PDA

View Full Version : Violent attitudes while giving an LD



Pages : [1] 2

Corey
07-18-2008, 12:36 PM
First off, I work in a bikini bar in which we give dances along a very long and narrow couch. We have no CR.

I understand the idea of a custy trying to get as much out of an LD as possible. I'm not new at this. I am used to custies trying to feel me up, kiss me, trying to whip his boy out,et.

But what I don't understand is the violence behind the sexual desire!

My first LD of the week last Wed. had me traumatized. It was late in the afternoon, pretty early, and as I was starting to give my first LD, this custy who was WAY bigger than me, held me down and forced my panties aside and just tried to slam his fingers up there!! Security is not that abundant at this time of day and our club is huge and dark.

I told him he was hurting me and he relented a bit, but on the second LD, practically pulled my panties off and gave me a wedgy and it really HURT!!

I ended the dance, of course. But he couldn't understand why, apparently.

Unfortunately, for the rest of my night, the others weren't much better, but at least they weren't violent.

Why the violence? Can any of you guys shed light on this subject? Would you ever admit to having behaved like this?

Btw, only one of them knew me, but he was the least offensive. So the violent guy didn't knew me well and had no reason to slight me like that.

Dance Fan
07-18-2008, 01:18 PM
Sorry, I can't shed any light on this kind of behavior. Maybe I'm weird but I act in a strip club like I do anywhere else. I wouldn't touch or grab a woman outside of a club and have never done that (or wouldn'tdo that) in a club. During a LD my hands sit off to the side and never come up. In a sexual/romantic situation my hands are in use but a LD is a fantasy situation so the hands don't get to play.

As for the whole violence thing I really believe many men just don't like women.

Jenny
07-18-2008, 03:54 PM
Corey - not all guys are very nice. Asking guys who don't like to hurt you why other guys do or are willing to is sort of like asking you why some women smother their babies at birth. I mean, you probably really don't know. And there is, unfortunately, a fairly high number of guys - even guys that wouldn't actually hurt you - think that touching us doesn't really count.

As psychologically unhealthy as it may sound, it is best to just dissociate. I mean, you will drive yourself into a reclusive madwoman if you try to reconcile the things some guys will do to you with just guys in general.

yoda57us
07-18-2008, 04:36 PM
I have no logical explanation other than blatant misogyny among some members of the male population. There are a lot of angry men out there and I'm not making excuses for them.

It sickens me and I know girls who have had the same thing happen to them. Everything from biting and hitting to forcing digits into places where they don't belong.

Taco Goblin
07-18-2008, 06:11 PM
Yup.. a lot of guys are just plain assholes. And a lot of comes down to the bully syndrome. Why do most bullies do it? Because they can. Makes 'em feel powerful. Eccchh.. makes me ill.

But I gotta say.. and I don't mean to be callous.. as disturbing as the guy's actions were.. I nearly fell out of my chair when I read

"... but on the second LD.."

The SECOND?!? Why the hell would you allow that to progress to a second lapdance?!?

Jenny
07-18-2008, 06:33 PM
^^
Because you get used to a certain amount of abuse. Even "nice guys" do it. I mean, guys here wouldn't (hopefully) try to hurt a dancer, but how many of them do you think advocate a "try shoving your fingers up there and see if she minds" attitude - most of them. I mean, we have to say "No" and "Stop That" quite a lot.

hockeybobby
07-18-2008, 07:28 PM
That sucks Corey. Some people just don't know how to behave...or they don't care. It's why we have jails....and tailgate parties.

yoda57us
07-18-2008, 07:32 PM
Why the hell would you allow that to progress to a second lapdance?!?


^^
Because you get used to a certain amount of abuse. Even "nice guys" do it. I mean, guys here wouldn't (hopefully) try to hurt a dancer, but how many of them do you think advocate a "try shoving your fingers up there and see if she minds" attitude - most of them. I mean, we have to say "No" and "Stop That" quite a lot.

Yep, pretty much...

When my ATF started dancing she worked at a no contact club in CT and later Mass and did pretty well. Once every couple of months she used to go down to GoGo Rama in New Jersey to work for a week. I don't know what it's like now but back then a girl would basically sit on a stool and allow herself to get groped by guys who had to take a number and wait in line for the privilege. After a week of that she basically didn't want any man near her for a few days...

Why you ask? For the money, why else?. It is part of the job. If a dancer stopped at one dance every time a guy tried to take liberties she would have a lot of very bad nights revenue-wise.

xdamage
07-18-2008, 07:56 PM
Yea, unfortunately it is a bit like asking us to explain the minds of a sociopath.

We have their explanation and we can try to take some guesses about what is going on in their heads, one human to another, but this is the way it is.

Some have stronger violent tendencies then others for various reasons, and we can only very vaguely relate.

Funny thing is I've asked women do you ever have violent fantasies, and sometimes they do too, but in reality I think most people really don't have any desire to actually go through with them. Sort of like watching war on news, from a good distance in a warm comfy safe spot it's vaguely fascinating, but few of us actually want anything to do with it for real. But then every so often you get the person who really really wants to be there. Hmmm.

Taco Goblin
07-19-2008, 01:12 AM
^^
Because you get used to a certain amount of abuse. Even "nice guys" do it. I mean, guys here wouldn't (hopefully) try to hurt a dancer, but how many of them do you think advocate a "try shoving your fingers up there and see if she minds" attitude - most of them. I mean, we have to say "No" and "Stop That" quite a lot.

I certainly understand there's an amount of say, jockeying for position, that goes on.. that age old cat and mouse dance.. but when that's coupled with an obvious violent attitude??? Dance should stop right there, money or no, and a bouncer pulled over to kick some sense into his ass!

Corey
07-19-2008, 03:35 AM
The reason I went for dance #2 is because I told him he was hurting me during the first one, so he backed off. It wasn't until a minute into the second one that he came on even stronger.

I had never had this happen to me before and I have been dancing for a long time.

I think the fact that he did it because he could explains it best.

I just wish he was a lot smaller. He was all the more intimidating because of his size and strength.

I should be more jaded and unaffected, I suppose. But that's not me. I have worked with some older dancers that always have frowns on their faces and never seem to be happy. I don't want to become one of them.

Jenny
07-19-2008, 05:35 AM
I certainly understand there's an amount of say, jockeying for position, that goes on.. that age old cat and mouse dance.. but when that's coupled with an obvious violent attitude??? Dance should stop right there, money or no, and a bouncer pulled over to kick some sense into his ass!Thanks for letting us know. Seriously - this seems like kind of a silly question to me. The reason one would continue the dance is because one obviously thinks that one has the situation under control and can manage it. Why do you think we would carry on with the dance? Because we want to be hurt? It's because we cannot always see how things will escalate. It kind of seems like you are uncomfortable with the idea of dancers being hurt by customers and are trying to make it her own fault.

Docido
07-19-2008, 05:50 AM
We could write entire essays on why some guys do this. Maybe it's objectification, maybe it's the old virgin/whore syndrome, or maybe they're just assholes? What ever it is, they deserve stilettos in the groin.

DB Cooper
07-19-2008, 06:32 AM
It's usually a control issue. Men who feel they have no power or control over their lives need to exert control and show their dominance in some way. You're a convenient target. Girlfriends and spouses are targets too. No excuse for it. I'm sorry it happened to you. Next time plant your heel in his balls and walk away.

Taco Goblin
07-19-2008, 10:19 AM
Thanks for letting us know. Seriously - this seems like kind of a silly question to me. The reason one would continue the dance is because one obviously thinks that one has the situation under control and can manage it. Why do you think we would carry on with the dance? Because we want to be hurt? It's because we cannot always see how things will escalate. It kind of seems like you are uncomfortable with the idea of dancers being hurt by customers and are trying to make it her own fault.

No Jenny, and thanks for being your typical self.

I'm not trying to make it her fault in the least. I'm uncomfortable with women being hurt in general, particularly by asshole men. So don't make more of it than it is for once PLEASE.

Geezus christ that comment offended me. You're a real peach sometimes J.

not_a_custy
07-19-2008, 10:50 AM
Corey, I'm sorry this happened to you. I wonder if you may have to really go through your mental conditioning and harden yourself as to what you will accept
and what you won't. Not my place to say where you draw the line but having your mind made up before you ever find yourself in the situation will maybe help you to react and kick his ass before it escalates. Combat conditioning for dancers?

mr_punk
07-19-2008, 11:32 AM
Why the violence? Can any of you guys shed light on this subject? Would you ever admit to having behaved like this?LOL...oh, why ask why? for example, i like to sink my teeth into a stripper's ass. hopefully, i won't leave any bruises. why? well, my sig file pretty much covers it.

Btw, only one of them knew me, but he was the least offensive. So the violent guy didn't knew me well and had no reason to slight me like that.isn't that how it often works? two customers can do the exact same thing, but whether or not the action is perceived as offensive or not as offensive is determined by familiarity.

I had never had this happen to me before and I have been dancing for a long time.never? lucky.

Jenny
07-19-2008, 11:43 AM
Sorry. That's what it seemed like to me. A question like "Well why didn't you stop before?" seems sort of related to "Well, what were you wearing?" "Why were you at a bar by yourself?" etc.

And I actually thought I was being pretty nice about it. Personally I'm very uncomfortable with dancers being hurt and always instinctively look for a reason it is her fault; I'm just also pretty cognizant that is what I'm doing and generally stop myself before I get to the verbal "Why didn't you" part. I think you might just be defensive. You're welcome for being myself - I would say "Thank you for being a stereotypical guy" but that would be sexist. :)

No Jenny, and thanks for being your typical self.

I'm not trying to make it her fault in the least. I'm uncomfortable with women being hurt in general, particularly by asshole men. So don't make more of it than it is for once PLEASE.

Geezus christ that comment offended me. You're a real peach sometimes J.

bsteve
07-19-2008, 12:04 PM
Sorry. That's what it seemed like to me. A question like "Well why didn't you stop before?" seems sort of related to "Well, what were you wearing?" "Why were you at a bar by yourself?" etc.

And I actually thought I was being pretty nice about it. Personally I'm very uncomfortable with dancers being hurt and always instinctively look for a reason it is her fault; I'm just also pretty cognizant that is what I'm doing and generally stop myself before I get to the verbal "Why didn't you" part. I think you might just be defensive. You're welcome for being myself - I would say "Thank you for being a stereotypical guy" but that would be sexist. :)

Ouch, Jenny. :'(

I understand what you are saying, but I think that you and Taco Goblin are talking about two different things.

There is no question that the a-hole who abused Corey is at fault for the situation. You know it, Taco Goblin knows it, I know it. There is no reason to dwell on that issue. I think that we all agree that it is not Corey's fault.

If I read Taco Goblin correctly, his question is: as a victim, what should Corey do? I don't think that he questions her behavior in getting into the situation, but rather her behavior after she became a victim.

We all become a victim of some action or another. It is bad. But unfortunately, that is life. We have to learn how to deal with it. What do you recommend?

Jenny
07-19-2008, 12:23 PM
Hey - I said "stereotypical" not "typical". There is no need for teary smilies.

I'm not sure I agree. I mean, I don't think anyone is absolving the guy from hurting her, but I think the focus on "what she should have done/didn't do/did do" does speak to a reapportioning of responsibility. As for what I would suggest - I already suggested - disassociate. Although - strictly she didn't ask for suggestions on her behaviour. She asked for insight on his. She seems to feel that she handled her situation the best it could be handled (which she very likely did - it is just not possible for us to always anticipate the way these things escalate); so what do you think it means that you and I and TG turn around and focus on what she did wrong where everyone else just said "wow, that sucks, and he sucks"?

xdamage
07-19-2008, 01:18 PM
I'm always reminded on SW that so often a very common difference between men and women is apparent over and over. Others have commented on it too. So often when women* post with a problem, other women offer emotional support while other men offer solutions (either to fix the problem or prevent a re-occurrence).

Oh there are plenty of exceptions to be sure, but given the number of people who have posted they see the same pattern I think there is something to it.

But the negative is men can be seen (by women) as cold-hearted or sinister for moving so swiftly to solution-oriented think, while women can be seen (by men) as victim-like for not talking sooner (or with more interest) about solutions.

p.s. I'm not yet sure if the same applies entirely in reverse. When men post a problem other men tend to discuss solutions, but the jury is still out in my mind if women tend to support him emotionally or also tend to move towards solution oriented think. I've always had the distinct sense that men who dwell too long on emotions are, on some level, considered to be wusses, by other men and other women. Hmmm...

Corey
07-19-2008, 01:22 PM
I do appreciate all the feedback, thanks.

Mr. Punk- yes, I have had guys keep trying to feel me up and try to get away with whipping their game boy out....but not with the violence behind the action.

So, when I said this had never happened to me before, I am referring to the violence; being held down against my will, my clothes practically torn off and the digits forcefully inserted.

I have spoke my mind with bad custies before, but this guy scared the crap outta me.

yoda57us
07-19-2008, 01:52 PM
I'm always reminded on SW that so often a very common difference between men and women is apparent over and over. Others have commented on it too. So often when women* post with a problem, other women offer emotional support while other men offer solutions (either to fix the problem or prevent a re-occurrence).


Well, men are "fixers" by nature.

I have seen my own attitudes on the dynamic that exists between customers and dancers change quite a bit over the years. The reason for the change has everything to do with developing long term friendships with women in the sex industry and realizing that they KNOW what they are getting into most of the time. Honestly, I don't react with any less internal outrage when a fav tells me that some jerk pinched her so hard that it left a mark on her or tried to finger her now than I did ten years ago. The difference is now I let her talk about it until she is done talking about it rather than freaking out and telling her she should quit, get out of dancing, change clubs or some other "solution" that really isn't viable.

FBR
07-19-2008, 03:28 PM
isn't that how it often works? two customers can do the exact same thing, but whether or not the action is perceived as offensive or not as offensive is determined by familiarity.

There is truth in what Mr P says. I've seen it dozens of times and to be honest I have bumped against the limits myself on occasion. Dancers can handle the run of the mill dude that tries to cop an extra feel. She might cut him some slack depending if he is a regular who has given her a lot of money over time vs a new guy off the street...her call. However, I draw the line on what Corey painfully described regarding this physically intimidating customer.


I have spoke my mind with bad custies before, but this guy scared the crap outta me.

Physically coercing extra mileage vs negotiating the price of that same mileage in a non-threatening way for an agreed upon amount of money are two different beasts. I believe most customers (fortunately) get that.

FBR

bsteve
07-19-2008, 05:52 PM
I'm always reminded on SW that so often a very common difference between men and women is apparent over and over. Others have commented on it too. So often when women* post with a problem, other women offer emotional support while other men offer solutions (either to fix the problem or prevent a re-occurrence).


Yes, you are so right.

My wife and I used to get into fights when she complained about her long hard day, and I offered suggestions. We could not figure out why on Earth we got into such fights. We read a couple of books on relationships (Gray's Mars/Venus, Harley's HNHN) and came to the same conclusion as xdamage: when a woman is unloading, guy's job is to STFU and listen.

doc-catfish
07-19-2008, 06:06 PM
I'm kind of surprised we're two pages into this thread and nobody has said the 'R' word yet, or termed what happened here as sexual assault, almost as if we're all trying to suggest that its something lesser considering the circumstances. Is it?
:shrug:


We could write entire essays on why some guys do this.
If there's a common theme with these sort of guys:

1. They treat women in that manner because that's unfortunately how they were taught by example.

2. All the way back to childhood, nobody ever had the courage to put them in their place and show them right from wrong. In my experience, such people generally don't get along well with men either.

mr_punk
07-19-2008, 07:32 PM
Mr. Punk- yes, I have had guys keep trying to feel me up and try to get away with whipping their game boy out....but not with the violence behind the action. So, when I said this had never happened to me before, I am referring to the violence; being held down against my will, my clothes practically torn off and the digits forcefully inserted.ok. thanks for the clarification.

I'm kind of surprised we're two pages into this thread and nobody has said the 'R' word yet, or termed what happened here as sexual assault, almost as if we're all trying to suggest that its something lesser considering the circumstances. Is it?well, considering the circumstances? i would say it's something lesser.

PrettyCurlieQ
07-19-2008, 07:49 PM
That's awful Corey! I'm sorry, I've never had quite that experience, I think it's forward of guys to put their hands on my chest/ass (even though it's so common). But pulling your thong aside, that would end immediately. I'm not good at telling guys to stop, I act like such a pussy, but as soon as I find someone else (mgr, bouncer, other dancer) I start bitching, and the problem ends. I hope you told on him.

Jenny
07-19-2008, 08:02 PM
Of course it's something "lesser" doc. If we start assuming that strippers are real, live, human women under the law it would be a disaster for the vast majority of strip club customers. I mean - anyone here want to admit to sexual assault for fingering/trying to finger a stripper without permission?

yoda57us
07-19-2008, 08:29 PM
I mean - anyone here want to admit to sexual assault for fingering/trying to finger a stripper without permission?

Actually I would admit to it Jenny but it was a long time ago and I was wrong to do it. Of course I didn't view it as sexual assault at the time and the lady in question asked me to stop so I did...

Nowadays I always ask first...or wait until I am invited...

mr_punk
07-19-2008, 09:44 PM
I'm sorry, I've never had quite that experience, I think it's forward of guys to put their hands on my chest/ass (even though it's so common).how can grabbing some T&A be forward if it's as common as you say? oh well, i should be grateful you didn't drop the "R" word.

PrettyCurlieQ
07-19-2008, 09:45 PM
^It's forward to me bc it's ILLEGAL where I work and because I don't invite it!!

minnow
07-20-2008, 12:43 AM
^It's forward to me bc it's ILLEGAL where I work and because I don't invite it!!

PCQ- Have you or BF gone "illegal speeds" in your Mustang GT Turbo yet?? What % of Mustang owners do you think have done so?? Pushing & testing the limits is a longtime/deeply ingrained American trait/ethos. So it goes in stripclubs. That said, Coreys example was "over the line", IMO

mr_punk
07-20-2008, 03:33 AM
^It's forward to me bc it's ILLEGAL where I work and because I don't invite it!!it's illegal? ok. still, it sounds no different than the 3 foot rule which is routinely ignored by all.

PCQ- Have you or BF gone "illegal speeds" in your Mustang GT Turbo yet?? What % of Mustang owners do you think have done so??LOL...but PLs would never be tempted to open up such a car on an empty stretch of highway. it would be illegal.

Jenny
07-20-2008, 05:13 AM
Yoda, that makes me feel somewhat better, but overall even "polite" customers will tend to see us as less than "people" for this purpose.

Lysondra
07-20-2008, 05:23 AM
Difference between a stripper and a car... the stripper has feelings and said 'No'. I don't see a Mustang doing that.

xdamage
07-20-2008, 05:31 AM
I'm kind of surprised we're two pages into this thread and nobody has said the 'R' word yet, or termed what happened here as sexual assault, almost as if we're all trying to suggest that its something lesser considering the circumstances. Is it?

I'll be amazed if this question doesn't spiral out of control.

My indirect answer is I don't live in a world of black or white. I see most things in terms of gray scales, including almost all human behaviors. I also see that some people don't think this way, thus for them things are or they aren't, A or B, no other choices are possible. It would make everything complex and they want questions like this reduced to simple yes or no so that they can go through life on auto-pilot, using a set of simple rules, as thinking in gray scales would make their brains explode.

So anyway my indirect answer is this -

For those who see human behavior on gray scales, I think they would answer that it is lesser then say the guy who enters a woman's home and has forced intercourse with her, but it is greater than the guy who goes into a SC who puts his arm around a strippers shoulder while they talk without asking them first (not that all strippers ask customers if it is okay to touch them first either, but we are talking about gray scales here where everything really is complex, and there are no perfect answers, just compromises).

For those who sort human behavior into black or white buckets and feel uncomfortable with anything in between, I would say it is rape. He should have known better anyway, but on top of that, she told him no. No means no.

Both answers are truthful to me, in their own ways.

mr_punk
07-20-2008, 09:00 PM
For those who see human behavior on gray scales, I think they would answer that it is lesser then say the guy who enters a woman's home and has forced intercourse with her, but it is greater than the guy who goes into a SC who puts his arm around a strippers shoulder while they talk without asking them first (not that all strippers ask customers if it is okay to touch them first either, but we are talking about gray scales here where everything really is complex, and there are no perfect answers, just compromises).sure. the inherent difficulty of comparing certain civilian scenario to a sc scenario is they aren't necessarily equivalent or practical (it's like sexual harassment. it's one thing in the civilian world, but in the sc. LOL..it's part of the job) . seriously, i don't think a civilian woman would give a strange guy a second or third chance after he tries to finger her with an unlubricated digit in a club (well, unless she's drunk), but it's not uncommon in a sc. on the flip side, it's like customers comparing the honesty and ethics of strippers to what he encounters elsewhere or the customer service at Nordstrom to his local sc. realistically, he isn't going to necessarily find those things in a sc.

xdamage
07-20-2008, 10:17 PM
sure. the inherent difficulty of comparing certain civilian scenario to a sc scenario is they aren't necessarily equivalent or practical (it's like sexual harassment. it's one thing in the civilian world, but in the sc. LOL..it's part of the job) . seriously, i don't think a civilian woman would give a strange guy a second or third chance after he tries to finger her with an unlubricated digit in a club (well, unless she's drunk), but it's not uncommon in a sc. on

My guess is if you asked many (say 10,000) common persons about their opinion of the following scenarios:

1) Raping an unwilling and unaware female.

2.) Date rape, heavy petting agreed on, then gone wrong.

3.) Sexual assault of prostitute that is agreeable, but the act was not negotiated.

4.) Sexual assault against a stripper that is not agreeable, but who is trying to keep a customer aroused as long as possible ...

Well I could go on with more scenarios. But my gut instinct is even if we agree the man committed rape in all cases, the average person's sense of outrage (and maybe his punishment) will factor in the circumstances.

*Of course we could argue separately if the common person has "good" sense or should be dismissed as not interesting. Depending on what we want to argue, either stance can work ;)

bsteve
07-20-2008, 11:33 PM
So anyway my indirect answer is this -

For those who see human behavior on gray scales, I think they would answer that it is lesser then say the guy who enters a woman's home and has forced intercourse with her, but it is greater than the guy who goes into a SC who puts his arm around a strippers shoulder while they talk without asking them first (not that all strippers ask customers if it is okay to touch them first either, but we are talking about gray scales here where everything really is complex, and there are no perfect answers, just compromises).



Well, that's why are about a dozen different crimes that the guy could be charged under. Assault, rape, sexual harassement, breach of contract, obscene behavior, and about 2 or 3 degrees for each. That's why you see indictments run page after page for something that should be relatively straight forward.

xdamage
07-21-2008, 05:23 AM
Well, that's why are about a dozen different crimes that the guy could be charged under. Assault, rape, sexual harassement, breach of contract, obscene behavior, and about 2 or 3 degrees for each. That's why you see indictments run page after page for something that should be relatively straight forward.

Yea, I'm reasonably sure the laws reflect the complexity, but still you'll find that some people think it should come down to a yes or no matter only. That would make it "simple" but simple doesn't reflect how people tend to really see their world (i.e., the degrees of a crime).

Ironically, this is yet another reason why some law makers and religious conservatives argue for no contact laws in SCs (as well as laws prohibiting prostitution). Our country does make many laws to protect people from themselves. I don't think it's a great stretch to suggest that some men can dangerous when sexually aroused and that one way to decrease the crime to begin with is to make it illegal for people to put themselves into the dangerous position.

While some might feel that is dismissive of the bad male behavior, others would argue this is human nature and that to pretend it isn't so is just wishful thinking and foolishness. The same arguments can be applied to allowing people to carry weapons, or to fight in public, that "passion" leads to out of control people who escalate their behaviors, and so we have law makers trying to create laws to decrease crimes before they happen.

Golden_Rule
07-21-2008, 07:24 AM
^^
Because you get used to a certain amount of abuse. Even "nice guys" do it. I mean, guys here wouldn't (hopefully) try to hurt a dancer, but how many of them do you think advocate a "try shoving your fingers up there and see if she minds" attitude - most of them. I mean, we have to say "No" and "Stop That" quite a lot.

Which is why I never use "nice" as a measuring stick. I use fair instead. "Is it fair to do this, or that."

Works out much better for everyone concerned.

Golden_Rule
07-21-2008, 07:49 AM
Of course it's something "lesser" doc. If we start assuming that strippers are real, live, human women under the law it would be a disaster for the vast majority of strip club customers. I mean - anyone here want to admit to sexual assault for fingering/trying to finger a stripper without permission?


Actually I would admit to it Jenny but it was a long time ago and I was wrong to do it. Of course I didn't view it as sexual assault at the time and the lady in question asked me to stop so I did...

Nowadays I always ask first...or wait until I am invited...

See, that is why I think the negotiating very frankly about precisely what I want and what I am willing to pay BEFORE hitting the LD room or VIP it makes sense.

Yet I get funny looks here for suggesting it sometimes.

While I risk offending up front for asking about specifics some dancers find a bit over the top, I certainly reduce the back end issues of crossing any lines since everything was agreed to with informed consent.

Jenny
07-21-2008, 09:31 AM
Which is why I never use "nice" as a measuring stick. I use fair instead. "Is it fair to do this, or that."

Works out much better for everyone concerned.I would suggest that since the way of analysing the problem tends to be status based and not function based that it makes no real difference.

mr_punk
07-21-2008, 10:20 AM
Well I could go on with more scenarios. But my gut instinct is even if we agree the man committed rape in all cases, the average person's sense of outrage (and maybe his punishment) will factor in the circumstances.i think you give the average person way too much credit.;)

Which is why I never use "nice" as a measuring stick. I use fair instead. "Is it fair to do this, or that." Works out much better for everyone concerned.only if you don't hold the expectation of reciprocal behavior in return. fairness like honesty is sometimes it's own reward in a sc.

Yet I get funny looks here for suggesting it sometimes.not from me.

Tauries
07-21-2008, 10:49 AM
I told him he was hurting me and he relented a bit, but on the second LD, practically pulled my panties off and gave me a wedgy and it really HURT!!

After reviewing the facts as described I'm gonna go with violence due to extreme sexual frustration or a failed career as a magician. Violent tendencies from someone either so ignorant as to not know that underpants generally come off better in the downward direction or an aspiring magician seeking unsuccessfully to replicate the trick in panty form, would not be unexpected. My hopes for a speedy recovery from your "wedgy" incident.

yoda57us
07-21-2008, 04:27 PM
Yoda, that makes me feel somewhat better, but overall even "polite" customers will tend to see us as less than "people" for this purpose.


I think guys who want mileage above all else, even the nice guys, are guilty of what you say. I figured out what I wanted and figured out that there were better and easier places to find it.

lestat1
07-21-2008, 10:11 PM
Why did he do it? In his own little cost-benefit analysis, the pleasure he gained from touching you outweighed the guilt he felt assaulting you. I'm assuming he felt guilt. If not, well then we're in sociopath territory and there's your answer.

The "less than people" thing I don't get, but it sure exists everywhere. So many people can be just viscious to those in the service industry. I have a friend who waitresses part time and she gets verbal abuse all day. I met a couple of nurses who told me stories of all the times customers threw food and full bedpans at them. And then, the worst so far are all the violent stories I read on here. And I just named three situations where it pays to be nice to those people. I don't get it.

Let's see, my worst behavior in the club. The dirty club near here used to allow breast touching. Then it shifted to being allowed with a high enough tip. Then it shifted to about 50/50 as far as dancers who did and those who didn't. Somewhere along the way, I hadn't been to the club in a while. I show up, tip the $40/song for the breast contact, and reach up. "You can't touch there." Doh! I stop. I wish I could say lesson learned, but it took a few more visits and encountering a couple more dancers like her for me to realize that the rules there had changed.

xdamage
07-22-2008, 05:58 AM
The "less than people" thing I don't get, but it sure exists everywhere. So many people can be just viscious to those in the service industry. I have a friend who waitresses part time and she gets verbal abuse all day. I met a couple of nurses who told me stories of all the times customers threw food and full bedpans at them. And then, the worst so far are all the violent stories I read on here.

Very good point about it being common behavior in all service industries. Strange thing is how people can turn it on and off. I've known people who are recipients of this kind of bad behavior while on the job, who then turn around and behave equally as bad when someone else is serving them. It's as if the "do unto others" circuit in their brain is broken.

Golden_Rule
07-22-2008, 10:00 AM
I would suggest that since the way of analysing the problem tends to be status based and not function based that it makes no real difference.

OK, you lost me on that. Care to be more specific?

I would think function based, ie - each as to their needs or expectations, would be superior to status based? Unless I misunderstand what you mean by "status based"?