists and hatred of America and Jews is really uncool and frankly sickening. Wow....some morons have "proof" american soldiers dressed up terrorists in womens underwear and did nothing to prevent them from sodomizing themselves in their free time...I guess we should feel bad for not paying to have the camels they normally mate with flown in? Good luck and good riddance!!

Melonie
06-18-2008, 02:27 PM
Not only have you in the past couple of days written about how you plan to cast a vote with the express hopes of bringing about continued damage to our economy, then followed up with considering future investments in things you (incorrectly- thank goodness) claim will cause harm to the environment- butnow you are posting about WANTING to see a terrorist attack befall another US city besides NY too.

you're a bit off base on your assumptions. #1 I considered casting a vote for Obama which I believe would cause short term damage to the US economy in exchange for a much greater long term improvement beginning after the 2012 election. The alternative would be to cast a vote for McCain which would cause lesser short term damage (but still damage), but with even more damage to follow beyond 2012.

#2 I do consider that the 'damn the torpedoes' expansion of solar / wind / ethanol gov't subsidies WILL increase damage to the environment on a global basis, for the simple reason that the higher costs involved will motivate more businesses to leave the USA (where their pollution is presently tightly controlled) with that lost production capacity being replaced by new capacity in Asia (where their pollution is NOT controlled). I'm not 100% happy with this option, not only for the net environmental damage but also for the economic burden that my solar / wind / ethanol profits will indirectly place on other US taxpayers, US gasoline buyers etc. However, I can't think of any plausible scenario (before a 2012 Democrat housecleaning at any rate) that would serve to keep production in the USA in the face of rapidly rising taxes / environmental compliance costs / electricity costs / SSI costs to employers etc. that Obama is proposing. Therefore my investment decision along these lines falls into the 'if you can't beat 'em join 'em' category i.e. perhaps the gov't subsidized profits and tax credits I will receive from investing in solar / wind / ethanol will offset the higher capital gains taxes, state income taxes, local property taxes etc. that are about to be imposed as a result of Democratic expansion of social welfare spending at every level.

Finally, I personally am not 'wishing' a terrorist attack on anyone. Arguably it is the US Supreme Court, and Barack Obama's position on national defense / dealing with 'terrorist' supporting countries etc. which will encourage another terrorist attack on US soil. If and when that happens, all I was hoping for is that New Yorkers wouldn't have to bear the brunt of such an attack 'alone' for a second time. Family / friends of the 9/11 victims, the good people of New York as a whole, New York taxpayers, and New York businesses all took a lot of 'collateral damage' as a result of the 9/11 attack. If other states are going to vote in a president and an even larger congressional majority which precipitates a second terrorist attack in response to their perceived weakness, then IMHO in fairness other states who elected them should directly share in the consequences of their election choices.


I also find it downright disgusting to see some of the board's Neocon still defending and showing unconditional support these violations of military, domestic and international law.

I am clearly not defending violations of military, domestic, and international law. However, as I have pointed out previously, the AOL news story consists of lots of allegations (from clearly biased / self-serving sources) but zero authoritative proof. Of course, like Dan Rather versus GWB, I am sure that some people are hoping that if they repeat these allegations long enough and loud enough that American voters will ASSUME they must be true. Personally, I'll withhold judgement until A - both sides are allowed to make their case in mainstream media, B - some non-forged documentation constituting authoritative proof of guilt emerges, or C - a US court indibts and convicts someone of these charges

~

bem401
06-18-2008, 04:20 PM
this is the sad elitism of americans...we think our lives are worth more then anyone elses in the world. sorry, i think thats horrid on an epic scale.

Its only natural to think my life is worth more to me than anyone else's is to me. And LL, when Melonie says she let our economy suffer a little more now to hopefully lead to a quicker turnaround, it makes sense. Mccain will be bad but not as bad as Obama. the worst case scenario is McCain wins, fucks things up, loses in '12 to either the Abomination or the Witch and then we get them to finish destroying the country. I don't want to speak for her but i think she is thinking about what is best for the long term. Historically it would be like for voting for carter in '76 to bring about a leader like Reagan.

Oh nad by the way, have you any idea how Muslims would treat women who worked in a strip club? Yet you paint America as the villain?

i.breathe.in
06-18-2008, 05:46 PM
Its only natural to think my life is worth more to me than anyone else's is to me

and thats why you are a sad, sad man....scratch that your not a man. and youd certainly never be a hero. god i hope after that comment you have no children.


Oh nad by the way, have you any idea how Muslims would treat women who worked in a strip club? Yet you paint America as the villain?

i do and i have made good money of of them at work over my 6 years dancing. i even danced for an amish guy once. he was in his 60s. both religions were respectful. imagine that! ::)

jester214
06-18-2008, 06:16 PM
this is the sad elitism of americans...we think our lives are worth more then anyone elses in the world. sorry, i think thats horrid on an epic scale.

Your statment sounds like the sad crap I hear from foreigners who don't know shit about what they're talking about.

People in every country in the world think like this, it's called nationalism, it teared apart Europe for a few hundred years. And it's still rampant in every country in the world today. Try and understand something, every country is out to protect themselves, people for the most part, are out to protect themselves. This isn't an American idea, it's a people idea. "Better him than me" goes beyond borders.

What people sometimes don't realize is that Americans take it to an extreme, for multiple reasons. The main being the fact that we're targets simply for being American, if people started going after innocent Costa Ricans, just because they were Costa Ricans, they'd probably be saying Costa Rica first as loud as they could.

jester214
06-18-2008, 06:18 PM
and thats why you are a sad, sad man....scratch that your not a man. and youd certainly never be a hero. god i hope after that comment you have no children.



i do and i have made good money of of them at work over my 6 years dancing. i even danced for an amish guy once. he was in his 60s. both religions were respectful. imagine that! ::)

Amish are pacifists, so bold description... Imagine what that muslim guy would do to you (an probably has done to other women) in a place where laws didn't keep him from it...

jester214
06-18-2008, 06:23 PM
For those who want to pretend it isn't real, I remind you that abuse of some prisoners is also well documented by our government's own reports. It's real folks. Even if you continue to choose to stick you fingers in your ears and chant "not happening, not happening" that doesn't make it go away.


I also find it downright disgusting to see some of the board's Neocon still defending and showing unconditional support these violations of military, domestic and international law.

Even if you can't muster some sympathy for these people who by even the military's own admission are guilty of no crimes (and thus have been set free, albeit AFTER years of imprisonment and in many cases torture) I'd think you could at the very least show some contempt for the violations of military, domestic and international law.

It's pretty damn easy sitting on a message board and decrying everything that is bad while at the same time you whine about how it's all one evil politicians fault. The questions on military domestic and international law are a whole nother debate, but I'm sure you could regurgitate whatever you read in "Hating Bush Monthly" on the subject, so I see no point.

LadyLuck
06-18-2008, 10:52 PM
Now that I have taken a couple hours to cool off and do something positive to cobat the negative stuff I was feeling so strongly this morning I can participate in a calm manner again.
your love of murderous terrorists and hatred of America and Jews is really uncool and frankly sickening. Wow....some morons have "proof" american soldiers dressed up terrorists in womens underwear and did nothing to prevent them from sodomizing themselves in their free time...I guess we should feel bad for not paying to have the camels they normally mate with flown in?

This Army General would be one of the people you refer to as a moron.

The two-star general who led an Army investigation into the horrific detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib has accused the Bush administration of war crimes and is calling for accountability


As for your fabrication of me loving terrorist, hating Jewish people and other such nonsense. You couldnít be more wrong. My husband and best friend are both of Jewish decent. Like them I oppose Zionism, as do many, many Jewish people around the world including in Israel itself.

As per your hate America claim, it is my love of my country which leads me to my disaproval of the actions and policies of the Bush administration. I am far from alone in that either. Over 70% of our nations population agree with me. So if you want to say I hate America, then so does over 70% of Americans.

Unbelievable that you say I am the sick one when it is you who defends torture. Even if you donít believe what has occurred to be torture, it is by law defined as torture. I oppose torture. You defend torture. Enough said.

The rest of your rant is pure racism and simply not worth further comment even though I could say so much in response, but I wouldnít dare to lower myself to your level because as these wise words warn- be careful when fighting monsters lest you become one.

LadyLuck
06-18-2008, 10:58 PM
To Mel, I've been on your case more than enough lately so I'm gonna pass on responding to your post. I've not much more to add that I have not written before anyway.

To Bem, I think you probably mean well but I find you misguided on a few subjects, sorry.

bem401
06-19-2008, 05:25 AM
and thats why you are a sad, sad man....scratch that your not a man. and youd certainly never be a hero. god i hope after that comment you have no children.



I am a sad sad man because I believe in self-preservation? These people were not rounded up down at the local 7-Eleven and incarcerated for being Muslim. They were enemy combatants we had reason to believe had information relevant to national security. What should we have done? Scolded them? you just don't get it. These people's mission in life is to kill Americans whenever and wherever possible.

You have a fucked-up defintion of heroism. I guess you characterize a hero as someone who does not do what is necessary to defend himself, his family, his friends, and his country from people trying to do them harm. Funny, I thought actions in the furtherance of that defense was the very definition of heroism.

And the children comment is pretty stupid. based on our disparate attitudes, somehow or other, I think my kids would be safer with someone like me than your kids would be with someone like you.

bem401
06-19-2008, 05:27 AM
To Bem, I think you probably mean well but I find you misguided on a few subjects, sorry.

I feel the same way but I still have hope for you.:)

Jenny
06-19-2008, 06:42 AM
And I'm sure you would all be reasonable enough to feel the exact same way if enemy countries or combatants were torturing american soldiers, tourists or aid workers. After all; they weren't rounded up at the 7-11 for being American. They likely have information that would save their lives. Etc. And therefore it is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. I mean, why have we ever bothered with the international convention against torture or the international covenant of civil and political rights or the universal declaration of human rights at all? What reasonable person could think torture is wrong? Rights against it are a bad thing. I mean countries, and for that matter, terrorist cells, have to protect themselves and anyone who doesn't want to be tortured should know better than to be suspected for something - although they are never really told what that is.

bem401
06-19-2008, 08:57 AM
And I'm sure you would all be reasonable enough to feel the exact same way if enemy countries or combatants were torturing american soldiers, tourists or aid workers. After all; they weren't rounded up at the 7-11 for being American. They likely have information that would save their lives. Etc. And therefore it is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. I mean, why have we ever bothered with the international convention against torture or the international covenant of civil and political rights or the universal declaration of human rights at all? What reasonable person could think torture is wrong? Rights against it are a bad thing. I mean countries, and for that matter, terrorist cells, have to protect themselves and anyone who doesn't want to be tortured should know better than to be suspected for something - although they are never really told what that is.

Was I dreaming every time I saw a news program reporting the beheading of a civilian in Iraq. Civilians who were, in fact, rounded up either for being American or for working with Americans?

LadyLuck
06-19-2008, 10:11 AM
This is in reply to Bem401's last post.

A simple yet wise phrase my Mum used with me when I was small applies nicely here.

Two wrongs do not make a right.


Some further thoughts- Considering world wide terrorism has got worse not better and hatred of Americans has increased a thousand fold since Bush started this mess just how effective are his kidnapping, holding people for years without charge and using torture policies?

Clearly it is not very effective if the goal is reduce terrorism. Also it's not very effective at making people NOT attack or want to harm American's and US interests and allies.

Isn't all this supposed to keep us and our interests and allies safer? And yet it has made things less safe.

Things that make you go hmmmm?

Have you ever considered that perhaps increased safety was not the Bush admins goal after all?

Perhaps the goal was in fact this mass cluster f*ck he/they have created?

Think about it. He and all his cohorts are BANKING off this catastrophe. Making money hand over fist. Huge chunks of that money is coming straight out of tax payer pockets too and we will be paying for this war for years and years to come as well.

They have used your worst fears against you to gather the support needed to screw you and all of us over. It's a big a$$ sham. It was calculated even before they took office too.

And people say Bush is dumb. HA! He fooled millions with the act.

People have been waking up to this over the past few years though. Thank goodness. Better late than never I suppose.

Now we just need to exact the strong arm of justice on their behinds. Put them in jail for the many war crimes they have committed and begin to regain control of our nation, our nations world wide rep. But most of all stop killing and torturing innocent people and instead focus on going after the few true terrorists like Bin Laden.

It is of great importance that we go after the Bin Ladens of the world in a legal and moral fashion though. We must use LEGAL means and stop violating not only our own laws but international law.

We must have fair trials and just punishment of ONLY those who have in fact committed acts of terrorism against the US. We need to stop just attacking entire countries and their peoples because of the acts of a EXTREEMLY small group of people who may have been born in that country or share the same religious identification.

We American's "claim" such moral superiority over yet our President and his friends and associates plan and act in ways that are equal to if not worse than those we say are the "enemy"

If we want to be seen as the best and the brightest of the world it is high time to start behaving as such again.

Jenny
06-19-2008, 10:55 AM
Was I dreaming every time I saw a news program reporting the beheading of a civilian in Iraq. Civilians who were, in fact, rounded up either for being American or for working with Americans?
And that is clearly a right and good thing to do, according to your logic. I mean, the government has to protect themselves. So what on earth could be wrong with that? It's just nice that Americans and Iraquis are on the same page when it comes to human rights issues of foreign nationals. I mean - it kind of makes you wonder why ya'all just can't get along.

TheSexKitten
06-19-2008, 11:06 AM
lol at bem bitching and moaning about Americans being targets of violence in Iraq. Well, yeah, that's what happens when you invade and fuck with a 3rd-world country, duh. I can hardly blame them, really.

cinammonkisses
06-19-2008, 11:51 AM
Oh nad by the way, have you any idea how Muslims would treat women who worked in a strip club? Yet you paint America as the villain?

Pssstt...if you didnt know I AM a Muslim. I get treated just fine.

P.S. There are a couple other Muslim dancers on this board as well. *winks*

seraya
06-19-2008, 12:40 PM
Pssstt...if you didnt know I AM a Muslim. I get treated just fine.

P.S. There are a couple other Muslim dancers on this board as well. *winks*No, bem is referring to Muslim CUSTOMERS and how they would treat women in a strip club.

Either way, he still sounds pretty ignorant.

TheSexKitten
06-19-2008, 12:49 PM
Sounds like he knows very little about Islam and likes to use Muslims as scapegoats for political problems.

Jenny
06-19-2008, 12:50 PM
No, bem he is referring to Muslim CUSTOMERS and how they would treat women in a strip club.

Either way, he still sounds pretty ignorant.
Nonsense. I mean all Christian/white men are perfectly delightful and treat us with boundless respectful deference, and it is only the brown muslim folk that make our work environment difficult. And that is why we ought to be torturing them. They are just going around giving strip club customers a bad name, when we all know that white, Christian customers would never dream of behaving disrespectfully. For shame, ladies. For shame, objecting to the physical and illegal torture of the only race of men who mistreats strippers. Forget nationalism - where is your sense of sisterhood?

LadyLuck
06-19-2008, 01:05 PM
Sounds like he knows very little about Islam and likes to use Muslims as scapegoats for political problems.

I think it is a combo of not knowing any better and parroting Republican mantra.
At least he's not hateful like the comments Tauries makes - ie the camel thing.
Someone like Bem could probably be enlightened with experience and information. But first he'd have to be willing. Today he doesn't seem willing but people can and do change.

LadyLuck
06-19-2008, 01:11 PM
Nonsense. I mean all Christian/white men are perfectly delightful and treat us with boundless respectful deference, and it is only the brown muslim folk that make our work environment difficult. And that is why we ought to be torturing them. They are just going around giving strip club customers a bad name, when we all know that white, Christian customers would never dream of behaving disrespectfully. For shame, ladies. For shame, objecting to the physical and illegal torture of the only race of men who mistreats strippers. Forget nationalism - where is your sense of sisterhood?


Hot damn, Jenny. ROFL. You should change your avatar to I heart sarcasm

bem401
06-19-2008, 01:15 PM
No, I was referring to how Muslims treat women in their culture, particularly those who do not conform to the ideal behavior. Being stoned is one of the punishments they dole out

http://www.amitiesquebec-israel.org/texts/stoning.htm

But yeah, you guys are right. I'm the one messed up, not the extremists.

cinammonkisses
06-19-2008, 01:23 PM
No, I was referring to how Muslims treat women in their culture, particularly those who do not conform to the ideal behavior. Being stoned is one of the punishments they dole out

http://www.amitiesquebec-israel.org/texts/stoning.htm

But yeah, you guys are right. I'm the one messed up, not the extremists.

OMG first I call you out since I am indeed a muslima myself. then you go on about how Muslims treat women in their culture. Ok, for me...AGAIN I am treated WELL..I've never been disrespected by ANY man, not even a Muslim man.

You can keep pulling as many online websites out ur ass but that means nothing. You're still trying to LUMP an entire religion under this umbrella you got.

Go some where and put a damn sheet over your head already...

The End,
cK

i.breathe.in
06-19-2008, 01:27 PM
bem have you noticed but uhhh you are an extremist. just the other side of the coin no better and no worse.

bem401
06-19-2008, 01:35 PM
Go some where and put a damn sheet over your head already...

The End,
cK

LOL. You and I have been on the same side of racial debates before. But if you tell me there are no extreme factions in Islam who mistreat women and hate America, then I stand corrected. BTW, its been my experience that when faced with an argument they can't win, people start with the name calling like you did.

I slurred neither you nor Islam in general. I know some very good Muslims and some very bad Christians, so you are wrong to go there.

bem401
06-19-2008, 01:38 PM
bem have you noticed but uhhh you are an extremist. just the other side of the coin no better and no worse.

I advocate torture if it means potentially saving American lives. Not torture for the shock value of it. I also believe it should be used as a last resort, but it has to remain an option.

Don't you folks realize you do nothing to win your argument by resorting to name-calling. Why not try giving me reasons why we shouldn't do whatever is necessary to get information that might save your and my life?

TheSexKitten
06-19-2008, 01:40 PM
Just FYI, the Taliban-esque repression of women have nothing to do with islam and have everything to do with an unfortunate fascist power shift (in the name of religion, of course).

The Qur'An is relatively respectful to women, and pretty similar to the Bible overall.

LadyLuck
06-19-2008, 01:40 PM
No, I was referring to how Muslims treat women in their culture, particularly those who do not conform to the ideal behavior. Being stoned is one of the punishments they dole out
</p>
That is like saying all Christians treat women the same way as say the followers of Warren Jeffs for example. It's just not logical or even realistic.

Lay off the Neocon "news" for awhile and open your eyes and mind to the big picture. I think you'll find the truth to be MUCH different place than portrayed by the rightwing think tanks and so called news services.

cinammonkisses
06-19-2008, 01:40 PM
LOL. You and I have been on the same side of racial debates before. But if you tell me there are no extreme factions in Islam who mistreat women and hate America, then I stand corrected.


When have we been on the same side of racial debates? Do you have some other Screen Name I dont know about?

How bout a round of applause...

You should stand corrected. You can find EXTREME factions in Christianity who ALSO mistreat women. But like I said..you continue to lump everyone under this umbrella you got. Read a book about being a muslim, or islam before you start preaching this "extreme" point of view that you call intelligent.

Ok, now I'm officially done :)

Kisses,
Ck

i.breathe.in
06-19-2008, 01:41 PM
Don't you folks realize you do nothing to win your argument by resorting to name-calling. Why not try giving me reasons why we shouldn't do whatever is necessary to get information that might save your and my life?

i didnt realize extremist was name calling.

you really should go back to the blue where you belong though, no one in pink is interested in what you have to say. though i imagine thats why your on pink, becuase no one likes what you have to say there either.

LadyLuck
06-19-2008, 01:46 PM
I advocate torture if it means potentially saving American lives. Not torture for the shock value of it. I also believe it should be used as a last resort, but it has to remain an option. l

Problem with your argument is that it doesn't work. Quite the opposite.

So then you're stuck with doing something that is:

a) immoral
b) illegal
c) ineffectual

So considering all that tell me again why it's a good idea?

Jenny
06-19-2008, 03:08 PM
LOL. You and I have been on the same side of racial debates before. But if you tell me there are no extreme factions in Islam who mistreat women and hate America,Well they are certainly alone in the world in that. I mean there are certainly no American men who disrespect and mistreat women and simultaneously hate muslims. So it's a good thing that both Americans and muslims of some indeterminate race are all being tortured. Yay torture. That will teach all the muslims of undetermined race and all the americans how to treat their strippers - or women in general. Because torture is all about the positive treatment of women. I mean, that is the point of it, really. Like we're not at all trying to redirect the issue to something you are hoping will cause a knee jerk reaction but has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue at hand. Because Americans (like you) would never do that. Only muslims (of indeterminate race) engage in that sort of propaganda.

bem401
06-20-2008, 05:49 AM
Problem with your argument is that it doesn't work. Quite the opposite.

So then you're stuck with doing something that is:

a) immoral
b) illegal
c) ineffectual

So considering all that tell me again why it's a good idea?

Quite the opposite? What was the latest count on Americans killed by terrorists on American soil since 9/11? I'm not saying that it was the result of interrogation techniques at Gitmo but the fact remains that America has been incident-free for nearly 7 years now.

This is not a war with Islam in general, but with those factions within Islam who would do us harm. The prisoners at Gitmo are, at the very least, suspected of being among those who would do us harm.

We are locked in a war with some nasty people. What should we do? Kill them with kindness?

jester214
06-20-2008, 11:26 AM
And I'm sure you would all be reasonable enough to feel the exact same way if enemy countries or combatants were torturing american soldiers, tourists or aid workers. After all; they weren't rounded up at the 7-11 for being American. They likely have information that would save their lives. Etc. And therefore it is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. I mean, why have we ever bothered with the international convention against torture or the international covenant of civil and political rights or the universal declaration of human rights at all? What reasonable person could think torture is wrong? Rights against it are a bad thing. I mean countries, and for that matter, terrorist cells, have to protect themselves and anyone who doesn't want to be tortured should know better than to be suspected for something - although they are never really told what that is.

Should American civilians begin to target another countries civilians through the use of terrorist acts, yeah, I'll tell them to go for it.

Again, it's pretty damn easy to sit on a message board (or anywhere) and decry things as being bad.

jester214
06-20-2008, 11:29 AM
I think it is a combo of not knowing any better and parroting Republican mantra.
At least he's not hateful like the comments Tauries makes - ie the camel thing.
Someone like Bem could probably be enlightened with experience and information. But first he'd have to be willing. Today he doesn't seem willing but people can and do change.

Did you teach him this stuff? LL uses phrases that I see straight out of the mouths of liberal political leaders and anti-bush ranters.

Reading "Bush is a bastard weekly" doesn't make you experienced or informed, as much as you would like it to.

LadyLuck
06-20-2008, 12:58 PM
Btw here are some CSPAN videos on this subject for all who are interested in watching and or learning more about the details.

Jenny
06-20-2008, 02:07 PM
Should American civilians begin to target another countries civilians through the use of terrorist acts, yeah, I'll tell them to go for it.

Again, it's pretty damn easy to sit on a message board (or anywhere) and decry things as being bad.
It's equally easy to sit on a message board (or anywhere) and paean things as "good".

Where should one be located, in your opinion, in order to have the best possible opinion?