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Tauries
07-24-2008, 08:36 AM
Tauries - I have no idea what you are talking about right now. Maybe you could clarify?

Although very tough, I will spare jokes about Canadian law school and literacy. My point was that teaching youth that their skin color, regardless of the color that it be, is cause for different treatment....ANY kind of different treatment be it preferential or disinclusion will cause "friction" that ultimately results in various manifestations in later life. While not quite sure how this devolved into a discussion on the fairness of Affirmitive Action, the reality is that ANY government sponsored discrimination based on race IS exactly that...government sponsored discrimination based on race.

Jenny
07-24-2008, 07:21 PM
Although very tough, I will spare jokes about Canadian law school and literacy.
Knock yourself out. I don't care about your opinion on either my or Canadian literacy.

My point was that teaching youth that their skin color, regardless of the color that it be, is cause for different treatment....ANY kind of different treatment be it preferential or disinclusion will cause "friction" that ultimately results in various manifestations in later life. While not quite sure how this devolved into a discussion on the fairness of Affirmitive Action, the reality is that ANY government sponsored discrimination based on race IS exactly that...government sponsored discrimination based on race.
Oh. Well. What an interesting point of view.

mr_punk
07-24-2008, 09:20 PM
Why is it that the Vietnamese can come here and within one generation be pretty much on an equal footing with whites? They came here from a war-torn country, unable to speak English, yet are doing very well.<double-take> LOL..that's like saying cricket and baseball is the same because they both use a ball and a bat.

TheSexKitten
07-25-2008, 11:36 AM
To Poole, maybe Vietnamese can come here and be on equal footing because they're stereotyped to be smart, unlike the unfortunate stereotypes blacks are faced with in AMerica? Or maybe that immigrants in general have more drive to succeed? Or also that in Vietnamese primary schools and culture, school is an absolute TOP priority and no one gets academically babied?

xdamage
07-25-2008, 11:54 AM
....Or maybe that immigrants in general have more drive to succeed? Or also that in Vietnamese primary schools and culture, school is an absolute TOP priority and no one gets academically babied?

Kind of ties in with what I wrote above.

It sure looks to me like most of us want to screw off during our younger years at school. For most of us, if we don't have a parent (or better two of them) pushing us to work hard it at, we won't. After all for most of us, doing well in school is "work". It is not particularly fun. It is not even clear why we have to learn the majority of what we learn. But there is a long term benefit if we do well, and a long term cost if we do poorly. It stacks the odds in our favor or against. And in a sense, it is like exercise.

We all know that physical exercise is hard to do. We'd rather lay around and lounge. To do it requires will power, motivation, and commitment. There is a long term pay off of course (improved health and looks) and one more thing... the more often we do it, the easier it becomes in the sense that we train our bodies and brains to accept the stress of it, to cope with it.

It is the same with learning. Those who work hard at it not only earn a grade, but develop an ability to cope with mental stresses that are applicable to most jobs. Those who do not already mark themselves as incapable.

The stereotype about Asian families pushing their kids hard to succeed in elementary school - there is definitely a lot of truth to it. And it does definitely pay off for them in practical terms when they reach adulthood.

So the question is, even if it is not PC, statistically, is there a problem with black parents not doing enough to teach their own kids to cope with the stress, to do well in school, to push themselves mentally while they are young? Because if not, they are stacking the odds against themselves.

lestat1
07-25-2008, 03:35 PM
I already said - I think your logic is faulty because you've constructed a reason that other races should be getting assistance (higher rates of poverty) and then arguing that it is not logical to give them that assistance based on race based on that construction.

This is a new level of epic fail for me. Sure there's going to be miscommunication, especially on the Internet, but to have my main point and the center of my entire position be summarized back to me as the complete opposite of what it actually is, is a first.

Not that I'd attempt to crawl out of a hole of miscommunication this deep, but could you quote what I wrote that led you here? I'd like to know for next time where I went so horribly wrong. Epic fail.

Poole
07-26-2008, 03:50 AM
To Poole, maybe Vietnamese can come here and be on equal footing because they're stereotyped to be smart, unlike the unfortunate stereotypes blacks are faced with in AMerica? Or maybe that immigrants in general have more drive to succeed? Or also that in Vietnamese primary schools and culture, school is an absolute TOP priority and no one gets academically babied?

Considering that blacks were slaves in this country, who should have more drive and motivation to succeed than blacks? What someone is "stereotyped" as has nothing to do with reality. Excuses, excuses, excuses, for perpetual black failure.

mr_punk
07-26-2008, 05:33 AM
Considering that blacks were slaves in this country, who should have more drive and motivation to succeed than blacks? What someone is "stereotyped" as has nothing to do with reality. Excuses, excuses, excuses, for perpetual black failure.<double-take> LOL...true. it's like your insistence on equating two different groups of people who came here under entirely different circumstances and have entirely different historical experiences in this country.

xdamage
07-26-2008, 07:27 AM
Considering that blacks were slaves in this country, who should have more drive and motivation to succeed than blacks? What someone is "stereotyped" as has nothing to do with reality. Excuses, excuses, excuses, for perpetual black failure.

I don't think drive and motivation are inherent human values. I think they are most often learned, and mostly from our parents. I think we have an inherent drive to "want" wealth, but not an inherent drive to want to work, to want stress, to want to save, to want to invest for payoffs far into the future. We want the ends, but not the means associated with wealth.

It is hard to say how much damage slavery did to the continuity of family among black people, and the values black families (such as they were as slaves) passed on to their children. Values and perceptions that are then passed on again and again to their own children.

Poole
07-26-2008, 01:51 PM
<double-take> LOL...true. it's like your insistence on equating two different groups of people who came here under entirely different circumstances and have entirely different historical experiences in this country.

I'm merely going by the logic behind affirmative action that all groups of people are exactly equal and that only institutionalized racism (and/or the legacy of institutionalized racism) keeps them from being so economically. Weren't Orientals historically also subjected to hard-core racism in the U.S. (including Japanese being forced into concentration camps in WWII), yet they seem to be doing just fine now. If we have one hundred more years of affirmative action and blacks are still lagging behind whites as they are today after 40 years of affirmative action, will slavery still be the reason? Is there ever a point at which blacks themselves can be at fault for their collective plight or is it always Whitey's fault?

The Snark
07-26-2008, 03:48 PM
^^
Dude, just come out and say it. Stop pussyfooting around the issue and say what you really think: that blacks are an inferior order of human beings.

When it comes to race, a lot of white Americans remind me of an abusive husband who brutalizes his wife, then gets mad at her when she leaves blood stains on the furniture.

TheSexKitten
07-26-2008, 03:52 PM
^^
When it comes to race, a lot of white Americans remind me of an abusive husband who brutalizes his wife, then gets mad at her when she leaves blood stains on the furniture.

Agreed.

mr_punk
07-26-2008, 04:40 PM
I'm merely going by the logic behind affirmative action that all groups of people are exactly equal and that only institutionalized racism (and/or the legacy of institutionalized racism) keeps them from being so economically.no, it's more like you're desperately grasping at straws to prove a point.

Weren't Orientals historically also subjected to hard-core racism in the U.S. (including Japanese being forced into concentration camps in WWII), yet they seem to be doing just fine now.<double-take> ROTFLMAO..ok, i haven't seen this level of sheer ignorance, historical or otherwise on the entire internet in a couple of days. you should be proud. it's quite an accomplishment. first of all, it was called an internment camp not a concentration camp. sure, it was no picnic, but Japanese-Americans were not being slaughtered like Jews in Dachau.

secondly, you're still committing the same error. the circumstances are not equivalent. for example, if you want to talk about hard-core racism. well, let's talk about jim crow laws or lynchings. seriously, you'll have an difficult time trying to compare the history of any of your "uber" ethnic groups with as long, bitter and enduring legacy in the U.S. than AA.

If we have one hundred more years of affirmative action and blacks are still lagging behind whites as they are today after 40 years of affirmative action, will slavery still be the reason? Is there ever a point at which blacks themselves can be at fault for their collective plight or is it always Whitey's fault?well, to quote the immortal Lois Griffin: "It's like I always tell the kids, "A quitter never wins," and "Don't trust Whitey."

Poole
07-26-2008, 04:50 PM
^^
Dude, just come out and say it. Stop pussyfooting around the issue and say what you really think: that blacks are an inferior order of human beings.



I don't believe that; but I do believe there are differences between races, both good and bad, that we have to pretend don't exist, which is why the party line is that affirmative action is bound to work. . . eventually.

Fact is, you can say anything negative about white people you want, and nobody will call you racist. But say something negative about black people and the R-word is instantly invoked, designed to put a halt to any rational exchange of views that aren't politically correct.

It goes back to what I said originally, there needs to be an open and honest conversation on racial issues instead of it always being from a white-guilt or whites are responsible mode.

The fact of the matter is that no people in history have done as much as American whites to try and help blacks, and to try and make up for past wrongs. Seriously, can you name any other times a majority race has institutionalized discrimination against itself to help one less well off?

Slavery was shameful, and so are any laws or systems that define or treat one group of people as inferior to another. Most whites (myself included) genuinely want to see black people do well. But all too often it seems that what is returned is a lot of anger and even hatred toward people who don't deserve it. The attitude that only whites can be racist is incredibly racist. Everyone has feelings, and to be singled out and disliked because of one's race hurts. The fact that whites on average are doing better economically than blacks doesn't make hatred of whites okay. Racism is a two-way street and racial issues need to be addressed openly even if feelings sometimes get hurt, or the problems are only going to get worse.

Poole
07-26-2008, 05:03 PM
<double-take> ROTFLMAO..

Dude, you really need to watch your neck. All those double-takes you've been doing recently can result in injury. And I hope you're not alone when engaging in these repeated bouts of hysterical laughter while rolling around on the floor, if so it's pretty creepy.

mr_punk
07-26-2008, 05:33 PM
Dude, you really need to watch your neck. All those double-takes you've been doing recently can result in injury.true, and it's all thanks to you. you're funnier than 10 PLs armed with teddy bears in a sc on Valentine's Day. sorry, but it can't be helped. why, i even laugh at the very prospect of you reaching a new level of ignorance.

Fact is, you can say anything negative about white people you want, and nobody will call you racist. But say something negative about black people and the R-word is instantly invoked, designed to put a halt to any rational exchange of views that aren't politically correct.rational? surely, you're not speaking of those those irrational, incomparable examples you cited as an example of a rational exchange of views on your part? LOL..actually, i'm kinda hoping that is the case.

I don't believe that; but I do believe there are differences between races, both good and bad, that we have to pretend don't exist, <snip>please expound. i get the feeling this is going to be quite entertaining. LOL..see? i told you it couldn't be helped.

xdamage
07-26-2008, 06:48 PM
If we have one hundred more years of affirmative action and blacks are still lagging behind whites as they are today after 40 years of affirmative action, will slavery still be the reason? Is there ever a point at which blacks themselves can be at fault for their collective plight or is it always Whitey's fault?

40 years really isn't that long on a historical scale. 100 also, not really. I don't think it makes sense to set an arbitrary time line for AA. I do think it makes sense to try and set some objective goals (which hasn't been done well).

The problem is that we are social beings. We learn so much from those who raise us, our family and parents. You really can think of society and families as meta-organisms that grow and learn, and pass on values and beliefs long past the life of the individual.

It's not super shocking that slavery dramatically disrupted the progress they had made as a society, progress made as families... 40 years isn't even one person's average life time. It seems premature to be throwing in the towel and declaring it a sure failure or to decide that black people are doing poorly because of some inherent flaws at this point in time. I imagine if it over the next many decades it continues more people will begin to suggest the same, but 40 years... it's really not that long on a historical scale.

Poole
07-26-2008, 09:24 PM
rational? surely, you're not speaking of those those irrational, incomparable examples you cited as an example of a rational exchange of views on your part? LOL..actually, i'm kinda hoping that is the case.
please expound. i get the feeling this is going to be quite entertaining. LOL..see? i told you it couldn't be helped.

You're one silly boy. Yes, please excuse my irrationality, everyone knows all races are exactly alike. Everyone knows whites are completely to blame for any and all black underachieving and always will be. In fact some of my best friends are Negroes. Some of my best friends are Negroes. Some of my best friends are Negroes. . .

You can go back to your maniacal, rolling on the floor, uncontrollable laughing jags and neck-twisting doubletakes now. I'm glad my posts bring such comic relief into your life.

Poole
07-26-2008, 09:33 PM
Alright, first of all, that first paragraph is just factually wrong, or at least skewed.

Second of all, as the majority, whites

...wait, gimme a couple seconds... *slams head agains wall*

K, anyway... as the majority, whites have the power. Simple. As. That. In China, Chinese have the power. In Pakistan, Pakis have the power.

By power, I mean the subconscious advantage of almost everyone else not only looking like you, but identifying with you and your culture. When you go to get an apartment, apply for a job, and run for government office, it's the simple truth that you will have more people who will subconsciously relate to you, and thus trust you. This is a natural human phenomenon. We associate with those who look and behave like ourselves.

However, that example is leaving out that tiny little issue of beating blacks down both literally and metaphorically for hundreds of years. White men were able to vote since the birth of the nation, but black men have only been able to participate in this government that most of their ancestors did not choose for a little over a hundred years.

Only since the 1960's-70's or so has there really been any conscious social effort to effect change in the way blacks are perceived and treated by a white society. Yeah, I've been the subject of racism. I've felt it from Filipinos, Afghanis, blacks, and Vietnamese. Hey, it sucks and I don't deserve it, and I will say so as those issues arise. You know what though? Oh fucking well, big deal. Shit happens. At least I will never have to worry about some of the much bigger issues that minorities are faced with.

You can rant on all you want about "white guilt" but I prefer to look at the facts of the matter and assess the situation from both sides of the table.

You say white guilt, I say white whining. If you actually listened to some black people IRL, as equals, you might hear some stories that would change your insistence that racism against AA's is a dead issue in this country.

How does the average white person in this country have power? The average white person has no more power and privilege than the average non-white person. As I mentioned before, the majority of the poor in this country are white. Blacks and hispanics are more likely to be poor on a proportional basis, but there's a helluva lot of poor white people too. They have no power and no access to it.

I agree that people naturally feel more comfortable with those that look like themselves. Even if one concedes that this is a bad thing, which I don't, how do you ever eliminate such a strong and natural empathy? Forcibly reprogram people, or just eventually eliminate whites altogether through immigration policies?

Blacks were screwed over for hundreds of years. But many if not most people right now are on the short end of the stick. You're never going to force people to conform to an opinion about other people. Oh, they can pretend, but that doesn't mean they genuinely feel it.

What might actually be effective is for people of different backgrounds to unite against the Powers That Be. They're the ones who have a lot to answer for. The white masses have no more to do with formulating foreign, social and economic policy than anyone else. Encouraging group politics and racial resentments is merely a divide and conquer tactic that keeps the current power structure on top while the rest fight amongst themselves.

mr_punk
07-27-2008, 06:17 AM
40 years really isn't that long on a historical scale. 100 also, not really.shhh...don't try to reason with this guy. he's on a roll. ironically, he's making a fine argument for AA, albeit unwittingly. besides, in his world, 40 years and 1000 years would proabably be an equivalent amount of time.

You're one silly boy. Yes, please excuse my irrationality, everyone knows all races are exactly alike.are you implying they aren't? IIRC, didn't you just attempt to equate AA with Japanese Americans and Vietnamese immigrants? now, you're saying that isn't the case? how confusing, but not unexpected considering the source.

You can go back to your maniacal, rolling on the floor, uncontrollable laughing jags and neck-twisting doubletakes now. I'm glad my posts bring such comic relief into your life.does this mean you're not going to expound on the differences between the races? c'mon, i was really looking forward to it.

Casual Observer
07-29-2008, 05:00 AM
K, anyway... as the majority, whites have the power. Simple. As. That. In China, Chinese have the power. In Pakistan, Pakis have the power.

That's a gross oversimplification of ethnic groups and ethnic relations in both Pakistan and China; just ask the Hui Chinese how much power they have in their own nation. China has at least 55 distinct ethnic groups. You're telling me they all have the power?

This isn't a straw-man argument; it's to point out the fallacy that one's whiteness is a guarantee of power and privilege, convenient as it may be to ignore the vast differences in socio-economic and cultural norms within the "white" community, at least for the purposes of maintaining the facade of the Great White Conspiracy.

xdamage
07-29-2008, 05:32 AM
I agree that people naturally feel more comfortable with those that look like themselves. Even if one concedes that this is a bad thing, which I don't, how do you ever eliminate such a strong and natural empathy? Forcibly reprogram people,...?

Much like our societies on-going effort to curb crimes of passion, the goal is not to eliminate, but to curb undesirable behavior. Even though evolutionary-biologists are increasingly showing that aggression, murder, etc., are part of our human nature, that doesn't mean we give up and just let individuals do whatever they want to others.

The thing is even aggression and murder may well have their place in history. They may well have served a purpose in a different time and place. For that matter we could argue they still do. Preferring those who look like us may be no more complex then the drives that causes us to side with our kin before we side with others, but even so...

I'm all in favor of understanding our human tendencies at a genetic level, and it could well be that we have a strong tendency to side with those who look like us, but ... that does not mean we are prisoners of it. We can use our intellect to change our own nature. Maybe not 100% eliminate it, but to curb and reshape it. That is one of the best things about have intellects. It gives us the power, if we choose to use it, to knowingly alter the course of history.

Poole
07-29-2008, 04:53 PM
Much like our societies on-going effort to curb crimes of passion, the goal is not to eliminate, but to curb undesirable behavior. Even though evolutionary-biologists are increasingly showing that aggression, murder, etc., are part of our human nature, that doesn't mean we give up and just let individuals do whatever they want to others.

The thing is even aggression and murder may well have their place in history. They may well have served a purpose in a different time and place. For that matter we could argue they still do. Preferring those who look like us may be no more complex then the drives that causes us to side with our kin before we side with others, but even so...

I'm all in favor of understanding our human tendencies at a genetic level, and it could well be that we have a strong tendency to side with those who look like us, but ... that does not mean we are prisoners of it. We can use our intellect to change our own nature. Maybe not 100% eliminate it, but to curb and reshape it. That is one of the best things about have intellects. It gives us the power, if we choose to use it, to knowingly alter the course of history.

I agree with that. To the extent that individuals have pride in their background they should also have respect for those that are different and always endeavor to treat them as fairly as possible (the Golden Rule).

When a race is singled out for institutionalized unfair treatment, then the remedy is to punish those individuals responsible for it, not an entire race or ethnic group. Collectively punishing whites for past wrongs is patently unfair, especially when the vast majority of whites, like the vast majority of everyone else, obviously have no power. Also, the vast majority of whites are not interested in "supremacy" or engaging in any of the kinds of racism that are obviously so counterproductive. Tit for tat racism and group animosities only benefit the powers that be.

The U.S. has a robber baron class that is plundering the economy. They are mostly but not exclusively white, but they are a minute percentage of the population. Fixing our economic and social problems begins with changing the system and those who control it.

xdamage
07-29-2008, 05:10 PM
^^^

I guess I see a balancing act at play.

Somehow we need to address the problems of unfair treatment, and damage done to the black community (due to slavery), without tipping the scales to a reverse extreme, one in which all evils are blaimed on whites, and some imagined world-wide supremacy is believed in (mostly by ignoring history in the rest of the world).


This is because fundamentally people are, well, not very smart, and at the heart of racism is people.

People who "want more". That is the heart of fairness. We all want more. How to have a system where wealth is "fairly" distributed? People want more, a bigger share of the pie. That is all there is to that and it is fine and good.

But people are not inherently smart. Their nature is to want to take very complex problems, and reduce it to auto-pilot simplicities, including the simplicity of simply blaiming all of the worlds wrongs on another race.

Therefore when a black person says "I can't be racist" - BZZZZZZTTT WRONG! You can. I don't trust you either. I don't trust you anymore then I trust white people, yellow skinned people, or any other differentiator, because I know that we are all capable of the same behaviors in large groups, and I don't trust any of us.

This is where society can come into play. It is possible to make laws that point us in the direction of rising above individual human nature. Point a way toward fairness. It won't be perfect, for sure, because that too is impossible, but it is far better then making no effort at all because that is reality we live in and always will. An imperfect one where we are either fighting to make it better, or giving up and effectively dying.

White people are not at the core of all evils. People of all races and sexes are (but fortunately, also it is people who are at the core all progress too, so it balances out, in a way).

Miss_Luscious
07-31-2008, 05:29 PM
This came up in member boards earlier this year so I'll post what I posted back then:

To put it simply (and this is how the terms are generally/commonly used):

White Pride - "We are great because we are white. Everyone else is inferior"

Black Pride - "We are great and we are black. We are just as good as everyone else."

Also, black Americans really shouldn't be called African Americans. A person who has immigrated form Africa (even a white South African) is and African American. I've never been to Africa, don't have any family in Africa and because I'm all mixed up anyway, I probaly wouldn't ba accepted as an African if I went there. I don't want to be called african American. If you have to put me is some kind of catecory and I have to choose just one race I guess I'm black but really I'm just an American mutt. Just like most of us. Why can't we all just be Americans who happen to have different skin tones?

Luckily, the peole who have put the most empahsis on race are dying out and people in my generation and younger don't really care for the most part.

PS - this is just a general pet peeve but please please please stop using the term "black culture". I'm not sure exactly what it is but I'm tired of having to answer for it/to it and I'm pretty sure I don't subscribe to it.

PPS - BET is some shit and it needs to be off the air. It's an insult to call it Black Entertainment when it doesn't entertaine (and actually offends) the majority of black people I know.

PPPS - I'm starting to like blue better that pink. Those women are....women.

PPPPS - Nope I don't spell check and I type fast so 'scuse the typos.

piepie
08-08-2008, 11:45 PM
i have been frustrated with racism. it has played out a lot in my life. in reading more about quantum physics i feel i need to again adjust my outlook. i was raised in the country in the northern farm country. i've found myself in the dirty south now for almost half my life.

im too tired to make sense.

my skin is pale my child's is not. most of my neighbors skins are darker than mine. really all i can say is people should spend more time out of their comfort zones. go somewhere where you will be the only ,or the vast minority. stretch you lil minds laugh and eat food with people that don't look like you. or make as much money as you. or who make more. uplift the people around you with the generosity of you spirit.

i like the hood even as a bright ass snowbunny because i get respect. people appreciate that i express the contents of my heart everyday. she is right there to let everyone know how i feel. my daughter. for any flack i do get : big ups. people are always gonna hate. we are by nature competitive. if i cannot immediately correct anothers treatment of me from my own mouth then i am responsible for my feelings.

black people taught me to be stronger. told me to have pride in myself. told me i am on the right path.people of all colors have but my black sisters have been keeping me uplifted so much recently. i am grateful for any experience in my life where people are speaking positively and being supportive. demonstrating their open minds.

laughter and jokes about it are good. because sometimes if i don't i'll cry. and i would so much rather be positive. my outside environment is too thick with conflict not to be. new thing i am trying.

hmm.. go eat some food with a bunch of people that don't look anything like you. its a good thing to challenge that unease in your gut.

i should be sleeping. good thought provoking thread. thanks mr. genwar.

it is a spiritual war that is being waged against all human beings. as long as we are envious or wish ill upon ,or desire less than success for those around us; we are ill ourselves.

peace ya'll.

Perry
08-15-2008, 11:26 PM
Okay, I'm tipsy so I'm going to stop ranting. As for the OP, Americans in that letter's essense are hard to come by. We've only been a country for around for around 230 years. That's roughly 7 generations. Almost every American can still trace their roots to a different continent. So, "white" isn't really an estabilished race. That chain letter isn't as controversial when you say, "I'm Irish/German/French/Russian and I'm proud..."