View Full Version : Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics
Jenny
08-18-2008, 07:19 PM
I think you are VERY wrong that this means people WILL act on it. It is extremely common for people to be attracted to individuals without raping them. I think it may shock you to know how many men get turned on by young girls.
And yes, there is something deeply wrong with people who are exclusively attracted to children. But we have to deal with it.
Again, I think it's attitudes like you are demonstrating "they WILL eventually hurt a child" that discourage people from seeking help and contribute to the rates of child molestation.I think you might be leaving out the commonly attributed reasons for pedophilia. As you pointed out - it is an illness, not just an attraction and people with illnesses are not renowned for strong self control. Particularly when (to be grossly simple) there is some understanding that pedophiles experience this attraction as a result of severe power issues. I agree seeking help is a good step - but I think you are making the condition far more benign than it really is.
Jenny
08-18-2008, 07:23 PM
I agree with you on all points except when you say "the other is encouraging the potential offender".
If you don't like my comparison to sexual abuse within the family, then let's compare it to another mental problem. Suicide.
Do you think that encouraging people to talk about suicide and tell people when they have suicidal feelings is encouraging the suicide to take place?
I mean it was encouraging the offender to be open and confident.
I'm not a psychologist, but I think it would depend on the kind of suicidal ideation that is at issue - that is a bit of a wider net. But there is still a big difference in encouraging people with suicidal thoughts to seek psychological help and normalizing suicide. Come on. Didn't you see Heathers?
Like I doubt you would be comfortable seeing a Nambla meeting in a local mall, with a bunch of guys pointing at young buys and commenting on them on the premise "Oh, they are just acting out in a safe outlet".
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 07:24 PM
I think you might be leaving out the commonly attributed reasons for pedophilia. As you pointed out - it is an illness, not just an attraction and people with illnesses are not renowned for strong self control. Particularly when (to be grossly simple) there is some understanding that pedophiles experience this attraction as a result of severe power issues. I agree seeking help is a good step - but I think you are making the condition far more benign than it really is. I expanded on this more above: If you are talking about exclusive pedophiles (people who are attracted to children and cannot help normal adult relationships) then I would agree I am making the condition out to be far more benign than it actually is. HOWEVER I believe there is a huge number of men who are on occassion attracted to very young girls, make jack off to the fantasy, ect. but are still able to have normal and healthy relationships with adult women. I know a lot of men like this and they don't worry me much.
As a comparison, we could say that women who have the rape fantasy have a mental problem, ect. I would argue that if the woman is aroused exclusively by the idea of rape, it is a big and disturbing problem. However, if she has the occasional rape fantasy and still enjoys vanilla sex then it really isn't that big a deal.
Bob Cox
08-18-2008, 07:25 PM
My mother was 16 years old and my dad was 18 years old when they got married in 1960. A majority of young people were married by the time they were 20 years old back then. My mother's friend was married at 17 and her boyfriend was 18.
My sister was pregnant at 15 years old, had the baby at 16, and married her boyfriend when she was 17 and he was 18.
As far as the gymnasts are concerned, yes, they have some great asses and legs. They are very attractive to look at but are too young for any guy older than 2 or 3 years older than them. The older they get, the wider the age gap can be.
xdamage
08-18-2008, 07:29 PM
Interesting site - the worldwide age of consent -
http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 07:29 PM
I mean it was encouraging the offender to be open and confident.
I'm not a psychologist, but I think it would depend on the kind of suicidal ideation that is at issue - that is a bit of a wider net. But there is still a big difference in encouraging people with suicidal thoughts to seek psychological help and normalizing suicide. Come on. I agree with this and I think the same can be said about pedophilia. In order for people to seek psychological help, there has to be a point at which they are comfortable doing so. I don't think that saying "let's talk about attraction to young girls. It's a problem we as society have to deal with" is comparable to "it's totally normal and okay to be attracted to young girls, let's celebrate and have pride parades!"
Didn't you see Heathers? I don't know what this is.
Like I doubt you would be comfortable seeing a Nambla meeting in a local mall, with a bunch of guys pointing at young buys and commenting on them on the premise "Oh, they are just acting out in a safe outlet". AFAIK NAMBLA actually encourages the legalization of sex with children and pride in their "orientation" as though it were comparable to homosexuality. I don't support this at all.
I guess I'm just looking for a happy medium between pride and shame. I'm speaking about all mental disorders when I say it's ridiculous to take pride in them, but to shame is unecessary and a recipe for bad things to happen.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 07:30 PM
My mother was 16 years old and my dad was 18 years old when they got married in 1960. A majority of young people were married by the time they were 20 years old back then. My mother's friend was married at 17 and her boyfriend was 18.
My sister was pregnant at 15 years old, had the baby at 16, and married her boyfriend when she was 17 and he was 18.
As far as the gymnasts are concerned, yes, they have some great asses and legs. They are very attractive to look at but are too young for any guy older than 2 or 3 years older than them. The older they get, the wider the age gap can be.
I totally agree with you on the point that it is normal for teenagers to be sexual beings within their peer group.
I also agree with you that these girls are too young for anyone outside their peer group.
I think the issue we're debating is that wildly older men, men who are old enough to be in positions of power and respect over these girls (teachers, coaches, doctors, etc) find someone like Shawn Johnson sexually arousing and if it's normal and it's effects o these girls.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 07:32 PM
Well that's people. They like things to be simple. On their 18th birthday a magic fairy comes down and turns them ALL into adults. It's so nice and simple. Don't make me have to use my brain and have to deal with complex things like maturity is a process that happens slowly over many years. I want to live life on auto-pilot ;)
p.s. sarcasm of course
It's an arbitrary age, but the laws have to draw the line somewhere, and I think the age where people graduate from high school and go to college or get real jobs and are expected to act like adults is a pretty good line.
xdamage
08-18-2008, 07:34 PM
Just out of curiosity, who here doesn't have sexual fantasies about things they would never necessarily do, but nevertheless run through their minds at times?
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone may apply here.
xdamage
08-18-2008, 07:37 PM
It's an arbitrary age, but the laws have to draw the line somewhere, and I think the age where people graduate from high school and go to college or get real jobs and are expected to act like adults is a pretty good line.
Right, I agree. But still I linked this -
http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm
Because the arbitrary age world wide varies quite a bit, and 18 is on the high side of the curve.
But yes, legally we need an arbitrary age. But morally, we can still realize that 18 is actually on the far side of the curve and much of the world views a younger age of consent as normal.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 07:37 PM
Just out of curiosity, who here doesn't have sexual fantasies about things they would never necessarily do, but nevertheless run through their minds at times?
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone may apply here.
There's a difference between fantasizing about three dicks in you at once and committing a crime.
Pedophilia is a pervasive mental disorder, not a random thought in an otherwise mentally healthy individual.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 07:38 PM
Just out of curiosity, who here doesn't have sexual fantasies about things they would never necessarily do, but nevertheless run through their minds at times?
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone may apply here. If I acted out all my fantasies, Canada would probable reinstate the death penalty just for me. :judge:
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 07:38 PM
Right, I agree. But still I linked this -
Because the arbitrary age world wide varies quite a bit, and 18 is on the high side of the curve.
But yes, legally we need an arbitrary age. But morally, we can still realize that 18 is actually on the far side of the curve and much of the world views a younger age of consent as normal.
Look at the chart. The more developed the country is, generally the consent of age is higher.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 07:39 PM
There's a difference between fantasizing about three dicks in you at once and committing a crime.
Pedophilia is a pervasive mental disorder, not a random thought in an otherwise mentally healthy individual.
I've fantasized about doing non-consensual stuff. I'm probably a little twisted but harmless nonetheless.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 07:40 PM
Look at the chart. The more developed the country is, generally the consent of age is higher. I'm also willing to bet that the more developed a country is, the greater the instance of child sexual abuse.
Contrary to popular belief, child abuse doesn't happen just among the lower class and undeveloped country. It's rampant in the upper class and developed countries.
Jenny
08-18-2008, 07:41 PM
Oh my god. We totally have to derail this thread to talk about Heathers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathers
I did know that about NAMBLA - I just couldn't think of another pro-pedophile group. I don't know - I think shame has a valuable part to play in the suppression of child molestation. Do I want people to be too ashamed to tell a qualified therapist? No. Do I want them to be too ashamed to openly discuss an 11 year old gymnast's butt? Yes. I think you can encourage quite a lot of shame before over reaching the shame-therapy limit.
Again - keep in mind that offenders do not have a lack of masturbatory material, nor indeed, do they generally avoid masturbating to it. Whatever shame they might feel - they "outlet" regardless.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 07:41 PM
^ Whereas you, a normal (I think) individual, may have fleeting fantasies, pedophiles generally can't stop thinking about it and are not satisfied, not even acting out their fantasies.
xdamage
08-18-2008, 07:42 PM
Look at the chart. The more developed the country is, generally the consent of age is higher.
Yep, very astute observation :) Interesting isn't it?
There are lots of theories why including just a basic one that people in more developed countries are likely to live longer. But an evolutionary biologist would say we are "wired" (literally) to be sexually attracted at puberty. Thus society teaches one thing, but people's innate drives tell them something else. In a sense then, advanced societies are a new thing (relatively speaking) and may hide people's "true nature" far more then simpler ones where their multi-million year old genes are alive and well and expressed.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 07:43 PM
^ Whereas you, a normal (I think) individual, may have fleeting fantasies, pedophiles generally can't stop thinking about it and are not satisfied, not even acting out their fantasies. I think you are assuming too much and your generalizations about pedophilia are inaccurate.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 07:43 PM
I'm also willing to bet that the more developed a country is, the greater the instance of child sexual abuse.
Contrary to popular belief, child abuse doesn't happen just among the lower class and undeveloped country. It's rampant in the upper class and developed countries.
It may be rampant in our country, but it's socially accepted and even institutionalized in others.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 07:43 PM
I think you are assuming too much and your generalizations about pedophilia are inaccurate.
Why are you standing up for child molesters?
Jenny
08-18-2008, 07:45 PM
Why are you standing up for child molesters?I think she is interested in accuracy. I'm kind of squicked out too, but there is no reason to be threatened by it.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 07:46 PM
I did know that about NAMBLA - I just couldn't think of another pro-pedophile group. I don't know - I think shame has a valuable part to play in the suppression of child molestation. Do I want people to be too ashamed to tell a qualified therapist? No. Do I want them to be too ashamed to openly discuss an 11 year old gymnast's butt? Yes. I think you can encourage quite a lot of shame before over reaching the shame-therapy limit. I think we can distinguish between talking openly about an 11-year-olds butt in a way that encourages it versus a way that is open and healthy. Compare:
"I wanted to talk with you in confidence about something. I was at the swimming pool yesterday and I couldn't help but get aroused by some very young girls. I find this disturbing. What do you think I should do?
versus
"OMG, this 11-year-old has a hot ass, check it out!"
I'd like our society to get to the point where my first example is acceptable.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 07:46 PM
I think you are assuming too much and your generalizations about pedophilia are inaccurate.
One of the symptoms of pedophilia...
"Over a period of at least six months, the affected person experiences recurrent, intense and sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or actual behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children aged 13 or younger."
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 07:46 PM
I'm off to read the Wikipedia article!
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 07:47 PM
One of the symptoms of pedophilia...
"Over a period of at least six months, the affected person experiences recurrent, intense and sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or actual behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children aged 13 or younger."
http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Pedophilia.html Sure, I'll agree with that. Doesn't change my opinions.
xdamage
08-18-2008, 07:48 PM
^ Whereas you, a normal (I think) individual, may have fleeting fantasies, pedophiles generally can't stop thinking about it and are not satisfied, not even acting out their fantasies.
I worry far more about those who have sexual fantasies about people who have not reached puberty then I do about the later. The later can be a problem due to the fact that people do become wiser as they age, and therefore more able to manipulate someone much younger, but I find it far less freaky if all it is is just harmless fantasy. If they act on it I am concerned of course.
Now fantasizing about pre-pubescent children I agree is abnormal and we need to protect children.
And I do understand that just as people don't become adults magically at 18, they don't magically become fully ready to consent at some other magic age either. It is a gray scale of preparedness, and some at 18 are also not ready. But we could never write laws to cover all of that.
Still, there is a lot of evidence that people being sexually turned on by post pubescent people is "normal" and wired into our multi hundred year old genes. I can only get so freaked about that.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 07:48 PM
Why are you standing up for child molesters?
You obviously haven't absorbed what I have written.
Read up on the difference between pedophiles and child molesters. There is a difference. I am supportive of people who have mental disorders and need help. I am not supportive of abusing children.
Jenny
08-18-2008, 07:54 PM
"I wanted to talk with you in confidence about something. I was at the swimming pool yesterday and I couldn't help but get aroused by some very young girls. I find this disturbing. What do you think I should do?
versus
"OMG, this 11-year-old has a hot ass, check it out!"
I'd like our society to get to the point where my first example is acceptable.
Huh. This is hard to call insofar as at that level it is hard to distinguish "society" from individual relationships. Like that is not something I could hear and still be intimate (in a friendly way) with a person. Other people who have not led my particular life might be able to - there is some overlap in that situation.
As well - I'm not sure... like, you can't, on a social, or rather societal level control the content of people's conversations. So what we're discussing is a certain amount of normalization; of course we couple this with the fact that children and children's bodies are, in fact, sexualized, that the sexualization of children is already normal, and we compensate socially by elevating our disgust at crossing the thin line.... and I think you could be a little optimistic. Of course nobody has mentioned that we have fetishized extreme youth to the point that we have rationalizations like "Well some women look like that; it could be normal" and that maybe a sensible thing to do would be to, you know, stop that. Failing that, however, I don't know that I'm ready to give up shame yet.
xdamage
08-18-2008, 07:55 PM
You obviously haven't absorbed what I have written.
Read up on the difference between pedophiles and child molesters. There is a difference. I am supportive of people who have mental disorders and need help. I am not supportive of abusing children.
I think what you are trying to say, and it is not getting through I guess, is that when it comes to mental illness, either inherited at birth, or something that happens later in life, people don't have full control over themselves any more then they have the ability to stop cancer cells spreading through their body and leaving them in agony and unable to function as normally as someone who does not.
It is hard because people want a simple rule. Like People are 100% responsible for everything they do. It is hard when it comes to illnesses that tip the scales and make it fuzzy. When it comes to mental illness, as hard as it is to accept, the common belief among professionals is that it should be treated, and because it does effect the brain, we can't completely hold them accountable. Exactly how much? Hard to say.
The idea is simple. We can stop their bad behavior while at the same time, still having some compassion for their condition. They aren't mutually exclusive.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 08:03 PM
Huh. This is hard to call insofar as at that level it is hard to distinguish "society" from individual relationships. Like that is not something I could hear and still be intimate (in a friendly way) with a person. Other people who have not led my particular life might be able to - there is some overlap in that situation. Understood. There are individual relationships in which such comments would be acceptable. I guess my point is that I believe that the vast majority of people have not a single person in their life in whom they could confide a sexual attraction to children.
As well - I'm not sure... like, you can't, on a social, or rather societal level control the content of people's conversations. No we can't, but there is a lot about society that influences individual relationships. I think, for starters, the ignorance of the difference between a pedophile and a child molester is dangerous. This is encouraged in society as I hear things such as "He is a convicted pedophile and serving 10 years." He is not going to jail because he gets a hard-on when he sees kids in bikinis. He is going to jail because he molested a child. Therefore, they should say "he is a convicted pedophile."
So what we're discussing is a certain amount of normalization; I'm not quite sure I understand your use of the word "normalization." Do you consider the change in attitude towards family sexual abuse to be a "normalization"?
Jenny
08-18-2008, 08:16 PM
No we can't, but there is a lot about society that influences individual relationships. I think, for starters, the ignorance of the difference between a pedophile and a child molester is dangerous. This is encouraged in society as I hear things such as "He is a convicted pedophile and serving 10 years." He is not going to jail because he gets a hard-on when he sees kids in bikinis. He is going to jail because he molested a child.
Fair enough. The difference between real crime and thought crime is important, especially in contentious issues.
I'm not quite sure I understand your use of the word "normalization." Do you consider the change in attitude towards family sexual abuse to be a "normalization"?
No, but I don't think we were trying to normalize it. Like I said - raising the confidence and knowledge of the victims is not the same as raising the confidence and knowledge of the offender (or potential offender). Like victims weren't being shamed so that we would discourage them from being victims, you know? We opened that discussion to strengthen the victim.
When I say "normalization" I mean because you can't really mandate the content of conversations on a societal level, what you are doing at a societal level is making it okay to talk about and discuss; I think I have a different idea of what will be done with that than you do.
As well - speaking of comparing discussion of family sexual abuse and pedophilia - I would hesitate to tell a child "it's normal and okay for him to look at you that way - it's just because he's sick; it's only bad to touch" wouldn't you?
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 08:17 PM
You obviously haven't absorbed what I have written.
Read up on the difference between pedophiles and child molesters. There is a difference. I am supportive of people who have mental disorders and need help. I am not supportive of abusing children.
What percentage of pedophiles have never acted out in any way that harmed a child?
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 08:27 PM
When I say "normalization" I mean because you can't really mandate the content of conversations on a societal level, what you are doing at a societal level is making it okay to talk about and discuss; I think I have a different idea of what will be done with that than you do.
As well - speaking of comparing discussion of family sexual abuse and pedophilia - I would hesitate to tell a child "it's normal and okay for him to look at you that way - it's just because he's sick; it's only bad to touch" wouldn't you?
I don't want our society to get to the point where pedophilia can be discussed casually. If that is what you mean by normalization, I think that is dangerous. If by normalization you mean accepting the fact that many people are attracted to children and this is a matter that needs to be addressed, then I agree with "normalization."
When I dealt with mental illness myself, it wasn't hard for me to distinguish between casual and harmful conversation (OMG I just tried these new diet pills and they are awesome!) and open and difficult conversation that was more a cry for help (I don't know why but I think I'm fat and I'm taking diet pills. I don't know what to do about this).
If a child is in any way aware that a person is sexually attracted to him, then I think he must be doing something wrong. At no time would I ever support an adult making their sexual attractions to a child known to that child.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 08:28 PM
What percentage of pedophiles have never acted out in any way that harmed a child? I already posted my answer to this question. Read up on where I posted about the difference between exclusive and non-exclusive pedophiles.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 08:30 PM
Maybe I will be flamed for this but pedophiles and child molesters BOTH have mental disorders. They can NOT be cured.
They are attracted to children the way we are attracted to the opposite sex, or same sex for that matter. No amount of therapy is going to "cure" these people into NOT finding children arousing.
I respect your opinion. I personally don't believe the issue has been researched fully for anyone to know the answer, but I'm not going to flame you.
I think it's safe to say that at this point, psychologists have no cure to pedophilia. That is not to say that with more research, one might be found. This is why I actively promote safe outlets. It's not an ideal situation, but I believe it's the best we have at the moment.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 08:34 PM
I already posted my answer to this question. Read up on where I posted about the difference between exclusive and non-exclusive pedophiles.
"Pedophilia is also a psychosexual disorder in which the fantasy or actual act of engaging in sexual activity with prepubertal children is the preferred or exclusive means of achieving sexual excitement and gratification. It may be directed toward children of the same sex or children of the other sex. Some pedophiles are attracted to both boys and girls. Some are attracted only to children, while others are attracted to adults as well as to children."
I don't think it makes a difference between exclusive and non exclusive. That is so silly to think that someone who fantasizes sexually about children is somehow less sick or potentially harmful if they are also attracted to people who are age-appropriate to them.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 08:37 PM
Maybe I will be flamed for this but pedophiles and child molesters BOTH have mental disorders. They can NOT be cured.
They are attracted to children the way we are attracted to the opposite sex, or same sex for that matter. No amount of therapy is going to "cure" these people into NOT finding children arousing.
I kind of agree with you, but psychological treatment and "rehabilitation" is the only viable option, other than locking all the convicted ones up for life in an already overburdened prison system. What else can we do?
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 08:38 PM
^^^Actually there is a huge difference.
It is a lot more healthy for a man to have a wife, a good marriage with her, and occasionally get a hard-on to a kid than for a man who can't date women and can only get it up when thinking about kids.
In a previous post, I compared it to the typical female fantasy of rape. If a woman has healthy, vanilla sex and occasionally fantasizes about being raped, I think it's a little quirky but I don't see a big problem. However, if she fantasizes about rape exclusively and cannot engage in sex that does not in some way imitate rape, then she has a huge problem.
I don't mean to come across as rude at all, but I find that your postings demonstrate ignorance in regards to pedophilia and I find that you are not reading all the postings and this makes is frustrating to discuss with you. I don't mean that to offend but rather to explain the slant I'm taking with my posts.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 08:39 PM
I kind of agree with you, but psychological treatment and "rehabilitation" is the only viable option, other than locking all the convicted ones up for life in an already overburdened prison system. What else can we do?
Research.
xdamage
08-18-2008, 08:40 PM
Maybe I will be flamed for this but pedophiles and child molesters BOTH have mental disorders. They can NOT be cured.
They are attracted to children the way we are attracted to the opposite sex, or same sex for that matter. No amount of therapy is going to "cure" these people into NOT finding children arousing.
Actually I worked with many mentally ill people that were never cured and every time the bleeding hearts let them out, they committed the same crimes again (e.g., rape, pedophilia, assault).
Someone confused compassionate treatment with treating these people as if they are normal and can self regulate.
We don't yet have a cure for a lot of these problems, so if it is a choice of putting children at risk or the pedophile, I vote the pedophile needs supervision for life, or until we find a true cure. It can be done compassionately and we should search for a cure but we also do need to realize that yes, like you said, professionals don't have a cure yet.
Let me put it like this... if more professionals were held liable for letting a mentally ill person out on the streets, far fewer would "gamble" with the lives of others. But right now it's all too easy to confuse compassion with ego (i.e., the professional wanting to believe that they are doing a "good" deed or have cured the person).
OTOH it's hard because none of us would want to never be given another chance in life.
Sometimes you can't win.
Jenny
08-18-2008, 08:42 PM
I don't want our society to get to the point where pedophilia can be discussed casually. If that is what you mean by normalization, I think that is dangerous. If by normalization you mean accepting the fact that many people are attracted to children and this is a matter that needs to be addressed, then I agree with "normalization." I'm not sure we don't do that already. I mean we definitely know about pedophiles, consider it a serious issue and want to address it as a society. I'm not sure that I think pedophilia should be treated as benign as an eating disorder, if that is what you are suggesting.
And again - before advocating "safe outlets" I think we would need to establish a little more conclusively that these outlets are "safe". We all know that nobody - pedophile or not - molests and rapes as a result of sheer horniness. Nobody is like "dammit, I didn't jerk off today - guess I'll have to commit a rape" whether they are a child or adult rapist. Although - as I said, there is also no lack of outlets that exist for offenders.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 08:44 PM
I find it offensive that someone would actually want to stand up for these people who have it in them to do things to children that will haunt them for the rest of their lives and affect them in ways one can never imagine unless it's happened to you.
Just because a guy is married doesn't mean he isn't going to act out his fantasies.
Someone having a problem with wanted to be sexually dominated is harmless is comparison to wanting to be the dominant one.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 08:45 PM
We don't yet have a cure for a lot of these problems, so if it is a choice of putting children at risk or the pedophile, I vote the pedophile needs supervision for life, or until we find a true cure.
Again, let's not confuse pedophile with child molester/rapist.
If we are talking about someone who actually raped a child, I have very little compassion and I don't really care what we do as long as children are protected.
If we are talking about someone who struggles with attraction to children and has never touched a child, I can't agree. No one would seek help if they knew that talking to a psychologist would land them under supervision for life.
If we start locking up every guy who checks out a 12-year-olds butt, we need to start putting up prisons at every street corner.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 08:46 PM
I find it offensive that someone would actually want to stand up for these people who have it in them to do things to children that will haunt them for the rest of their lives and affect them in ways one can never imagine unless it's happened to you.
Just because a guy is married doesn't mean he isn't going to act out his fantasies.
Someone having a problem with wanted to be sexually dominated is harmless is comparison to wanting to be the dominant one. There are lots and lots of pedophiles out there who would never dream in a million years of hurting a child. It seems the only ones you have been exposed to are the ones that make the news.
ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 08:48 PM
I still don't get why you have put it upon yourself to stand up for people who are sexually attracted to children, whether they act out on it or not.
Jenny
08-18-2008, 08:48 PM
I find it offensive that someone would actually want to stand up for these people who have it in them to do things to children that will haunt them for the rest of their lives and affect them in ways one can never imagine unless it's happened to you.
Just because a guy is married doesn't mean he isn't going to act out his fantasies.
I think she is postulating that it is less likely. And again, she is not standing up for them. She is discussing management tactics. I get that it is unpalatable, but it's not like she has a pedophile straining on the end of a leash threatening you - you can relax and read the thread.
Someone having a problem with wanted to be sexually dominated is harmless is comparison to wanting to be the dominant one.
Wanting to be dominant in sex is not the same as wanting to rape someone. Same as with women - wanting to engage in role play is not the same as really wanting to do it. I think she is drawing the comparisons as a way of explaining the nature of the disorder - not arguing that the disorders are the same or equally bad.
NewMoon
08-18-2008, 08:48 PM
And again - before advocating "safe outlets" I think we would need to establish a little more conclusively that these outlets are "safe". We all know that nobody - pedophile or not - molests and rapes as a result of sheer horniness. Nobody is like "dammit, I didn't jerk off today - guess I'll have to commit a rape" whether they are a child or adult rapist. Although - as I said, there is also no lack of outlets that exist for offenders.
I agree with you. It shocks me when people say things like "pedophilia can't be cured" not because I disagree but because we know very little about this disorder.
The reason I promote "safe outlets" is from anectdotal information. I don't want to get into how but I have talked with dozens of men who are attracted to children and the vast majority have told me that they would never dream of harming a child and that "safe outlets" are their way of coping with the attraction.