View Full Version : Apparently we're all PL's...
yoda57us
08-04-2008, 10:53 AM
What you are doing is that you are arguing that strippers and prostitutes belong in the same category. If you do work in SCs, I would think that you would want your work to be viewed as a legitimate work by the general society, so that going to a SC would not be viewed as a vice, but as a generally accepted form of entertainment. I would think that a SC worker would try everything in his or her own power to differentiate SC work from illegitimate work such as prostitution work.
Well, I used to think like you do until I started seeing escorts and paying some strippers for sex OTC (which obviously makes them escorts as well). I realized after doing the same thing with these gals that I do with strippers -talking to them, getting to know a few of them and not judging them based on what they do for a living that the category of sex worker does indeed fit both occupations.
While there may be differences in the exact services provided by a stripper vs. a prostitute I don't think there is actually as much difference in the way society perceives them as you think there is. I suggest you take strippers off the pedestal that you have put them on and stop looking down your nose at prostitutes. At that point it will become clearer to you that the similarities are greater than the differences and their is no shame in either occupation regardless of how society may choose to view them.
mr_punk
08-04-2008, 11:08 AM
If you do work in SCs, I would think that you would want your work to be viewed as a legitimate work by the general society, so that going to a SC would not be viewed as a vice, but as a generally accepted form of entertainment.LOL..ironically, this is the same spiel marketed by sc back in the good ol days. it looks like PLs are still buying it hook, line and sinker.
xdamage
08-04-2008, 12:32 PM
But it is...
A bit of an ironic point... recently on SW the dancers were collectively agreeing that their money is now going down the toilet in part due to the dying social stigma. It's now cool to be a stripper, which means... more women are doing it.
Like many have said all along, it is because SCs are viewed as a vice that there is some value in it and it keeps the competition down. If society viewed it as entirely normal, we could well see many orders of magnitude more women entering the business (since there would be no shame in it), which would mean the pie would be sliced even thinner, and competition would further drive down prices.
Be careful what you wish for... sometimes (often) wishes come with consequences (the good old Genie and 3 wishes story applies).
doc-catfish
08-04-2008, 01:20 PM
A bit of an ironic point... recently on SW the dancers were collectively agreeing that their money is now going down the toilet in part due to the dying social stigma. It's now cool to be a stripper, which means... more women are doing it.
I'd agree thats one reason, albeit a smaller one. The larger reason that more women are doing it is the same reason that fewer men are buying right now. For a lot of us, the economy is in the shitter.
Perhaps its because I live in an area thats pretty low on the economic totem pole or really isn't seeing the downturn caused by the housing bubble (because there really wasn't much bubble to begin with), but clubs in my state, and neighboring states aren't exactly dealing with dancer overpopulation. In fact, I'd say we hit that peak 3-4 years ago. The number of gals, and quality of them, has steadily dwindled since.
But lestat did hit one important point that might be good news to the gals upstairs:
I still contend that I'm a PL though, because my reasons for going are not for mere entertaiment, but to fulfill a need for physical intimacy in my life.
Which is true for a lot of men out there, even happily married ones. Many of us use sex workers to fill a void, even in a sexually liberalized society where with a little gumption, it could probably be had for free from the right gal. Its not as if one has to pay for it, but sometimes its just easier to shell out the money.
For that type of customer, whether strip clubs are edgy or not is really irrelevant. As long as lonely men walk the earth, there will be a need for sex workers of all types. Thing is, for loneliness to translate to $$$, Mr. Lonely needs to have money available to spend, and right now that resource is pretty shallow for a lot of guys.
Casual Observer
08-04-2008, 05:48 PM
What you are doing is that you are arguing that strippers and prostitutes belong in the same category.
They do belong in the sex worker category. And that's not a slag on either sub-group of the demographic. It's just reality--they're merely two sides of a 20-sided die that constitutes the sex industry.
Plus, what Yoda and Jenny said.
xdamage
08-04-2008, 06:56 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_worker
"A sex worker is a person who works in the sex industry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_industry). Sex workers may be employed as prostitutes, strippers, go-go dancers, burlesque performers, escorts, dominatrices, peepshow workers, phone sex operators, hustlers, foot fetish models, brothel workers, or porn stars among other things. Some sex workers are paid to engage in sex acts which involve varying degrees of physical contact with clients. "
FWIW, it really does not imply some negative value judgment. It is akin to saying that Automobile Mechanics works in the Automobile Industry. It does not mean that they are Automotive Engineers, or that they work in on a factory floor assembling vehicles like an Automobile Factory Worker. All of these are positions within the umbrella of people who work in the Automotive industry.
yoda57us
08-04-2008, 07:19 PM
p.s. Oh and don't shoot the messenger... I just copied and pasted the wiki page. It had the text "cam whores" in it so if we are easily offended I coudl asterisk it out, but that is the word used in the original article.
I just changed it. "Cam whore" is not a frequently used reference at all for women who do web cam work unless of course you are the guy wrting ad copy for the cam site!. Cam model or cam girl is much more common.
Even if you want to forget the pejorative implication of the word in this case it is not even accurate.
Sorry to mess up your cut and paste X.
Gotta love Wiki
xdamage
08-04-2008, 07:29 PM
^^^ Haha well I changed mine too then...
BTW Yoda, the links to the related pages are now bad. Unfortunately those you probably have to leave as they were.
yoda57us
08-04-2008, 07:43 PM
^^^ Haha well I changed mine too then...
BTW Yoda, the links to the related pages are now bad. Unfortunately those you probably have to leave as they were.
Yes, I find the links are often bad after a while but that's not unusual on the web.
I don't spend a ton of time on Wiki but I always seem to find questionable references and even some out and out wrong info anytime I'm on there reading about someone or something that I'm familiar with.
bsteve
08-05-2008, 08:50 PM
No. And I post it because... well it is true and accurate. The fact that I am a stripper doesn't mean that I am illiterate or incapable of knowing things that aren't stripping.
Maybe I am missing something. Did you think that I think that you or strippers are illiterate or incapable of knowing of things that aren't stripping? On the contrary; I think that you know about stripping and about differences and similarities between stripping and other professions more than I will ever know.
Or maybe a dancer can also see prostitution as legitimate labour (much like the people who coined the term "sex work") and does not need to demonize other people in the trade to make her look like a "good woman" - sexually pure - by comparison. Frankly I find that to be a distasteful tactic.
You may think that prostitution is legitimate labor. And maybe some other dancers think so too (I have no idea how many do or do not). But the problem is that the society at large does not think of prostitution as legitimate labor. The majority of society believes that prostitution is wrong, that it is against the Bible, that it destroys marriages, that it harms children, that it exploits women in the industry, and that it degrades women in general. It is not relevant if such charges against prostitution are true; what is relevant is the negative image of prostitution in the minds of most people.
Like it or not, prostitution has a negative connotation in the society. In any kind of business, I would tend to think that a person involved in a business (as either a seller or a buyer) would like to view their business in a positive light, and dissociate that business from related activities that have negative connotations.
yoda57us
08-06-2008, 04:28 AM
You may think that prostitution is legitimate labor. And maybe some other dancers think so too (I have no idea how many do or do not). But the problem is that the society at large does not think of prostitution as legitimate labor. The majority of society believes that prostitution is wrong, that it is against the Bible, that it destroys marriages, that it harms children, that it exploits women in the industry, and that it degrades women in general. It is not relevant if such charges against prostitution are true; what is relevant is the negative image of prostitution in the minds of most people.
Well, first of all I think you are generalizing the entire issue based on your thoughts on the topic rather than what "society at large" may or may not think or even care about...but that's just my opinion.
Secondly, you are forgetting that prostitution is actually legal in some parts of the US and in many other countries all over the world. While that may not change society's (or your) opinion of prostitutes it certainly does qualify it as legitimate labor.
Like it or not, prostitution has a negative connotation in the society. In any kind of business, I would tend to think that a person involved in a business (as either a seller or a buyer) would like to view their business in a positive light, and dissociate that business from related activities that have negative connotations.
Why are you assuming that dancers, or prostitutes, do not view their business in a positive light? Again, you are assuming that because you have a problem with it that everyone else does as well.
Right now you are on a board populated by women who work in the sex industry and the men (and women) who spend money on them. It stands to reason that you are not going to find a whole lot of people here who follow your logic.
I've known strippers who thought prostitution was wrong (either morally or simply because it hurts their money if it is going in their club) and escorts who thought strippers were only kidding themselves thinking that teasing guys was better than just giving them what they want. One thing I do know is that most strippers and escorts do what they do the same as any other person who works for a living. While society, or a segment of it, may attach a stigma to sex workers, sex workers themselves are generally much more pragmatic about the whole thing.
Maybe I would take this all more seriously if priests were not molesting young boys, evangelists were not having affairs with young church workers and our trusted elected officials were not paying prostitutes and boinking interns. As it is, I have very little patience for those who judge others and preach the moral high ground while they are double-locking the closet door hoping that we will not see all of the skeletons they have in their...
I haven't taken any surveys or anything but my hunch is that most sex workers feel the same way about those why try to judge them simply by what they do for a living.
Jenny
08-06-2008, 04:41 AM
Maybe I am missing something. Did you think that I think that you or strippers are illiterate or incapable of knowing of things that aren't stripping? On the contrary; I think that you know about stripping and about differences and similarities between stripping and other professions more than I will ever know.
Then I have no idea why you are questioning why I would post on the meaning and history of the term "sex worker".
You may think that prostitution is legitimate labor. And maybe some other dancers think so too (I have no idea how many do or do not). But the problem is that the society at large does not think of prostitution as legitimate labor.
Why do you think you in a position to tell me what society at large thinks?
The majority of society believes that prostitution is wrong, that it is against the Bible, that it destroys marriages, that it harms children, that it exploits women in the industry, and that it degrades women in general. It is not relevant if such charges against prostitution are true; what is relevant is the negative image of prostitution in the minds of most people.
Like it or not, prostitution has a negative connotation in the society. In any kind of business, I would tend to think that a person involved in a business (as either a seller or a buyer) would like to view their business in a positive light, and dissociate that business from related activities that have negative connotations.
I'm sorry - where you are from do people generally draw positions that are obviously not true on their face in order to draw a positive comparison between them and another group? And is this convincing to anyone?
What you are suggesting I do is essentially deny that a) prostitution is legitimate labour and b) deny that stripping is sexually involved labour in hopes that "society" might think that we strippers are "good women" - at least in comparison to the whores? Yeah, I'm afraid there is no way to do the second without looking like a moron and I frankly have no desire to do the first. I'm not a big fan of the school of thought that encourages the scapegoating of one group in the (rather vain in our case) hope that my group will fare better because "society" is busy tearing someone else apart. I have different opinions about why prostitution has negative connotations in society than you do, and I decline to censor or modify my opinions or suppress straight out facts because you think I ought to be on some kind of stripclubjunkie stripper-PR campaign, and that such a campaign would have to involve the tack you suggest.
What is your problem with prostitutes anyway?
xdamage
08-06-2008, 05:59 AM
Question : Long term, is it better to continue to propagate the belief that Stripping is "good" and Prostitution is "bad", or is our society better off if we propagate the belief that paid for sex between consenting adults should not be a crime?
Me, I strongly lean towards the later, but I have heard some very good arguments too why prostitution is harmful and should not be allowed for the same reasons we don't allow people to use certain kinds of drugs. But the compelling arguments have nothing to do with trying to maintain the stripper's market place.
I do understand why you would think that strippers would be in favor of laws that protect their market, but you have to remember it comes at a cost too. The cost is that it requires maintaining the belief that it is the government's job to regulate what a woman can and cannot do with her body. They may win the battle but still end up losing the war.
hockeybobby
08-06-2008, 07:31 AM
I like strippers...I like prostitutes....I like sex...it is very nice.
bsteve
08-06-2008, 08:06 PM
Why do you think you in a position to tell me what society at large thinks?
Well, I am a member of this forum, and just like everyone else here I express my viewpoint. I am not forcing my views on you anymore then you are forcing your views on me. Just like anyone else, you may disagree with my view point, and I may disagree with your viewpoint.
Do you think that my view is wrong? Do you honestly believe that prostitution is viewed in a positive light by the society at large? Do we really live in a society when a neighbor or an acquitance tells another: "I just heard the good news! Congratulations on your daughter's career move into prostitution. I hear that the whorehouse in which she'll start to work is a top notch establishment. You must be so proud her!" in a manner that is acceptable to talk about career move into accounting, engineering, or medicine.
If you do believe that prostitution is pretty well accepted in our society, then you are correct, and my argument about dissociation of strippers from prostitutes makes absolutely no sense. And I would pretty much agree with your view point.
I'm sorry - where you are from do people generally draw positions that are obviously not true on their face in order to draw a positive comparison between them and another group? And is this convincing to anyone?
...I decline to censor or modify my opinions or suppress straight out facts because you think I ought to be on some kind of stripclubjunkie stripper-PR campaign, and that such a campaign would have to involve the tack you suggest.
Look, you and other strippers are business women who work hard for their money. It is my understanding that you are independent contractors and not employees, and that for most strippers the amount of income is dictated largely by the amount of work and marketing that they do.
How you market yourself or your industry is not my problem. You can do what you want. I am not telling you that you should be on any PR campaign.
I am in a service industry too, and do have to spend some time trying to sell myself, my business. I try to show my potential clients how much better I and my business is then the guy down the street, and how my type of business is different then the businesses types which have negative connotation. I am certainly going do my best "to censor or modify opinions or suppress straight out facts" that are not the best interest for my business or clients. I got family to support; I gotta make money.
Good luck!
mr_punk
08-07-2008, 03:02 AM
LOL..and some of these guys wonder why they got kicked out of pink.
yoda57us
08-07-2008, 05:07 AM
I am in a service industry too,
Dude, not that everything you typed BEFORE this phrase wasn't causing me to laugh my ass off but this is the kicker.
Please, don't try and compare whatever your "service industry" job is to dancing, escorting or any other job in the sex trade. It's clear from your posts here that you don't know enough about what the gig is or what motivates the women who do it. Someday you may find out that your favorite "entertainer"/stripper, the one up on that pedestal you have put her on, is also working for the local escort agency. I'd love to be a fly on the wall during that conversation...
You say you don't care what women do to promote their business but it's clear that you have no problem judging them for it...
Jenny
08-07-2008, 05:07 AM
Well, I am a member of this forum, and just like everyone else here I express my viewpoint. I am not forcing my views on you anymore then you are forcing your views on me. Just like anyone else, you may disagree with my view point, and I may disagree with your viewpoint.
I never claimed that you were forcing your opinion on me. I was suggesting that you were experiencing a certain amount of hybris by sitting back and making declarative statements to me about society and what society likes about women in the industry.
Do you think that my view is wrong? Do you honestly believe that prostitution is viewed in a positive light by the society at large? Do we really live in a society when a neighbor or an acquitance tells another: "I just heard the good news! Congratulations on your daughter's career move into prostitution. I hear that the whorehouse in which she'll start to work is a top notch establishment. You must be so proud her!" in a manner that is acceptable to talk about career move into accounting, engineering, or medicine.
I already said that I think "society's" issues with prostitution are a little more complicated than you do. And I'm not sure you couldn't substitute a lot of words into that sentence; there is a lot of legitimate work that is still frequently considered low status work and I question anyone who is willing to take it on themselves to declare, absent any principled basis, which of those is "real" work based on nothing more than his intuitions of what his neighbours think.
Look, you and other strippers are business women who work hard for their money.
And other typically "low status" workers (like prostitutes) don't?
How you market yourself or your industry is not my problem. You can do what you want. I am not telling you that you should be on any PR campaign.
And yet. Here we are arguing about whether or not I should be posting facts (facts that are well known hereabouts) relating to the sex industry because you don't think it is advantageous to strippers. How about that.
I am in a service industry too, and do have to spend some time trying to sell myself, my business. I try to show my potential clients how much better I and my business is then the guy down the street, and how my type of business is different then the businesses types which have negative connotation. I am certainly going do my best "to censor or modify opinions or suppress straight out facts" that are not the best interest for my business or clients. I got family to support; I gotta make money.I don't even know how to answer this. We are not discussing making each individual sale. We are discussing social and political (socio-political, if you will) standing and perceptions of sex workers. For the rest - I think I've already answered it. Twice. You are selectively quoting, my friend.
And seriously. What is your issue with prostitutes?
xdamage
08-07-2008, 08:18 AM
FWIW,
If you read the posts here you read that many dancers don't tell their families they are strippers. Many don't put it on a resume. They are aware that society as a whole doesn't view it as "legit" work. It is the same with porn and other sex related work. While there are many customers, even customers don't necessarily view the providers in a positive light. Or even if they say they do, if they were really put in the position, would not be okay with their daughters, wives, or GFs being providers.
But I am 99.9% sure that this is just human nature and it crosses cultures. Sex is such a significant factor in our lives that how people feel about it runs very deep. Selling it as a commodity definitely seems to stir strong emotions in people. And read the pink side. Even those in the sex industry have strong emotional opinions about each other. Just look at how often strippers on SW become emotionally charged over women who are prostituting or doing porn. But hey, strippers are people too. Most of us have strong feelings about sex, fidelity, emotional involvement, risks, etc., even those who work in the industry.
bsteve
08-09-2008, 08:03 PM
Please, don't try and compare whatever your "service industry" job is to dancing, escorting or any other job in the sex trade. It's clear from your posts here that you don't know enough about what the gig is or what motivates the women who do it.
Dude, based on reading your numerous past posting, I've learned to respect your opinion. So this post did made me sit back. Maybe you are right. Maybe I do not understand it. I think I do; but it is possible that I don't.
Someday you may find out that your favorite "entertainer"/stripper, the one up on that pedestal you have put her on, is also working for the local escort agency. I'd love to be a fly on the wall during that conversation...
I don't have a favorite entertainer, and am not looking for one. I am still too new to this.
BTW, you've posted a couple of times comments to the effect that I put strippers on a pedestal. I do not understand why you think that. I respect strippers, but I do not put them on pedestals.
bsteve
08-09-2008, 08:14 PM
I don't even know how to answer this. ...
Jenny, I think that I am pretty much done with this thread. It is obvious that either I do not know enough about this subject as you do, or I am just not expressing myself as clearly as I think I need to.
Jenny, I admire your postings on this board. I've learned over the course of several years in other forums, that when a relative newbie argues with a seasoned moderator, that it is usually the newbie who does not understand the issues as well as he thinks he does. It is likely that this is the case here.
I thank you for putting up with my unconventional views. You've been very patient. Thank you.
yoda57us
08-09-2008, 08:30 PM
Dude, based on reading your numerous past posting, I've learned to respect your opinion. So this post did made me sit back. Maybe you are right. Maybe I do not understand it. I think I do; but it is possible that I don't.
Well, I appreciate the kind words. Most of my opinions here are based on many years of not only paying dancers and escorts to do what it is they do for me but also from befriending women who have worked or work in various segments of the sex business. My POV did not develop overnight. I've had a lot of input from some great ladies over the years who came to work every shift with pretty much the same goals as anyone who works hard for a living in any field: To pay their bills, put food on the table and build a better life for themselves and their loved ones.
I don't have a favorite entertainer, and am not looking for one. I am still too new to this.
Well, the statement was sort of a hypothetical...
BTW, you've posted a couple of times comments to the effect that I put strippers on a pedestal. I do not understand why you think that. I respect strippers, but I do not put them on pedestals.
Sorry but, from where I sit you do. You are putting strippers on some sort of unrealistic higher (moral?) plane than prostitutes. I simply don't buy in to this.
Of course, like everything else I have posted here on SCJ it is all opinion...and you know what they say about opinions...
UtahMike
08-10-2008, 12:00 AM
Well, I myself think that prostitution should be legal and regulated for health reasons as it is in most of Nevada. Mrs. UtahMike thinks the same. However, if it were legal, I would not start going to prostitutes and she would not decide to become one. I would continue to enjoy going to strip clubs, she would continue to tolerate it and not bug me about it. I enjoy being entertained be exotic dancers, but I have negative desire to partake of a prostitute's offerings. If others do, it is none of my concern nor business. Other people eat liver and vote the straight Republican ticket, and I tolerate that.
Here's some things that have happened her locally that would probably not have happened if prostitution were legal.
About a month ago, some local guy had an argument with his girlfriend. Then he went and got his big pistol, which he wasn't supposed to have because he had previously been in an armed standoff with the cops. But he had the pistol anyway, so he got it, went downtown, and found a streetwalker. He went behind a building with her and shot her dead. Then he went down the street two blocks, found another streetwalker, took her to an abandoned apartment and shot HER dead. After this, he drove to his parents' home, told them what he had done, and they talked him into turning himself in. He's currently undergoing mental evaluation prior to going to trial. Hookers are dead whether he's sane or not. Contributions are being taken for the one woman's kids, and the community is a lot more concerned for her now that she is dead.
OK, big furor in the community, so the cops are cracking down on the streetwalkers. In today's paper, there was an article about an undercover cop who had busted a streetwalker. He asked for sex, she quoted sixty bucks, he offered fifty, and she accepted. Then he arrested her.
Fifty bucks? Why is this woman prostituting herself (and risking her life) for fifty bucks when she could be dancing? Even if the club kept half and she only made $10 from a $20 dance, she would only have to sell five. Granted, you can't get a lap dance anywhere in town, but Salt Lake is only forty five miles south and you can get them there in certain clubs.
If prostitution were legal, this guy would not have been able to find two defenseless women on the street to murder. (OK, so then maybe he would have gone somewhere else and killed someone else. Who knows.) And if prostitution were legal, the streetwalkers would be making way more than fifty bucks, and their customers would not be risking disease and arrest.
OK, that's my :twocents:
Golden_Rule
09-03-2008, 03:32 PM
While the above statement may not be true, what makes a PL a Pathetic Loser?
Life is about having a good time and a good time almost always comes out of balance. Loss of balance is how I define slipping into PL'dom.
Going to strip-clubs should be about adding flavor to ones life. Like a condiment seasons a meal. If your life becomes about the condiment instead of the meal than that is a pretty good sign you've lost perspective/balance and might be slipping into a pathetic existence.
So a guy who spends his life in strip-clubs and doesn't date, get romantically involved in the real world [I don't mean other than with dancers, I mean other than dancers who aren't also truly romantically involved with him], have kids, move forward and excel in the work place, have vacations -see things, take time to learn about stuff, etc, etc, etc. If all that gets lost because you get bogged down in any one thing, including strip-clubs, that person is on the road to PL'dom.
Golden_Rule
09-03-2008, 03:51 PM
As for the original poster: Siren was describing a retarded kid who had just come into an inheritance and was blowing it on her and the other denizens of Chez Paree.
Chez, in San Fran?
If so I wonder if she knows what happened to the old crew there who I use to share so much info with on the old A.S.S-C newsgroup and IRC chat [so many years ago I don't want to recall how long ago it was]?
The Pope, Bob [insert something here] Smyth, damn - who was the guy who use to wear the dog collar around his neck and ate from a dog dish at the bar {LOL}... old age setting in... and there was this one Betty Page look alike dancer who was so smart and wickedly funny. She mailed me a magazine spread she had shot one time. Incredibly fetching woman, both mentally and physically.
Talk about PL'dom I almost took a red eye out of Newark one night just to fly down and meet them all. Molly [that was her name - maybe I haven't lost all my mind yet :)] amongst them. Al, The Pope, was dangling her, her willingly being dangle, like a carrot on the end of a stick. Oh the promises that were made if I hopped onto that flight. but I was a practical man even then and eventually relented to better judgement. Almost though... almost.
Ah, dem were part and parcel of the gloriously misspent days of youth... :) Before I became jaded, cursed to walk the earth knowing too much about people. {LOL} [trust me on this, I am laughing at myself here]
Golden_Rule
09-03-2008, 04:01 PM
Siren was a participant in the ASS-C newsgroup back in the mid to late 90's. So unless you were reading ASS-C back then, you wouldn't remember her. PL was from an email she meant to send to another dancer but mistakenly posted to the newsgroup. Who knows where she is now, but her legacy lives on.
That answers that question.
THAT Siren. I recall now. We actually even chatted on the ASS-C IRC channel any number of times.
Thanks for the memory jog. :)
Golden_Rule
09-03-2008, 04:05 PM
No. And I post it because... well it is true and accurate. The fact that I am a stripper doesn't mean that I am illiterate or incapable of knowing things that aren't stripping.
Jenny, there is absolutely no doubt that you are one particularly bright person.
It isn't about having bullets in the gun though. It's about where you aim them.
wishing well...
BTW, totally agree about calling a spade a spade and not a rake.
xdamage
09-03-2008, 04:08 PM
If prostitution were legal, this guy would not have been able to find two defenseless women on the street to murder. (OK, so then maybe he would have gone somewhere else and killed someone else. Who knows.) And if prostitution were legal, the streetwalkers would be making way more than fifty bucks, and their customers would not be risking disease and arrest.
Not that I disagree with your overall point about risks, but "suck and fuck" with a prostitute is around 50-75 Euros in the Netherlands. Before the dollar dropped, about $50. This is what happens in free markets when supply is plentiful and the entry requirements are low. Competition goes up, prices come down. So unless legalization includes price controls and controls to prevent too much competition per geographical region, this is a market that is likely to see prices drop.
I think SC prices mostly stay high because of lots of zoning laws that limit their availability. If the government would stop sticking their nose into it and let anyone open up SCs anywhere the market would do what markets do... become filled with competitors who are must compete for price or offer more (i.e., more attractive women, better service, more mileage, something to compete).
Me, I think people fuck without protection now so I am not even so sure the government should be regulating that just because money is exchanged.
Golden_Rule
09-03-2008, 04:16 PM
I think SC prices mostly stay high because of lots of zoning laws that limit their availability. If the government would stop sticking their nose into it and let anyone open up SCs anywhere the market would do what markets do... become filled with competitors who are must compete for price or offer more (i.e., more attractive women, better service, more mileage, something to compete).
Me, I think people fuck without protection now so I am not even so sure the government should be regulating that just because money is exchanged.
Talk about thread drift. :)
If that happened, and it won't for obvious reasons, it would be great for dancers.
Right now club owners, who get tip ins, can have as many dancers as they want pacing their floors and LD rooms. Makes no difference to them as long as they have enough good ones to draw a crowd.
Make strip-clubs more ubiquitous than they are and the talent pool spreads thin. You might even see dancers start to get set fees again, and wouldn't that be cool for the dancers.
doc-catfish
09-03-2008, 04:28 PM
Not that I disagree with your overall point about risks, but "suck and fuck" with a prostitute is around 50-75 Euros in the Netherlands. Before the dollar dropped, about $50. This is what happens in free markets when supply is plentiful and the entry requirements are low. Competition goes up, prices come down. So unless legalization includes price controls and controls to prevent too much competition per geographical region, this is a market that is likely to see prices drop.
Yes, but the thing is, just as a free market can create a ceiling above which a customer will no longer consider it worth it to buy, it can also create a floor below which a vendor no longer sees it worth it to sell. If a sex worker's average earnings potential for a night's work was on par with what mainstream work (without all the ostracization and other occupational hazards) was paying, well, a lot of sex workers would probably get out of the biz. The ones that remain well, probably would be a bit lacking in the quality department. To a degree in many parts of the country we're already seeing this.
xdamage
09-03-2008, 04:29 PM
Talk about thread drift. :)
If that happened, and it won't for obvious reasons, it would be great for dancers.
Right now club owners, who get tip ins, can have as many dancers as they want pacing their floors and LD rooms. Makes no difference to them as long as they have enough good ones to draw a crowd.
Make strip-clubs more ubiquitous than they are and the talent pool spreads thin. You might even see dancers start to get set fees again, and wouldn't that be cool for the dancers.
Could be, though... the one thing that perhaps no dancer expects, in the Netherlands strip clubs are nearly gone, replaced mostly by live sex show clubs. Thing is a prostitute will gladly take money to pretend to like customers, dance a little, talk, no sex, if that is what he wants. But the women who won't go all the way mostly are driven out of business by those who will. They lose far too much business to "10"s who come into the country and will do it all.
So you never know... chaos theory applies to economies and societies as well as weather ;) Patterns do emerge but sometimes the outcomes are not always predictable. In our society it could turn out different because we are still squeamish about seeing a woman's uncovered breast on public TV. In other less prudish cultures, this is yawn material, and paying to see a women strip but do nothing more is less interesting. It's not just the dancers that drive this, but also the mindset of the customers.
xdamage
09-03-2008, 04:34 PM
Yes, but the thing is, just as a free market can create a ceiling at which a customer will no longer consider it worth it to buy, it can also create a floor at which a vendor no longer sees it worth it to sell. If a sex worker's average earnings potential for a night's work was on par with what mainstream work (without all the ostracization and other occupational hazards) was paying, well, a lot of sex workers would probably get out of the biz. The ones that remain well, probably would be a bit lacking in the quality department. To a degree in many parts of the country we're already seeing this.
True, and we live in wealthy nations. But if the economy turns to shit, in a generation it could all change. Indeed prostitution in the Netherlands is fed by women who can't make enough to eat working legit jobs in their own countries, so 50-75 Euros x a few customers a day is a small fortune. Kind of like what happens here with workers coming in from Mexico. They get jobs even if it is illegal because many buyers flock to those who will provide the same service at a lower price.
Bob Cox
09-03-2008, 07:10 PM
Whatever reason a guy goes to the SC, whether it's for fun, entertainment, emotional or physical intimacy, he's lonely, etc., then more power to him. The guy who denies himself these things is the real PL.
I would classify guys who go to SCs as Pathetic Winners. Sure, we act pathetic sometimes, but at least we're winners for getting what we want as explained in the previous paragraph.
PW = Pathetic Winner
(or Pussy Whipped). :D
threlayer
09-03-2008, 08:26 PM
We are all PLs because they do to us, profitably, what we cannot do to them. And that is separate us from our money and yet at the same time give us nothing of lasting value. We have no respect from them as a consquence, hence the moniker. Some straight-laced guys call us that too; unfortunately they are right.
I remember ASS-C too.
xdamage
09-03-2008, 08:45 PM
Here is a common illusion -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necker_cube
If you look at it one way, the cube appears outside in... but then your mind can flip it, and see it inside out.
In the same way, from one point of view we are PLs for paying for it. But flip it in your mind, and strippers are the PLs for giving it up for money.
in one way we see the sexuality as having value that transcends what can be bought, but in another way we see it is just a commodity, worth no more then the highest bidder is willing to pay.
Who is the PL then? I think it is just a tug-of-war stand off, both parties hoping to save face. On the one side, you can never have me for free. On the other, I can have you for a few bucks. Which side you choose to see it from depends mostly on whichever is most self pleasing.
3-Legged Man
09-03-2008, 08:56 PM
who was the guy who use to wear the dog collar around his neck and ate from a dog dish at the bar {LOL}... old age setting in...
Would that be At0mic d0g?
;D
Bob Cox
09-04-2008, 04:59 AM
Whatever reason a guy goes to the SC, whether it's for fun, entertainment, emotional or physical intimacy, he's lonely, etc., then more power to him. The guy who denies himself these things is the real PL.
I would classify guys who go to SCs as Pathetic Winners. Sure, we act pathetic sometimes, but at least we're winners for getting what we want as explained in the previous paragraph.
PW = Pathetic Winner
(or Pussy Whipped). :D
Here is a common illusion -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necker_cube
In the same way, from one point of view we are PLs for paying for it. But flip it in your mind, and strippers are the PLs for giving it up for money.
in one way we see the sexuality as having value that transcends what can be bought, but in another way we see it is just a commodity, worth no more then the highest bidder is willing to pay.
Who is the PL then? I think it is just a tug-of-war stand off, both parties hoping to save face. On the one side, you can never have me for free. On the other, I can have you for a few bucks. Which side you choose to see it from depends mostly on whichever is most self pleasing.
Paying for what, entertainment? Well, yes, no one will entertain you for free, not even wives. Men are always paying for it, and a married guy pays 10 times as much. Whatever a guy is buying in the SC is a great deal for him because there's no committment or real relationship involved, and it's cheap and convenient.
Men need physical intimacy with a woman and women need food, clothing, and shelter or its equivalent: money. That's how we're hard-wired. We both are exchanging what the other person needs. It's an equal trade and I see no reason why the guys are the losers in this deal. Because he's paying? Well that's silly, he's always paying and the woman is always selling, even if they're married.
I see no reason to be committed to someone for 50 years in exchange for physical intimacy, or be in a relationship to get it (whatever that is you're looking for in the SC). And if men are always paying, why not choose the pick of the litter: the youngest, hottest woman you can pay for. That's seems like a good deal for the guys.
If the guys are leaving the SCs happy and relieved, and the dancers leave the SCs pissed off, emotionally and physically drained, and disliking her customers, then who's getting the better deal here and who's the real loser?
Aren't we guys the winners in this transaction and the dancers the losers? We could say that the customers are the Pathetic Winners (PWs) and the dancers are the Pathetic Losers (PLs).
This last sentence is not directed at anyone, xdamage, I just thought it was funny:
Who cares if the guy thinks that the dancer really likes him. Big fucking deal! Who gives a fuck about stupid shit like that!? :laughing:
threlayer
09-04-2008, 09:15 PM
^^ Obviously you are new here.
Men need physical intimacy with a woman and women need food, clothing, and shelter or its equivalent: money. That's how we're hard-wired. We both are exchanging what the other person needs. This is true in the stripclubs, but it is not true in real life where women need sexual intimacy too, but most need an emotional attachment. However, in stripclubs no one seems to get much respect. Hence my post above.
fancygirl
09-04-2008, 10:44 PM
I use the term PL
rarely. typically in situations where the client
spends the whole VIP time saying he understands
(when the topic comes up) that I will not be joining
him later for sex and THEN spends the last ten minutes
being a whiny bitch crybaby when he finally gets that I
was being serious about not going home with him.
"but...but I paid all this money!!!"
"yup. and I was honest the entire time about what you were getting with that
money."
Dirty Ernie
09-04-2008, 11:10 PM
Would that be At0mic d0g?
;D
I thought it was Bubba and the HMS at the CP
Golden_Rule
09-05-2008, 02:38 AM
We are all PLs because they do to us, profitably, what we cannot do to them. And that is separate us from our money and yet at the same time give us nothing of lasting value. We have no respect from them as a consquence, hence the moniker. Some straight-laced guys call us that too; unfortunately they are right.
I remember ASS-C too.
???
A meal is gone when it is completed. Does it have no lasting value? It feeds me. If it was tasty it delighted my senses.
I don't under pay for what I get. I don't over pay. I give value for value.
So how am I being taken? How am I taking? I am giving to get and getting as I give.
Quid pro quo.
Golden_Rule
09-05-2008, 02:48 AM
Who is the PL then? I think it is just a tug-of-war stand off, both parties hoping to save face. On the one side, you can never have me for free. On the other, I can have you for a few bucks. Which side you choose to see it from depends mostly on whichever is most self pleasing.
Absolutely. But why?
Why is it necessary to save face in such situation?
Likely it is because each needs to present superiority in the situation to compensate for feeling inferior.
If neither feels inferior than neither needs to present the air of being superior, no need to do anything but relax and enjoy the fact that each is getting what they want while giving what the other wants.
Very hard to do. Like swinging. It only works when the couple involved has their shit so tightly together that they don't get jealous of one another's goings on.
I was a swinger for a long time. Even helped run a support network for swingers. I can't tell you how many couples I saw crash and burn simply because very few people work that way. Insecurities, guilt, suspicions.
The interactions between strippers and clients is no different. Lack of trust on both sides and insecurity truly fucks up what could be a lovely thing. Two people; each wants something, each has something to give. Even exchange. Should be simple as punch.
Nothing wrong with that... except [see above]. :'( /:O
Golden_Rule
09-05-2008, 03:07 AM
It's an equal trade and I see no reason why the guys are the losers in this deal. Because he's paying? Well that's silly, he's always paying and the woman is always selling, even if they're married.
The way I see it you had it right and then sort of lost it in the end.
It is a trade. Equal, if both parties agreed to the values being so before they traded.
When you suggest it is selling, and dancers do this to themselves, the purchaser is set up in a superior position. "The buyers always right." The purchaser is always free to walk way and purchase somewhere else." "Vote with the wallet." Etc and so forth.
There are aspects of that which are correct but pressing it, since we are talking about access to a person here, and that has to be a very personal bit of business for the person relinquishing the access, which is the barter on the other side of the exchange is a touchy situation. Even if it is just an air dance, the person is putting themselves on display for you. I imagine some aspect of this is true for all entertainers, but how much more so when the entertaining is so intimate and up so close?
So, as I suggested above, we start getting into the pressing for a superior position out of feelings of being left in the inferior position, mistrust, etc, that starts to take place leaving no one better off for it when all is said and done.
None of this shit is easy.
It could be.
I suppose that people who have to be made differently before that could be the case though.
Golden_Rule
09-05-2008, 03:11 AM
I thought it was Bubba and the HMS at the CP
Yep. That's it. Bubba. :)
Do you know what happened with that crew? I lost touch with all of them when they had some kind of falling out with the CP owner and moved to another club, which I believe finally closed. This is back in '93 or '94, something like that [if memory serves - and it doesn't :) ].
3-Legged Man
09-05-2008, 04:50 AM
It may be easier to determine the fate of ASS-C and its inmates if you begin a thread clearly labeled for that effort. My own recollections are only as a lurker on the Usenet.
threlayer
09-05-2008, 07:30 PM
It may be easier to determine the fate of ASS-C and its inmates if you begin a thread clearly labeled for that effort....
I know its fate. It turned into flame wars and spam postings like so many newsgroups. I got out of it pretty fast after that nonsense began.
Golden_Rule
09-06-2008, 02:05 AM
I know its fate. It turned into flame wars and spam postings like so many newsgroups. I got out of it pretty fast after that nonsense began.
I left before then actually.
While the personalities were fun there they were also benign. It was fun to gab about what we were thinking, doing, feeling. Just so we could understand ourselves and each other better. Just like what I HOPE to do around here.
It started to change though after the confrontation between the management of Chez and the old group and it became more about confrontation for a bit. I faded away and never came back. So I never saw the end game.
That's why I take breaks from here from time to time. When people insist on making it personal I go away for awhile.
{laughing} To be honest, I sense a vaca coming up if things don't cool down between myself and another soul here. I'd rather take a break than push issues. This is just a website, after all, but I like it and wouldn't want to have to leave permanently because someone made it so polluted for me I couldn't come back.
xdamage
09-06-2008, 05:32 AM
Absolutely. But why?
Why is it necessary to save face in such situation?
Likely it is because each needs to present superiority in the situation to compensate for feeling inferior. :'( /:O
Could be GR. In theory what you wrote sounds good. I mean we could imagine, what if sex workers and customers treated this exchange no differently then a musician playing for an audience, one the entertainer, one the entertainee, it is a symbiotic relationship.
But the reality seems to be this is rarely the case. It looks like we humans tend to have a lot of deep, possibly the deepest in us, feelings associated with sex. Could be this is our human nature, buried in our multi-hundred million year old genes, and almost as surely as we will feel strong emotions about our children, most have the same about sex.
Plus sex is more then just a means of reproducing. If reproduction was the only goal, more likely we'd all be capable of self reproduction, but why has nature repeated evolved the split of the sexes?
Sexuality can sold as a commodity, but like so many other things, there can be trade offs. Sexuality can also be traded in exchange for a closer emotional bond with another human being which means security, protection, an increased probability that a man will stay to care for a child, and so on... Do people really trade sex for all those other reasons too? I think absolutely yes.
But in part, that works because it is seen like a diamond, a rare thing, not easily obtained, so when given, it has exceptional value. But if sex is too easily obtained as a commodity in a society, the diamond begins to look more like a cheap bauble, something easily had for a few dollars. And taken to the extreme, I am not sure women as a whole want men to see sex as nothing more then a commodity either. If we all saw it that way, a significant point of exchange, power, and control would be lost to them.
Some sex workers than can totally detach and see it as nothing more then a professional trade, but may be they are the rarity rather then the norm? Many do it for money, but among them even, many say they must use drugs to do it, or that it hurts them emotionally.
Where am I going with this? No where in particular other then it could be that sexuality for money will never be as simple and emotionally neutral as many other businesses. That sex workers and sex users look down on each other may be persist for eons because what is behind it runs too deep for the majority of people to just treat it as a business transaction.
xdamage
09-06-2008, 06:07 AM
I clipped out a lot Bob, not because I disagreed, just too much to comment on...
Men need physical intimacy with a woman and women need food, clothing, and shelter or its equivalent: money. That's how we're hard-wired. We both are exchanging what the other person needs.
:laughing:
I commented on this indirectly in my last post above. There is indeed some of that going on.
Like I also commented above though too, if you look at it strictly from the self centered point of view, it is in women's best interest if they can both a.) sell sex for profit, and at the same time b.) men feel it is of significant value so that when/if a woman feels those old genetic urges to raise a child, she has a point of leverage to cause the man to stay and help raise the child.
Commoditizing sex is a tricky bit of fence walking because if it works too well, becomes too neutral, men really could just see it as thing to be bought, and with that, women would have lost the later point of leverage.
Let us not forget, we are still essentially primates -
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/chb/lectures/anthl_11.html
"And that neatly brings us onto the question of reproductive strategies. In animals, the ultimate goal is to maximise reproductive success. In primates, this is generally achieved in females by having few young, and investing a great deal of time and effort into rearing them (lactating etc.). This large investment in a few offspring is often described as K-selected. Male primates, in general, take very little interest in helping to rear offspring. Their approach to maximising their reproductive success is to father as many offspring as possible and not to invest much in individual ones."
Strangely it appears female humans have managed to cause some reversal of this trend, and maybe even are slowly but surely evolving males to be more likely to stay longer and help raise children longer. Sex worker commoditzation though can be in competition with that un-spoken goal. The value of sex to males is mostly in that it is hard to get, or hard to get "good sex". The easier, cheaper it is to get, the less value it has.
It's an equal trade and I see no reason why the guys are the losers in this deal. Because he's paying? Well that's silly, he's always paying and the woman is always selling, even if they're married.
...
Aren't we guys the winners in this transaction and the dancers the losers?
This is why I posted the link to the Necker cube illusion ;) It is actually quite easy to flip our minds to see the situation from either position. But I am not sure either is really true because in the end, this would all be moot if there were not males and females, sex workers and sex buyers. They (we) both need each other.
bem401
09-06-2008, 07:08 AM
While the above statement may not be true, what makes a PL a Pathetic Loser? What makes a "regular" strip club patron NOT a PL?
What constitues a PL depends on the person using the term. Customers would have one defintion of PL, dancers would have another, less restrictive view of what a PL is, and the public at large would have an even less restrictive view that basically includes everyone in the place.