View Full Version : Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics
jasmine
08-18-2008, 01:57 PM
Please don't misinterpret what I've said while I'm trying to leave the thread. It's rude. I never said someone was a pervert for finding an adult woman with few curves attractive. I made a point of stating that attraction was influenced by many different factors, including face and personality.
However if someone is struck by some unknown disease that makes them appear 12yrs old for their entire life (face, skin, and body), if some man gets to know the poor woman and is attracted to the entire package (personality included), then there is nothing wrong with that, however if guys passing her on the street find her attractive, then I'm sorry, but they are fucking perverts.
I'm sick of arguing this point and am never going to think it is ok to be attracted to very young girls.
FINIS
Andygirl
08-18-2008, 02:03 PM
Please don't misinterpret what I've said while I'm trying to leave the thread. It's rude. I never said someone was a pervert for finding an adult woman with few curves attractive. I made a point of stating that attraction was influenced by many different factors, including face and personality.
No, you've just said that you think anyone who finds those gymnasts attractive is a pedophile--even though they are all at least 16, and some are 17, 18 and 20. Obviously you have personal issues that have colored your viewpoint on this, and I'm sorry for that. But it doesn't make it ok for you to generalize based on your experiences alone.
Mr Hyde
08-18-2008, 06:03 PM
Commenting on the Chinese girls is pervy. They're like, 11.
Commenting on Shawn Johnson's ass is fine. Underage means that legally you can't and shouldn't touch it...doesn't mean it's not attractive.
Dottie Rebel
08-18-2008, 06:11 PM
Obviously you have personal issues that have colored your viewpoint on this, and I'm sorry for that. But it doesn't make it ok for you to generalize based on your experiences alone.
My thoughts exactly.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 06:20 PM
If there were a clothing malfunction on one of these ladies, I bet a broadcast network or website owner could be fined or otherwise prosecuted for publishing underage nudity.
We live in a strange world. Child nudity is not illegal or else parents would be arrested time and time again for taking pictures of their kids in the bathtub and photographers like David Hamilton wouldn't be able to sell their books on amazon.com
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 06:23 PM
I agree. If they were making comments like that about 12 year olds though, then it would be fucking gross. And I think it's also kind of gross for much older guys to lust after 16 year old even if they are pretty much adults at that point. In general, people lust after that which would be most beneficial in terms of procreation. Whether you're a hot young dude or a nasty 50+ y/o, a desirable mate is a desirable mate.
It would make no sense biologically for men to be physically attracted only to older women as they mature.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 06:24 PM
^ but it makes sense socially in a civilized society.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 06:24 PM
The problem I have with this is they are little kid curves, not female curves. Hell, me and most of my classmates had more curves at 10.
There are lots of women who don't have the same curves as other women and I think it's insulting to argue that the more "curvy" you are the more "womanly" you are. Hell, I'm not very curvy myself but I still consider myself 100% woman.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 06:25 PM
^ but it makes sense socially in a civilized society.
It makes sense for men 50+ to not mate with 16 year olds, but it still makes sense to check out their butts.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 06:26 PM
^ but if you follow the train of logic that everyone is going on that it's harmless to look, then can't you logically arrive at the conclusion that young girls should be able to strip or pose nude? It IS harmful to these girls to know they are being lusted after.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 06:30 PM
NowI know everyone on here wants to be exceedingly understanding of men's vices, but I seriously don't understand how anyone can think being attracted to underage girls is ok. Especially when they not only are underage, but look excessively young as well.
Why do I think it's okay? Because you can't help attraction. Seriously, if we could choose what arouses us, where do I sign up?
However, we can control our actions and this is where I draw the line.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 06:31 PM
^ but if you follow the train of logic that everyone is going on that it's harmless to look, then can't you logically arrive at the conclusion that young girls should be able to strip or pose nude? It IS harmful to these girls to know they are being lusted after. I never said it's okay for underage girls to strip but I think it's fine for them to pose nude under certain circumstances.
How do you arrive at the conclusion that it is "harmful" for a 16-year-old girl to know she is being lusted after? I knew at 16 and I don't see how it "harmed" me.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 06:33 PM
^ I think it's pretty obvious why it would be confusing and stressful for a 16 year old girl to know that she is the object of sexual desire for much older people. Seriously. Think about it.
Read this book. It's great.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 06:37 PM
^ I don't think most guys who find underage girls sexually attractive possess the trait of decency.
Read this article:
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 06:37 PM
I'm simply stating that guys who whack-off to pics of very young underage looking girls are pervs. The kind that molest their own daughters and anyone else near them.
This is a long shot. I masturbated to a lot of whacked-up shit and I would never harm anyone. One of my closest friends is actually a man in his early 50's who has a younger-girl fetish and I know 100% that he would never hurt anyone ever. Men can masturbate to Playboy without intention to rape women and men can also masturbate to pictures of young girls without intention to rape. I hold this opinion on these premises:
1. You can't help attraction and trying to deny it and cover it up is dangerous.
2. You must find non-harmful outlets for your attractions.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 06:38 PM
^ I think it's pretty obvious why it would be confusing and stressful for a 16 year old girl to know that she is the object of sexual desire for much older people. Seriously. Think about it.
Read this book. It's great.
http://www.amazon.com/Lolita-Effect-Media-Sexualization-Young/dp/1590200632
Thanks, looks interesting.
Here is another good book:
http://www.amazon.com/Harmful-Minors-Perils-Protecting-Children/dp/1560255161/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219109863&sr=1-1
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 06:39 PM
^ your friend who is attracted to young girls is a sicko. Seriously. There's something wrong with people who aren't turned on by people in their peer group.
Dottie Rebel
08-18-2008, 06:39 PM
Wha? I realized that I was an object of sexual desire for much older men when I was 14. I wasn't stressed or confused. It was just like, "Oh, here we go..."
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 06:40 PM
^ your friend who is attracted to young girls is a sicko. Seriously. There's something wrong with people who aren't turned on by people in their peer group.
Yup, it is sick. People are sick. It's a fact of life and we have to deal with it.
lestat1
08-18-2008, 06:41 PM
Not to rehash a discussion I already had in blue, but "adult" has two main definitions, one is defined biologically through the sexual maturation process, one is defined legally. Pedophilia would be attraction to someone not yet an adult under the biological definition, acting on an attraction with someone not yet a legal adult would generally be statutory rape, regardless of their biological adulthood. Note that neither case cares about the status of the other.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 06:41 PM
Wha? I realized that I was an object of sexual desire for much older men when I was 14. I wasn't stressed or confused. It was just like, "Oh, here we go..."
hehe, me too! I thought it was interesting to have a new sort of "control" over them.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 06:41 PM
Thanks, looks interesting.
Here is another good book:
OMG. Are you serious? You're trying to compare avoiding sexualizing young girls to eliminating sex education? Really? You don't see an appropriate middle ground?
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 06:42 PM
^ your friend who is attracted to young girls is a sicko. Seriously. There's something wrong with people who aren't turned on by people in their peer group. What I find disturbing about your attitude is that it encourages people who are attracted to young girls to deny their feelings, feel ashamed, and cover it up. I guarantee that attitudes like this ENCOURAGE child molestation. When people feel comfortable acknowledging their attraction they can seek help without help and learn healthy outlets.
As much as I would like attraction to children to not exist, it DOES and we have to deal with it the best way possible.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 06:43 PM
hehe, me too! I thought it was interesting to have a new sort of "control" over them.
We shouldn't derive our power or influence over others from our sexuality. It shouldn't even occur to teenage girls, not in a society that has a healthy view of girls and treats them thusly.
AlexxaHex
08-18-2008, 06:43 PM
Please don't misinterpret what I've said while I'm trying to leave the thread. It's rude. I never said someone was a pervert for finding an adult woman with few curves attractive. I made a point of stating that attraction was influenced by many different factors, including face and personality.
However if someone is struck by some unknown disease that makes them appear 12yrs old for their entire life (face, skin, and body), if some man gets to know the poor woman and is attracted to the entire package (personality included), then there is nothing wrong with that, however if guys passing her on the street find her attractive, then I'm sorry, but they are fucking perverts.
I'm sick of arguing this point and am never going to think it is ok to be attracted to very young girls.
FINIS
If a guy gets to know the woman he's fucking, then it's okay if she has an underdeveloped body? But if he passes her on the street and wants her then he's a "child molester type"?
No one is saying they are attracted to very young girls. But I believe they are saying it's a normal, biological impulse to check someone out who appears to be of breeding age. It's very different from taking physical advantage of an innocent person who cannot give consent. I believe there are people here who are getting rightfully offended that you are saying that women have curves, and they look underage if they don't.
So now children where you are have curves too? So you think we need the government to tell us the magic age to be attracted to someone. That sounds pretty puritanical and archaic to me.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 06:43 PM
OMG. Are you serious? You're trying to compare avoiding sexualizing young girls to eliminating sex education? Really? You don't see an appropriate middle ground?
When did I say that?
The book "Harmful to Minors" covers MANY issues. And I don't necessarily agree with all the author has to say.
Dottie Rebel
08-18-2008, 06:44 PM
^ your friend who is attracted to young girls is a sicko. Seriously. There's something wrong with people who aren't turned on by people in their peer group.
So we should outlaw rape fantasy porn, milf porn, necrophilia fantasy porn, basically anything that plays with differences in age or fantasies of illegal activities or anything taboo...right?
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 06:45 PM
Not to rehash a discussion I already had in blue, but "adult" has two main definitions, one is defined biologically through the sexual maturation process, one is defined legally. Pedophilia would be attraction to someone not yet an adult under the biological definition, acting on an attraction with someone not yet a legal adult would generally be statutory rape, regardless of their biological adulthood. Note that neither case cares about the status of the other.
There is a more valid definition of adulthood: emotional maturity, which occurs later than the legal age of adulthood, and much later than the biological capacity to procreate. It has nothing to do with breasts, hips, anything. Not that guys who are attracted to children and teenagers care about the emotional state of their objects of desire.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 06:46 PM
So we should outlaw rape fantasy porn, milf porn, necrophilia fantasy porn, basically anything that plays with differences in age or fantasies of illegal activities or anything taboo...right?
I never said outlaw. Not all that is wrong is illegal, not all that is illegal is wrong. But I think there's a big difference between MILF porn or fantasy-rape and lusting after a minor.
lestat1
08-18-2008, 06:47 PM
There is a more valid definition of adulthood: emotional maturity, which occurs later than the legal age of adulthood, and much later than the biological capacity to procreate. It has nothing to do with breasts, hips, anything. Not that guys who are attracted to children and teenagers care about the emotional state of their objects of desire.
Well under that definition, my ex-girlfriend is a pedophile. :P
EDIT: Okay to not be so silly about it, do you consider sex with someone not so emotionally mature to be pedophilia still, or more like "inappropriate / questionable / etc ?"
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 06:49 PM
What I find disturbing about your attitude is that it encourages people who are attracted to young girls to deny their feelings, feel ashamed, and cover it up. I guarantee that attitudes like this ENCOURAGE child molestation. When people feel comfortable acknowledging their attraction they can seek help without help and learn healthy outlets.
As much as I would like attraction to children to not exist, it DOES and we have to deal with it the best way possible.
No, they need to seek psychological help to address their mental disorder, what caused it, and eliminate it. They don't need to whack off to the girl scout section of the JC Penny catalog and think that's a solution.
Budai
08-18-2008, 06:51 PM
We shouldn't derive our power or influence over others from our sexuality. It shouldn't even occur to teenage girls, not in a society that has a healthy view of girls and treats them thusly.
What about 18-year-old and 19-year-old exotic dancers? :-\
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 06:51 PM
No, they need to seek psychological help to address their mental disorder, what caused it, and eliminate it. They don't need to whack off to the girl scout section of the JC Penny catalog and think that's a solution.
So you think that sexual attraction to young girls can just be "eliminated" with psychological help?
I wish psychology were so advanced!
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 06:52 PM
Well under that definition, my ex-girlfriend is a pedophile. :P
EDIT: Okay to not be so silly about it, do you consider sex with someone not so emotionally mature to be pedophilia still, or more like "inappropriate / questionable / etc ?"
Like with someone of diminished mental capacity? Like a low IQ 20 year old, or someone with a major emotional disorder? Yes, I consider that abusive from someone who uses that state to coerce them or manipulate them into sex. Not pedophilia, but obviously inappropriate and abusive.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 06:53 PM
What about 18-year-old and 19-year-old exotic dancers? :-\
I started at 18, and I think most of us can agree we didn't know what we were getting ourselves into.
Dottie Rebel
08-18-2008, 06:53 PM
I never said outlaw. Not all that is wrong is illegal, not all that is illegal is wrong. But I think there's a big difference between MILF porn or fantasy-rape and lusting after a minor.
Oh, I thought we were still talking about young looking adults...18, 19, 20...That's fantasy, IMO.
Jenny
08-18-2008, 06:53 PM
Wha? I realized that I was an object of sexual desire for much older men when I was 14. I wasn't stressed or confused. It was just like, "Oh, here we go..."Stressed and confused doesn't necessarily mean "oh my, what is going on? STOP LOOKING AT ME! I'm so ashamed!" But I don't think we would need to look very far to see a bunch of women obsessed with youth-derived sexuality and think that sex - in particular the naughty girl sex - is the best thing they have to offer guys.
While it may be normal to check out someone of "breeding age", I think you guys are attributing more to nature than is necessarily correct. The shapes we fetishize now, while they can belong to adult women typically belong to younger girls, which is why we fetishize them. There is a reason it is called the "gamine look". Fetishization is not all about nature and breeding.
In this particular case, someone said earlier that the criticizer was "off her skiis" because these girls are not only mainly adults, they don't seem to have particularly dimunitive builds. To me they look like strong adults.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 06:54 PM
So you think that sexual attraction to young girls can just be "eliminated" with psychological help?
I wish psychology were so advanced!
Not necessarily, but seeking discreet help and acknowledging that you have a problem is better than trying to self-treat an obvious mental disorder.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 06:56 PM
Not necessarily, but seeking discreet help and acknowledging that you have a problem is better than trying to self-treat an obvious mental disorder.
What if you do have a therapist and do whack-off to young girls?
I fail to see how whacking off to young girls is a harmful way to deal with your attraction. I'm inclined to think that it actually PREVENTS child molestation.
Jenny
08-18-2008, 06:56 PM
What I find disturbing about your attitude is that it encourages people who are attracted to young girls to deny their feelings, feel ashamed, and cover it up. I guarantee that attitudes like this ENCOURAGE child molestation. When people feel comfortable acknowledging their attraction they can seek help without help and learn healthy outlets.
As much as I would like attraction to children to not exist, it DOES and we have to deal with it the best way possible.
There has got to something between "deny at all costs, even seeking help" and "celebrate as long as you don't physically touch a child".
Like, intuitively, I am so uncomfortable with normalizing attraction to children so that people seek help, and I cannot agree that refusing to normalize it encourages child molestation.
Dottie Rebel
08-18-2008, 06:58 PM
No one is saying they are attracted to very young girls. But I believe they are saying it's a normal, biological impulse to check someone out who appears to be of breeding age. It's very different from taking physical advantage of an innocent person who cannot give consent. I believe there are people here who are getting rightfully offended that you are saying that women have curves, and they look underage if they don't.
What she actually said was that women have "woman curves" and girls have "girl curves"--- which she pointed out is the case with the 18-20 year old gymnasts. They are women, yet have "girl curves".
Your guess is as good as mine as to what all that means.
For what it's worth, I found myself checking out a group of teenage girls at the mall the other day who couldn't be over 14-15. What? They were hot. Am I a sicko?
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 07:00 PM
There has got to something between "deny at all costs, even seeking help" and "celebrate as long as you don't physically touch a child".
Like, intuitively, I am so uncomfortable with normalizing attraction to children so that people seek help, and I cannot agree that refusing to normalize it encourages child molestation.
What I would like to see is an attitude that people who are attracted exclusively to children have a problem and that we need to be supportive. My first goal would be to eliminate the attraction. If that can't be accomplished, my second goal would be to encourage safe outlets.
What I don't like to see is people who call them various names like "perverts" and suggest they are likely child molesters. It is attitudes like these that discourage people to seek help. Many people don't realize that pedophile doesn't mean child molester.
I wouldn't go so far as to say it should be celebrated and encouraged.
In comparison, I don't think the attitude towards sexual abuse in families going from "don't talk about it EVER and cover it up" in the 50s to "let's talk and be open" in 2008 has encouraged more abuse. In fact, I think it has been beneficial.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 07:01 PM
What if you do have a therapist and do whack-off to young girls?
I fail to see how whacking off to young girls is a harmful way to deal with your attraction. I'm inclined to think that it actually PREVENTS child molestation.
So I'm thinking about it. I think if someone has these feelings they are eventually going to act out on them inappropriately, no matter what. I don't know what the solution is, I just know that there is something deeply wrong with someone who feels this way.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 07:05 PM
So I'm thinking about it. I think if someone has these feelings they are eventually going to act out on them inappropriately, no matter what. I don't know what the solution is, I just know that there is something deeply wrong with someone who feels this way.
I think you are VERY wrong that this means people WILL act on it. It is extremely common for people to be attracted to individuals without raping them. I think it may shock you to know how many men get turned on by young girls.
And yes, there is something deeply wrong with people who are exclusively attracted to children. But we have to deal with it.
Again, I think it's attitudes like you are demonstrating "they WILL eventually hurt a child" that discourage people from seeking help and contribute to the rates of child molestation.
lestat1
08-18-2008, 07:06 PM
Like with someone of diminished mental capacity? Like a low IQ 20 year old, or someone with a major emotional disorder? Yes, I consider that abusive from someone who uses that state to coerce them or manipulate them into sex. Not pedophilia, but obviously inappropriate and abusive.
I agree with that. I don't think that "major emotional disorder" describes most 16 or 17 year olds though, as annoying as they might be. lol
xdamage
08-18-2008, 07:08 PM
I disagree with the current mindset that teenagers are little children, asexual and undeveloped, until their 18th birthdays, at which point they miraculously turn into adults at the stroke of midnight. It's ridiculous.
Well that's people. They like things to be simple. On their 18th birthday a magic fairy comes down and turns them ALL into adults. It's so nice and simple. Don't make me have to use my brain and have to deal with complex things like maturity is a process that happens slowly over many years. I want to live life on auto-pilot ;)
p.s. sarcasm of course
Jenny
08-18-2008, 07:12 PM
What I would like to see is an attitude that people who are attracted exclusively to children have a problem and that we need to be supportive. My first goal would be to eliminate the attraction. If that can't be accomplished, my second goal would be to encourage safe outlets.
Well - before we start encouraging and normalizing safe outlets, I would suggest that we need some agreement from the psychologist community that a "safe outlet" acts as an outlet and not to encourage and exacerbate the problem. Like... I don't think the reason pedophiles offend is because they couldn't find a Tiger Beat to jerk off to. I said in another thread that pedophiles, by and large aren't in strip clubs - but there is no shortage of children walking around to watch, of catalogues, of teen mags. There is not a shortage of "safe outlets", and I imagine that pedophiles feel pretty discouraged to offend as it is
What I don't like to see is people who call them various names like "perverts" and suggest they are likely child molesters. It is attitudes like these that discourage people to seek help. Many people don't realize that pedophile doesn't mean child molester.
No... but doesn't it mean something pretty close to someone who is pretty likely to be a child molester? What percentage of pedophiles do you think is non-offending?
Jenny
08-18-2008, 07:15 PM
In comparison, I don't think the attitude towards sexual abuse in families going from "don't talk about it EVER and cover it up" in the 50s to "let's talk and be open" in 2008 has encouraged more abuse. In fact, I think it has been beneficial.
Oh my. I would say a significant distinguishing factor in this analysis is that one is encouraging victims to be open, confident and not blame themselves, the other is encouraging the potential offender. The offender is less likely victimize victims who are less likely to be silently vicitmized; I'm not sure you can expect a mirror result in making the offender open, confident and normalizing deviant desires.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 07:17 PM
^^^Depends how you define pedophile. I always group them as "exclusive" and "non-exlusive". The non-exlusive don't worry me so much. It's the "exclusive" group that worry me. It also depends on what attraction is considered pedophilic. Some consider it anyone under 18. I personally consider it before puberty, regardless of when that may occur.
If we went with men who are aroused (exlusively or not) by prepubescent girls, I would confidently say that less than 5% abuse children.
If we consider the "exclusive" group only, I would guess it is very high but I have no way of knowing exactly how high it is.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 07:19 PM
Oh my. I would say a significant distinguishing factor in this analysis is that one is encouraging victims to be open, confident and not blame themselves, the other is encouraging the potential offender. The offender is less likely victimize victims who are less likely to be silently vicitmized; I'm not sure you can expect a mirror result in making the offender open, confident and normalizing deviant desires.
I agree with you on all points except when you say "the other is encouraging the potential offender".
If you don't like my comparison to sexual abuse within the family, then let's compare it to another mental problem. Suicide.
Do you think that encouraging people to talk about suicide and tell people when they have suicidal feelings is encouraging the suicide to take place?