View Full Version : CS and SS
GSWRD
07-28-2008, 07:19 PM
Well, I don't spend that sort of money on dancers and I never have. If you had a good time and your expectations were met I guess it's your money to do with as you wish.
My 2 cents on the matter would be this however...
I'm sure your ATF decided that spending her own money on drinks and tips was worth the investment on her part in order to get a grand out of you. Personally, if I can't afford the whole ball of wax-VIP, drinks, tips and dances then I am thinking that I can't really afford to spend the amount that I am spending. What did you get for that grand that you wouldn't have gotten for half of that? I'm not busting your balls, just asking you to think about it.
I went through a dark period years ago of falling for SS, spending all my money in one night on one dancer and having to eat from the McDonald's dollar menu all week with change that I found under the seat and between the cushions...it wasn't good but it was a learning experience.no harm no foul, I just didn't have any other stories that came close to what the OP made this thread for. And my thought about what happened is exactly what your thought is.
Sorry to hear about what happened to you, but I knew what I was doing with the money I spent, to each his own I guess.
yoda57us
07-28-2008, 07:29 PM
no harm no foul, I just didn't have any other stories that came close to what the OP made this thread for. And my thought about what happened is exactly what your thought is.
Sorry to hear about what happened to you, but I knew what I was doing with the money I spent, to each his own I guess.
Nothing to be sorry for G, It was a long time ago and It helped me get my priorities in order when it comes to strip clubbing. I look at it as a relatively cheap lesson learned.
GSWRD
07-28-2008, 08:03 PM
Nothing to be sorry for G, It was a long time ago and It helped me get my priorities in order when it comes to strip clubbing. I look at it as a relatively cheap lesson learned.
"Life is just a collection of moments to learn from and reflect upon" amirite?
Golden_Rule
07-28-2008, 09:18 PM
Does it seem to anyone else that when guys say "they don't like SS" they mean that they don't like SS that they can't believe?
HUH?
If a person is so good at deception that you can't tell its deception how can you take offense at the deception as you don't know you've been deceived.
Example: I would think it would take some doing to pull the SS wool over the eyes of a customer with my experience level but if a particular dancer is up to the challenge and successful how would I ever know?
The statement makes little sense unless what you really mean is, "They don't like SS they can't delude themselves into believing.", and as some of us already stated we don't care to delude ourselves.
Golden_Rule
07-28-2008, 09:23 PM
Like I said, I am reasonably sure that most of the guys here would not be okay with the cold hard truth of "It makes me want to throw up when an older guy like you touches me like this"
Change that to, "It makes me want to throw up when an older guy like you touches me like this, but you are paying me a lot of good money not to let that little fact dissuade me from providing excellent service; thus I will beat back my temptation to yak on your lap and earn the money I agreed to accept for the precise act(s) we negotiated prior to my entering into this arrangement with full knowledge and consent.", and I'm cool with that.
Jenny
07-28-2008, 10:25 PM
Example: I would think it would take some doing to pull the SS wool over the eyes of a customer with my experience level
Well... who doesn't think that? Like I don't personally run into many customers who are all "I have shit insight. I have no idea when people are just bullshitting me. I just have terrible people skills, or my people skills are so-so, but it just doesn't translate into this environment." Everyone thinks they are savvy and experienced and can tell when they are being led on and, incidentally, that their job or former job gives them mad skills in dealing with people. They are not all right.
The statement makes little sense unless what you really mean is, "They don't like SS they can't delude themselves into believing.", and as some of us already stated we don't care to delude ourselves.Well, like I said - almost everyone thinks their delusions are of the special, non-delusional variety. If they didn't, it would be pretty easy to explain to people that they were delusions.
yoda57us
07-29-2008, 05:39 AM
"Life is just a collection of moments to learn from and reflect upon" amirite?
Or, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
xdamage
07-29-2008, 05:44 AM
Change that to, "It makes me want to throw up when an older guy like you touches me like this, but you are paying me a lot of good money not to let that little fact dissuade me from providing excellent service; thus I will beat back my temptation to yak on your lap and earn the money I agreed to accept for the precise act(s) we negotiated prior to my entering into this arrangement with full knowledge and consent.", and I'm cool with that.
That's fine. Your ego may allow for that level of honesty, and you may be the exception (they happen) but a key word in my sentence was "most", meaning I am guessing that statistically the majority of customers do not want that level of honesty.
If they did, if it worked, we would 'tend' to see dancers using that as their hustle. Put another way, people do "what works". This is the essence of learning. If it works, they tend to repeat a behavior. If it fails, they tend o avoid it. So if I see large groups of dancers using SS to make sales, I assume it's because (overall) it works.
There may well be exceptions, and you may be one, but the dancer hustle is like so much else in life, a matter of playing the odds.
Odds are if 10 guys come in looking for dances, at least 9 of them want SS on some level. It only makes sense then that they lay on the SS, banking on the 9, and not trying to cast their nets to catch the 1.
bem401
07-29-2008, 12:58 PM
Well BEM, I know you are a regular and all but I doubt that you are sitting in the club for a gal's entire shift. If this is the case you really have no way of knowing how much one of your "friends" has made during her shift. I humbly suggest that if they are asking you for a dance that may well be considered SS by many.
You have created a situation where you have told them that if they are having a really bad day you will do a dance with them. So....all they have to do to get you to buy a dance is tell you that they are having a really bad day...even if three regulars just left the club before you walked in and two more are on the way...
All true, but they ask so infrequently that I have no reason to doubt them. Its really now down to just one girl I run into with any sort of frequency these days. I have had a few occasions where I've asked if she needed dances and she's told me to save it for a day when she really needs it. I know that sounds improbable but it is true. Its just as well, because she is no longer comfortable giving me the quality of dance I got from her years ago.
mr_punk
07-29-2008, 01:50 PM
I have had a few occasions where I've asked if she needed dances and she's told me to save it for a day when she really needs it. I know that sounds improbable but it is true.LOL..actually, it's funny. it's sound like a stripper with a LD piggy bank which is only to be broken in case of an emergency
Golden_Rule
07-29-2008, 05:26 PM
Well... who doesn't think that? Like I don't personally run into many customers who are all "I have shit insight. I have no idea when people are just bullshitting me. I just have terrible people skills, or my people skills are so-so, but it just doesn't translate into this environment." Everyone thinks they are savvy and experienced and can tell when they are being led on and, incidentally, that their job or former job gives them mad skills in dealing with people. They are not all right.
Well, like I said - almost everyone thinks their delusions are of the special, non-delusional variety. If they didn't, it would be pretty easy to explain to people that they were delusions.
Excuse me for saying so but the logic you appear to be using is circular and I am not sure gets at what I was driving at.
All I said was is if a person is so good at deception that the deceived has no idea s/he was deceived, what does the deceived have to complain about as they never become aware they were deceived?
Conversely, if the deceiver isn't good enough not to be detected, those that will detect it who don't care to be deceived will tell the attempting deceiver to shove off.
Where did I go wrong with that?
Golden_Rule
07-29-2008, 05:46 PM
...but a key word in my sentence was "most", meaning I am guessing that statistically the majority of customers do not want that level of honesty.
I would agree that your guess is probably accurate.
I just think there might be more exceptions than most here figure there to be.
If they did, if it worked, we would 'tend' to see dancers using that as their hustle. Put another way, people do "what works". This is the essence of learning. If it works, they tend to repeat a behavior. If it fails, they tend o avoid it. So if I see large groups of dancers using SS to make sales, I assume it's because (overall) it works.
I can't help but see this as a service industry.
Example: I need a plumber to deal with my broken toilet. The odds that she is going to get shit on her during this process is pretty high. I am sure she would prefer not to get shit on her but it is inevitable. She sets her fee at a level she feels is worthy compensation for having to deal with, literally, my shit.
Should I feel wrong or lessened in some way because of the situation? Should the plumber?
Do I select a plumber based on which one lies to me best, saying they really like getting my shit on their hands, especially when I know that couldn't possibly be the case, or do I select it based on who makes it evident to me they have the best plumbing skills?
There may well be exceptions, and you may be one, but the dancer hustle is like so much else in life, a matter of playing the odds. Odds are if 10 guys come in looking for dances, at least 9 of them want SS on some level. It only makes sense then that they lay on the SS, banking on the 9, and not trying to cast their nets to catch the 1.
I don't disagree with you.
What I am pointing out is the frustration and eventual and inescapable problems that creates when reality intrudes, which it surely must at some point, into these situations.
From a sheer mental health standpoint how much safer is it for dancer and customer alike to simply approach it from the same aspect one would approach any other service industry, instead of giving it this special ethical arena treatment where folks have to lie to each other and themselves to make it work?
xdamage
07-30-2008, 12:18 AM
From a sheer mental health standpoint how much safer is it for dancer and customer alike to simply approach it from the same aspect one would approach any other service industry, instead of giving it this special ethical arena treatment where folks have to lie to each other and themselves to make it work?
The only thought that comes to mind is the following point:
Stripclubs changed somewhere along the way.
There was a time when we went to go watch attractive women "strip".
Somewhere along the way the private dance was added, and slowly evolved from a one on one session of what we could see on stage, to a deep hustle in which dancers pretend to be emotionally involved with customers in order to keep the money flowing.
From a certain ethical point of view, that is a kind of evil in itself, yet... customers want it. They literally want and pay for it, so what two adults agree too, let no man (or woman) put asunder.
Yet it crossed the line from being a service where people's personal boundaries are maintained, to one where pretty much anything goes. Dancers are free to play on the emotions of the customer, like an instrument, to increase income. Customers agree to lose their personal and professional boundaries, and engage in this exchange, often confusing reality with the act being put on to extract more $$s.
I can't really blaim dancers or customers. They both wanted it, and both benefit, but it long ago crossed a line from a service with a solid line of professionalism into the realm of emotionally fuckery for dollars. But here is a thought...
In a world where we are bombarded by all manner of entertainments, is it really surprising that we grow bored? That we want a better high? A deeper thrill? A greater rush? And what better way to get it, then to cross the line from reality into a fantasy confused with reality?
What I am saying is, many customers seem to really want the thrill of such a good fantasy, that they really do forget reality. As dangerous as that is to their mental health, that is the thrill they need and are willing to pay for. And where there is money flowing, it is a sure bet that someone will come along to provide what is wanted to get that money.
Golden_Rule
07-30-2008, 02:36 AM
^^^^
You know, when I made the post you responded to above I was pretty damn cock sure that there was no way to make a viable counter-argument to it.
Apparently I was wrong. :)
I can't fault your logic. It simply comes down to two visions.
One is strip-club used as service industry. The other, the way you describe it, sounds something like the use of a drug to me. You know what you see, feel, even think when you drop the chemical into your system is altered reality, but that is precisely why you take it in the first place.
I will maintain the notion though, if you will allow, that it is plausible the use of strip-clubs as a service industry approach may be less likely to mess with the head in the long run.
wishing well...
xdamage
07-30-2008, 06:02 AM
One is strip-club used as service industry. The other, the way you describe it, sounds something like the use of a drug to me. You know what you see, feel, even think when you drop the chemical into your system is altered reality, but that is precisely why you take it in the first place.
I will maintain the notion though, if you will allow, that it is plausible the use of strip-clubs as a service industry approach may be less likely to mess with the head in the long run.
wishing well...
It is plausible, but a couple of related thoughts:
Maybe the lines became blurred because the pot-of-gold for some dancers is in finding customers who will become emotionally involved, so much so that they go on and pay them large sums of money over long periods of times. I could see why that would be tempting. You only need a few of those to assure something like a "stable" income and less stress of wondering where the money is coming from next week.
Obviously not all dancers want regulars, and maybe they are the ones to do business with if all you seek is a purely professional play for pay situation?
You know, I have on a few occasions asked a dancer, no small talk please, here is the money, just dance. I really wasn't up for the small talk or associated hustle, yet even then, they invariably throw in some SS. I guess why not though? There is a chance I'm the guy who will fall for it and be back spending even greater sums of money as a result.
Jenny
07-30-2008, 06:10 AM
Excuse me for saying so but the logic you appear to be using is circular and I am not sure gets at what I was driving at.
All I said was is if a person is so good at deception that the deceived has no idea s/he was deceived, what does the deceived have to complain about as they never become aware they were deceived?
Conversely, if the deceiver isn't good enough not to be detected, those that will detect it who don't care to be deceived will tell the attempting deceiver to shove off.
Where did I go wrong with that?
My point is that everyone thinks that they are similarly hard to deceive, and that the deceiver would have to be unusually skilled to deceive them; so it is the exact same thing and the exact same position as everyone else. You want SS you can believe, not an absence of it. Very few customers want SS that is as artificial as possible so that they can't suspend their disbelief. The fact that you want other things as well doesn't change that. That is common to a lot of customer related jobs - I mean, there is such thing as "emotional labour" in a lot of different jobs and industries; not just this one.
Lapaholic
07-30-2008, 05:20 PM
...That is common to a lot of customer related jobs - I mean, there is such thing as "emotional labour" in a lot of different jobs and industries; not just this one.
Wait --- are u telling me that she really doesnt think I am handsome and that she could really fall for a guy like me. Oh damn!!!!
I was sure my barista was into me! Damn u *$.....
Jenny
07-30-2008, 05:26 PM
Well did she just smile at you a lot or did she give you extra whipped cream?
Lapaholic
07-30-2008, 08:06 PM
No but she she always gave me a free shot and said she never gave free espresso to her other regulars... I joined a barista support site and started a thread to see if the other baristas thought she really liked me and what my chances of dating her mite be. Tho im not sure I can take her frothing for other guys.
Golden_Rule
07-31-2008, 04:15 AM
My point is that everyone thinks that they are similarly hard to deceive, and that the deceiver would have to be unusually skilled to deceive them; so it is the exact same thing and the exact same position as everyone else. You want SS you can believe, not an absence of it. Very few customers want SS that is as artificial as possible so that they can't suspend their disbelief. The fact that you want other things as well doesn't change that. That is common to a lot of customer related jobs - I mean, there is such thing as "emotional labour" in a lot of different jobs and industries; not just this one.
OK, I know where this is going off line.
What we have been talking past each other about is the difference between being deceived by someone else and self-deception re: SS. The kind of thing that happens when a dancer is telling a customer how good looking he is, the customer knows she is just telling him this to sell him services, but lets it slide because he wants to hear it - willing entering into a state of self-induced delusion.
Apples and oranges.
Yes, I agree, many customers WANT to believe thus accept a certain amount of SS because it is precisely what they want, even though their cognitive inner voice tells them, "umm, I detect SS".
What I said was that if the customers DOESN'T want SS than only two states will exist. Either he will not pick up that SS is being slung his way because the dancer is that good at it, thus there is nothing to dismiss her for, or he will detect SS and send her, politely we hope, on her way.
grindonme
08-17-2008, 11:51 AM
The only thought that comes to mind is the following point:
Stripclubs changed somewhere along the way.
There was a time when we went to go watch attractive women "strip".
Somewhere along the way the private dance was added, and slowly evolved from a one on one session of what we could see on stage, to a deep hustle in which dancers pretend to be emotionally involved with customers in order to keep the money flowing.
:DI've been saying that for years, i remember when i was first able to get intp stripclubs in like '97 we went into the stripclub, watched the women strip, tipped them at the stage, got dances, etc...and then at the end of the night you either parking lot pimped or went home. There would always be 3 or 4 guys that would be trying to actually talk inside the club but that was about it. I think in like 2000 or 2001 everything changed and more and more guys started treating the stripclub more like a social club than a stripclub and thats when the part i put in red from the above quote started. Since i was around before this started i've never gotten used to it