View Full Version : People Who Eat Healthy/Raw/Vegan/Whatever... How do you do it and what made you!???
Emily
08-16-2008, 12:23 AM
:O Wow. I enjoy fake chicken and soy ice cream and I am far from ignorant. I'm about as conscious a consumer as you will ever encounter. I know Emily likes these things and she's probably almost as wise and learned as me. What gives?
Actually, I think I might be somewhat retarded and I am not really a healthy eater.
Just let me eat my chemicals in peace. They are very tasty :P
vixenfire
08-16-2008, 05:29 AM
:yes: That's exactly why I went vegetarian. I've only been one for 4 months or so, but I don't miss meat whatsoever. When I go anywhere near the meat section at the store it makes me shudder and grosses me out.
I was talking to the DJ last night about this and he said his BIL got a master's degree in poultry science and went to work for Tyson. His BIL said that if you took a tour through there, you'd never eat chicken again. They have machines that they put the chickens in and it pulls out all their feathers and it's all just so inhumane :(
ETA: watch this, and I guarantee you'll at least think twice about eating meat.
What I would really like to know is how widespread that kind of stuff is(the video). Sure, it may happen, but since PETA's a piece of shit I dont trust them one bit to remain fair and unbiased. Just to make a few examples, PETA wants all experiments on animals to stop, which would effectively cut our entire medical science down by 90%. At the same time, at least one of their leaders stays alive through medications which would not exist if it wasnt for that kind of thing. They also kill off more than 2/3rds of the animals they "rescue", so their speeches on animal liberation and rights are nonsense.
Please dont go vegetarian because of PETA and those videos, do it for your body or better documented research. :)
LamayaCoxx
08-16-2008, 05:48 AM
I am 100% vegetarian and have been so for 4 months.
I stopped eating meat because I got tired of breakouts, IBS, low energy and bad skin.
To me, meat is not food, something inedible (like cardboard).
When I go to a supermarket, I go straight to the produce section.
ahmeerah
08-16-2008, 06:52 AM
^^ I was the same way before! I swore I was allergic to animal products at one point. Then through lots of study and research I discovered what the real culprit was. I love my skin now! The slightest bit of anything used to break me out.
Emily
08-16-2008, 11:02 AM
What I would really like to know is how widespread that kind of stuff is(the video). Sure, it may happen, but since PETA's a piece of shit I dont trust them one bit to remain fair and unbiased. Just to make a few examples, PETA wants all experiments on animals to stop, which would effectively cut our entire medical science down by 90%. At the same time, at least one of their leaders stays alive through medications which would not exist if it wasnt for that kind of thing. They also kill off more than 2/3rds of the animals they "rescue", so their speeches on animal liberation and rights are nonsense.
Please dont go vegetarian because of PETA and those videos, do it for your body or better documented research. :)
Of course PETA is biased. They have an agenda (shhhhh, don't tell anyone!) to prevent cruelty towards animals.
If you want to eat meat under the premise that it's okay because farm animal abuse is made up....sure, whatever makes you feel better. But sorry girl, I'm not buying whatever you're selling. I make my eating choices because I feel it's the right thing to do. You don't choose veganism on accident. It takes a lot of dedication you really have to be committed to the cause. It's not easy, but it's not supposed to be. I used the videos as an example of a tool I use to keep me focused. I didn't mean to suggest that it was the one and only reason to go veg. Come on. I'm kind of offended that twice now people have assumed I haven't mindlessly chosen this path.
Dottie does a better job defending their politics than I do, so I'll leave that to her.
miabella
08-16-2008, 11:45 AM
PETA is horribly dishonest. that doesn't mean factory farming (like, oh, the human workers worked to death for 2 buck chuck) isn't bad. PETA doesn't have to be dishonest when Big Ag is verifiably awful without doctoring videos. that's why a lot of people who are veg*n in protest of Big Agriculture loathe PETA-- their lies do make it difficult to confront the very real damage done to workers and animals in Big Agriculture. and i include Big Organic in that as well, as they also tend to ignore worker abuses.
whether it's animals (chickens, pigs, etc) or human workers (animal and plant farming, but somewhat more plant-related stuff because there's just more labor attached) factory farming is pretty awful.
i can't eat eggs unless i know whose backyard or small farm they came out of because i've seen industrial egg farming and the chickens with crippled legs sitting in their own waste. i can actually eat free range eggs in quantity, because they haven't tortured the animals into pumping out eggs until they die of it. it tastes like egg, not chemically horror.
i just prefer a limited diet where i can see where all my food come from and how the animals and workers are treated rather than a year-round diverse diet full of stuff shipped from wherever at insane expenses of fuel and cost in human suffering. you have to get pretty local before workers stop being harmed in the production of organic produce (because it's low-yield and high-labor).
RoseLeigh
08-16-2008, 12:20 PM
true, but also historically, pre-industrial humans ate meat because it was obligatory for survival- they hunted, raised and killed it themselves. Also, our bloodtype and DNA has changed a lot over the past couple centuries, which means veganism as a 14th century medieval knight wasn't plausible and certainly wasn't the best and most efficient dietary choice for a thriving body.
Untrue.Plenty of older societies, including medieval Europe and ancient Greek did NOT eat a lot of meat, or sometimes any for most of the year other than festival days. Grains, figs, cheese, beans etc were the staples. Eating of mass quantities of meat came with industrialization and machines (less work needed for farming, more time, increase of commerce, better storage and preservation options).
People who were hunter-gathers/nomads are of course, the exception, but due to lack of storage options meat would not generally be the main meal except after a sucessful hunt.
vixenfire
08-16-2008, 12:45 PM
Of course PETA is biased. They have an agenda (shhhhh, don't tell anyone!) to prevent cruelty towards animals.
If you want to eat meat under the premise that it's okay because farm animal abuse is made up....sure, whatever makes you feel better. But sorry girl, I'm not buying whatever you're selling. I make my eating choices because I feel it's the right thing to do. You don't choose veganism on accident. It takes a lot of dedication you really have to be committed to the cause. It's not easy, but it's not supposed to be. I used the videos as an example of a tool I use to keep me focused. I didn't mean to suggest that it was the one and only reason to go veg. Come on. I'm kind of offended that twice now people have assumed I haven't mindlessly chosen this path.
Dottie does a better job defending their politics than I do, so I'll leave that to her.
I dont eat meat either, so thats not it. As I said, I dont think animal abuse is made up, in fact I know it isnt, but PETA's hypocrisy and biased propaganda simply isnt a good source to base opinions on. I am sure you have well thought out reasons to be a vegetarian, I was just commenting on how PETA is brought up, because frankly they suck. As I just said, they want all animal experiments to stop, yet their very leadership and undoubtedly large numbers of members benefit from the medical research that wouldnt exist without it. They even kill off the majority of the animals they save, while at the same time saying that all animals should be released in order to freely live their lives as they choose. There is even documentation of PETA funding the animal liberation front so they can burn down research labs.
All that said, animal cruelty obviously isnt a fantasy and there ARE real reasons to cut meat....just...not...PETA. :-[
miabella
08-16-2008, 12:57 PM
^^^ thank you. I abhor miss newkirk, and their fake no-kill shelters (where they kill animals anyway).
keira0304
08-16-2008, 01:11 PM
:O Wow. I enjoy fake chicken and soy ice cream and I am far from ignorant. I'm about as conscious a consumer as you will ever encounter. I know Emily likes these things and she's probably almost as wise and learned as me. What gives?
I didn't mean to say that all vegans who eat fake meat and dairy substitutes are ignorant, i meant to say that I do not like when people become vegan just to be trendy and then eat vegan junk food--- there are a lot of hipster kids in portland who would be vegan just because it was the trendy straight edge thing to do
Dottie Rebel
08-16-2008, 01:11 PM
Dottie does a better job defending their politics than I do, so I'll leave that to her.
Thanks, Emily! But this isn't a thread about PETA. It is a thread about how to be more healthy. I'm not going to get baited into an argument with people who keep regurgitating the same tired old misconceptions about PETA.
For anyone lurking---please remember this thread the next time you insist that PETA/animal rights activists/vegetarians try to shove their agenda down your throat.
;)
Dottie Rebel
08-16-2008, 01:19 PM
I didn't mean to say that all vegans who eat fake meat and dairy substitutes are ignorant, i meant to say that I do not like when people become vegan just to be trendy and then eat vegan junk food--- there are a lot of hipster kids in portland who would be vegan just because it was the trendy straight edge thing to do
You are castigating these people for being trendy and yet you want to keep the vegan club "exclusive" to those who chose it for reasons that you consider acceptable? That sounds like tomayto/tomahto to me.
Not all vegans are so for health or the environment. Some couldn't give a shit about eating healthy, they just respect animals. Maybe some think it's the cool thing to do. Maybe other think it will give them superpowers and bring them riches. What does it matter? For however long those little posers remain vegan, animals are better for it. It doesn't matter why.
A huge amount of the people now buying into the green movement are just doing so because Oprah told them it was the next cool thing. You want them to stop, too?
Emily
08-16-2008, 02:06 PM
Thanks, Emily! But this isn't a thread about PETA. It is a thread about how to be more healthy. I'm not going to get baited into an argument with people who keep regurgitating the same tired old misconceptions about PETA.
For anyone lurking---please remember this thread the next time you insist that PETA/animal rights activists/vegetarians try to shove their agenda down your throat.
;)
true. I actually try to avoid bringing it up most of the time if I'm eating with people that I don't know very well. I just say I'm a "picky eater" because I want to eat my fucking meal in peace!
I didn't mean to say that all vegans who eat fake meat and dairy substitutes are ignorant, i meant to say that I do not like when people become vegan just to be trendy and then eat vegan junk food--- there are a lot of hipster kids in portland who would be vegan just because it was the trendy straight edge thing to do
I am really having a hard time seeing why this would bother you! How does it affect you or animals? I actually think it's GREAT that being vegan is seen as something trendy and not weird.
callah44
08-16-2008, 02:16 PM
I tried to go vegan once. It was going swimmingly until someone set an entire plate of ribs right in front of me. I apologize all you vegan eaters - I know it's pathetic. From that moment on I didn't give a second thought as to whether I could do it again successfully.:-\
Emiloo
08-16-2008, 04:37 PM
I've been a veggie for 3 1/2 years. It ain't that hard, haha. (For me anyway.) I just decided that the only foods I'll eat are the kinds that I could harvest with my own hands, and I definitely could not kill an animal to eat it. Too messy.
Dottie Rebel
08-16-2008, 05:35 PM
^^^I think this is a great concept. How many meat eaters could hold a captive bolt gun to a cow's head and skin it, or hang a chicken up to be sliced by a razor through the neck? Oh, I'm sure there are many. But imagine if all the ones who are too cowardly or senstive to do the killing themselves would stop eating meat...
ahmeerah
08-16-2008, 06:24 PM
^^^ More than you think! Think of how people are when they get ravenously hungry.
Dottie Rebel
08-16-2008, 06:44 PM
Eh. I guess I'm cursed with the knowledge that all animals have feelings and miss their loves ones when they die. Not just cats.
ahmeerah
08-16-2008, 06:57 PM
^^^ Was that a dig at me? Ah well, my fellow health-conscious associate. I feel like there's a difference between killing for the purpose of sustenance (food, clothing, etc in a humane way) vs the death of an animal due to disease.
Indigenous people and others who value the closed-chain of nature have it right in my opinion. We're all interlinked and provide for each other in different ways. I believe in the food chain too.
miabella
08-17-2008, 12:45 AM
i'd think vegan diets were more objectively healthy (as opposed to subjectively healthier for individuals sometimes) if they were the majority diet of olympic athletes, especially since so many of the 'popular' events (and plenty of the less-televised ones) do require high-carbohydrate diets and less in the way of protein. that is, the world's most physically superb athletes would eagerly all be vegan if they thought for a second it could give them an edge. but that so few overall choose vegan or even vegetarian diets is quite telling, especially since dietary changes and other types of training advances are picked up immediately as a rule, often long before a second olympics rolls around.
it's actually quite surprising, i thought there would be more, but they are just extremely rare, which itself stands out in an arena of such competition. curious.
Dottie Rebel
08-17-2008, 01:43 AM
An old, outdated list:
http://www.veganathlete.com/vegan_vegetarian_athletes.php
Another, possible crossover:
http://www.gotohealth.com/athletes/veg_athletes.cfm
ahmeerah
08-17-2008, 04:00 AM
^^^ I'd be curious to know how long they've been strict vegan (if they are strict vegan) and how healthy their organs, glands and connective tissue are. If they are endurance athletes and natually slow-oxidizers, being vegetarian could work - or even vegan for a short time.
bellasera
08-17-2008, 05:59 PM
I am really having a hard time seeing why this would bother you! How does it affect you or animals? I actually think it's GREAT that being vegan is seen as something trendy and not weird.
I agree, as someone who loves animals I don't care why vegans don't eat meat, I just think its fantastic if they don't! I love my meat substitutes, and I wouldn't know what to feed my bf if I didn't use them. I think they are a billion times better than useless killing. And even if it is 'trendy' you have to start somewhere right?
Dottie Rebel
08-17-2008, 06:17 PM
If they are endurance athletes and natually slow-oxidizers, being vegetarian could work - or even vegan for a short time.
Can I see the research you've done/discovered to back up that claim? And how many people can justify their consumption of animal products on account of their rigorous olympic althetic training?
Finally--the health of their connective tissues? It seems you are digging here. Look around the next time you're at a mall or, hell, anywhere! Tell me you think the people around you look healthy. No, 2/3 of them are are overweight and they are dropping like flies from heart diesase, cancer, stroke and diabetes. You don't have to look at their connective tissues under a microscope to determine that their health is fucked.
ahmeerah
08-17-2008, 06:52 PM
Of course most people are overweight, dropping like flies, etc -- they're eating shit and they're not drinking enough water. Most people are dehydrated inter- and intracellularly.
There is plenty of research out there in support of the things I've stated. Regarding my statement on the connective tissues, I'm not "digging." I've already dug. I'll just say it simply: When you eat in a way that doesn't support physiology, there is stress. When there is stress (physical, mental, emotional), there is inflammation. When there's inflammation the connective tissues (namely the fascia) is affected, dehydrated, solidifies and causes pain. The fascia connects everything to everything. Nothing in our bodies goes untouched when it comes to fascia. It allows every part of the body to communicate with every other part of the body. It works with the nervous system and I'm guessing you know how important the nervous system is.
You can eat in a way that encourages further inflammation (eating in a way unsupportive of your metabolic type or eating things that your body is intolerant to) or you can eat in a way that does the reverse. Everyone is different. One person's inflammation might be sinusitis. Another person's might be digestive. ANother person's might affect them on a more hormonal level. Everything is connected in some way but the degree and area of inflammation will vary from person to person. One person's medicine is another person's poison.
You can do your own research on fascia and inflammatory response. You can even look into metabolic typing through a raw/vegan source: Gabriel Cousens, in his book "Conscious Eating." While he is a raw/vegan, he supports most *current* research, as well, but it seems as though he recommends raw/veganism for spiritual reasons. Hence his book: "Spiritual Nutrition." He breaks down living as a raw/vegan in the most balanced way for various metabolic types and doshas. But it is complex and you need access to a lot of unique foods and supplements most people do not easily have access to or can afford. Plus, some nutrients are only found in animal products (e.g. Vit A -- beta-carotene only works under specific physiological conditions/health status and B12 to name a couple) -- even if those animal products are simply ghee/butter, eggs or goat cheese.
I'm not saying you have to kill an animal to get all your nutrients. But if you want to avoid animal products all together, I feel it's best to go about it in an educated fashion so as not to stress the body - leading to inflammation - which ultimately leads to disease or a condition where you cannot thrive. Or you can just live like the monks and other people who spent most of their days in peaceful meditation (zero stress while focusing on the spiritual -- I don't know anyone who lives like this personally).
www.fascia2007.com
www.price-pottenger.com
http://www.westonaprice.org/tour/vegtourindex.html
www.mercola.com -- popular site with good info (but he sells lots of stuff now)
Books you might want to check out:
"Nutrition & Physical Degeneration"
"Clinical Nutrition for pain, inflammation and tissue healing"
"Pottenger's Cats" (there's a video too)
Look up anything on Metabolic Typing too.
I know this post is wordy but I'm trying to be as concise and straight-to-the point as possible. And I need to go to bed!
cutey5032
08-17-2008, 09:04 PM
Shit, so I just went to the grocery store and picked up all kinds of healthy stuff. Veggies, Annies pasta, and fake chicken (yes I will be one of those people who eats fake chicken, sorry guys but whatever). when I grabbed the soy milk, my boyfriend said "What the fuck is that?" And I had to say "Um....fake milk?" He gave me a look like I had 3 heads.
Dottie Rebel
08-17-2008, 09:11 PM
^^I think it's weirder to drink bovine mammary secretions, but to each their own. :D
Emily
08-17-2008, 09:27 PM
cutey....my boyfriend is a redneck into "huntin and fishin" and I introduced him to soymilk.
Now, when he goes to starbucks, he pays the extra 50 cents for soymilk. Your guy will come around. :D
mollyzmoon
08-17-2008, 09:42 PM
Hey, I took my 'meat and potatoes' loving man, the guy who actually pauses to drool over the Keg advertisement in GQ, to THREE vegan restaurant meals in the last month, and he totally enjoyed all of them.
Possibilities!!
I don't care about my health, really...I'm the type of girl who smokes sometimes because 'I like smoking'. BUT I feel ethically terrible over my food choices, so I try to make better ones. I'm like 85% vegetarian now, which I know is 'not good enough', but let's be honest here- if everyone in North American cut down at least 50% of their meat intake, there would be no need for factory farms, you know? The idea of eating flesh doesn't repulse me, but torture does.
Anyways, I found this AMAZING vegan restaurant this weekend. I almost want to get take out from there everyday. Honestly, I was skeptical, but the food was SOOO good and easy on my delicate digestion, I feel like I might just be able to go vegan after all. I wish to hell I could cook though. Far as I can tell, healthier, ethical choices just take a little more planning.
mollyzmoon
08-17-2008, 09:55 PM
That said, in modern times, people still do have a wide range of blood types and genetic differences in the way we assimilate proteins into our bodies, so while i thrive and do my best physically and emotionally on a high raw vegan diet, another person with an O+ blood type and western european lineage would probably thrive on a diet including fish and poultry. I encourage consciousness of consumption over mindless veganism anyways- I would rather see 100 people eating organically farmed, hormone free, compassionately raised fish and chicken than 1 ignorant militant vegan eating fake chicken and soy ice cream.
It's interesting, because I'm O+, and my personal history indicates that I don't thrive as a vegan AT ALL. I got so anemic, my skin was see through. I looked like a goth kid painted white, and I could barely walk a flight of stairs. My b12 and hemoglobin were through the floor, and that happened in less than six months. Really, I'd prefer to give up dairy and wheat, which makes me feel healthier, but find an ethical source of meat. Wild, plentiful game is the best I can come up with.
And even still, I know that I stay okay with a SMALL amount of meat. I have the most carnivorous lineage possible, and I still don't need to eat meat more than a few times a week. Like I said, if everyone cut down that much, imagine the difference? Like don't scream "GIVE IT ALL UP", even if we should, but say 'hey, do you need to eat meat twice a day? everyday? fuck no'
glitzy
08-17-2008, 09:59 PM
i am transitioning to eating a higher percentage of raw foods (i'd say i'm at 70% now), & i have found that the best way to consume more raw food without getting bored it through combining things, like:
- peppers & mushrooms dipped in hummus
- raw smoothies w/ almond milk, raw chocolate, & the fruits of your choice
- carrots & almond butter
OH! & another thing: COCONUT BLISS! it's like ice cream, but not. it isn't raw, but it is vegan, made from pure ingredients, & better than real ice cream.
mollyzmoon
08-17-2008, 10:03 PM
OKay, sorry for triple posting, but I've re-read the whole thread. This is seriously a dillemma for me that keeps me up at night! lol
I AGREE with the politics in favour of veganism, but I disagree with the premise that animals have a right not to be killed. I agree they have a right not to be tortured.
I think the argument in favour of veganism hinges on the premise that it's a) possible, and b) healthy. Certainly it's possible, as evinced by, you know, India. Is it healthy? For serious, my lips were blue. It's not like I wasn't trying either! I was eating everything I thought I was supposed to, but it wasn't getting through to my blood or something. It was the b12 that I had so much trouble with. I get frustrated because it's not like I won't try because I'm too lazy to live up to my principles, it's more like I worry I'll get that sick again.
I almost want to try it and document my blood work to either prove myself wrong or I dunno...reaffirm what I'm talking about. I mean, fuck it, learning how to be a healthy vegan has got to be easier than learning how to hunt my own wildlife food. I know Peter Singer would say 'suck it up and take a monthly b12 booster', and maybe so.
HoolaTwist
08-17-2008, 10:07 PM
^^^ Was that a dig at me? Ah well, my fellow health-conscious associate. I feel like there's a difference between killing for the purpose of sustenance (food, clothing, etc in a humane way) vs the death of an animal due to disease.
Indigenous people and others who value the closed-chain of nature have it right in my opinion. We're all interlinked and provide for each other in different ways. I believe in the food chain too.
Those people depended on animals for survival. And the did not have cruel factory farming.
ahmeerah
08-18-2008, 04:17 AM
^^^ I've never defended cruel factory farming. Have you read ANY of my posts?
And people depended on those animals for survival because they needed to keep their strength and reslilience up. What would make you think people don't need/want to keep their strength and resilience up now? I guess the difference now is that people (at least in the US) run on Starbucks.
ahmeerah
08-18-2008, 04:21 AM
I think the argument in favour of veganism hinges on the premise that it's a) possible, and b) healthy. Certainly it's possible, as evinced by, you know, India. Is it healthy? For serious, my lips were blue. It's not like I wasn't trying either! I was eating everything I thought I was supposed to, but it wasn't getting through to my blood or something. It was the b12 that I had so much trouble with. I get frustrated because it's not like I won't try because I'm too lazy to live up to my principles, it's more like I worry I'll get that sick again.
I almost want to try it and document my blood work to either prove myself wrong or I dunno...reaffirm what I'm talking about. I mean, fuck it, learning how to be a healthy vegan has got to be easier than learning how to hunt my own wildlife food. I know Peter Singer would say 'suck it up and take a monthly b12 booster', and maybe so.
Veganism in India -- they eat dairy. They aren't traditionally vegan. You could say they are vegetarian. And the Jains weren't eating a particular way for health reasons from what I know. And milk products don't appear to be directly prohibited in Jainism either.
I was vegetarian and then vegan for a LONG time. It all started back in 4th grade (I'm 32 now) when my teacher told me how they made hotdogs and then visiting a dairy farm. I do not condone the general food/farming industry by any means but I seek and encourage optimal heath. I do not feel optimal health can be achieved by eating unhappy, mistreated animals. That's ingesting bad energy. But through my studies and after talking to the many holistic health practitioners I know, I'm aware that veganism is not the way to go for optimal health.
If optimal health/resilience isn't your thing - then, that's great. If optimal health is your thing, I'd do more research on the topic from both sides of the coin like I did. It took me a while to finally become convinced that my vegan ways were doing me more harm than good (for my own body chemistry).
ahmeerah
08-18-2008, 04:24 AM
It's interesting, because I'm O+, and my personal history indicates that I don't thrive as a vegan AT ALL. I got so anemic, my skin was see through. I looked like a goth kid painted white, and I could barely walk a flight of stairs. My b12 and hemoglobin were through the floor, and that happened in less than six months. Really, I'd prefer to give up dairy and wheat, which makes me feel healthier, but find an ethical source of meat. Wild, plentiful game is the best I can come up with.
And even still, I know that I stay okay with a SMALL amount of meat. I have the most carnivorous lineage possible, and I still don't need to eat meat more than a few times a week. Like I said, if everyone cut down that much, imagine the difference? Like don't scream "GIVE IT ALL UP", even if we should, but say 'hey, do you need to eat meat twice a day? everyday? fuck no'
I agree with you about people needing to eat more ethically and moderately!
The food industry as a whole sucks.
miabella
08-18-2008, 10:28 AM
also, mollyzmoon, don't feel you have to hunt your own food for meat eating to be ok. all the vegans i know who say this do not grow and make their own plant diet in its entirety. they do not eat food that only grows in their immediate local region, nor do they grow and process it themselves. they go to the store same as everyone else and just buy vegan products, often from vegan branches of megacorps.
i have absolutely never met a single vegan who farmed their entire diet, but i have met plenty who expect that of omnivores. it's a fallacious verbal trap.
stripper_london
08-18-2008, 11:20 AM
For me I wanted to heal my crohns, after 7 years of flares, periods of living off babyfood and basically non stop steroid treatment, something had to give
12 years junk food veggie, last March went Raw, never looked back.
Was really into the gourmet side however now my diet is far more simplified mostly liquid.
Alissa Cohens book and website were a huge help to me starting out..
If you really want a big changearound in your life..you will give anything a go! I tried the 30 day challenge and kept on going ;D
Dottie Rebel
08-18-2008, 01:40 PM
i have absolutely never met a single vegan who farmed their entire diet, but i have met plenty who expect that of omnivores. it's a fallacious verbal trap.
While I would have no problem growing and personally harvesting plants, I know I would not be able to bludgeon the life out of a sentient animal. Hence, my position. It would be nice if omnivores all had the fortitude to do their own killing instead of hiring agents to do it for them and keep it shielded from their eyes.
Your arguments all seem to discount the fact that animals feel pain.
ahmeerah
08-18-2008, 01:43 PM
For me I wanted to heal my crohns, after 7 years of flares, periods of living off babyfood and basically non stop steroid treatment, something had to give
12 years junk food veggie, last March went Raw, never looked back.
Was really into the gourmet side however now my diet is far more simplified mostly liquid.
Alissa Cohens book and website were a huge help to me starting out..
If you really want a big changearound in your life..you will give anything a go! I tried the 30 day challenge and kept on going ;D
Alissa Cohen has some good stuff. :) "junk food veggie" - haha.
miabella
08-18-2008, 02:01 PM
While I would have no problem growing and personally harvesting plants, I know I would not be able to bludgeon the life out of a sentient animal. Hence, my position. It would be nice if omnivores all had the fortitude to do their own killing instead of hiring agents to do it for them and keep it shielded from their eyes.
Your arguments all seem to discount the fact that animals feel pain.
plant life feels pain as well. all life feels pain.
now, depending on if you measure pain as humans understand it, not all 'meat' feels pain (such as many varieties of shellfish and some fish and insects, etc). if you measure pain in a somewhat more complex fashion, you find that even plants and bacteria experience pain and shock at being disrupted/cut/destroyed.
sentience is a slippery term, not well defined. animals were defined as non-sentient until extremely recently. as well, some kinds of human were defined as non-sentient and as 'not really feeling pain'. it's not a good measure, because the more information that becomes available, and the more that science progresses, the more of the world of life is found to experience pain, suffering, communication/language, etc.
it is not necessarily accurate to claim less suffering is caused because one causes it to life-forms whose sentience is in a form they aren't able to understand or respond to as easily. an example is eating sprouted plants-- those are the plant's babies, easily the equivalent of 'chicken embryos' or eggs. and they are being eaten while still alive ("the life force of the plant"). it's all living flesh that breathes and even moves.
plants experience pain/shock when they are harvested and picked and eaten (depending on how freshly one eats them), so again, vegans should be taking the burden of that suffering on themselves and harvesting their own diets entirely and completely, if they are going to demand it of omnivores in one specific instance (the gathering of a few very specific meat animals). this never comes up with shellfish or fishing, only with 'cute' meat animals (cows, pigs, chickens, some game animals like rabbits and deer) does the bludgeoning stuff come up. which is interesting.
instead they tolerate human workers being maltreated to harvest their plant-based foods (not to mention the suffering of the flora), and complain about 'factory farming', ignoring the factory farming of produce, including organic produce (a worse situation for the human labor, because again, higher human labor requirements and lower yield).
it is always more complicated and nuanced than some manichean 'vegan good, omnivore bad' binary.
ahmeerah
08-18-2008, 02:12 PM
^^ Well said, Miabella.
cutey5032
08-18-2008, 03:52 PM
Well last night I started my first meal as a vegetarian! Woohoo ----Fake chicken with Annies shells and cheese. AND I just at a gluten free granola bar, and it actually tasted good!! I'm in shock
I'm starting eliminating all meats and fish, and most dairy (but i know theres prob dairy in a bunch of things I don't know about, I gotta learn as I go.)
Dottie Rebel
08-18-2008, 05:10 PM
Woohoo!! That sounds awesome. Fake chicken is a reason to live.
In my vast tastings, I can tell you that Chickette is absolutely the best fake chicken. It comes in a sausage-like pack andn you can do anything with it--chicken and dumplings, fried chicken, stir-fries, whatever. It's amazing.
Here are some other faves:
Ice cream: Soy Delicious
Soy Milk: Silk
Cheese: Tofutti and Follow Your Heart
Sour Cream/Cream cheese: Tofutti
Mayo: Vegenaise
Meats: Gardenburger Riblets, Gardenburger Grilled Chicken Patties, Gimme Lean Sausage (sausage patties, buscuits and gravy) and Ground Beef, Tofurkey Beer Brats and Italian sausages, Boca breaded chicken patties
Every kind of crazy meat you can think of (the citrus spare ribs are amazing!!): http://www.vegieworld.com/index.asp?
I don't know if you're wanting to cut out dairy, but condiments make all the difference in the world. as well as little tips and tricks you'll learn yourself.
For example, some people think vegan burgers can be bland or weird tasting. But a hamburger made from Gimme Lean beef, mixed up with, oil (for authentic greasiness!), egg or substitute, onions, garlic, pan grilled (after it's browned add a bit of water and maybe some A1 then cover it for a few minutes for awesome juiciness), piled onto a bun with the above cheese, mayo, ketchup, and mustard, onions lettuce, tomato. You'll die.
I'll try to think of more!
And ironically (:D ), this is a pretty good thread:
http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99291&highlight=vegan+dottie
Emily
08-18-2008, 05:31 PM
And ironically (:D ), this is a pretty good thread:
http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99291&highlight=vegan+dottie
I think it's interesting that a year later, the same people are having the same tired debate.
Like...let it go already! Why are people so concerned with what other people choose NOT to eat?
By the way, you forgot Yves. And I've never had it, but I heard Quorn brand is good.
Dottie Rebel
08-18-2008, 06:06 PM
Yeah, complete with my rebuttal.
Regarding the argument that plants feel pain, it takes about 18 pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef, so if that's really your angle I'd think that you'd want to save all those poor plants by eating smaller amounts outright and not funneling massive amounts inefficiently through livestock.
But I do believe most people recognize that, sans developed central nervous system, plants do not feel pain.
For old times' sake. :D
Sophia_Starina
08-18-2008, 07:33 PM
I don't get it. Why go out of your way to avoid meat just to eat a sub-par veggie-version of the same meat you are avoiding? That actually goes for cheese, milk, and eggs too.
If your body craves animal protein, you aren't going to trick it with a veggie burger.
I always thought that when you go vegetarian, vegan, raw etc. it's because you don't want to eat processed foods made from an animal source. Shouldn't a first vegetarian meal be a salad...... not a plate of faux chicken?
ahmeerah
08-18-2008, 07:43 PM
^^^Werd. Seems logical to me.
ahmeerah
08-18-2008, 08:19 PM
I was vegan for the longest time because I believed it was healthier. It is healthier if your options are crappy meats from factories.
When I was vegan, I didn't like the fake meats or anything like that (except Soy Dream! and soy yogurt). I liked the taste of plants. Still do. And I don't eat tortured animals.